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Contribution of the "primitives" to progress

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2011 at 02:12
There is no need to "propose something" since correct terminology is already at hand: USE IT!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2011 at 02:35
Correct math models are also in use since archimedes... Preach with the example and USE IT!

Now, again, with respect to the terminology invented by your colleagues, what do you preffer: primitives, barbarians, backwards, savages, analphabets, pristines, nomadics, inferiors, uncivilized, ignorants, poors, throglodites, rustics, ... or what? As you know, there are full libraries plenty of books that use those terms. Terms I don't want to use!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2011 at 05:24
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You still don't get it, do you?

The problem is not lack of definitions from dictionaries, in the legal style, which are yours only skill. Nope, the problem is that you lack knowledge about physical and mathematical models. Lawyers will never understand the universe.

By the way, progress is a myth. I am expert in A.I., for instance, and, believe me, there is no Hal 9000 comming.
There were two rather famous Astronomers Royal (certainly experts they) in the mid-20th century who went down to history as saying the idea of space travel was bilge. Expertise and reliable prophecy don't always go hand-in-hand.
 
You're wrong about whether there is an artificial intelligence coming that will be capable of doing what HAL did, though of course it won't be called HAL and it may not be recognisable as a computer.
 
And it won't run Windows, though it could.
 
cf wikipedia or somewhere for Richard Woolley and Harold Spencer Jones.
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And also, it is a dangerous myth, because makes people believe there are certain humans superior to others, and certain societies smarter or "more dynamic" than others.
On any individual yardstick certain individuals are indeed superior to others, partly because of their genetic endowment, partly because of their subsequent experience. To deny that is insane.
 
That people with superior genetic capabilities should have more rights under the law is the danger. To argue that people with superior postnatal experience (e.g. greater education in specific subjects) is in many ways acceptable - for instance it would be idiotic to argue as you appear to be doing that any person educated or not should have equal rights to treat and prescribe for the sick. 
 
The only part of that that has any relevance to this topic is that referring to post-experience. It is concerned with the contribution made not with the inherent capacity to make contributions. I've no doubt that many 'primitive' tribesmen would have made excellent doctors of medicine, but only if they had qualified in a modern recognised medical teaching institution.
 
So stay off the racism stuff. This is not a racist argument and don't make it one.


Edited by gcle2003 - 29 May 2011 at 05:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2011 at 09:53
Sir, no matter what Wooley and Spencer Jones have said, or Lord Kelvin, too, some things become reality when there is a framework for building it. In fact, at the same time of those guys, Tsiolkovsky had show space travel was feasible, at least in theory. And he shown all the formulae of how to do it. The only problem with that was technical. It is not the case of A.I. today.

The problem with A.I. is that there is not a theoretical model of how to build an artificial intelligence. Nothing at all. For instance, today there are theoretical models for teleportation and wrap speed spaceships in the Star Trek style. So, those machine maybe build in the far future. Nothing similar exist in A.I. Today nobody has a clue about HOW to build an A.I. The fact is the prophecy of the singularity, and the idea that "A.I. is just five years further in the future" is something the academic world don't believe in it very much. In fact, A.I. is the area of knowledge that has lost prestige faster. And it has descredited precisely because wild predictions are common there. Sorry, but don't expect a possitronic robot brain for the next decade.

And, indeed, there are individuals with certain skills superior to others. For instance, running faster, singing better, or painting pretier. But that doesn't make them "superior" individuals as a whole. Just to check biographies of genious would convince you that many of them were simply ill people. So, just a skill more or less, most people is about the same, either if is poor or rich, academic or analphabet, genious or worker. Doubting that is the root of many social ideologies that has caused so much pain.

