| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Criminal History
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Criminal History

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
es_bih View Drop Down
Council Member
Council Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6381
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 02:49
Closed for 24 hours
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
es_bih View Drop Down
Council Member
Council Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6381
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2010 at 19:46
Thread has been opened up, and went through an early spring cleaning. 
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2010 at 22:12
Perhaps all of us should ask ourselves is there really such a subset in History that can be labeled as "criminal" (other than bad writing, of course)?
 
One may prepare biographies of sociopaths and psychopaths properly documented from written records, but other than the havoc these indivduals play upon their victims, do they really affect the flow of major narration and narrative? In the social and cultural history of 19th century London is "Jack the Ripper" content for anything other than a footnote? There is quite a difference between medical and criminal records (or factual compilations) and History as social and/or cultural analysis.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
Scourge View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2010 at 00:15
I've been waiting two weeks to respond to you drgonzaga. Though yeah they are what you would call "mere" footnotes according to the bigger picture but analyzing of the smaller picture can help a lot also.
Back to Top
King John View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1782
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2010 at 01:21
My area of interest and research is legal history but looking at criminal(s) (history) really doesn't further an historical narrative unless it is studied in a light that reflects its impact on a given society.  For instance, I have researched mutilation and other afflictive punishment(s) in Anglo-Saxon and Anglo-Norman England with an eye to the political ramifications of such punishments; a study of just afflictive punishments or the people who underwent those punishments does nothing to further the historical narrative.  The same is true of studying people like Bundy et al.  Studying Bundy for behavior and psychology is beneficial to police work it is meaningless to the historical narrative.
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2010 at 05:51
Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

I've been waiting two weeks to respond to you drgonzaga. Though yeah they are what you would call "mere" footnotes according to the bigger picture but analyzing of the smaller picture can help a lot also.
 
We are treating History as historians and not engaging in either psychological analysis or generating data for profiling criminals and their behaviours. Criminal minds are rather predictable in a way given the actual fact that the pathological is rather repetitive with the sole exception being the window-dressing chosen by these artless mannequins. There is no "smaller picture" in a rap sheet nor does criminal activity give insight into a society as a whole no matter the Officer Krupke jabber of "I'm depraved 'cause I'm deprived"! If you're fascinated by the capacity for evil in the human psyche perhaps then perhaps you are in need of therapy or just frequent too many weekend matinees at the local cinema.


Edited by drgonzaga - 19 Feb 2010 at 05:51
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
Scourge View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2010 at 05:08
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

My area of interest and research is legal history but looking at criminal(s) (history) really doesn't further an historical narrative unless it is studied in a light that reflects its impact on a given society.  For instance, I have researched mutilation and other afflictive punishment(s) in Anglo-Saxon and Anglo-Norman England with an eye to the political ramifications of such punishments; a study of just afflictive punishments or the people who underwent those punishments does nothing to further the historical narrative.  The same is true of studying people like Bundy et al.  Studying Bundy for behavior and psychology is beneficial to police work it is meaningless to the historical narrative.


That isn't true criminology and police history is extremely important to history. Thats like saying oh thats military history nothing to do with the world. Prepare to get disproved John.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Peel#Police_reform

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_Street_Runners

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positivism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Police_Service

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Department

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_determinism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_establishment_of_the_Roman_Empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_army_unit_types



All of these disprove that criminal history is history. So you guys are wrong. Sir Robert Peel, The bow street runners, The NYPD, The Metropolitan police station. ALL HISTORY!


Edited by Scourge - 20 Feb 2010 at 05:15
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2010 at 11:52
The point being made was that the story of notorious criminals isn't of any great use in history. I said myself that a lot of social history can be gleaned from the history of low level crime, but it's the common placedness of the crime that makes it interesting. As I think I quoted before, in Montaillou Ladurie created a comprehensive picture of a medieval society, working solely from the records oc Church trials.
 
Social history is in many ways indissoluble from crime and its definition: legality and illegality are different sides of the same coin. The organisation of police forces is part of the development of social structures. And so on.
 
