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Did Jesus really exist?

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    Posted: 25 Dec 2020 at 02:40
An interesting article has been published in Swiss newspaper Tages-Anzeiger
https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/hat-jesus-von-nazareth-wirklich-gelebt-206484605276

It's been translated into Russian, 
https://www.inopressa.ru/article/24dec2020/tagesanzeiger/jesus.html  
- you can right-click on Russian text in Chrome and choose  "Translate to English" if you don't read in German like me

Lets discuss Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Dec 2020 at 13:12
There is the James ossuary which mentions James brother of Jesus son of Joseph. Though its genuineness was previously disputed. I gave this and some other evidences for his having existed in my blog post here http://iwillnotbeassimilated.blogspot.com/2020/11/who-wasis-jesus.html (no point me repeating it all here).
There is not a great lot of evidence but there is enough to assume that he fairly surely did exist in that time and place.
I don't know if the few houses found in Nazareth are much evidence? My impression is that there is still little evidence that Nazareth was a "city" in Jesus' times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Dec 2020 at 13:26
I don't have a right click function, but I'll bite.

I am not sure what you mean by "exist", do unicorns exist?  Do they really exist?  They probably "exist" on a level of reality that is more than just the mundane, every day reality.  They symbolize purity and love, and other things that make teenage girls get giddy.  Do you mean that there is no contemporary historical or archaeological evidence for Jesus?  Maybe so, but that is true of 99.9 % of the population at that time, at least not evidence that we can recognize.  (Someone must have built 'x' wall, but we have little or no evidence to attribute a "who" to that.)

Actually, I kinda see the ancient Jews as coming to bristle under Roman rule, think of it as a population that endlessly wanted to throw off Roman rule (and getting themselves killed in the process), inevitably a mutation would arise where a Jew would arise that would figure out how to go up against the irresistible force of the Roman Empire.  Jesus was the Jew who destroyed or at least transformed the Roman Empire.  He was the guppy who took on the whale, and won, sure, what 3-400 years later with the coming of Constantine.  but if it makes you feel good to doubt the stories, go ahead and do that;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2020 at 04:01
Originally posted by truthsetsfree truthsetsfree wrote:


I don't know if the few houses found in Nazareth are much evidence? My impression is that there is still little evidence that Nazareth was a "city" in Jesus' times.

Yeah, that's a very acute remark of yours. Nazareth is known to have appeared only in 2 century AD. But I won't be surprised if Catholic church has prepared another pile of falsified evidence for us in the eve of the holiday. The name of the Nazarean sect may give some wrong references to Nazareth, and Christians have skillfully used this misconception.


Edited by Novosedoff - 26 Dec 2020 at 04:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2020 at 04:32
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I don't have a right click function, but I'll bite.

I am not sure what you mean by "exist", do unicorns exist?  Do they really exist?  They probably "exist" on a level of reality that is more than just the mundane, every day reality.  They symbolize purity and love, and other things that make teenage girls get giddy.  Do you mean that there is no contemporary historical or archaeological evidence for Jesus?  Maybe so, but that is true of 99.9 % of the population at that time, at least not evidence that we can recognize.  (Someone must have built 'x' wall, but we have little or no evidence to attribute a "who" to that.)

Actually, I kinda see the ancient Jews as coming to bristle under Roman rule, think of it as a population that endlessly wanted to throw off Roman rule (and getting themselves killed in the process), inevitably a mutation would arise where a Jew would arise that would figure out how to go up against the irresistible force of the Roman Empire.  Jesus was the Jew who destroyed or at least transformed the Roman Empire.  He was the guppy who took on the whale, and won, sure, what 3-400 years later with the coming of Constantine.  but if it makes you feel good to doubt the stories, go ahead and do that;)

Well, my personal understanding is that there must have been some prototype to Jesus. There could have been more than 1 person, there could have been a few whose images combined laid the ground for further literary work carried out over the past centuries by a bunch of very talented writers. Most modern researchers claim that the characters of John the Baptist and James the Just were way more influential than Jesus back then.

But one thing is certain, as you pointed it, Jews were not  there to embrace Roman invaders with flowers. Likewise the Afghani people were waving to Soviet troopers just for the cameras of the daytime show, in the night time they behaved quite differently. Historically Jews of Palestine had had a much closer relationship with Persia and its culture by the time  of Romans troops arrival in Judea in the mid of 1 century BC.  Jews also knew about the defeat that Persians brought upon Roman army led by Crassus. This must have sparked some inspiration for local freedom fighters like Jesus.

