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Do you love an evil historical person/figure?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pabbicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2009 at 00:55
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

I can only agree with Omar on the topic of Justinian II. To personally strangle the two men sent to kill you, and to cling so tightly to your survival that you and a group of followers steal a fishing boat to go and attempt a coup - well it is a stark contrast to someone like Emperor Maurice. It is just a same that after he regained the throne he did not redirect that energy and determination into something other than hell bent fury.

Hitler is another one who must receive grudging admiration. He came from nothing, ended up living on the streets, and yet through his own willpower, charisma and intellect he managed to make himself supreme leader of an important nation. Most people back then (and today still) tended to come from a background with power and money behind it if they wanted to achieve great political power. He was the son of an abusive minor bureaucrat and by his early 20s was living on the street with nothing and no one to help him.

If you've read his auto-biography, and can sift through the very thick propaganda covering up the actual personal information, you begin to see his situation differently from what most people understood. It was not only himself he had to support while living on the streets of Vienna, taking any of the few temporary jobs available to scrap together a life for himself and his younger sister, while attempting to gain for himself a level of higher education on top of it, that shows his determination in the face of overwhelming odds.

I give him more than grudging respect for his capability as a politician and force of will to reclaim Germany from a situation that was threatening to permanently end even it's noteworthiness. I don't respect all of his political views, but in the midst of all the things he is reviled for by many people, he did greatly improve the lives of those citizens whom his government deemed "worthy," who were, I must say, the vast majority.(With the generally accepted numbers, two or three million residents of Germany were victims of lethal persecution, while the remainder of the 85 million or so saw a great improvement in all areas of their lives, except perhaps their liberties, though given the circumstances of near constant war, and the general secrecy of the world at the early time of his reign, one can only make assumptions based on the available evidence as to how the German Nation would have continued in peace time.)

With this in mind, and I know a thousand people are going to jump onto this thread and squeal "NAZI NAZI NAZI NAZI JEW HATER!!" I would say he is worthy of much more respect than he is given in history. Especially considering reports of american brutality towards prisoners of war and even citizens of those nations they were at war with during the second world war, there are very few people capable of making any accusations against any nation without condemning them all. Even Britain, the supposed "good guys," are known by people who bother to look it up, for the horrendous atrocity that was the "Betrayal of the Cossacks." I don't, as well, believe I need to mention the nuclear attacks against primarily civilian targets, though it appears I have at any rate. Blast me and my confounded mind!



Edited by Pabbicus - 23 Oct 2009 at 00:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knives Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2009 at 04:54
Just new this forum would move in the direction of Hitler (Sigh) 

Try not to romanticize his time in poverty. It was for the most part of his own construction, and he'd likely still be in it if not for how much prestige he earned in the first World War. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pabbicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2009 at 05:43
The prestige from his experience in the Great War was hardly existent before it was played up by himself and his party while campaigning for office.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2009 at 05:47
Do not blame the Forum, but rather those with an interest for the macabre. The truly honest men of the 1920s and 30s well understood the evils facing their world and did not romanticize it in the least. For later generations to do so simply means they have failed to learn from history. The horror behind the Hitler narrative was not how evil the Fuhrer was but just how "respectable" his supporters were...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knives Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2009 at 07:00
Well, I for the life of me can't hate Otto Skorzeny, does that count? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2009 at 07:10
Originally posted by Knives Knives wrote:

Just new this forum would move in the direction of Hitler (Sigh) 

Try not to romanticize his time in poverty. It was for the most part of his own construction, and he'd likely still be in it if not for how much prestige he earned in the first World War. 
Hitler was charasmatic, perhaps the greatest Orator of the twentieth century, politically and physcially couragous, a fantastic politician. He would not have achieved what he did had he not had those qualities.
 
The thing about evil men is not that they lack admirable qualities, indeed they usually possess them in abundence, but how they use their talents.
 
Lots of people were anti-semetic, unfortunatly he was in a position to do something about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2009 at 08:47
I find Stalin much more fascinating that Hitler, as he had led a far more interesting life both in his youth and as a Soviet leader.

To begin with, he was a Georgian in Imperial Russia, a member of a subject nationality under the domination of the Russians.
As a child, he had aspired to become a priest and studied at the seminary; but during his spell at the seminary he converted to Marxism, and for organising several rebellions against the priests, was expelled. However, in his early years his ideology was still unclear divided between international communism and Georgian nationalism.