With respect to tribesmen as doctors in medicine, of course they could made it through our educational systems if given the chance. But you shouldn't forget that they also discovered many things in the wild, by themselves. The pharmacy is full of remedies that were discovered i
nitially in tribes, from aspirine (Greeks) to curare and quinine. Even more, techniques to quite bleeding, to repair fractures, to "fix" bones, and many others were developed in the "wild". For example, for a ong time experts believed that trepanation in Peru were done for religious reasons... No, that was not the reason. It was to save the life of warriors that received maces on the head! War physicians of the time tried to save these soldiers by making a hole in the head, and believe it or not, they save many lives... And they didn't study in any university at all.

Another case, remember what was found with Otzi, the frozen tribal man in the Alps, who died 5.000 years ago? The guy has some fungus, that he eat for its antibacterial properties.




Edited by pinguin - 29 May 2011 at 10:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2011 at 22:08
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Sir, no matter what Wooley and Spencer Jones have said, or Lord Kelvin, too, some things become reality when there is a framework for building it. In fact, at the same time of those guys, Tsiolkovsky had show space travel was feasible, at least in theory. And he shown all the formulae of how to do it. The only problem with that was technical. It is not the case of A.I. today.

The problem with A.I. is that there is not a theoretical model of how to build an artificial intelligence. Nothing at all.
I disagree. We have biological neural networks as a theoretical model, even if equally complex artifical networks haven't been technically achievable, especially for determining non-linear solutions.
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For instance, today there are theoretical models for teleportation and wrap speed spaceships in the Star Trek style. So, those machine maybe build in the far future. Nothing similar exist in A.I. Today nobody has a clue about HOW to build an A.I. The fact is the prophecy of the singularity, and the idea that "A.I. is just five years further in the future" is something the academic world don't believe in it very much. In fact, A.I. is the area of knowledge that has lost prestige faster. And it has descredited precisely because wild predictions are common there. Sorry, but don't expect a possitronic robot brain for the next decade.
Well, I'd agree about the next decade. But you said never. And there's no reason for it to be 'positronic' - that's just an iknvention of Asimov's.
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And, indeed, there are individuals with certain skills superior to others. For instance, running faster, singing better, or painting pretier. But that doesn't make them "superior" individuals as a whole. Just to check biographies of genious would convince you that many of them were simply ill people. So, just a skill more or less, most people is about the same, either if is poor or rich, academic or analphabet, genious or worker. Doubting that is the root of many social ideologies that has caused so much pain.
You're refusing to face reality. What you say is merely true of the distribution of prenatal (genetic) influences. Different societies have widely different levels of post-natal experience, which makes their members in general superior/inferior to members of other societies in relevant and imprtant areas.
 
It's post-natal (at least, post-conception) experience for instance that makes life expectancy in modern societies so miuch greater than in earlier (and therefore more 'primitive') ones.   
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With respect to tribesmen as doctors in medicine, of course they could made it through our educational systems if given the chance. But you shouldn't forget that they also discovered many things in the wild, by themselves. The pharmacy is full of remedies that were discovered i
nitially in tribes, from aspirine (Greeks) to curare and quinine. Even more, techniques to quite bleeding, to repair fractures, to "fix" bones, and many others were developed in the "wild". For example, for a ong time experts believed that trepanation in Peru were done for religious reasons... No, that was not the reason. It was to save the life of warriors that received maces on the head! War physicians of the time tried to save these soldiers by making a hole in the head, and believe it or not, they save many lives... And they didn't study in any university at all.
And, as is blatantly obvious, they were on the whole nowhere near as good at their jobs as modern doctors. You're beginning to sound like Carcharodon.
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Another case, remember what was found with Otzi, the frozen tribal man in the Alps, who died 5.000 years ago? The guy has some fungus, that he eat for its antibacterial properties.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2011 at 03:05
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I disagree. We have biological neural networks as a theoretical model, even if equally complex artifical networks haven't been technically achievable, especially for determining non-linear solutions.
...
Well, I'd agree about the next decade. But you said never. And there's no reason for it to be 'positronic' - that's just an iknvention of Asimov's.


Have you seen how primitive are the neural networks models? Do you know they only have 2 or 3 layers of "neurons"? Do you know the problems of convergency they have and how long it takes for the human trainer to teach them and "tune" them? Do you know how different is symbolic A.I.? Not much.