I suppose, the Christianity as we know it today has very little common with the early catacomb type of Christianity  of forbidden sect in 1 century AD. Constantine turned it into the state-run religion.


Edited by Novosedoff - 26 Dec 2020 at 04:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2020 at 06:01
I think that there is continuity in religions.  Rabbinic Judaism is probably quite different than Israelite Temple religion, which is different from pre-Temple worship (high places) and Mosaic tradition, which is different from Hebrew religion of the Patriarchs.  Noah and/or Enoch etc. might represent some other stage.  Job and Jonah are written later, but may reflect some pre-Hebrew tradition as well.  Kind of like how Thor has fallen from Vahalla and become a Marvel Comic superhero. Wink

The Karaites and the Samaritans are kind of offshoots from the Judaic branch.  The Mandeans along the Euphrates Valley are, from what I have heard, followers of John the Baptist.  I don't know how or if they survived the Iraq War.  I've hear the name, James the Just, but I'll have to look it up.

Actually, there has been more martyrdom of Christians in the 20th century than in all other centuries (probably combined).  In some areas, the 'hiding in the catacombs' model might not be more useful than commonly thought.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 16:31
Quote Actually, I kinda see the ancient Jews as coming to bristle under Roman rule, think of it as a population that endlessly wanted to throw off Roman rule (and getting themselves killed in the process), inevitably a mutation would arise where a Jew would arise that would figure out how to go up against the irresistible force of the Roman Empire.  Jesus was the Jew who destroyed or at least transformed the Roman Empire.  He was the guppy who took on the whale, and won, sure, what 3-400 years later with the coming of Constantine.  but if it makes you feel good to doubt the stories, go ahead and do that;)
It wasn't Jesus. His career as a charismatic speaker doomed him regardless of his political action. He was transformed subsequently as a mythological figure by others, quite shamelessly. I think one needs to understand the context. Jesus emerges in history because he represents part of the radical objection to Roman rule - but bear in mind the Romans did not rule Judaea. As usual they left the native government in place with a Roman overseer. But despite being a relatively benign master, the greed and demands of Roman oversight were increasingly difficult for the Judaean population to bear.

So, at the first it's the radical and hot headed objection that gives rise to revolt. The First Jewish War centers around the zealots, acting as a parallel to modern terrorists. The Kitos War of the 2nd century is more of a popular revolt, involving Jews elsewhere in the empire besides Judaea. The Bar Kokhba revolt in Hadrian's day was directly because he wanted to replace a temple, creating the city of Aelia Capitolina instead of rebuilding Jerusalem. The imposition of a foreign religion was too much to bear.

In any case, although Christianity had become a popular religion in the later empire, so had other faiths. Mithras in particular was a great rival and both religions copied each other to attract worshippers in direct competition. But it was Constantine the Great who chose to patronise Christianity, not the Christians who won Rome over. Constantine offered land and wealth if the Christian sects got on board and developed a unified Roman religion. "The roads were filled with galloping bishops" Says Ammianus Marcellinus. Christianity won out the religious competition, not by spiritual superiority, but by a political deal and opportunities to get rich. How very Roman.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2020 at 20:15
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

In any case, although Christianity had become a popular religion in the later empire, so had other faiths. Mithras in particular was a great rival and both religions copied each other to attract worshippers in direct competition. 

Frankly, I doubt that Mithraism was ever close to challenging the Christianity in terms of the number of followers. Mithraism was a exclusive military club for army serges and twisted barracks emperors who liked to sit by the fire place with a glass of wine and skewered kebab, they didn't even bother to write any gospels or anything (at least as we know it now, because even if there were any docs, then Christians would have destroyed them for sure). The philosophy of Mithraists would be much closer to that of Greek Epicureans: enjoy your life today as much as you can for as long as you're alive, because you are a soldier, and tomorrow you may be dead. The size of Roman army never exceeded 450,000, which was no more than 1% of total population back in 211 under Caracalla. When Augustus ruled Rome, army's headcount was roughly about 250,000, which was more like 0.7% of empire's population. As far as Jews are concerned, their populace totaled about 10% of the empire's population, but not too many of them joined Christians. By 300 AD the number of Christians is estimated as 5-10% of empire's population, the lowest estimate I've seen in the literature was 3%. So this was definitely way above the size of Roman army, which apparently comprised not only Mithraists. 


