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Did Christianity destroy ancient science?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quill & Ink HIstory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 18:52
Hi there! I did not se that people have started to write on the tread again. For your info Im working on new videos at the moment. Im going to try to respond to the comments but Im not going to stay on the tread for a longer discussion.

Franciscosan: Thx for your comments!

Vanuatu: Hi! It´s not clear what point you are trying to make? If you could try to formulate what problems you se with the claims in the video, please do so on the messages and I will try to respond as best as a can.

Toyomotor: Hi again! Ive wrote earlier that I recommend you to read litterature on this subject and still recommend that you do that(since judging by the comment you made, I don´t think you have). Here are some books I would recommend to start with.

"Beginnings of Western science" by David C Lindberg.

"Science and religion 400 B.C - A.D 1550" by Edward Grant.

"God´s philosophers" by James Hannam.

I won´t go into a debate on this forum but if there is any litterature you would recommend on the subject, Il gladly pick it up and read it when I have time.


"As a historian, all I wan´t to do is get the story straight based on the evidence we have"

- Ronald Numbers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 23:59
Quill, you don't mention the Apostolic Fathers but you imply that all was darkness until St Clement A. applied Greek Philosophy to the interpretation of the "Word." In the view of Pentecostalism , Baptists and Evangelicals, the list of Church Fathers end at 150 AD. 

The Post- Nicene Fathers like Augustine and Clement were after more than the natural philosophy. 
It was political stature and power under Imperial rule that fostered Clement's use of allegorical interpretation used to make more difficult passages from the Bible, palatable. Clement was tired of being among the uneducated lower classes, being jeered at by libertines and pagans and tired of arguing with Jews.

I don't find any religious scientific advance until the 6th century. I suppose an undefined timeline could make anyone's imagination run wild. After 313 Rome is love with Christianity and this as the ultimate purpose in pursuit of philosophy, to take the Jewish books for Jasus. Jerome was appalled and Augustine changed his mind about premillennialism near his death.

You do not site a single scientific advance in the age of the Post-Nicene Fathers. Your experts say ..they did nothing to stop it...alchemy, precursor to chemistry- disagreed with their allegorical, arbitrary interpretations (Faith before reason!). Augustine sees the state as divinely endowed and he was hot to root out heresy. This praise for doing "nothing to stop " what exactly? Alchemy? 
And they did destroy it in Alexandria, 296.


"The marginalization of the premillennialism of the Bible and the early church fathers was so successful that even the reformers dismissed it as a "fable of Jewish dotage."

The premillennial position is that the Bible should be interpreted in its ordinary grammatical and historical meaning in all areas of theology unless contextual or theological reasons make it clear that this was not intended by the writer. Amillenarians use the literal method in theology as a whole but spiritualize Scripture whenever its literal meaning would lead to the premillennial viewpoint. 

Not until mid 19th century was premillennialism an accepted form of interpretation of the Bible.

However, the development of Christianity in the Empire brought a contrary line of thinking, stemming from Augustine (354-430 CE), ... who wrote of his beliefs shortly before the fall of the Roman Empire. In essence, he felt that reason and faith could be used to understand God, but experimental philosophy was evil: "There is also present in the soul, by means of these same bodily sense, a kind of empty longing and curiosity which aims not at taking pleasure in the flesh but at acquiring experience through the flesh, and this empty curiosity is dignified by the names of learning and science." (Augustine, p. 245)

Augustinian ideas were decidedly anti-experimental, yet when Aristotelian experimental techniques were made available to the West they were not shunned. Still, Augustinian thought was well ingrained in medieval society and was used to show alchemy as being un-Godly. Ultimately, by the high middle ages, this line of thought created a permanent rift separating alchemy from the very religion that had fostered its birth.

(same link as above)
So I am not impressed with church fathers who didn't try to stop natural sciences. It simply means they didn't have enough power to do it, yet.
*correction-Christians destroy alchemical texts 391 by order of Theodosus and Ambrose. Can we assume Augustine was all in on that?


Edited by Vanuatu - 28 Feb 2017 at 14:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2017 at 02:30
I don't think very much about your source, Vanuatu.  
From what I imperfectly remember about Paracelsus
was that he rejected Galen as not being Christian, 
and therefore offered an alternative to the four elements.

But of course, with many new age sources, it is important to
paint Christianity in a bad light.  The problem is that doing
so falsifies things and does not give credit to human
complexity.