Again. The idea of A.I. in the next decade is deceiving. It won't happens. There is no theory today that explain how the brain works, how it program itself, how it addapts so easily, how concience is generated. Or course, there are hundreds of gurues, or medical witches, who are trying to convince us otherwise, but they lie.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


You're refusing to face reality. What you say is merely true of the distribution of prenatal (genetic) influences. Different societies have widely different levels of post-natal experience, which makes their members in general superior/inferior to members of other societies in relevant and imprtant areas.


Inferiors and superiors, once again? Nope, I don't believe in genetical superiority. I don't believe in social superiority either. For instance, some countries that proclaim societies like "superior" or "model" societies are falling down in this very same moment, with families destroyed and heading to extinction. 

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


 And, as is blatantly obvious, they were on the whole nowhere near as good at their jobs as modern doctors. You're beginning to sound like Carcharodon.


Nobody denies the wonders of modern medicine. Thanks to these smart guys, families get broken every time a tough illness hit some member of the family. Thanks to them, if your brain is destroyed they will keep your body alive for years, extracting resources from family and the state, to pay the bills. Thanks to them and theirs wonderful vaccines, people in Africa and India duplicate theirs number every 20 years. Thanks to them, people that suffer horrible accidents, that mutilate them forever, survive for 40 years. Of course, thanks to the industrialized medicine of hospitals, sometimes they cut the wrong leg to the patient Confused, or leave the patient worst that at the start; but those are minor problems in comparison to the benefits.

Yes, against modern doctors the witch medicine doctors can't compite.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2011 at 07:15
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I disagree. We have biological neural networks as a theoretical model, even if equally complex artifical networks haven't been technically achievable, especially for determining non-linear solutions.
...
Well, I'd agree about the next decade. But you said never. And there's no reason for it to be 'positronic' - that's just an iknvention of Asimov's.


Have you seen how primitive are the neural networks models?
You have it wrong. The network models aren't primitive. The implemented networks have up to now (at least in my experience) been primitive. I worked with them quite a bit.
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 Do you know they only have 2 or 3 layers of "neurons"?
Again you're mixing up the implemented networks with the theoretical model. There's no theoretical limit to the number of layers, only a practical one. Just like spaceflight in the 'forties..
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 Do you know the problems of convergency they have and how long it takes for the human trainer to teach them and "tune" them?
Again. those are practical problems not theoretical ones. Do you know how long it takes to teach a child to speak? Or even walk? They still get there in the end.
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 Do you know how different is symbolic A.I.? Not much.
I actually discussed this with Herb Simon in Pittsburgh just after he won the Nobel.
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Again. The idea of A.I. in the next decade is deceiving. It won't happens. There is no theory today that explain how the brain works, how it program itself, how it addapts so easily, how concience is generated. Or course, there are hundreds of gurues, or medical witches, who are trying to convince us otherwise, but they lie.
That's a personal opinion. Much the same as Woolley's opinion about space flight.
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Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


You're refusing to face reality. What you say is merely true of the distribution of prenatal (genetic) influences. Different societies have widely different levels of post-natal experience, which makes their members in general superior/inferior to members of other societies in relevant and imprtant areas.


Inferiors and superiors, once again? Nope, I don't believe in genetical superiority.
Clarify what you mean by genetic superiority. Then what you're saying might be understandable.
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 I don't believe in social superiority either. For instance, some countries that proclaim societies like "superior" or "model" societies are falling down in this very same moment, with families destroyed and heading to extinction. 
Quite obviously there are people who get things wrong, notably people who think their own people should have superior privileges to anyone else. However your dismissal of the fact that some societies have longer life expectancies than others is ideological nonsense.
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Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


 And, as is blatantly obvious, they were on the whole nowhere near as good at their jobs as modern doctors. You're beginning to sound like Carcharodon.


