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Topic ClosedContribution of the "primitives" to progress

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2011 at 04:36
Specially if they had curare and hit you at the bottom...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2011 at 09:47
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:



http://quazen.com/arts/visual-arts/cubism-modernizing-the-art-of-africa/

Cubist artists were heavily influenced by African sculpture. However, Cubist works make significant departures from each of the African sculptures they are reputedly derived from, and as Robert Goldwater has observed, these differences are at least as significant as the parallels. To cite one of his examples, the Kota figure’s symmetry and frontality imbue it with a static quality that is entirely antithetical to the movement and energy of the dancer in Picasso’s Nude with Raised Arms.

So, it is not the same, but it is impossible to complete "de-Africanize" cubism, calling it some abstract idea created by Picasso from empty air.





Do you understand English? "Influence" is not the same as "copy". The fellows who invented flight was heavily influenced by birds - maybe the Airbus 380 was actually developed by condors? An African sculpture is not a piece of cubism, no matter how much you parrot, ergo they didn't "invent" cubism.  


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2011 at 11:40
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

No it wasn't and you have not one shred of any kind of evidence to show that it was. The best you can do is come up with an odd photograph or two (not even a painting) that freakily look alike. As if what it looks like is the issue.


Painting? Cubism in Africa was done on sculptures; not painting.
Cubism wasn't done in  Africa at all. It was only done in sculpture fairly late in the day in Europe, after the principles were all worked out in painting. You'll find if you dig hard enough the that the Cubist sculptor Jacques Lipchitz indeed did later on get interested in African art, which shows in some of his work. But that's because he merged African influences with his Cubist background. The African input came well after he became a Cubist.
 
The wikipedia article on Lipchitz incidentally doesn't even mention Africa. My comments are based on Janson's monumental history of world art.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


Americans, Chinese, Indians, Scandinavians, Greeks and Arabs, among others, did not invent Cubism. But they can all think.


Europeans didn't either. They copied it from Africans.

http://quazen.com/arts/visual-arts/cubism-modernizing-the-art-of-africa/

Cubist artists were heavily influenced by African sculpture. However, Cubist works make significant departures from each of the African sculptures they are reputedly derived from, and as Robert Goldwater has observed, these differences are at least as significant as the parallels. To cite one of his examples, the Kota figure’s symmetry and frontality imbue it with a static quality that is entirely antithetical to the movement and energy of the dancer in Picasso’s Nude with Raised Arms.

So, it is not the same, but it is impossible to complete "de-Africanize" cubism, calling it some abstract idea created by Picasso from empty air.
[/QUOTE]
It wasn't created by Picasso out of thin air. It follows from a path easily followed through the classics via Cezanne to the early 20th century.
 
Moroever the quote you have above emphasises that the claims that Cubism is derived from Africa are merely 'reputed' and in fact differ in major ways from the African precedents. Except fr the 'black history' devotees there really is nothing whatsoever in common between African art (which is subjective, magico-religious and an attempt to portray supernatural figures) and Cubism (which is cerebral, objective and concerned only with geometrcial form).


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2011 at 14:03
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Do you understand English? "Influence" is not the same as "copy". The fellows who invented flight was heavily influenced by birds - maybe the Airbus 380 was actually developed by condors? An African sculpture is not a piece of cubism, no matter how much you parrot, ergo they didn't "invent" cubism. 


Certainly I understand. I know that not long ago teachers in Europe were teaching that Bacon invented gunpowder, that Guttenberg invented printing, and that Firestone (or was Goodyear) invented vulcanizing... Confused It is amazing how many times Europeans appropiate inventions of others and call them theirs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2011 at 14:19
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Do you understand English? "Influence" is not the same as "copy". The fellows who invented flight was heavily influenced by birds - maybe the Airbus 380 was actually developed by condors? An African sculpture is not a piece of cubism, no matter how much you parrot, ergo they didn't "invent" cubism. 


Certainly I understand. I know that not long ago teachers in Europe were teaching that Bacon invented gunpowder, that Guttenberg invented printing, and that Firestone (or was Goodyear) invented vulcanizing... Confused It is amazing how many times Europeans appropiate inventions of others and call them theirs.
Gutenberg invented the printing press, and independently block printing. Which is still taught, since it's correct. Goodyear did discover vulcanization, so I don't see the problem there either. But from someone claiming that "Africans" invented cubism, I can imagine you fantasize about something similar in these cases too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2011 at 14:20
More balderdash driven by a skewered agenda. No one ever "taught" the above...well maybe in Chile, but then this place represented the uttermost part of Terra Cognita for so long that only quacks dared venture there and among them there were probably a few who claimed to be "teachers".
 
If you need further doses of medication...type some more myths and outlandish assertions.


Edited by drgonzaga - 17 May 2011 at 14:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2011 at 15:04
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:


Gutenberg invented the printing press, and independently block printing. Which is still taught, since it's correct.


Nope. It isn't correct. Printing was invented in Korea, and block printing was known in the Middle AGes. What Guttemberg invented was the lead mobile type.