Christianity offered an alternative to Galen and Aristotle,
just as "Pythagoreanism" (Copernicus) offered an alternative
to Ptolemy and scholastic Aristotelianism.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2017 at 03:01
What about the information is wrong? I mean in reference to the topic.
Are you saying Theodosius and Ambrose didn't order the burning of alchemical books? Lots of sources cite that event.
 


Edited by Vanuatu - 28 Feb 2017 at 03:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2017 at 04:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2017 at 12:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2017 at 14:19
St. Augustine (354-430) fitted into this anti-rationalistic tradition. Although early in his career he seem to have held that reason was an important element in the search for truth, things soon changed. Upon becoming bishop of Hippo, he started to deride all forms of secular learning and education. He abused Greek philosophy and called Plato "a fool". He labeled philosophers as "arrogant" and, in line with the New Testament, he taught that "it is the ignorant who enter heaven." Augustine believed that the Fall (of Adam and Eve) corrupted humankind to the extend where they are incapable of using their independent reason to discover the truth. To Augustine, if God wanted to let humankind know something about the world he would have revealed it unambiguously through his word; if God has chosen not to reveal something, then it means that he does not intend humankind to know. [10]

-So when the Bishop is telling his faithful, if God wanted you to know this he'd have laid an egg in your brain, he not suppressing the advance of natural science?-

Origen (c185-254) continued along this line. In his polemical work Contra Celsum this is what he had to say about reason, faith and the multitude of ordinary Christians:

As this matter of faith...we accept it as useful for the multitude, and that we admittedly teach those who cannot abandon everything and pursue a study of rational argument to believe without thinking out their arguments. [5]

-But Origen wanted to be free to interpret the "Word" on the fly.-

In other words, since the multitudes do not have the time, the inclination nor the aptitude to understand, Origen recommended that they simply believe what is being fed to them from the pulpit!

Lactantius (c240-c320 CE), a Christian apologist and tutor to one of Constantine's sons, condemned all forms of secular knowledge and pure science:

What purpose does knowledge serve-for as to natural causes, what blessing is there for me to know where the Nile rises, or whatever else under the heavens the "scientists" rave about? [6]

-Again, once in authority all speculation is discouraged. Cave dwellers knew more about the natural world than the Early Christians. What possible good would it serve to understand seasonal changes? Neanderthal knew better!-

As we have shown elsewhere, Christians, wherever and whenever they were in a position to do so, attacked and destroyed the repositories of knowledge, namely books and libraries. In 363-364, the Christian emperor Jovian, ordered the pagan library in Antioch to be burnt. Around the year 372, the Christian emperor Valens (d.378), as part of his persecution of pagans, ordered the burning of non-Christian books in Antioch. Then in 391, perhaps the greatest intellectual tragedy of all, the great library of Alexandria (which was reputed to house 700,000 books on all subjects) was destroyed by a group of monks led by Theophilus (d.412), bishop of Alexandria. Pope Gregory The Great (c.540-604) was the person responsible for destroying the last collection of older Roman works in the city. Up to the fifth century many Greco Roman cities had libraries which housed more than 100,000 books. These were all destroyed by the Christians. [14]
http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/reasonfathers.html#6

-Can't wait to hear your spin on Hypatia.-


Edited by Vanuatu - 28 Feb 2017 at 14:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2017 at 16:21
Originally posted by Quill & Ink HIstory Quill & Ink HIstory wrote:

Hi there! I did not se that people have started to write on the tread again. For your info Im working on new videos at the moment. Im going to try to respond to the comments but Im not going to stay on the tread for a longer discussion.

Franciscosan: Thx for your comments!

Vanuatu: Hi! It´s not clear what point you are trying to make? If you could try to formulate what problems you se with the claims in the video, please do so on the messages and I will try to respond as best as a can.

Toyomotor: Hi again! Ive wrote earlier that I recommend you to read litterature on this subject and still recommend that you do that(since judging by the comment you made, I don´t think you have). Here are some books I would recommend to start with.

"Beginnings of Western science" by David C Lindberg.

"Science and religion 400 B.C - A.D 1550" by Edward Grant.

"God´s philosophers" by James Hannam.

I won´t go into a debate on this forum but if there is any litterature you would recommend on the subject, Il gladly pick it up and read it when I have time.


I won´t go into a debate on this forum but if there is any litterature you would recommend on the subject, Il gladly pick it up and read it when I have time.


[/QUOTE]

Really? you wouldn't even cut and paste a link to a paragraph that I suggested. You don't know why Paul is important? Please, I know your educated but your still wrong and it doesn't take a francisosan to see it.
 