Edited by Novosedoff - 27 Dec 2020 at 20:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 05:53
You have to realise that 4th century persecution by christians left much of the record wiped out. Earlier, Mithras was indeed a rival for worshippers loyalties. Also, the secret nature of the mystery religion never left much in the first place. The predominance of worship in the military was a hangover from past centuries rather than a constant state of affairs.

I note that Cassius Dio writes about the visit of Tiridates of Armenia to Rome where he told Nero that he saw him as the personification of Mithras (heck, that's flattery) from which the earlier popularity of Mithras is said to stem. Lewis Hopfe has noted that the majority of archaeology concerning Mithras is in Rome, not the provinces which would be the military centres of worship.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2020 at 20:24
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Also, the secret nature of the mystery religion never left much in the first place. 

Well, I am still rather skeptical about the nature of those mysteries and what they could be Smile  I can imagine Mithraists revealing the astronomical secrets of equinoxes or earth's axial precession to their new initiates, which apparently could raise some emotions in soldier's mind like "Holy sh*t! I never thought about it before" etc, but which also had little to do with soldier's daily duties. I personally take Mithraists as famous Dodo birds from the Ice age: both were doomed to extinction..




Edited by Novosedoff - 29 Dec 2020 at 15:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2020 at 04:04
Mithras appealed to soldiers, which I imagine were fairly separate from the general population and tended to not live to a ripe old age.  Christianity appealed to slaves and women, there were a lot more of those.  You seem to think that there was some kind of dishonesty promoting Christianity, maybe there was in some fashion, but I also think that Jesus was an exceptional individual and so the New Testament is a response wrestling with Jesus' exceptionalism and uniqueness.  I think that Jesus did not just blunder into getting himself executed and promoted by opportunistic followers after his death.  Martyrdom and opportunism do not sound like they should mix very well. 

I have to look up Kitos War,  Wikipedia mentioned three Jewish revolts in the Great Jewish Revolt page, but they skipped over Kitos War.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2020 at 05:18
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

You seem to think that there was some kind of dishonesty promoting Christianity, maybe there was in some fashion

I would slightly reword it. I tend to oppose monotheism in all its forms. I believe that monotheism is deeply corrupted ideology and one of the most disgusting things human kind ever came up with.

I have nothing against Jesus. I take him more as freedom fighter who fought against Roman occupants. He deserves respect just for that.


Edited by Novosedoff - 29 Dec 2020 at 05:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2020 at 09:31
I tend to see it as henotheism.  "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." which in itself does imply that there are other gods.  Ya just ain't supposed to pay attention to dem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2020 at 10:31
Quote Mithras appealed to soldiers, which I imagine were fairly separate from the general population and tended to not live to a ripe old age.  Christianity appealed to slaves and women, there were a lot more of those.  You seem to think that there was some kind of dishonesty promoting Christianity, maybe there was in some fashion, but I also think that Jesus was an exceptional individual and so the New Testament is a response wrestling with Jesus' exceptionalism and uniqueness.  I think that Jesus did not just blunder into getting himself executed and promoted by opportunistic followers after his death.  Martyrdom and opportunism do not sound like they should mix very well.

Mithras was a masculine religion that accentuated fraternity, exactly the sort of regime Legionaries were accustomed to. As regards survival, most of them had better rates of old age than the general public. Remember that three out of five Romans never reached the age of twenty one.

I don't see anything special about Jesus at all. The eastern provinces were a rich breeding ground of all sorts of religions, a few of which got exported such as early christian sects. There was another from Syria that was popular as an underground movement for slaves - can you imagine how risky that would be? As a charismatic preacher, Jesus did exactly what all the others before him did - attract attention, attract followers, and therefore got himself tagged as a potential threat to authority. So he joined the list of preachers that were gotten rid of to keep the peace.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2020 at 09:46
The world is different because of Christianity, and while it would have changed over time anyway, it would not have changed in the way it changed, without the rise of Christianity.  Now how much you attribute that to Jesus, is another question.  I think Paul was a formative early influence, but I also think that there had to be something there in the first place for Paul to work with.

We all are going to die someday, (except for me, I have decided I am not going to die), so that Jesus got himself killed off (and the cat came back, the very next day, the cat came back, thought he was a goner, but he wouldn't stay away), is not necessarily a point against him.  

Personally, I find Stalin and Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Rwanda, etc. to be repulsive.  Personally, I find the hymns about the infant king of the world to be wonderfully paradoxical.  Did his mama think he was a king when he had a temper tantrum and struck dead the neighbor kid?  If he truly was a man and god, then how was he in his terrible twos?  Some of the infant gospels deal with this more directly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2020 at 09:56
I don't know why you say Mithras, wikipedia says Mithra, not saying it is right and you are wrong, maybe there is an alternate spelling.