Nobody denies the wonders of modern medicine. Thanks to these smart guys, families get broken every time a tough illness hit some member of the family.
You're raving. Absolutely raving. From this point on all you say is raving.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2011 at 10:48
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

You have it wrong. The network models aren't primitive. The implemented networks have up to now (at least in my experience) been primitive. I worked with them quite a bit.


They are primitive if you compare them to natural neural networks, of course.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


Again you're mixing up the implemented networks with the theoretical model. There's no theoretical limit to the number of layers, only a practical one. Just like spaceflight in the 'forties..


The theory is too infantile to explain natural networks flexibility. I know that classes of neural nets exists since the 40s, when the brain was compared with a telephonic switching network. Today we compare the brain to a computer or to a formal neural network Confused. But the brain is billions of times more complex than those gadgets. Those ideas are too childish to explain the complexity of the brain.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


Again. those are practical problems not theoretical ones. Do you know how long it takes to teach a child to speak? Or even walk? They still get there in the end.


Practical problems? That's what I would call excess of confidence. Then, no wonder that A.I. deceived its fans decade after decade. Come on, in the 50s was predicted that A.I. was going to be developed "in the next few years". It didn't happen then, and won't happen it now.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I actually discussed this with Herb Simon in Pittsburgh just after he won the Nobel.


I bet he didn't get the Nobel for its works in A.I.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

That's a personal opinion. Much the same as Woolley's opinion about space flight.


Certainly. But people is 60 years waiting for the Comming of A.I., with the same passion that some wait for the second comming of Jesus.... and nothing happens.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


Quite obviously there are people who get things wrong, notably people who think their own people should have superior privileges to anyone else. However your dismissal of the fact that some societies have longer life expectancies than others is ideological nonsense.


Life expectancy was a measure of development decades ago.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

You're raving. Absolutely raving. From this point on all you say is raving.


Sir, doctors are nothing more than health professionals. Nothing special. I remember the day when I have to get my son to the doctor because an alergic reaction. The stupid physician didn't have a clue about what was going on. He was going to start the string of exams!
I insulted him and order him to put my son the anti-alergic vaccine. If I didn't do that, I could have lost my son!

Modern doctors? Ha!






Edited by pinguin - 30 May 2011 at 10:49
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Sir, doctors are nothing more than health professionals. Nothing special. I remember the day when I have to get my son to the doctor because an alergic reaction. The stupid physician didn't have a clue about what was going on. He was going to start the string of exams!
I insulted him and order him to put my son the anti-alergic vaccine. If I didn't do that, I could have lost my son!
Vaccines work preemptively and wouldn't help against an ongoing reaction. Do you possibly mean adrenalin or anti-histamins? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2011 at 21:19
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


 Different societies have widely different levels of post-natal experience, which makes their members in general superior/inferior to members of other societies in relevant and imprtant areas.
 
Then we first have to define what is relevant and important. There are for example societies whos members have less technological or scientific skill than for example members in our own western society, but who are superior in social relations and in creating a psychologically healthy environment.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 00:20
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

...
Vaccines work preemptively and wouldn't help against an ongoing reaction. Do you possibly mean adrenalin or anti-histamins? 


I didn't mean vaccine, but some anti-alergic substance that is injected in emergencies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 00:22
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Then we first have to define what is relevant and important. There are for example societies whos members have less technological or scientific skill than for example members in our own western society, but who are superior in social relations and in creating a psychologically healthy environment.
 


Of course. Noble Savages are. Wink
But seriously, at least in the Americas, some tribes had quite interesting and humanitarian relations. However, you cannot generalize from those few that all the rest had the same lifestyle, because it wasn't that way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 00:53
I said that "there are for example societies", it does not neccesarly mean all tribal peoples, but some of them indeed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 02:01
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


 Different societies have widely different levels of post-natal experience, which makes their members in general superior/inferior to members of other societies in relevant and important areas.
 
Then we first have to define what is relevant and important. There are for example societies whos members have less technological or scientific skill than for example members in our own western society, but who are superior in social relations and in creating a psychologically healthy environment.
 
