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Date of the Trojan War |
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truthsetsfree 
Earl 
Joined: 30 May 2014 Location: bad New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 255 |
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 Topic: Date of the Trojan WarPosted: 11 Mar 2021 at 15:50 |
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Is there any way to pinpoint the date of the Trojan War in ancient sources? Below I have collated a list of all relevant dating information from ancient and modern sources that I know of or could find.
The date of the Trojan war ranges in sources from 1484 to 677 bc. 2317 bc minus 833 [= 1484], 1334 (Douris), 1291 (Eretes), 1280/1275/1260-1180 (modern), 1250 (Herodotus), 1229 (Thallus, Theoph., Stephanos), 1212 (Dicaearchus), time of Samson 1561 minus 351 [= 1210 or] 1192/1191-1189/1187 (Jerome), 1209/1208 (Parian), 1194-1184/1183 (Eratosthenes), 1193 (Timaeus), 2335 + 722 yrs before 1868 ad [= 1189 bc] (Schliemann), 1185/1184, 1st war 1181 (Eusebius, Hoeh), 1172 (Sosibius), during the last yrs or a few yrs before the end of Pygmalion's reign in 1159 or 140 yrs after Solomon or 1167/1163 bc (Lactantius), 2nd war 1149 (Hoeh), 1135 (Ephorus), shortly before time of Eli 1108 (24 kings document & HRB/DGB), 11th cent (some who believe it is historical), 2nd/3rd war 687-677 (Hoeh), during the 333rd king Proteus after the 12th and before the 4th/5th/19th/20th/25th dynasty (Herodotus), just before the Sea Peoples of the 19th/20th dynasty (Rohl), time of Atlantis war (Zangger), time of Piram of Jarmuth (Jantsang), time of Tiras (Bambrough), links with the Mahabharata (Bambrough), or Trojan Horse matches an Assyrian war/battering device. And the Aeneid of Virgil has it shortly before Dido/Elisa who was near in time to Jezebel. Waddell thought Troy might be Dur-ili or Durash or Darala/Urashla/Ebla of Sargon I. Some sources favour a different level/strata at Troy for the war too (Troy VI or VIIa/LBA). Hoeh has 3 wars in levels IIf, IIg/IIIa, and VIIa. Homer's date also ranges from 1104-1092 (Jerome), more than 400 yrs before 570/480 bc = 850 bc (Herodotus), to contemporary of Thaletas. Time flow charts from various ancient sources: Trojan war - 80 yrs - Homer - Heraclids. (Crates.) Trojan war - 100 yrs - Homer. (Eratosthenes.) Trojan war - 100/140 yrs - Homer/Ionian migration. (Aristarchus.) Ionian migration - Homer/Archippus. (Philochorus.) Trojan war - 180 yrs - Homer. (Philochorus.) Trojan war - 240 yrs - Homer. (Apollodorus.) Homer - a short time - 1st Olympiad 776 bc. Trojan war/captivity - 500/400 yrs - 23rd Olympiad. (Archilochus.) Trojan war - 143 yrs - Dido founded Carthage. Moses - Hyksos/Inachus - Trojan - Sea Peoples. (Rohl.) Hercules/Antaeus - Apher - Trojan - Pelasgians - Persians. (Spanish/Hoeh.) Trojan war - Brutus/Eli (HRB) 1149-1125 (Hoeh) or 1108. (HRB/DGB & 24 kings document.) Abram/Ninus - Cecrops/Moses - Trojan/Samson/20th(-21st) dyn 1561 minus 351 - Solomon/(20th-)21st dyn 1411 minus 351 - Isaiah/Olympiad. (Jerome.) Cecrops - Atlantis - Erechtheus - Minoan/Theseus - Trojan/Menestheus/Mycenae - Heraclids/Dorians. Cecrops 1581 BC - Deucalion born 1573 - Duecalion's rule 1541 - Deucalion's flood 1529 BC - invention of corn by Demeter 1409 BC - fall of Troy 1209 BC - Hesiod late 10th cent? - 1 gen - Homer - Parian Chroncile 264 bc. Red sea - Argos/Phoenicians - Colchis - Trojan - Persians - Herodotus. (Herodotus.) Atlantis - 1 gen - Argonauts - 1 gen - Trojan. Meropis - Hyperborea - Troy/Greece? Terpander - 1 gen - Thaletas/Homer. Stone age (Golden age - Silver age) - Brazen/bronze age - Heroic age (Perseus - Hercules - sons of Hercules / Odysseus/Trojan) - Iron age. 1st fall of Troy (Laomedon, Hercules etc) - Trojan war (Odysseus, Achilles, Hector etc). 1st Trojan war 1181 - (2nd Trojan war 1149) - 2nd/3rd Trojan war 687-677/early 600s. (Hoeh.) Noah 2317 bc - 833 - Troy. Agamemnon/Memnon/Trojan war - 5 gens/Memnon. Homer - more than 400 yrs - Herodotus. (Herodotus.) Trojan war - Dido - Latinus/Aeneas - 753 bc. (Aeneid/Virgil.) Solomon - 140 yrs - Trojan war. (Lactantius.) Archaeological synchronisms of Minoan/Mycenaean & Egyptian: (OK?) 1st dyn ([6th dyn?]) -- Early Minoan MK / 12th/13th dyn -- Middle Minoan 2 Hyksos/Khian -- Middle Minoan 3 NK/18/Amarna -- HT? "MM3", LM1a-b, LM2-3a; Mycenae, LH3a/b, LH1-2 T3 or A2 -- Thera? 19th dyn -- Late Helladic 3 b-c. |