During his years as a revolutionary, he led a parallel life as a gangster; engaging in bank robberies, trade union extorsion, piracy, kidnappings, and intimidation to raise funds for the revolution; yet he was no mindless brute that alongside with the muscles he also had the brains and the ideas, converting hundreds of workers to the Marxist ideology through propaganda.
He was also in charge of hunting and excecutint Tsarist Okhranna agents infiltrated in the ranks of the Bolsheviks; and was as brutal to all those suspected of treason as he later was to dissidents in the USSR. Before 1917, he had been arrested and sentenced to exile more than 3 times, yet every time he managed to escape. As a man with an extraordinary ability to attract women; at almost every city where he set foot he had fathered a child.
In his 30s, he had already become in all definitions one of the most powerful and feared gangsters in the Transcaucasus; probably no less than American mobsters like Dutch Schultz or Lucky Luciano during the prohibition years.

During the Russian civil war he led the Red Army to fight against the Whites in the Transcaucasus where he committed large-scaled massacres on the peasants who refused to cooperate... and burnt the countryside to terrorise the peasants into submission.
These crimes..., of course, were relatively trivial compared to what was to be commited during the era of the great purges in the 1930s...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Birddog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2009 at 09:50
Question, would Octavian/Augustus be considered evil?
 
He killed alot of Knights and Senetors on the way to the top (along side Mark Anthony). He kept Rome under his control for over 40 years while maintaining the illusion of Republic. He was a master of propoganda, and had no problems ordering exercutions or exile for his enemies. He ended a long string of civil wars, and ruled Rome during a time of relative peace and prosperity. (I know someone will jump on all the wars his armies fought in Germany and Spain etc, but these were fought on the boarders of empire, not within the empire itself like the five civil wars that occured during the last hundred years of Republic.) He was not a nice man, and I find him facinating, but can he be considered evil?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2009 at 02:41
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Do not blame the Forum, but rather those with an interest for the macabre. The truly honest men of the 1920s and 30s well understood the evils facing their world and did not romanticize it in the least. For later generations to do so simply means they have failed to learn from history. The horror behind the Hitler narrative was not how evil the Fuhrer was but just how "respectable" his supporters were...
 
I guess it depends on the eye of the viewer, how he/she looks at it. As I said neither was he the first to kill thousands in the name of religion or race nor was the last.
Now it depends on how you portray his character, not putting yourself in the shoe of the oppressed but in oppressor.
 
I mean if any of my fellow Afghan read following lines, they will label me a traitor and an agent but the fact could not be concealed.
 
Zia ul Haq the person who brought the Mujahideen into existance and who was responsible for supporting the American backed Mujahideen in killings of 1000s of Afghans and establishing an environment in Afghanistan that is still not stable, maybe known as an EVIL for the Afghans but for sure he was the person who constructed today's Pakistan, though he established Pakistan with the blood of Afghans but what matters is YOUR OWN COUNTRY.
 
Same goes to Musharaf he too betrayed the Taleban and joined hands with Americans in their invassion of Afghanistan, another EVIL in eyes of Afghans but a hero to Pakistanis.
 
I admire both of the leaders for their service to THEIR own Nation but for sure hate them when I think as an Afghan.
So there are things regarding leaders and people which to some looks an Angel but to others an Evil, take the example of legend Mike Tyson they person who ON RECORD said "I will eat your childern".
I wish you got my point.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2009 at 02:47
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

I find Stalin much more fascinating that Hitler, as he had led a far more interesting life both in his youth and as a Soviet leader.

To begin with, he was a Georgian in Imperial Russia, a member of a subject nationality under the domination of the Russians.
As a child, he had aspired to become a priest and studied at the seminary; but during his spell at the seminary he converted to Marxism, and for organising several rebellions against the priests, was expelled. However, in his early years his ideology was still unclear divided between international communism and Georgian nationalism.

During his years as a revolutionary, he led a parallel life as a gangster; engaging in bank robberies, trade union extorsion, piracy, kidnappings, and intimidation to raise funds for the revolution; yet he was no mindless brute that alongside with the muscles he also had the brains and the ideas, converting hundreds of workers to the Marxist ideology through propaganda.
He was also in charge of hunting and excecutint Tsarist Okhranna agents infiltrated in the ranks of the Bolsheviks; and was as brutal to all those suspected of treason as he later was to dissidents in the USSR. Before 1917, he had been arrested and sentenced to exile more than 3 times, yet every time he managed to escape. As a man with an extraordinary ability to attract women; at almost every city where he set foot he had fathered a child.
In his 30s, he had already become in all definitions one of the most powerful and feared gangsters in the Transcaucasus; probably no less than American mobsters like Dutch Schultz or Lucky Luciano during the prohibition years.