Quill, is this the extent of the defense of your ideas here? Telling people to read the books that YOU agree with? I know why you don't go into debate it's because there is a contrary view that you cannot disprove. 
I hope you didn't pay those experts to sit there looking collegiate saying "They did nothing to stop it." Whoa my head is spinning from the wisdom! 

You don't cite a single source that can't be crushed. Of course you would just say "Not a reliable source." PfttThumbs Down
You are trying to rewrite history. If Augustine as bishop told his faithful to look at the natural world as a mystery to be understood, the world might have been a much better place. Instead he and others like him helped to bury the brilliance of the great Empires and inspired hatred and violence that still plagues us today. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2017 at 23:12
Have you ever gardened?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 03:08
There may be a prohibition against going off topic here.
Not for 20 years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 03:54
It's not off topic.

For certain kinds of bushes, you chop them back to a stump in the fall, so that they can grow in the Spring.  When people talk about ancient science, they're pretty much talking about Archaic, Classical and Hellenistic Greek.  Things are pretty static in the ancient world after the Greeks,  Think about it, how many "scientists" are there after the Greeks?  Galen is derivative from Hippocrates.  Ptolemy?  Archimedes?  Euclid? I know you probably don't think much of them, but Plato and Aristotle.

Ancient science was qualitative, describing the quality of things.  Modern science is more quantitative, experimental, and instrumental.  I think your definition of science, if you think about it, is really talking about just _modern_ science, quantitative, mathematical, experimental in terms of the interrogation of nature.  But _if_ you are talking about science as only scientific progress, you don't see much between the Hellenistic and the Renaissance, that includes Platonists like Boethius, or Augustine, or Aristotelians like Aquinas (oh, but don't forget medieval islam and Judaism. and but also someone like Hypatia, or her father.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 04:13
Oh, you mean they weren't talking about cold fusion in the 3rd century? Thanks for clearing that up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 04:44
franciscosan wrote
Quote Modern science is more quantitative, experimental, and instrumental.  I think your definition of science, if you think about it, is really talking about just _modern_ science, quantitative, mathematical, experimental in terms of the interrogation of nature.

I don't agree with you!

Modern science is also qualitive, with peer reviews and more than one expert in one field working a problem. We read debate and disagreement, we see calls for more proof of what has gone/is going on around us.

As I've written before, todays truth may well be turned upside down tomorrow.

Again, I don't think that Christianity destroyed ancient science, retarded it's progress, channeled it into different directions, certainly.

Please show me examples of how ancient science was destroyed by Christianity.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 11:35
The physical destruction of alchemist texts and other scrolls in Alexandria, are outlined and linked in previous posts. In this example several incidents are noted. If you burn all written knowledge of the time on a given subject, the science is effectively destroyed until that science is rediscoverd at a later time. 

You ever wonder why it was 'news' 20 years ago that the Egyptians had a version of battery power? Well, every written source was lost on the subject. Possibly in one these mob attacks. Think of antikythera device. Maybe Cicero mentioned it but where are the technical writings on the subject?
If they ever existed they would have likely been in Ptolemy's library.

As we have shown elsewhere, Christians, wherever and whenever they were in a position to do so, attacked and destroyed the repositories of knowledge, namely books and libraries. In 363-364, the Christian emperor Jovian, ordered the pagan library in Antioch to be burnt. Around the year 372, the Christian emperor Valens (d.378), as part of his persecution of pagans, ordered the burning of non-Christian books in Antioch. Then in 391, perhaps the greatest intellectual tragedy of all, the great library of Alexandria (which was reputed to house 700,000 books on all subjects) was destroyed by a group of monks led by Theophilus (d.412), bishop of Alexandria. Pope Gregory The Great (c.540-604) was the person responsible for destroying the last collection of older Roman works in the city. Up to the fifth century many Greco Roman cities had libraries which housed more than 100,000 books. These were all destroyed by the Christians. [14]
http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/reasonfathers.html#6
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 13:15
Further to the last, discouraging and prohibiting scientific inquiry in the form of church doctrine among the common people wasn't conducive to advanced thinking. In fact the theology of Augustine, Clement and some of their contemporaries actively tries to suppress humanity's natural curiosity and interest in the natural world. Possibly even more devastating to scientific development than burning libraries. 

The choice of words here "destroy' is severe and  purposely used to take away the blame that has always been laid at the feet of the church. C'mon, they " did nothing to stop it " right? So I don't agree, and so I say yes in at least two ways they did destroy the scientific development in Alexandria and later in Europe.
Augustine and others broke from the literal translations of the "Word" in favor of their own personal leanings and political aspirations for themselves and the church body.