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Novosedoff
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Joined: 28 Mar 2020 Location: Moscow Status: Offline Points: 557 |
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Posted: 12 Mar 2021 at 02:01 |
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That's a good question.
I thought the war was dated somewhere between 14-13 centuries BC. So it appears that Theseus and Odysseus could have been contemporary with Jewish Moses.
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I teach history to children, and I am proud that they leave my classes permeated with sh*t and hatred to meet the real world.
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franciscosan
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015 Location: Littleton CO Status: Offline Points: 10994 |
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Posted: 16 Mar 2021 at 11:30 |
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I am not sure what you mean by the Trojan War, do you mean the levels of the Tel were burnt and destroyed, for the ruins that Schleimann first excavated? or do you mean the account told in the Iliad of Homer, and referred to in other works? The former has archaeologically established dates, probably by pottery remains, the latter has literary dates, probably plural.
Not directly related, but you might find the Thalassocracy list interesting, I think it comes from Eusebius(??).
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truthsetsfree
Earl
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Posted: 17 Mar 2021 at 09:21 |
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I was thinking in terms of ancient chronological references to dates in relation to the Trojan war, which would be the literary rather than the archaeological, but with a angle that the literary must then refer or reflect an actual true historical event. So for example Lactantius is said to state that Solomon was 140 yrs before the Trojan war, but the Trojan war's date is anywhere between 1484 to 677, so I was wondering how we can determine what the correct date is from literary and/or archaeological. Yes the Trojan war occurs just before the Pelasgians who are the 1st in the list of Thalassocracies (Sea Powers) in Greek and Spanish king lists (given in Hoeh's Compendium). Possibly this may mean that the Trojan war was just before the Peleset Sea Peoples of the 19th/20th dynasty. Rohl also had the Sea Peoples coming just after the Trojan war. How much actual evidence of the war is really found in the archaeological strata? Archaeological dating methods and dates are often too long/old, so the true date will be lower. Hoeh said the ancient levels of Troy were immediately below...? I'm not sure if Theseus and Odysseus (Ulysses, Uthuze) were real persons or not. Odysseus might be related to the Hittite Utuae/Utuan or Uliliyassis, or the Hindu Yudhishthir, or Norse Odin or Ull. Theseus is similar to the Hittite Teshub and/or some other figures. |
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franciscosan
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Posted: 18 Mar 2021 at 02:08 |
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In relative dating for archaeology and numismatics, we talk about "terminus post quem" (the end after which (things happen)) and "terminus ante quem" (the 'end' before which (things happen)). I think the destruction of the sea peoples of Pylos and so forth is _a_ fairly good terminus ante quem for the destruction of other sites. The raids that baked the clay linear B (and linear A) tablets. The destruction of Troy is probably within a generation or two of Pylos and so forth. Pylos being the home of Nestor in the tales.