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:


Goodyear did discover vulcanization, so I don't see the problem there either.


Curing rubber is pre-Columbian, and also, Bacon didn't invent gunpowder.

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:


 But from someone claiming that "Africans" invented cubism, I can imagine you fantasize about something similar in these cases too.


Surely, there is an interesting case of appropiation in here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2011 at 15:06
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


If you need further doses of medication...type some more myths and outlandish assertions.


Indeed. It is all about myths. Historical myths that die hard. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2011 at 15:09
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Except fr the 'black history' devotees there really is nothing whatsoever in common between African art (which is subjective, magico-religious and an attempt to portray supernatural figures) and Cubism (which is cerebral, objective and concerned only with geometrcial form).


That's childish. It is like to say Blues and Jazz aren't influenced from African rythms and melodies, but an evolution from Beethoven's music Confused


Edited by pinguin - 17 May 2011 at 15:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2011 at 16:18
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Except fr the 'black history' devotees there really is nothing whatsoever in common between African art (which is subjective, magico-religious and an attempt to portray supernatural figures) and Cubism (which is cerebral, objective and concerned only with geometrcial form).


That's childish. It is like to say Blues and Jazz aren't influenced from African rythms and melodies, but an evolution from Beethoven's music Confused
 
It's not like that at all. Still I'd like to see you substantiate the allegation that the blues were influenced by African rhythms. (I'll give you the melodic influence.) I mean of course the oriinal field blues or even the early urban blues, not the amplified stuff that passes for blues nowadays and has very little to do with Africa (except some Africans have copied it). Jazz is a different matter and too complex to get into here, or just to swap soundbites about.
 
Still, the idea that Monk's Round Midnight (as oppsoed to Monk himself) has an African origin is somewhat amousing.
 
You do realise that so far you haven't given one agument why Cubism can be said to have developed in Africa or from African art, except a fortuitous resemblance in the photogarphs (not the reality) of two pieces of art, one a ritualistic object and the other not.


Edited by gcle2003 - 17 May 2011 at 16:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2011 at 17:11
The resemblance is not fortuitous. Picasso itself said he got inspired (copied) African art.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2011 at 20:39
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

The resemblance is not fortuitous. Picasso itself said he got inspired (copied) African art.
But NOT in developing Cubism. We're not talking about the entire body of Picasso's work the vast majority of which isn't Cubist at all, we're talking about the work of the Cubist movement.
 
You don't seem to have the foggiest idea of what Cubism was, let alone what it developed from.
 
Wikipedia isn't far off when it dates the period when Picasso was influenced by African art (known as his 'Africann period') from 1907-1909. But that was BEFORE he and Braque developed Cubism, and had nothing to do with that development. His Cubist period starts after that in 1910, and stops again around 1919 (though he occasionally produced Cubist pieces during the rest of his life - he is known for going back to earlier styles at various times of his career.
 
A key work here is the rather difficult to place 'Demoiselles d'Avignon', which is sometimes said to be African-influenced, sometimes partially African, sometimes not and sometimes to be early Cubism and sometimes not. My own view is that is not actually Cubist, and that the reason it is difficult to classify is that Picasso was at a point where, the blue and pink periods behind him, he didn't really know where he was going next.
 
So there was a short period where Picasso did look at and admire African art, but to claim that it led to Cubism is ridiculous. In fact I think the attention that is currently paid to the 'African period' is overdone anyway, and has been inserted mainly as a sop to please African-American art historians. It's a pretty recent development.
 
Incidentally the reason why the resemblance you showed is fortuitous is because were the items photoagraphed from different angles, the resemblance would go away.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 17 May 2011 at 20:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2011 at 21:01
Perhaps if the some of the photos of the paintings were turned upside down they would look more similar? chuckle

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2011 at 21:20
But I forced myself to stay, to examine these masks, all these objects that people had created with a sacred, magical purpose, to serve as intermediaries between them and the unknown, hostile forces surrounding them, attempting in that way to overcome their fears by giving them colour and form. And then I understood what painting really meant. It's not an aesthetic process; it's a form of magic that interposes itself between us and the hostile universe, a means of seizing power by imposing a form on our terrors as well as on our desires. The day I understood that, I had found my path

Pablo Picasso.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2011 at 11:42
So? Where in all that does it mention Cubism?
 
You continually come up with these irrelevant posts. No-one denies or has denied that Picasso spent time with African art exhibits. I seem to remember a late '40s exhibition of Picasso's, the first time I ever saw a Picasso painting for real, dominated by pictures of owls that, in retrospect anyway, probably had a great deal of African influence. But they weren't Cubist.
 
Picasso's genius lies in his effortless stretching out to encompass all sorts of influences during his life. But unlike most of his famous contemporaries you cannot associate him with only one style, or even precisely attribute one of his styles to a specific set of causes.
 
You're talking about probably the most stylistically varied artist in all of history.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2011 at 11:48
Why am I surprised to find that all this recent stuff about African influence on Picasso stems from the program notes of a recent exhibition (2006) put on expressly in Johannesburg?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2011 at 14:21
Anyways, I preffer Dali.