The reason I mentioned Enoch is because the book suggests a different view of humanity, the heavens and God's relationship to man than was espoused by ante-Nicene fathers. It encourages a higher form of thinking, visualization and the ascent of man. The first church fathers and alchemists treasured this book. It was never made part of the Canon and bc of men like Augustine it was hidden away, saved from destruction. In my view individual spiritual growth was not a virtue to Augustine, Clement and others, if it collided with the political advancement of the church body. Enoch is difficult to explain but wow, does it make you think! I didn't elaborate earlier assuming these things are known to the author of this thread.


Edited by Vanuatu - 01 Mar 2017 at 14:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 14:42

http://reluctant-messenger.com/council-of-laodicea.htm

Books banned by the Council of Laodicea

Barnabas
I Clement
II Clement
Christ and Abgarus
The Apostles' Creed
I Hermas-Visions
II Hermas-Commands
III Hermas-Similitudes
Ephesians
I Infancy
II Infancy
Mary
Magnesians
Nicodemus
Paul and Seneca
Paul and Thecla
Philippians
Philadelphians
Polycarp
Romans
Trallians
Letters of Herod and Pilate
The First Book of Adam and Eve
The Second Book of Adam and Eve
The Secrets of Enoch
The Psalms of Solomon
The Odes of Solomon
The Fourth Book of Maccabees
The Story of Ahikar
The Testament of Reuben
Asher
Joseph
Simeon
Levi
Judah
Issachar
Zebulum
Dan
Naphtali
Gad
Benjamin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 20:02
Where do you think the ancient texts that we have, came from?
Half the plays of Euripides were gone by the time that the Library
of Alexandria was founded.  I suggest looking at when Euripides 
was (contemporary with Socrates), and when the library of Alexandria
was. btw from World of Odysseus, by Finley. 
 It's like a lot of the silent films that
were big in that era, have disappeared in less than a hundred years,
every once in awhile something turns up in Argentina or New Zealand
(or maybe, Tasmania??) which was the end of the line for circulation
of movie reels.  If you haven't seen it, I would suggest seeing 
Scorseci's 'Hugo'.  I won't explain why, you can look that up,
if you want.  
 There were mobs that went on rampages destroying 
 pagan culture and there were demagogues who lead those crowds, 
 but most of ancient culture died because of the passage 
 of time and neglect.  There was intermittent, disorganized,
occasional persecution of pagans, after a few _hundred_ years
of persecution of Christians, _because_ Christians would
not recognize the divine authority of the Emperor, and 
the (other) gods upon which the Roman state was founded.
'to forgive is divine,' but payback is a lot more human,
all too human.  And of course, there were conflicts 
between different kinds of Christians.  Yes, Christianity
is not all about sitting around singing 'kumbaya' <grin>.
What power structure doesn't attract opportunists, and
the tyrannical?
I am curious which of the books above have you read,
Vanuatu?  True, some probably no longer exist.  But if
you place some value on them, I would hope that you
would read them, to foil the censors if for no other reason.
I think it is a fair question, considering you brought them up.
For myself I have read the Biblical ones, plus a few others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 20:54
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Where do you think the ancient texts that we have, came from?
Half the plays of Euripides were gone by the time that the Library
of Alexandria was founded.  I suggest looking at when Euripides 
was (contemporary with Socrates), and when the library of Alexandria
was. btw from World of Odysseus, by Finley. 
 It's like a lot of the silent films that
were big in that era, have disappeared in less than a hundred years,
every once in awhile something turns up in Argentina or New Zealand
(or maybe, Tasmania??) which was the end of the line for circulation
of movie reels.  If you haven't seen it, I would suggest seeing 
Scorseci's 'Hugo'.  I won't explain why, you can look that up,
if you want.  
 There were mobs that went on rampages destroying 
 pagan culture and there were demagogues who lead those crowds, 
 but most of ancient culture died because of the passage 
 of time and neglect.  There was intermittent, disorganized,
occasional persecution of pagans, after a few _hundred_ years
of persecution of Christians, _because_ Christians would
not recognize the divine authority of the Emperor, and 
the (other) gods upon which the Roman state was founded.
'to forgive is divine,' but payback is a lot more human,
all too human.  And of course, there were conflicts 
between different kinds of Christians.  Yes, Christianity
is not all about sitting around singing 'kumbaya' <grin>.
What power structure doesn't attract opportunists, and
the tyrannical?
I am curious which of the books above have you read,
Vanuatu?  True, some probably no longer exist.  But if
you place some value on them, I would hope that you
would read them, to foil the censors if for no other reason.
I think it is a fair question, considering you brought them up.
For myself I have read the Biblical ones, plus a few others.

