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Dongyi, eastern people

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eaternize View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 Nov 2010 at 20:19

Most of my life, I have been told I am Han Chinese, and now with people from PR China, they are very proud to be Han and says we are all Han Chinese, supposedly 99.9% of Chinese are Han. But I have always suspected that maybe I am not Han chinese, I see myself relate more to Mongolia and maybe even Japan/Korea than pure Han Chinese. There seems to be some distinct differences between us that are from ShanDong, and I don't feel I look that Han chinese. Recently met a guy from ShanDong, and it made me realise that culture in ShanDong is distinct to the general Han chinese culture. Like people of our ancestry were relatively stronger and valued bravery greatly. Like the popular story being passed down in China about a man killing a tiger with his bare hands is acturally from ShanDong, and the ideas more specific to the culture of this eastern part of China.

Anyway the only information I could get are from the internet. I have found we are most probably of Dongyi ancestry, that it is the home of confucious and there are differences between the different kingdoms in ancient China. Like one of the first and also the very last king dom in ancient China (Qi and Qing) were ruled by Dongyi people. If so, where have all the Dongyi people gone? I also wonder if Dongyi people have any mongolian blood in them.
 
I think it is probably fair to say that most people in China are not pure Han Chinese and alot of them would be of different ancestry, i.e. there are still telltell differences in appearances of Chinese from different areas in China. So maybe most of us are not Han regardless of what China may have us believe. Although Chinese of different ethnicities can be very similar, there are also differences between us and different things we are good at. So I think it is helpful for people to know where they came from. Like the Dongyi people are supposedly very creative and brave. And the Han are superior at politics. It is never a good idea to forget culture, and it is unfortunate how communism is hindering that part of China, that most people growing up in modern China have little clue to genuine Chinese culture. I wonder how the Han manage to overpopulate China, when in some texts it is said the people of different major ancestries (north, south, west, east) in ancient China were of roughly similar numbers.
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Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 00:06

I have never considered 'Han' to be a single ethnic group, rather more of a political affliation. How can people from Guangdong, Sichuan, Fujian, and Hebei, who have different food, different culture, and different language be the same ethnic group? The only thing they share is they've been under the same political system for most of the last 2200 years.

My guess is that Han identity originates from the Han Dynasty (unless they're completely unrelated words with different tones ). Any "chinese" who identified with the Han Dynasty became Han chinese.

 

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lirelou View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 03:56
And, of course, the Koreans are 'pure' Han, according to them, writing a Han language in Han letters (Hangul) on the banks of the Han river, under the flag of the greater Han republic (Dae Han Min Guk). One suspects that the meaning of 'Han' may have changed over the past several thousand years, but it is certainly interesting to find the term applied to so many East Asian peoples.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 05:13
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

And, of course, the Koreans are 'pure' Han, according to them, writing a Han language in Han letters (Hangul) on the banks of the Han river, under the flag of the greater Han republic (Dae Han Min Guk). One suspects that the meaning of 'Han' may have changed over the past several thousand years, but it is certainly interesting to find the term applied to so many East Asian peoples.
 
Korean Han character 韓 is totally different from Chinese Han character 漢. Although the transcription it may sound similar for the Western year, but these are two different words which are pronounced with different tones 2nd tone for the Korean Han and 4th tone for the Chinese Han.
 
These words are totally unrelated and according to one version Korean Han is a congate of an Altaic Khan i.e. ruler/king. Also in modern Korean has a meaning of "great" besides also having a general meaning of "Korean."
 
There was Han kingdom in ancient China warring states period which was written with the same character, but that doesn't mean that that kingdom was somehow related to Korea. Chinese chronists just used that familiar (to them) character to express similarly sounding barbarian "Han" name/toponim from the Korean peninsular. That is a common practice in Chinese language when characters with different meaning but similar sound are used to express foreign words pronouncation.
 
However, due to the incorporation of Korea into the Chinese civilizational universe, which apriori also included the use of Chinese language, Han character was adobted by Koreans as a designation for themselves.
 
Here is more about Korean Han.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 05:25
Originally posted by eaternize eaternize wrote:

 
I think it is probably fair to say that most people in China are not pure Han Chinese and alot of them would be of different ancestry, i.e. there are still telltell differences in appearances of Chinese from different areas in China.
 
Han is anything, but not a common "blood ancestry." Han is about culture. Chinese never emphasized blood ancestry, but were willing to recognize anyone who accepted their culture. So, of course modern Han have different ethnic groups as their ancestors, yet they all are united by one common culture.
 