Also, I think that it is worthwhile mentioning that there is a Mitra in Vedic mythology.  Frank Cumont says they are from a common 'Indo-European' branch.  i find Cumont fun to read, he is old scholarship, but very clear and insightful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2020 at 23:10
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think Paul was a formative early influence, but I also think that there had to be something there in the first place for Paul to work with.

Btw there are equally as many doubts about Paul's existence as about Jesus' among modern researchers. 
What I think is crucial to remember is not what the real name of a historic person was and whether the person was all alone in his/her deeds or in fact followed by a number of disciples who shared the same destiny and fame. What's crucial is understanding of the ruthless logic of history: if there were invaders, there ought to be some resistance as well. If there were invaders, there ought to be also renegades who sought benefits for their cooperation. The first among renegades are always the ones who have something to lose, usually the most affluent and politically equipped, such as politicians, nobility, priests etc. The resistance is almost never born in the low classes of society, it is usually the destiny of someone from the upper-middle class who is well equipped/educated in order to be able to challenge the elites in their doings and who is well articulative in order to attract new followers among the low classes. Castro, Che Guevara, Vladimir Lenin etc there were all born to rather affluent families. So Jesus must have been from similar background as well, as Rodney Stark pointed it.  
The fact that Jesus was pain-in-the-arse for Romans and even more for their good friends Sadducee priesthood is evidenced by the fact that none of Jesus' 12 disciples died by own death (except, for John, I suppose), they all died violently. 


Edited by Novosedoff - 30 Dec 2020 at 23:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2020 at 10:20
The world is different because of Christianity? No, not at all. The world is different because the Roman Empire adopted Christianity. We're living in their shadow. It's they who set the template for imperialism and societal glory. However much you might want to be positive about Christianity, there's too much that's negative to ignore. 

Quote The fact that Jesus was pain-in-the-arse for Romans
The Romans don't seem to have been bothered by him. He barely gets a mention in the sources at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2020 at 16:10
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Quote The fact that Jesus was pain-in-the-arse for Romans
The Romans don't seem to have been bothered by him. He barely gets a mention in the sources at all.

As I understood, Romans wiped out the whole line of David, not just Jesus. Surely, they did it without much publicity. But would they be bothered to do all this if they were ok with Jesus and alike?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2021 at 00:57
i think that the line of David was wiped out by the Persians, during the time of exile.  The genealogy gets pretty muddy in the accounts of the individuals before Jesus.

The only writings of a pharisee that we have are the Pauline letters.  These are particularly important for Jews (not Jews for Jesus, not Messianic Jews) that study the New Testament as a source for late second temple period.  I think they would be surprised if you told them that Paul did not and had not existed.

I don't think you could have science without the unified view of nature provided by God's creation.  Oh sure, you can now have polytheists, and so forth that follow the path, and even come up with new trails, I just don't think you could have it develop the first time if, say, in weather, the North wind was one god (Boreas), and the east wind another (Zephyr).  Newton studied Jewish medieval material, along with his alchemical stuff. 
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Quote I don't think you could have science without the unified view of nature provided by God's creation.
What unified view would that be? If we give credit to God for creation then modern science runs into serious controversy for setting aside the Creation Myth. Science and religion have squabbled for the last five or six hundred years between those that want a rational extreme or a substantiation of faith and everything in between.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2021 at 22:20
Well, I agree that Jesus' pretension to being a member of the David's line is highly unlikely, but politically understandable claim. 

As for Paul's existence, I can give an example of such discussion on other historic forum where I no longer participate because of the poor quality of moderation (hopefully I won't be banned here for quoting something from the other forum):   

As for my personal view of Paul, I don't have doubts about Paul's existenсe, or lets put this way: I don't have doubts about the existence of the reformatory movement within Judaism that advocated deeper religious syncretism and cooperation with Romans. The name of the founder of such movement for me is not important. What is important is that the appearance of such movement fits well the political and economic reality of Judea back then. 

I ain't sure about the relevance of your remark about science to this discussion. Yes, I am of scientific background myself too, but my skepticism to any forms of religion, esp. monotheistic, developed only after I started to delve into the literature, and the more I delved into it, the less I became religious and more cautious about manipulation and hoax. 

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

i think that the line of David was wiped out by the Persians, during the time of exile.  The genealogy gets pretty muddy in the accounts of the individuals before Jesus.