I think that people were able to hide books or preserve them however it pleases you. The Alchemical text the Leyden Papyrus was hidden with an Egyptian alchemist in his tomb. When people fled Constantinople they took the Hermetica with them and they were basically carrying the only things of great value to them.  

I do not say every text was destroyed and like the Dead Sea Scrolls which contained parts of the book of Enoch, they were hidden for a reason.
The Ptolemy Library was not the only one in Alexandria there were many. Is it a radical idea that people would have hidden books??? 
The Bishop Augustine did recognize the divinity of the state. And the words used to indict Augustine, Clement, Origen -are their own.

I don't disagree that the power structure we are discussing was tyrannical.

The list was included to prove that Enoch, which I have read was banned. And yes do ask:
Apostles Creed
Parts of Clement 1&2 that were of interest to me.
Ephesians
Mary
Philippians
Romans
Psalms of Solomon

Now, are you going to assert that because I have not read all these books from cover to cover that it changes any part of this discussion? Just curious.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 22:36
No, I was just curious about what you read.  The list does concern censorship, it is relevant in that way, but does not really concern ancient science, (except if you count theology, perhaps, or not). 

That is about what I've read of the list.  Maybe a few others.  The best stuff got into the Old Testament and New Testament, a lot of the extra-Canonical stuff is not so memorable.  Gospel of Thomas is good.

Of course, things get hidden, but except for a few things from the Egyptian and Palestinian desert, their survival depended on copying.  Deterioration of manuscripts and things falling apart in the passage of time is what destroyed most, except for what monks copied and, yes, preserved.  And some of those things that monks preserved are, frankly, pornographic.  I am talking about love poetry and literature, and don't be confused by the fact that it is poetry, it is not noble or enlightened.  I have not sought out the 'hardcore' stuff, but I know it exists (and scholars tend not to translate it, because if
you don't know Latin or Greek enough, then they think that you don't have business reading it).  

I wouldn't so much describe the Leyden Papyrus as being 'hidden' as it is grave goods, placed with its owner (maker?) in his burial for the "next" life.  The Nag Hammadi texts were hidden, put in earthen jars and buried under a rock, so were Dead Sea Scrolls.  The Derveni Papyrus (Orphic, 'Europe's oldest book) was grave goods, which by a fluke was preserved in Greece.  The Zagreb 'manuscript' (Etruscan) was mummy wrappings.  The Archimedes palimpsest, well if you don't know what a palimpsest is, look it up.  Point is there are a lot of ways that ancient books come down through time.  Some of these books may have been hidden at some point, but at the same time, the monks (particularly the Irish monks) were not necessarily that particular about what they copied.  If it was Latin and they could get their hands on it, it got copied.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 23:06
I had read somewhere that the Leyden Papyrus was hidden bc of Justinian banning alchemy but I am not sure.
Think of the first Bishops, the apostles. They were given a power (belief of the faithful, not hard science) to lay hands on the next Bishop to impart the power of the Holy Spirit. All religions seem to be about the transformation of the individual to be worthy of trans-formative power of God. 

The Gnostics of pre-Christian era and alchemists of Middle Ages alike were after this spiritual 'gold.' Yet it seems all of that was tossed by these ante-Nicene Church Fathers for the greater glory of the state, political power and personal status. That trans-formative state is THE best thing about religion but they denied it to common people. Before you say that they were too dim to understand, think of the what Alexandria was like during 3rd century.
It was a hub of ideas and learning and had the potential for amazing growth. Shedding the Apostolic Fathers and the Hebrew traditions for an Empire friendly treatise is so base and deceptive! It wouldn't be the last time either. So if they could deny the faithful this spiritual transformation, what qualms would they have about extending the ignorance to observable natural phenomenon that would eventually lead to experimentation?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 23:15
LOL. Isn't the brain the highest sexual organ? Tantra, the sacred sex? Solomon would agree. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 23:27
Toyomotor, I think you are disagreeing with me without understanding what I am saying, or trying to say.  Which is partially my fault.  But understand it is like being in orbit looking down, "bird's eye view."  One can look down upon a city, but explaining what one is seeing is a different story, both because of the complexity of the object, but also because it is on the edge of one's power of vision (so small) because of the distance, and also maybe because of 'atmospheric' distortions (clouds).