But it is amazing the reaction of the African influences on Picasso.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2011 at 14:26
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:



But it is amazing the reaction of the African influences on Picasso.

The reaction is to your nonsensical arguments. The action is more amazing, as in "difficult to understand". 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2011 at 01:54
Nonsensical? It makes a lot of sense if you think about it. Of course, for that you must think about it. If you can think about it, of course.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2011 at 03:39
Another case: the conquest of the poles. Without Inuit technology, the Europeans wouldn't have reached the poles. Scot tried to reach the South Pole with horses... and died tragically with all his expedition.
Amudsen, a smarter fellow, used the clothes, dogs and slides of Inuits, and made it.











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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2011 at 06:08
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Another case: the conquest of the poles. Without Inuit technology, the Europeans wouldn't have reached the poles. 

Sure they would... just much later Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2011 at 15:42
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Another case: the conquest of the poles. Without Inuit technology, the Europeans wouldn't have reached the poles. 

Sure they would... just much later Tongue
 
Besides the abuse of what is meant by the "technological", this contention is ludricrous on its face. If you want to "reach" the poles, fly over them as did Admiral Byrd!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2011 at 20:09
Technique, technology or tools if you preffer. Anyways, being yourself a literature man, I bet you, like Platon and other abstract thinkers, don't understand a bit about technological stuff.

Flying there wasn't the idea, Dr. Strangelove.




Edited by pinguin - 20 May 2011 at 20:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2011 at 23:49
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Technique, technology or tools if you preffer. Anyways, being yourself a literature man, I bet you, like Platon and other abstract thinkers, don't understand a bit about technological stuff.

Flying there wasn't the idea, Dr. Strangelove.
 
Getting from Point A to Point B is not an "idea" but an action. Further the attempt with respect to the geographic poles was fancy, not necessity, and one totally irrelevant to any discussion of technology. Stanley "found" Livingston, who was not even lost, does such make him an "explorer"? By the way, dogs as draft animals is hardly unique to the Inuit! Your tangents, as usual and to be expected, are quite "flightless".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2011 at 23:58
I bet you would have chosen Scot expedition.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2011 at 05:50
Marvellous "primitive" tech:


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2011 at 19:29
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I bet you would have chosen Scot expedition.
 
Hardly, given the fact that the urge to "reach" the poles was little more than pompous theatre (akin to contemporary fancy over a slick program titled Survivors) meant to entertain bored Edwardians. Leave such nonsense to the chit-chatter of another 19th century fancy among "gentlemen", the explorer's clubs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2011 at 19:40
Ho hum...another piece on fractured history as if "boomerangs" were unique to contemporary Aborigines. Take a look at 18th dynasty Egyptian murals and witness a hunt for ducks along the Nile with a rather strangely fashioned "throwing stick".
 
Anyway, just read and be informed:
 
 
The bottom line: Aboriginal Australians did not "invent" the boomerang and archeology has made sure of that!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2011 at 20:08
Egyptians had throwing sticks, not boomerangs.

In any case, your cheap tactic to destroy Aborigin merit backfire. Google more, please.




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2011 at 20:14
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


Hardly, given the fact that the urge to "reach" the poles was little more than pompous theatre (akin to contemporary fancy over a slick program titled Survivors) meant to entertain bored Edwardians. Leave such nonsense to the chit-chatter of another 19th century fancy among "gentlemen", the explorer's clubs.


Irrelevant and nonsense commentary.

No matter the intention or the "pompous theatre", the fact remain that Amudsen find the technology he needed to reach the poles from the Inuits. Even more, Amudsen had lived with the Inuits, so it is no wonder he succeed.

http://libweb5.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/northwest-passage/amundsen.htm

After exploring the barren island (they found the memorials in good order), scavenging through the old Franklin depot, and completing their magnetic observations, they departed on the 24th, sailing and motoring down Peel Sound and Franklin Strait, past the eastern side of King William Island, through Rae Strait, to the safety of a small harbor on the island's southeastern corner that they christened “Gjöahavn” [today's Gjöa Haven]. It was the middle of September. They had survived a fire in the engine room and a grounding on a submerged reef, and had depended on dead reckoning due to the compass's fluctuations around the magnetic pole. Amundsen decided to winter there to concentrate on magnetic work.

For almost two years, Gjöa Haven was their home .Thoroughly interacting with the local Inuit and adopting their clothing, Amundsen's party participated in dog sledding and seal hunting activities in the winter and kayaking and net fishing during the summer—in addition to fulfilling their scientific tasks. A major sledge trip was undertaken in the spring of 1905 by second mate Helmer Hansen and first engineer and meteorologist Peder Ristvedt to the eastern coast of Victoria Island along the remaining uncharted region. They reached their furthest point north, which they named Cape Nansen, on May 26; a month later they were back at the ship, having covered 800 miles. Gjöa and its crew finally departed from Gjöa Haven on 13 August 1905.


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