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truthsetsfree
Earl
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Posted: 18 Mar 2021 at 16:43 |
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Thanks the Pylos point is interesting. I'll have to look into that as I don't know alot about it other than remembering Pylos mentioned in Spanuth's book.
Sorry I feel abit stupid as I found I had forgotten that there are finds of some of the persons names of the Trojan War mentioned in Hittite records/inscriptions. So I guess we can maybe date the Trojan war by dating the context in the Hittite records (though with the caution that conventional dates are too old/long). Examples of finds of the persons names in Hittite (and Hindu and Linear) records include: Priam/Podarces - Piyama-radu Alexander (Paris) - Alaksandu Troy - Taruisa Ilium/Ilion - Wilusa ?Hector - Vicitra/Wisiti? Achilles - Akireu Trojan horse - Assyrian war/battering device Trojan war - war with Wilusa |
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Novosedoff
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Posted: 19 Mar 2021 at 04:01 |
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Does anybody agree with the opinion that the Trojan war was brought about by the Late Bronze Age collapse?
I've heard this opinion from a couple of Russian researchers (not very reputable though), but I don't understand how the Trojan war relates to this advances in technology. Did the Achaean forces actually use the iron swords unlike their counterparts from Troy? I did read the Iliad by Homer, but can't remember if Homer paid any attention to this issue.
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I teach history to children, and I am proud that they leave my classes permeated with sh*t and hatred to meet the real world.
I see my personal historic mission in bringing madness to juvenile masses. |
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franciscosan
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Posted: 20 Mar 2021 at 02:00 |
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Or the late Bronze Age collapse was brought about by the Trojan War.... Chicken and age question.
The Hittite names are tantalizing, but it could have been a weekend raiding party, added to, and magnified all out of proportion. The catalogue of ships however, is an interesting document, grafted on to the Iliad, more representing the Hesiodic tradition than the Homeric one, most of the names in it are very early and not found in Archaic or Classical Greek sources (other than the catalogue). If I recall correctly, most of the names in the catalogue (book 2 of the Iliad), are Boeotian. I think there are references to iron ingots in Homer, but in general they use bronze. They have chariots in the Iliad, but in general they treat them like taxis, dropping them off where they are going to actually fight. In other words, Homer did not know how chariots were used in warfare. The Iliad and the Odyssey are products of the dark age.
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Novosedoff
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Posted: 20 Mar 2021 at 03:11 |
Well, Hittites are famous for knowing the secret of iron smelting, and they were apparently much closer to Troy than the Achaean scum from Balkans (both, Hittites and Trojans, shared the same Anatolian peninsula after all). So I'd expect Iron to reach Troy BEFORE Greeks could have even learnt about it. In other words, the technological advantage must have been on the side of Troy. What else does the archeological science tell us about it?
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I teach history to children, and I am proud that they leave my classes permeated with sh*t and hatred to meet the real world.
I see my personal historic mission in bringing madness to juvenile masses. |
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franciscosan
WorldHistoria Master
Joined: 09 Feb 2015 Location: Littleton CO Status: Offline Points: 10994 |
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Posted: 25 Mar 2021 at 03:37 |
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I seem to remember that there are iron bars as a symbol of wealth, (along with bronze, etc.) I don't think that there are iron swords. Ajax (Aias) the greater's armor is different than the rest of the Achaeans dating back to an early way of fighting.
Chicken and egg question, not Chicken and age question, nor ago, nor go-go, Although I imagine nobody here is a spring chicken.
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