One can not believe the capacity for tautological tripe ever readily put on display on these incoherent threads. "Creating psychologically healthy environment" sounds like a promo clip from some Silicon Valley employment pamphlet put out by the Personnel Department! We all know what a mess of things Margaret Mead made of Samoans with her Pacific idylls, but such did not stop future "others" from repeating such inverted portrayals not for illustrating the society observed but as phony criticisms of their own societies. The pandering of pseudoutopic pomposities as editorialization on contemporary exigencies is not only dishonest but also entirely irrelevant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 02:10

Actually there are studies of so called tribal peoples that suggest that at least some of them live in societies where human relations are creating healthy psychological environments and where those relations also have given rise to peacefulness and a high degree of equality.

 

Just study the books by Margaret Shostak or Lasse Berg concerning San peoples in Southern Africa.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 02:41
I bet those schollars got inspired in the movie "The Gods must be crazy"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 03:17
There you go again, Carcharadon (pace Reagan). Your constant name-dropping absent referential substance is more than annoying. Cite a specific reference from the literature you assign to Berg! Is it a bit taken from any of the following?
 
Gryning over Kalahari: hur manniskan blev manniska 
Dawn over the Kalahari: how man became man
 
Twilight song of the Kalahari
 
When Sweden discovered Africa
 
Or do you have any other fantastic voyage in mind? The man is a journalists and a film maker and his books are publicity pieces and hardly what one would classify as serious studies!


Edited by drgonzaga - 31 May 2011 at 03:19
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PS: Margaret Shostak, geez!
 
 
Perhaps you would like to tell me all about her now dated book: Nisa: The Life and Works of a !Kung Woman. New York: Random House, 1981. [there is a 2006 reprint all fancied up for current PC pleasures].
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 04:26
Carcha doesn't believe tribal peoples were humans but saints.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 21:21
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

There you go again, Carcharadon (pace Reagan). Your constant name-dropping absent referential substance is more than annoying. Cite a specific reference from the literature you assign to Berg! Is it a bit taken from any of the following?
 
Gryning over Kalahari: hur manniskan blev manniska 
Dawn over the Kalahari: how man became man
 
Twilight song of the Kalahari
 
When Sweden discovered Africa
 
Or do you have any other fantastic voyage in mind? The man is a journalists and a film maker and his books are publicity pieces and hardly what one would classify as serious studies!
 
Well, he lived among San peoples for about five years and made his own observations and he has also interviewd anthropologists and studied the relevant anthropological literature concerning these peoples so he has aquired a quite thorough knowledge and understanding of the lifeways of them. Can you say the same about yourself?
 
I have also had the fortune to attend to a couple of public lectures made by him and of course seen him being interviewd on TV on some occations.
 
And about Marjorie Shostak she also lived among the people she writes about in her books  Nisa, the life and words of a !Kung woman. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press (1981) and Return to Nisa. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press (2000).
 
It is obviously very easy for you to sit behind a desk and dismiss those people who actually go out in the field and study things and people in place.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I bet those schollars got inspired in the movie "The Gods must be crazy"
 
You do not have to be a saint to be able to organise your social relations in a more fulfilling and phsycologically healthier way than many of the rather unfriendly ways we have managed to produce in our own civilisation.


Edited by Carcharodon - 31 May 2011 at 21:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 23:28
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Well, he lived among San peoples for about five years and made his own observations and he has also interviewd anthropologists and studied the relevant anthropological literature concerning these peoples so he has aquired a quite thorough knowledge and understanding of the lifeways of them. Can you say the same about yourself?
You can say the same about Margaret Mead. Doesn't mean what she wrote is reliable or beyond controvrsy. In fact given her views on Christiaity and yours I assume you probably wouoldn't have much respect for her.
 