However, none of this has anything to do with your claim that studying people like egregious criminals like Bundy is of importance. Such people have no effect on history whatsoever. 
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
King John View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1782
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2010 at 17:35
What does studying the Zodiac Killer and Ted Bundy tell us about the historical narrative?  What's so important about them in history that they require being studied?  Just because something or somebody is infamous or famous doesn't mean that that thing or person should be studied.  As I have said I have studied legal history with a focus on crime and punishment in a political context.  Sources for these studies are the mundane crimes not the infamous/famous crimes and criminals (with a few exceptions ie Eadric Stroena).  I have more to say about this but lack the time to say it.  I will be on later.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2010 at 19:55
I think on reflection there is some place for studying the lives of some of the leading figures in organised crime: the US, Italy, China, Japan spring immediately to mind. But that is because the development of organised crime in those societies is a sociological matter of importance, and the lives of major figures may throw some light on it.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Scourge View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2010 at 22:52
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

What does studying the Zodiac Killer and Ted Bundy tell us about the historical narrative?  What's so important about them in history that they require being studied?  Just because something or somebody is infamous or famous doesn't mean that that thing or person should be studied.


Yes it does; mostly all I study is serial killers, serial killing in general, forenics, police work, police interviewing, touch dna, victims and how they react to getting raped and beaten. This is all I study, this is all I read about. That is it and it is important to me cause its interesting sh*t.
Back to Top
Dolphin View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Teaman to the Society of Dilettanti

Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Location: Lindalino
Status: Offline
Points: 2766
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 10:38
Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

My area of interest and research is legal history but looking at criminal(s) (history) really doesn't further an historical narrative unless it is studied in a light that reflects its impact on a given society.  For instance, I have researched mutilation and other afflictive punishment(s) in Anglo-Saxon and Anglo-Norman England with an eye to the political ramifications of such punishments; a study of just afflictive punishments or the people who underwent those punishments does nothing to further the historical narrative.  The same is true of studying people like Bundy et al.  Studying Bundy for behavior and psychology is beneficial to police work it is meaningless to the historical narrative.


That isn't true criminology and police history is extremely important to history. Thats like saying oh thats military history nothing to do with the world. Prepare to get disproved John.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Peel#Police_reform

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_Street_Runners

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positivism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Police_Service

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Department

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_determinism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_establishment_of_the_Roman_Empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_army_unit_types



All of these disprove that criminal history is history. So you guys are wrong. Sir Robert Peel, The bow street runners, The NYPD, The Metropolitan police station. ALL HISTORY!
 
 
You just got WIKI'ed!!! Raspect!
 
Back to Top
Scourge View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 143
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 15:56
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

My area of interest and research is legal history but looking at criminal(s) (history) really doesn't further an historical narrative unless it is studied in a light that reflects its impact on a given society.  For instance, I have researched mutilation and other afflictive punishment(s) in Anglo-Saxon and Anglo-Norman England with an eye to the political ramifications of such punishments; a study of just afflictive punishments or the people who underwent those punishments does nothing to further the historical narrative.  The same is true of studying people like Bundy et al.  Studying Bundy for behavior and psychology is beneficial to police work it is meaningless to the historical narrative.


That isn't true criminology and police history is extremely important to history. Thats like saying oh thats military history nothing to do with the world. Prepare to get disproved John.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Peel#Police_reform

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_Street_Runners

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positivism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Police_Service

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Department

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_determinism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_establishment_of_the_Roman_Empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_army_unit_types



All of these disprove that criminal history is history. So you guys are wrong. Sir Robert Peel, The bow street runners, The NYPD, The Metropolitan police station. ALL HISTORY!
 
 
You just got WIKI'ed!!! Raspect!
 


Exactly and nice using the "raspect!" joke from that Ali G character, lmao.
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 16:58
Should it not be "razzpect"?
 
As for making "history" Sir Robert Peel (1788-1850), or as more popularly known among democratic circles, "Orange" Peel, did not make his name as criminologist much less a policeman, for goodness sakes he was a politician and prior to his ministry had served as Home Secretary (1822-1827, 1828-1830), where his over-riding principle was policing the riff-raff to their place. We will not even mention the real reasons for his establishing the Royal Irish Constabulary during his tenure as Chief Secretary for Ireland (1812-1818).
 
How about some chuckles over the NYPD and the "Paddy" Wagons...and to be fair to others we can always discuss Fouche and the France of Revolution and Empire.
 
In the immortal words of Dirty Harry..."C'mon punk. Make my day!"
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Online
Points: 4805
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2014 at 14:45
Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

Anybody interesting in this type of reading? Like about Jesse James or Jack the ripper or Ted Bundy and the list goes on forever. They may be the criminals but in a hundred years these names will all still be remembered for their crimes.
 
The problem is that the media, TV in particular is likely to iconise these people, portray them as some sort of heroes battling the establishment for the good of the common man.
 
Don't we already see this revisionism in the electronic media?
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.