Galileo said that mathematics is the language of nature.  Before that, mathematics wasn't so much used to describe the world.  It was a model for beauty, but primarily human made beauty, except for the heavens.

I have read a lot on ancient science, not that you should take my word for it.  I don't expect you to agree, but I don't really expect you to disagree either.  Just try to see what I am saying, and look up a few things.
Some places to look are Heath, Lloyd, Sarton.  I have read Euclid, Hippocrates, Plato, Aristotle, the fragments of the Presocratics.  Pythagoras and his school, About ancient mathematics, geography, astronomy, Stoicism, Epicureanism, Egyptian math, Babylonian math, Hypatia, Pythias of Massalia, other stuff I am more vague on, I've looked at Archimedes, haven't looked at Ptolemy.  But what I am saying is that I have a breadth of knowledge about antiquity, and in areas some depth.  I don't want you to trust me on things, but please understand, my opinions on it don't come out of just nowhere, I have looked to some extent.

If you look at the great names of ancient science, they tend to be Greek and they tend to be Hellenistic era or earlier (Hellenistic period begins with Alexander of Macedon conquering Persia), Galen is Roman, but I seem to remember he is derivative of Hippocrates.  Ancient science becomes pretty static in the Roman Empire and the Middle Ages, until the renaissance.  The problem with ancient science was not repression but stagnation, and this not only applied to science, but also to literature.  There is a story about a poetry contest, which a sophist (intellectual) was invited to be one of the judges, a group of 'poets' read their work, and this scholar voted for one of the candidates that all the other judges voted for last.  When asked why he voted for that guy, he said that that poet's work was the only stuff that was original, and all the rest where just ripping off Homer or other poets of the past.  There was an assumption in antiquity, that as time progressed, things got worse, which meant there was a fascination for the past when there was a golden age, (down to silver, bronze, iron, etc.).  Can you imagine living
in a time where everybody thinks everything has been done?  That is what late antiquity was like, or at least late Pagan antiquity.  The Christians shook everything up.  Classical antiquity was in a rut, and Christianity got it out of its rut.  Unlimited advancement of science was not an option in any case.  This idea that science could have gone on "progressing," throughout the Middle Ages ignores the fact that science hadn't been progressing very much since the Hellenistic era (before Cleopatra). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 23:38
There is a difference between science and technology, although people often confuse them.  I seem to remember it is Lynn White who wrote about how the technology of the Middle Ages lead to the scientific revolution.  The codex is late antiquity, but it should be mentioned.  The stirrup, the clock, the water wheel, lens were in antiquity, but really didn't come into there own, until glasses, the telescope and the microscope.  I think a new kind of plow was introduced.  Metallurgy was important in the Middle Ages, all those knights in shining armor and long swords.  Point is, there were a lot of things happening in the Middle Ages that paved the way for the imagination of a new world.  Standardization of time, because of clocks.  Freeing of labor by water wheels and windmills.  New worlds through the telescope and the microscope.  Oh, don't forget Gutenberg and the printing press, before that it took a couple years to produce _a_ book.  Woodcuts also, for printing illustrations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2017 at 02:17
I may have over exaggerated the absence of 'scientists' in later antiquity.  But, really science was an appreciation of nature (natural philosophy), and the main reason for appreciating nature (creation) was so that one might appreciate the creator's handwork.  One could do this in paganism, but really only to a limited extent, because if you think about it, even if Zeus is more powerful than the rest, combined.  There are still a variety of "creators."  Again, it is _appreciation_ of nature, the idea that science and technology go hand in hand, is foreign to the ancient world.  It is not until Francis Bacon, or Machiavelli that one gets the idea of Nature as something that needs to be interrogated, with torture, in order to reveal her secrets.  That is not completely true, there are different models of nature from the ancient world, the Promethean which is modern science, man stealing fire and crafts from the gods.  The Orphic, man charming and enticing nature through the arts to give up her secrets.  And Isis, where underneath the veil of nature, there is another veil, and so forth.  (Pierre Hadot).  But modern science is pretty much Promethean, man doing violence to nature to get her secrets.  Under that view of "science," ancient science is deficient.  Ancient science is primarily Orphic (Timaeus), basking in the glory of the heavens, without too much of a preoccupation with mathematical fine points.

Vanuatu, I imagine that some scholar said that about the Leyden Papyrus, it is what Plato would call "a likely story" (a myth).  It could be true, but it is probably beyond our knowledge.  It sounds like "post hoc, ergo propter hoc."  A logical fallacy meaning "after this, therefore because of this."  It is something that sounds like it might make a good story in a video, and ultimately we don't know that is wrong."  Of course, there may be evidence in the find that points to that (but I don't know what it is), therefore one might ask if the expert is someone careful about their assertions, and can back up what they say.