 
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You do not have to be a saint to be able to organise your social relations in a more fulfilling and phsycologically healthier way than many of the rather unfriendly ways we have managed to produce in our own civilisation.
How about the many splendid examples of self-sacrifice and co-operation for the common good that can be pointed to in our society?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2011 at 00:40
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 How about the many splendid examples of self-sacrifice and co-operation for the common good that can be pointed to in our society?
 
Well, that is well and good, but we shall not forget that stress and psychological problems are too common for our society to be called a really healthy one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2011 at 01:05
What makes you think psychological problems are any worse now than at any other time? That we may diagnose them more often reflects well on our society not badly.
 
The problems of ageing are of course more abundant in the modern world - like Alzheimer's for instance, or senile dementia in general - but that's because we live longer not because of flaws in society.
 
Similarly problems arising from drug use are possibly wider now than earlier, because the drugs available are more varied. But primitives, where drugs were available, took to them and got hooked just as quickly as modern man. (That's true of many animals, mammals and birds included, let alone people.) 
 
Ötzi wasn't only carrying what may have been ritual fungus, he was also killed deliberately in what may well have been an armed struggle. Neither points to his society as being some kind of peaceful paradise.
 
What with Tollund Man and Juanita the eivdence for primitive societies having been peaceful seems pretty slim.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2011 at 01:10
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

What makes you think psychological problems are any worse now than at any other time? That we may diagnose them more often reflects well on our society not badly.
 
Is it so hard to imagine that certain ways of living, ways that do not always correspond well with our inherited mental needs also could cause mental problems?
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

What with Tollund Man and Juanita the eivdence for primitive societies having been peaceful seems pretty slim. 
 
Noone said all so called primitive societies was peaceful, one has to judge from case to case and from time to time. But still the fact remains that some of the worlds most peaceful socities are among those peoples we label tribal, primitive, band societies and similar.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2011 at 02:02
I wonder who those primitive societies are and I also wonder how they handle cases like infidelity, moods of anger, and how they treat their own outcasts. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2011 at 02:05
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

I wonder who those primitive societies are and I also wonder how they handle cases like infidelity, moods of anger, and how they treat their own outcasts. 


Tribal peoples have a huge variety of behavoirs, customs and traditions. Some are poligamous, other monogamous, some are canibbals, other vegetarians, some are violent other relatively peaceful, some take care of the elders, others abandon them on the snow. That's the problem with the topic. You can't generalize!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2011 at 02:06
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

What makes you think psychological problems are any worse now than at any other time? That we may diagnose them more often reflects well on our society not badly.
 
Is it so hard to imagine that certain ways of living, ways that do not always correspond well with our inherited mental needs also could cause mental problems?
Not difficult at all. In fact it's bloody obvious. That's why it's pointless saying it. From the point of view of this thread it is true of every conceivable society, so it's an irrlevancy.
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Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

What with Tollund Man and Juanita the eivdence for primitive societies having been peaceful seems pretty slim. 
 
Noone said all so called primitive societies was peaceful, one has to judge from case to case and from time to time. But still the fact remains that some of the worlds most peaceful socities are among those peoples we label tribal, primitive, band societies and similar.
 
Some primitive societis are/were probably relatively peaceful, though probabyl not as many as you think. Some modern societies are also relatively peaceful. So again the point is irrelevant.
 
However it is undoubteldy true there are billions more peaceful people in the world today than there were 5,000 years ago (or when gangs of people were shooting each other in the Alps).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2011 at 02:06
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

I wonder who those primitive societies are and I also wonder how they handle cases like infidelity, moods of anger, and how they treat their own outcasts. 
 
That will ofcource vary depending which people you talk about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2011 at 02:09
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Some primitive societis are/were probably relatively peaceful, though probabyl not as many as you think. Some modern societies are also relatively peaceful. So again the point is irrelevant.
 
Not irrelevant at all since the strategies used by certain peoples to avoid conflicts also can teach us something. Also strategies to maintain phsycological health can be of use for us to study.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2011 at 02:10
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
That will ofcource vary depending which people you talk about.


But you speak like every group were the same. What a simple mind!
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