During the Russian civil war he led the Red Army to fight against the Whites in the Transcaucasus where he committed large-scaled massacres on the peasants who refused to cooperate... and burnt the countryside to terrorise the peasants into submission.
These crimes..., of course, were relatively trivial compared to what was to be commited during the era of the great purges in the 1930s...

s
You forgot to include another of his great (for the WEST) accomplishment Shocked, that of DESTROYING the mainstream Communism and bringing up a neo-Communism aka Stalinism or a Red Fascism (stated by US).
 


Edited by Gharanai - 24 Oct 2009 at 02:49


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pabbicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2009 at 02:57
In my opinion, Stalin wasn't really a communist at all! He simply used the ideology and it's mass of ignorant, brainwashed radical followers to build the USSR into a modernised and powerful nation, and along with that, himself into an even more powerful man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2009 at 03:24
@ Pabbicus
Totally agreed upon, I too count him as the first person who demolished communism from Russia and was more like Alexander, a power and territory hungry guy who didn't follow/care for any law or idealogy.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2009 at 18:39
Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

@ Pabbicus
Totally agreed upon, I too count him as the first person who demolished communism from Russia and was more like Alexander, a power and territory hungry guy who didn't follow/care for any law or idealogy.


Was Alexander a hypocrite though? As far as I know he never preached freedom, love and happiness to justify his wars, and his only ideology was his naked ambition.
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2009 at 23:13
 
@ Reginmund
You are right with the naked ambition of Alexander and I guess that's way no one (or maybe so little people) call him an evil leader, as he was what he looked and say.
But still his hunger for power was way more than Stalin may have ever thought of (IMO) so that's why I matched him with Alexander as both of them were power hungry people with no respect to any code of conduct or idealogy.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pabbicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2009 at 03:10
The thing about the ancient world, in my opinion, is that it allowed people to have much larger ambitions than the modern world, perhaps due to the comparative ignorance in the world around them. For example, Stalin wanted to be the leader of the most powerful and feared nation on earth, I can assume. Alexander, however, wanted to be the ruler of the entire world and everyone in it, and as far as he knew, after defeating persia he was very close to that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2009 at 04:03
Vlad the impaler.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2009 at 15:46
Originally posted by Suren Suren wrote:

Vlad the impaler.

you love him!! really??


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cahaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2009 at 16:30
Wu Zetian.

She was cruel enough for me. Killed her own baby just to frame her rival.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pabbicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2009 at 16:56
Originally posted by azimuth azimuth wrote:

Originally posted by Suren Suren wrote:

Vlad the impaler.

you love him!! really??


He might have done some nasty things, but he kept the Turks out and made sure nobody could undermine his rule.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2009 at 17:50
Seems that the Turks throughout history have made a whole bunch of tyrants larger than life to this very day.

Do I love an evil Historical figure? That all depends on which side of the subjective fence I sit on. I would like to say no, for evil is just plain evil. But, taking into consideration that war is full of atrocities and leaders have knowingly led men to commit them than yes, I do have a few favorities.

I must put on my thinking cap to pick out a few.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2009 at 18:14
Originally posted by azimuth azimuth wrote:

Originally posted by Suren Suren wrote:

Vlad the impaler.

you love him!! really??


I don't love the guy, but I like the mystery around him and his cruel justice.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 21:38
I choose Reinhard Heydrich though I do not see him as evil I just placed him here. Though I think his significance is outstanding and what he achieved few can claim.As Reichsprotector of the bohemia and moravia he actually did a surprisingly effective at his assigned job and he was effective at running the part of the world from a National Socialist and day to day view. Truly a great man; he was considered by the allies as the most dangerous man in the Reich and many in Germany said yeah Himmler's got a brain its called Heydrich. He was also key in bring down the SA as he drew up the fake homosexuality and the fake "Rebellion".


Edited by Scourge - 16 Dec 2009 at 21:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ziegenbartami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 22:14
Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

I choose Reinhard Heydrich though I do not see him as evil I just placed him here.

You do realize that he chaired the Wannsee Conference in 1942, where it was decided that all European Jews would be worked to death or killed outright, don't you? Not to mention he was in charge of the Einsatzgruppen that killed countless thousands of Jews, Gypsies, etc. in occupied Soviet Union.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 00:55
Originally posted by Ziegenbartami Ziegenbartami wrote:

Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

I choose Reinhard Heydrich though I do not see him as evil I just placed him here.

