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Did Jesus really exist?

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franciscosan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2021 at 04:19
There was a BBC story, maybe a year or so back, people in the same numbers believe in God, they just go for heresies rather than organized religion.  "Problem is" they want to believe in just anything, as long as it makes them feel good.  I think atheists who want to throw the baby out with the bathwater as a similar phenomenon.  Atheists on an individual level seem to be fairly moral, as far as societal atheism, I don't think one can avoid a fall into Hilter, Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot, or for that matter, on a highly watered down scheme, woke-ness and intersectionality (Marxism lite).  The goal seems to be to throw out Western Civilization, or anything resembling a robust civilization in general.

I am talking about Christianity and modern science historically.  There is a time period when there is the rise in modern science, 15th-8th century.  I don't think it could have happened without the rise in technology during the middle ages, (clock, plow, lens, bell, canon, waterwheel, maybe, sextant??, printing press??, I also don't think that it could have arisen with a unified view of creation, and a view that it was "good."  btw, Adam being told to name the animals is interpreted as a commandment to do science.  There is an approximation of pi in the Bible (3, it was out of date when the book it was written in, was written.)  But, of course, "we" are much smarter than "they" were.  We have a very high opinion about "us" and "progress" and our capabilities.
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caldrail View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2021 at 06:10
Well, I did see a tv doc somewhere where they pinpointed an area of the brain that controls our 'religious' responses. But about being smarter? People in the past were much the same as us aside from a different, usually less educated worldview. Roman writers for instance. Perhaps a little flowery in translation but their prose is full of subjective detail, observances of life and behaviour, moral and ethical philosophies.

The rise of technology happened because of communication. Without it, you get clever ideas here and there but little progress overall. James Burke once did a series called 'Connections' in which he built trails of technical innovation from an unlikely start to an even stranger result. I'm not completely sold on what he said - the idea is however based on passing ideas from place to place. 

For instance, Viking longships. We're told how good they were (despite a modern re-enactment rendering almost everyone on board as hopelessly seasick travelling from Norway to Ireland). Yet they bear considerable resemblance to earlier Saxon vessels, which were based on Roman ships, themselves based on Phoenician designs, possibly going right back to Egyptian originals. That's my observation of course rather than established history, but the idea of progress being someone taking an idea and improving it before exposing others to it is the earliest form of scientific communication. Now we send emails and all sorts of computer data. For us, science advances because of necessity (ie, war, or emergency), or simply because our modern education has become global.


Edited by caldrail - 09 Jan 2021 at 06:12
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2021 at 10:40
Your concern about Western civilization, Francisco, is groundless. It is currently the most  technologically advanced civilization on the planet, highly regarded by any Chinese or Russian who has a bit of knowledge of the history Smile

My personal disgust towards the Church has nothing to do with Western civilization, I just don't like to be manipulated by the crowd and its cheerful leaders, that's why I try to stay away from them. Any crowd is full of all sorta superstitions and non-sense, and I don't want to waste my time on something that seems boring to me, so I tend to think that I waste my time more productive if I stay out of the church with a book or at some other activity.

There was the medieval muslim sect of Isma'ilists. The way they taught  Islam to their chosen students may seem strange, but what they did was guiding their students through the study of Quran by pointing at contradictions it contains, so that was the way to teach students to become thoughtful, to instill critical thinking into them. Although I am myself not so knowledgeable about the  Bible, I do find pleasure in reading the books of someone who exhibits such thoughtful analytical approach.



I teach history to children, and I am proud that they leave my classes permeated with sh*t and hatred to meet the real world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2021 at 04:39
groundless?  What about demographics?  Luttwak has a good point, and it is not just for Russia.

If you don't like the church(es), that is fine, just don't talk as if you want a solution, a Wannsee conference solution.  I don't particularly see the church as representing/represented by the masses.  That is a myth of the mediocre-ly educated, who think of themselves as the "intellectual" elite.

As far as smarts is concerned, I think it was Jose Ortega Y Gassett (Revolt of the Masses) who said that the lows are higher, and the highs are lower these (1930s) days.  Jacque Ellul, a French Christian Anarchist writes about propaganda and points out that it is educated people that are more susceptible to propaganda
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2021 at 08:11
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

groundless?  What about demographics?  Luttwak has a good point, and it is not just for Russia.

If you don't like the church(es), that is fine, just don't talk as if you want a solution, a Wannsee conference solution.  I don't particularly see the church as representing/represented by the masses.  That is a myth of the mediocre-ly educated, who think of themselves as the "intellectual" elite.

As far as smarts is concerned, I think it was Jose Ortega Y Gassett (Revolt of the Masses) who said that the lows are higher, and the highs are lower these (1930s) days.  Jacque Ellul, a French Christian Anarchist writes about propaganda and points out that it is educated people that are more susceptible to propaganda

Well, clearly none of us here belong to the "intellectual elite" LOL If we were, we wouldn't be here ..