One thing about the Gnostics, is that they believed this world was made by an "evil" demiurge who separated us from the 'good' God.  Humans were alienated by the demiurge from their true origin.  This world which we were in, was _bad_, a veil of tears and pain, and confusion.  Orthodox Christian doctrine recognizes _this_ world as "fallen," but that is not the same thing as bad.  God declared all of creation to be good, and it still is good for Orthodox Christians, it is just that world and man's relationship with it, are a little screwed up.  Now I am sure that you know the stories in Genesis.  It is not a question of whether these stories are fair, they describe how Jews, and thus Christians should see the world.  For Christians, Nature is not bad, not evil, it is fallen.  It is proper for humanity to study nature for the appreciation of God's handiwork.  In fact, the power of Adam to name things, is interpreted as an injunction to study nature, and thus science.
I think that you can see where this goes, the Gnostics typically have a rejection of the world, and thus nature, and thus science as bad.  The Orthodox and the Catholics look upon this world as "fallen," but not as bad and therefore, promoted a 'certain' view of science.  Man is supposed to be the custodian of nature according to Genesis.  Alchemy is something different.
But if you want to Vanuatu, let's start up a thread on Gnosticism, either you can start it, or if you don't I will. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2017 at 05:07
franciscosan:

Mate, how many topics are you going to address in a single post?

Quote But if you want to Vanuatu, let's start up a thread on Gnosticism, either you can start it, or if you don't I will.

I don't really see the alignment of Gnosticism and Christian destruction of ancient science.

Schisms  developed in the Christian Church, which led to the Reformation etc. Various religeous movements, at various times during the past two millenia outlawed verious scientific trains of though because they were contrary to the teaching of the church, but did they really destroy the science, or merely retard its progress?



 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quill & Ink HIstory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2017 at 18:05
Hi! I don´t always leave an old forum tread hanging for a few days but when I do it seems like people go crazy in it. Vanatu I said earlier that I would not go into a debate on the subject since I have a loot to do in my studies and because Im working at new videos.

To respond to the swamp-texting you have done In the tread would include getting back the library books I used in the video and writing an esseay in the tread and that would take several hours and judging by the posts you have made it seems pretty useless since you have outright dismissed the scholarly litterature that I have referred to while blindly accepting any internett page true as long as it sais things you want to hear.


"Quill, is this the extent of the defense of your ideas here? Telling people to read the books that YOU agree with? I know why you don't go into debate it's because there is a contrary view that you cannot disprove.
I hope you didn't pay those experts to sit there looking collegiate saying "They did nothing to stop it." Whoa my head is spinning from the wisdom!

You don't cite a single source that can't be crushed. Of course you would just say "Not a reliable source."

You are trying to rewrite history. If Augustine as bishop told his faithful to look at the natural world as a mystery to be understood, the world might have been a much better place. Instead he and others like him helped to bury the brilliance of the great Empires and inspired hatred and violence that still plagues us today.".

Did I hit a soft spott or something? I am not recommending certain litterature because I "agree" with it. I recommend the litterature because it written by leading schoolars in the field and If there is any scholarly litterature arguing for the opposite I make sure I pick it up, read it and take it into account. You seem also to be equating crushing sources with dismissing them. And no Im am not trying to rewrite history, the claims that I argue for in the video is well established among church historians and historians of science. If you don´t believe me I recommend you visit a university and check for yourself.

I have said why I wont go into a debate on the subject. It would take to long time and would probably be pretty meaningless. If there is any schollarship or litterature that you would recommend me to read to try to convince you of you position, please let me know.

Whishing you all a good weekend.

Quill & Ink History.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2017 at 22:24
Well, we'll look forward to your next youtube video, let us know when that is done.  It may have gone beyond your purposes, but thank you for starting this thread, definitely gives food for thought.  "Mann ist was er Isst."  Toyomotor, Vanuatu brought up Gnosticism earlier, and Gnosticism is relevant indirectly because it is contemporary, because it is sometimes thought as alternative to Orthodox Christianity, and because it tends to have a very hostile attitude towards the world and nature.  Orthodoxy is more friendly to nature in that respect.  So in contrast with what else was there at the time, Orthodoxy is friendlier to nature, and thus to what we would call ancient science.  We understand the world in comparison and contrast, and if you understand something about Gnosticism, you would have a better understanding of ancient views of nature and science.  But as far as effort is concerned, it is more efficient to look just at ancient science and religion directly.  So, I suggested that if Vanuatu would like, I would be up for starting another thread on Gnosticism.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2017 at 22:57
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

franciscosan:

Mate, how many topics are you going to address in a single post?

