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Do you love an evil historical person/figure?

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drgonzaga View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 21:37
Sir, I do not agree that any disagreement exists here for your utterance of a rather disagreable supposition has run into an agreed upon well merited chastisement.
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 06 Jan 2010 at 21:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 02:50
Not sure what "evil" actually means but I admire Napoleon Bonaparte. I admire his imagination and confidence and his excited childish nature.

I also admire Tamer the Lane; he would built towers from skulls but still, he was such a capable general and statesman. He would have converted the Chinese to Islam if he had lived longer. I wonder what would have happened then!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 05:07
Originally posted by Batu Batu wrote:

Not sure what "evil" actually means but I admire Napoleon Bonaparte. I admire his imagination and confidence and his excited childish nature.

I also admire Tamer the Lane; he would built towers from skulls but still, he was such a capable general and statesman. He would have converted the Chinese to Islam if he had lived longer. I wonder what would have happened then!
 
No problem with either figure Batu because in a sense these identifications stand at the bottom of the original proposal for the thread. In terms of contemporary Europe in the years 1790-1815, both the French Revolution and the career of Napoleon Bonaparte were looked upon as evils threatening civilization. Certainly, Napoleon was no saint in his personal relationships (although he was always kind to his mother because he was scared of the old girl anyway). Besides, much the same can be said of Attila. Likewise Timur Khan (or the Lame, if you wish) was not the embodiment of intrinsic evil--even with the head episode [which I always find humorous since it is sort of a throwback to ancient times as with the Egyptians piling the penises of their enemies in a heap as trophies)Evil Smile. That we were thrown into a tizzy by someone throwing Heydrich into the discussion should not act as a discouragement since all proposals need to stand upon evidence that substantiates the reason for admiration. People admire Thomas Jefferson although as a human being he was both cad and hypocrite!


Edited by drgonzaga - 14 Jan 2010 at 05:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 10:58
I don't see the problem with Scourge's admiration for Heydrich within the context of this thread. Seeing as this is a thread about "evil" historical figures, he couldn't very well proclaim his love for Mother Theresa. If you put aside morality it's obvious Heydrich was both committed and highly competent in his job; extermination. If he worked for a different cause or the Nazis won the war I'm convinced he'd be remembered as a German hero today.
 
Second the moral self-righteousness that erupted in this thread with Scourge's posts is quite pathetic. I don't know anything about Heydrich's personal commitment to Nazism, but if he worked hard and competently for a cause he believed in I don't think we should be so absorbed in our own perspectives we can't appreciate the efforts of those who differ. This at least is how I relate to people who are in opposition to my own ideals but who still deserve some recognition for their level of skill and dedication, like the Nazis, the Soviets, Muslim terrorists and a number of other groups.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 11:52
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

I don't see the problem with Scourge's admiration for Heydrich within the context of this thread. Seeing as this is a thread about "evil" historical figures, he couldn't very well proclaim his love for Mother Theresa. If you put aside morality it's obvious Heydrich was both committed and highly competent in his job; extermination. If he worked for a different cause or the Nazis won the war I'm convinced he'd be remembered as a German hero today.
 

Second the moral self-righteousness that erupted in this thread with Scourge's posts is quite pathetic. I don't know anything about Heydrich's personal commitment to Nazism, but if he worked hard and competently for a cause he believed in I don't think we should be so absorbed in our own perspectives we can't appreciate the efforts of those who differ. This at least is how I relate to people who are in opposition to my own ideals but who still deserve some recognition for their level of skill and dedication, like the Nazis, the Soviets, Muslim terrorists and a number of other groups.

I'd rather use the opposite argument: there is no light side to Heydrich because he was dedicated to his job and beliefs, but rather does Heydrich shows what a horrible dark side dedication had. Personally I distrust anybody who is extremely committed to a cause, even if it is a cause I agree with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 12:26

"Light" and "dark", "good" and "evil", these concepts are religious in nature and have no existence beyond how people prefer to define them. For the Nazis, the people Heydrich killed were the "horrible dark side" and his actions were morally sound. My point however was that if we ignore such moral dualism, which is always tendentious whether used by the Nazis or our contemporaries, it's possible to appreciate a skilled individual for his/her competence regardless of the cause.

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Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2013 at 19:02
He is second At 60 million of his own not counting those who fell in his amry due to poor leadership
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