As for "churches representing the masses", I've given above a few wiki-links that highlight some statistics, such as church service attendance rates etc. Clearly, many countries, such as the UK, have relatively low attendance rates of about 10-15%, but this doesn't imply that they have  a high number of atheists in the society, as can be seen from the other wiki-article. So religion does have some reach even to those members of the society who do not attend the church. I don't see anything particularly bad about it, and even if I did they wouldn't care anyway Smile

Now as for demographics, that's clearly a very complicated issue to be discussed in the same thread with Jesus. But I think Europe might have spoiled its future demographic prospects relative to some other less advanced parts of the world back in 1914-1945 yet, because both WW1 and WW2 had had rather strong repercussions for further development. But what's happened to Europe has contributed to the growth of the US, wouldn't you agree with that? So the Western civilization is not so uniform in the end, many countries follow their own trail of development. Nowadays Europe's and US's political paths seem to diverge sometimes, so the US is becoming more cautious and susceptible to the changes. After all Europe has been the main investor for the US. But the US still has good demographic projections, despite its shrinking share of the white population. So if your concern is about the share of the white population, I think it is better to start the bottom-up investigation of this subj in a separate thread or perhaps somewhere else beyond this paltry forum. After all I ain't sure if you're aware of how miserable the life may seem to many millions of Chinese and Indians who spent all days long in the factories sewing clothes for western consumers:
https://ourworldindata.org/rich-poor-working-hours

If you start digging deeper into the subj, unexpectedly the demographic concerns may all come down to such basic things as inequality etc
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage


Edited by Novosedoff - 10 Jan 2021 at 10:34
I teach history to children, and I am proud that they leave my classes permeated with sh*t and hatred to meet the real world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2021 at 10:43
Quote  I think Europe might have spoiled its future demographic prospects relative to some other less advanced parts of the world back in 1914-1945 yet, because both WW1 and WW2 had had rather strong repercussions for further development. But what's happened to Europe has contributed to the growth of the US, wouldn't you agree with that
Well, yes, America did emerge from WW2 twice as wealthy than when it started with surpluses in steel, rubber, oil, grain, textiles, and so forth. But please note that central Europe did very well out of WW2 too thanks to the Marshall Plan. Sure, Europe was devastated by 1945, but the rebuild was to prevent another Weimar Republic. Britain on the other hand had to struggle on with a ruined economy. Hey, we're still here. The EU has just lost its second biggest contributor.

But I would still point out that european countries often pulled rabbits out of hats too. Look at modern Warsaw in Poland. It's a lovely city, full of characterful architecture and atmospheric streets. Yet it's a reconstructed city from scratch. The Poles took a razed ruin and restored the city themselves. It's things like that demonstrate the common will to set the past behind. Except Britain of course. According to a recent BBC article we're treating WW2 as the source of a new religion, something more relevant to the modern British than biblical stories. Not entirely convinced about that but fly a Spitfire overhead and we all gaze upward in a sort of quiet reverence.


Edited by caldrail - 12 Jan 2021 at 10:44
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2021 at 11:26
All I meant to say was this table from a book written by English-man. Check out the data for W.Europe and how it changed between 1913 and 2000.

This sorta makes one believe that, should there be another pan-European war, Europe is unlikely to remain competitive in the world.

As for Marshall plan, I remember Neill Ferguson in his "The ascent of money" highlighted some statistics for what it cost to the US to implement it. It usually takes me a couple of secs to find the relevant info,  because when I read a book I'd screenshot any pages that seem interesting and add a few meta-tags to facilitate further search. So what I see is in Russian, it says that the first year (1947) of Marshall plan took away 5.5% from the US GDP,  the following 4 years it took away 1.1% annually.

I ain't sure about your skepticism of the ruined UK economy. I lived 3.5 years in the UK, Britain is a beautiful country. Surely, economically things do change sometimes, causing us to take uneasy decisions, such as relocation etc. There have been an article published recently by Bank of England, which stated that 34% of mortgage takers in the UK are actually home-movers.






Edited by Novosedoff - 12 Jan 2021 at 11:34
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I see my personal historic mission in bringing madness to juvenile masses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2021 at 11:39
I teach history to children, and I am proud that they leave my classes permeated with sh*t and hatred to meet the real world.
I see my personal historic mission in bringing madness to juvenile masses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2021 at 12:04
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

The Poles took a razed ruin and restored the city themselves. It's things like that demonstrate the common will to set the past behind. Except Britain of course. According to a recent BBC article we're treating WW2 as the source of a new religion, something more relevant to the modern British than biblical stories. Not entirely convinced about that but fly a Spitfire overhead and we all gaze upward in a sort of quiet reverence.

Btw in Russia WW2 is also a special subject of annual worship if one recalls all those senseless old-fashioned military parades on the Red Square in Moscow in May, which usually gather thousands of gapers. If you check Russian social networks in those days, they go nuts with multiple re-postings of military photos. Most of those posters are skillfully created and driven by Russian state propaganda to instill the spirit of patriotism, I suppose. 
I teach history to children, and I am proud that they leave my classes permeated with sh*t and hatred to meet the real world.
I see my personal historic mission in bringing madness to juvenile masses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2021 at 09:30
Ah , but Russia is only really concerned with the Great Patriotic War, not WW2 as a whole. I imagine the period is hugely significant for the Russians in the same way the Battle of Britain is to us. Quite a different scale mind you, but that's circumstance.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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