Quote But if you want to Vanuatu, let's start up a thread on Gnosticism, either you can start it, or if you don't I will.

I don't really see the alignment of Gnosticism and Christian destruction of ancient science.

Schisms  developed in the Christian Church, which led to the Reformation etc. Various religeous movements, at various times during the past two millenia outlawed verious scientific trains of though because they were contrary to the teaching of the church, but did they really destroy the science, or merely retard its progress?



 

Well I didn't choose the title but it differs slightly from the video. If Christiany destroyed science we wouldn't be having the debate. I felt the assertion was that not only did Christianity not retard scientific experimentation but Christians actually were the first scientists.

There are Scholars such as Albert S. Lyons who say that Science existed before Christianity and persevered throughout the Dark Ages in spite of Christianity. 100 years after Theodosius in Italy, medicine and law are dispensed with, alliances by blood line are diminished and submission to the Papacy becomes the norm in matters of intellectually driven work.

I say it significantly disrupted the progress of Scientific Inquiry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2017 at 23:15
Originally posted by Quill & Ink HIstory Quill & Ink HIstory wrote:

Hi! I don´t always leave an old forum tread hanging for a few days but when I do it seems like people go crazy in it. Vanatu I said earlier that I would not go into a debate on the subject since I have a loot to do in my studies and because Im working at new videos.

To respond to the swamp-texting you have done In the tread would include getting back the library books I used in the video and writing an esseay in the tread and that would take several hours and judging by the posts you have made it seems pretty useless since you have outright dismissed the scholarly litterature that I have referred to while blindly accepting any internett page true as long as it sais things you want to hear.


"Quill, is this the extent of the defense of your ideas here? Telling people to read the books that YOU agree with? I know why you don't go into debate it's because there is a contrary view that you cannot disprove.
I hope you didn't pay those experts to sit there looking collegiate saying "They did nothing to stop it." Whoa my head is spinning from the wisdom!

You don't cite a single source that can't be crushed. Of course you would just say "Not a reliable source."

You are trying to rewrite history. If Augustine as bishop told his faithful to look at the natural world as a mystery to be understood, the world might have been a much better place. Instead he and others like him helped to bury the brilliance of the great Empires and inspired hatred and violence that still plagues us today.".

Did I hit a soft spott or something? I am not recommending certain litterature because I "agree" with it. I recommend the litterature because it written by leading schoolars in the field and If there is any scholarly litterature arguing for the opposite I make sure I pick it up, read it and take it into account. You seem also to be equating crushing sources with dismissing them. And no Im am not trying to rewrite history, the claims that I argue for in the video is well established among church historians and historians of science. If you don´t believe me I recommend you visit a university and check for yourself.

I have said why I wont go into a debate on the subject. It would take to long time and would probably be pretty meaningless. If there is any schollarship or litterature that you would recommend me to read to try to convince you of you position, please let me know.

Whishing you all a good weekend.

Quill & Ink History.

Well you should be glad to have people looking at your video. Right? Swamp texting?
Of course there are scholars, non Christians scholars who have an alternate view. You ask if you hit a soft spot? You mean sore spot that's ok I understand. It's the bull **** meter that you hit Quill.


Your sources are promoting a narrative which is fine everyone does this. It does make the opinion biased, because who else is looking to prove that Christianity isn't backwards other than Christians?

I don't have to visit a university there are scholarly sources online. If you don't want to check the link Richard Carrier, Kenneth Clarke, Ruth Hurmence Green, John Romer, John Kelly, Barbara Tuchman-all historians who disagree with your experts, many more exist.

That was your claim right? No historians/scholars hold these views? It's just bogus internet sources? 

Which historians of science other than those Christians in your video, are promoting this view?
You don't have to debate it would be a waste of your time. It's all in black and white. 

Have a good weekend yourself. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2017 at 00:22
Vanuatu wrote 
Quote I say it significantly disrupted the progress of Scientific Inquiry.

And I agree.

To agree with the OP, would mean that progress in the sciences only re-commenced one or two hundred years ago, which, of course would be nonsense.

Non-intervention in the sciences would probably have meant far more progress in things like health, physics geology and so on.

As the self declared font of all knowledge, the medievil Christian Church was blind to what the result of scientific learning, in most areas, would bring.(IMHO)
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