The only writings of a pharisee that we have are the Pauline letters.  These are particularly important for Jews (not Jews for Jesus, not Messianic Jews) that study the New Testament as a source for late second temple period.  I think they would be surprised if you told them that Paul did not and had not existed.

I don't think you could have science without the unified view of nature provided by God's creation.  Oh sure, you can now have polytheists, and so forth that follow the path, and even come up with new trails, I just don't think you could have it develop the first time if, say, in weather, the North wind was one god (Boreas), and the east wind another (Zephyr).  Newton studied Jewish medieval material, along with his alchemical stuff. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2021 at 07:09
The issue is basically that Christianity specified answers to who we are and why we're here. Science has provided alternatives. As a basically conservative religion, one that has had a fair number of zealots and pious adherents (In Europe they even fought at least one war over which version of the Bible should be allowed), there were always people outraged by scientific suggestions that opposed biblical texts.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2021 at 08:50
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

(In Europe they even fought at least one war over which version of the Bible should be allowed).

Are you talking about the 30-years "religious" war? or what war of the following list would it be ?

I know there were a number of deaths of the reformists even within the Church. For instance, William Tyndale known for his late translation of the Bible from Latin to English (the first English translation is attributed to Wycliff, if I ain't mistaken) was burnt because of his opposition to King Henry VIII's multiple marriages.  In the Holy Roman empire Jan Hus of Prague was burnt too.  


Edited by Novosedoff - 02 Jan 2021 at 08:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2021 at 23:41
The Jan Hus execution was an odd one. He had after all tried to avoid having to conform by making an appeal directly to Jesus. That sort of guaranteed his fate, really.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 23:53
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

i think that the line of David was wiped out by the Persians, during the time of exile.  The genealogy gets pretty muddy in the accounts of the individuals before Jesus.

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/ebooklet/the-throne-of-britain/appendix-12-the-attempt-to-destroy-davids-lineage


Quote

Eusebius quoting Hegesippus.

Eusebius Book III, Chapters 11,12

CHAPTER XII.

"He also relates that Vespasian after the capture of Jerusalem gave orders that all that belonged to the lineage of David should be sought out, in order that none of the royal race might be left among the Jews; and in consequence of this a most terrible persecution again hung over the Jews."

Book III, Chapter XIX

"But when this same Domitian had commanded that the descendants of David should be slain, an ancient tradition says that some of the heretics brought accusation against the descendants of Jude (said to have been a brother of the Saviour according to the flesh), on the ground that they were of the lineage of David and were related to Christ himself. Hegesippus relates these facts in the following words."



Edited by Novosedoff - 04 Jan 2021 at 05:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 09:20
science is good for what, and how, not so sure that it is good for why.

If you have 1 creator, you also have 1 creation, two creators, two creations or a irreducible conflict in the one creation.  With one creator and 'his' goodness, you have the idea that creation is intelligible to reason.  There are a few other steps to get to modern science, but I hope that that is enough to show that modern science ultimately depends on a rational world view, that depends on a rational cosmos and a rational god.  Miracles and mysticism however, are not really a problem, although they may concern philosophers like David Hume.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2021 at 01:44
Well, Francisco, I suppose all of us, incl. yourself, have 2 creators Smile Rodney Stark also happened to share the idea of "rational God", although I personally find it risible, because as far as the Jewish Bible is concerned, the God is portrayed as complete Psycho which would probably have been prescribed electrotherapy in Soviet punitive psychiatry.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2021 at 11:27
But since God is a human invention (sorry, but he is, all deities are regardless of origin) he doesn't count. Belief in deities might, but that depends on what the religion of their worshippers preaches. The idea that a god creates a rational world is ridiculous to my mind. Religion has never been about rational thinking - nine times out of ten a religion wants to dictate what you think.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2021 at 13:18
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

But since God is a human invention (sorry, but he is, all deities are regardless of origin) he doesn't count. Belief in deities might, but that depends on what the religion of their worshippers preaches. The idea that a god creates a rational world is ridiculous to my mind. Religion has never been about rational thinking - nine times out of ten a religion wants to dictate what you think.

Unfortunately, both of us represent the minority in this crazy world Smile I suggest you see by yourself how bad things really are when it comes to counting the number of those who share the same vision of rationality with the Church  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_attendance#Attendance_by_country
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

All is left for us in order to stay alive is to pretend and stay away from the crowd

 



Edited by Novosedoff - 06 Jan 2021 at 23:25
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