You do realize that he chaired the Wannsee Conference in 1942, where it was decided that all European Jews would be worked to death or killed outright, don't you? Not to mention he was in charge of the Einsatzgruppen that killed countless thousands of Jews, Gypsies, etc. in occupied Soviet Union.
Yes I do realize all of these things Ziegen but it still doesn't change the fact that the guy was a German and a National Socialist hero, an effective leader and effective at his job. He fought for what he believed in I think had he lived the outcome of the war would have been different. He fought hard for what he believed in and was a great man in my personal opinion. He was a family man, loyal, tough, a warrior and a good politician. He may have orchestrated the holocaust and ran the einsatzgruppen but that in my opinion is a testament to his character rather than him being this evil mad man.


Edited by Scourge - 17 Dec 2009 at 02:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ziegenbartami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 15:01
Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

Yes I do realize all of these things Ziegen but it still doesn't change the fact that the guy was a German and a National Socialist hero, an effective leader and effective at his job. He fought for what he believed in I think had he lived the outcome of the war would have been different. He fought hard for what he believed in and was a great man in my personal opinion. He was a family man, loyal, tough, a warrior and a good politician. He may have orchestrated the holocaust and ran the einsatzgruppen but that in my opinion is a testament to his character rather than him being this evil mad man.

How would the outcome of the war have  been any different? After the invasion of the Soviet Union in June of 1941, it was only a matter of time until the massive weight of Soviet industry could be brought to bear upon the Third Reich.
Furthermore, had he survived the war, he would've hung on the gallows along with von Ribbentrop, Keitel, and the rest for his role in the Holocaust.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 15:28
No, I detest every single person who willfully inflicts suffering and pain on others regardless of when he or she did it.  And I think people who use 'historical context' and similar bullsh*t to excuse their admiration for such individuals might be a little neuropathic or worse, psychopathic to overlook such crimes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 15:30
Heydrich was so effective at destroying partisans that everywhere he went they were virtually destroyed and his next destinations were France and Russia. Lets say Heydrich got transferred to France in the early spring of 43 and starts working on destroying the French resistance and running the SS and SD in the region. He would have effectively destroyed the French resistance that did everything it could to ensure D-Day happened. With Heydrich also running things when the D-Day invasion happening. He could have effectively destroyed the French resistance and took command and directed troops in the beginning initial hours of the battle when they got no orders. So yes he could have changed the outcome of the war and yes history would have been different. Don't ever look back at history and under estimate the man. If you ever wanted to learn how to effectively run a killing squad or hunt down enemies of the State hes the man you read about. Thats all he did.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

No, I detest every single person who willfully inflicts suffering and pain on others regardless of when he or she did it.  And I think people who use 'historical context' and similar bullsh*t to excuse their admiration for such individuals might be a little neuropathic or worse, psychopathic to overlook such crimes.


To say I'm a psychopath is a little crazy in my opinion. Whats neuropathic anyways? Though on a side note I'm not looking over anything. I understand full well what Heydrich did it still doesn't mean he wasn't a great man.


Edited by Scourge - 17 Dec 2009 at 15:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 15:38
The epitome of evil is the packaging of an abomination as Joe Swellfellow! All of this blather about Reinhard Heydrich would be hilarious were it not reflective [not in the sense of thought but in terms of mirroring] of some distasteful personal attributes. What next confession of nazi tatoos!?!
 
Heydrich was a cold, calculating womanizer with a rather petty character...he's lucky the Czechs got to him quickly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 15:40
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

The epitome of evil is the packaging of an abomination as Joe Swellfellow! All of this blather about Reinhard Heydrich would be hilarious were it not reflective [not in the sense of thought but in terms of mirroring] of some distasteful personal attributes. What next confession of nazi tatoos!?!
 
Heydrich was a cold, calculating womanizer with a rather petty character...he's lucky the Czechs got to him quickly.

I'm not a Nazi though some of the socioeconomic and job building projects were actually decently ran. As well was there stance on unions. Though I do not believe in the ideas of racial superiority nor do I have distasteful attributes. What I did what not packing Heydrich as a great guy nor was it the epitome of evil.


Edited by Scourge - 17 Dec 2009 at 15:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2009 at 15:51
And Mussolini made Italian trains "run on time" (NOT!)!!!  If anything, Heydrich was the personification of Mass Man in action..."building projects decently ran"! TAURUS FOECES!
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