It is common knowledge in China itself that different groups of Hans (Hakka, Cantonese, Teochew, Shangdonese, Dongbei ren (people of North-East of China) etc.) have different features and characters, like the most common stereotype is that Southerners are better merchants and more tricky and Northerners are better warriors and more direct and there is a hell of prejudices, stereotypes even a history of bloody historical confronations between different groups of Han.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaternize Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 10:46

I don't think Han is about culture. The Chinese from China claim that most other ethnic bloods have been mixed with the Han and so mainly Han blood remains.

Besides the five thousand years Chinese history was contributed by different ethnic groups that each ruled different dynasties in ancient China.
IF you look into past history, the Han dynasties were not very creative. They were very corrupt and had claimed much things that originated from other dynasties.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 14:50
Originally posted by eaternize eaternize wrote:

I don't think Han is about culture. The Chinese from China claim that most other ethnic bloods have been mixed with the Han and so mainly Han blood remains.

That is just a modern claim that at the same time can't be really disproved either, since as soon as other people adobted Han culture they would change their names into Han names, use Han geneology tablets and do the Han style ancestor worship. It's simply impossible, to prove their real origins 100%, except there are many indications in antropology, language, phenotype, etc. pointing at the "non-Han" origin.
 
There are people in Taiwan that became Han only during the last 150 years. Some of them still remember their "foreign origin" but that wouldn't survive for another generation.
 
Hun culture is very strong.
 
Originally posted by eaternize eaternize wrote:

Besides the five thousand years Chinese history was contributed by different ethnic groups that each ruled different dynasties in ancient China.
 
Yes, and most of those groups simply were culturally assimilated by Han and that is happenning every day. Just during the last century a big ethnicity of Manchu disappeared. Some people still claim Manchu ancestry having a 0 clue about Manchu language and culture, but that will be fixed complitely in 1 generation.
 
Originally posted by eaternize eaternize wrote:

IF you look into past history, the Han dynasties were not very creative. They were very corrupt and had claimed much things that originated from other dynasties.
 
You can't generilize like that. Some of them were very corrupt, some were advaced. But the last non-Han Manchu dynasty was also notorious for corruption and incompetence...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 16:01
Easternize and Sarmat:  I have seen the '5000' years of history claimed by China and Korea challenged in some archeological circles. While no one disputes that many of the peoples inhabiting modern China and Korea have roots in the area that go back that far, and further, the argument is that their modern states do not have such a continuous unbroken chain. If memory serves, the best that China could do would be 3,700 years (which still places them #1 worldwide) with Korea going back only 1700 to 2200 years. The current Korean National Museum, of course, begs to differ.

Sarmat, thank for the clarification on the tones. Another argument in favor of the accuracy of the Chinese writing system. I once asked a Korean co-worker what a specific place name meant. He stated that he couldn't tell me because the Korean name was based upon the pronunciation of the original Chinese characters, and that the genius of Chinese writing was that you would not become confused by homonyms or homophones, as such would be written in different characters. In Mr. Choe's words: My grandfather could have told you, but I can't.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 17:47
I, actually, wrote the different characters for Chinese and Korean Han, but, unfortunately, they aren't visible.
 
Second attempt
 
Korean han

hán

 
Or better I'll give the link
 
 
Chinese han

hàn



Edited by Sarmat - 01 Dec 2010 at 17:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 17:54
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Easternize and Sarmat:  I have seen the '5000' years of history claimed by China and Korea challenged in some archeological circles.  
 
Challenged? In fact that isn't proved at all. Chinese 5000 is a poor mystical number from the traditional Chinese historyography which goes to the ancient times when gods ruled the Earth...
 
But at least for China, as you righly noted, we have some archeological proofs that support the existence of Shang dynasty which makes China at least 3000 + ancient. Which is already very impressive.
 
Korean 5000 years of history is pure nonsense...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 00:44
Sarmat, thank you for those two links. Interesting. Perhaps in my next life I'll learn Chinese.As for my use of 'challenged', well it is correct (that they have challenged such views) and it does prevent me from getting in long exchanges with the true believer nationalists who accept such. The Korean version likewise depends upon accepting 1,800 years of rule by a celestial being, if Tangun (Dangun) can be called such. Heck, even the North claims a dna link between the Kim clan of the current rulers, and Tangun.


Edited by lirelou - 02 Dec 2010 at 00:44
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