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dump on Trump

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2016 at 03:12
Quote  If workers in Australia, and other western countries, did decide to compete with Asian wages, what would that do to the economies in question, and to their societies? A manufacturing worker in China may make something around 300-400/month. Even if we say western workers could still top that with greater productivity, we would still see a wrenching change in what was considered to be the norm in recent times.

I agree with what you infer. If it was simply a case of wage increases that may not be so bad, but employers also have to contend with claims for shorter working hours with no corresponding increase in productivity.

I'm not saying that employees should not enjoy the fruits of their labour, simply telling it like it is. It's my understanding that Australian workers have working conditions and pay equal to the best in the world.

In my old job, we had eight weeks leave per year, three months Long Service Leave and by way of a negotiation with the employer, up to about two years Sick Leave (this was arrived at by way of a Sick Leave Bank where every member donated one day per year, to be drawn upon by the sick/injured worker) and now there's Maternity and Paternity Leave as well. From what I've been told, in the US police get an average of about 28 days Annual Leave. (Of course this isn't the same for industry but just an example of what I'm talking about). Note that all workers qualify for the Maternity/Paternity Leave.

On top of that, the country has a pretty generous Welfare System as well as a Public Health System.

But, we digress. The OP was about "dumping" on Donald Trump.  Smile






Edited by toyomotor - 21 May 2016 at 03:15
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2016 at 01:01
China has become less competitive in the textiles business, with work switching over to Vietnam or Bangladesh.  The concern of a company is to make _a_ profit, if a company feels that they can by improving things otherwise, then some will return to the US.  I generally avoid buying Chinese goods, not because they're Chinese, but because sometimes you have to worry about toxic paint or dog food.  I don't want to worry about poisoning my dog, and I imagine that for some Chinese manufacturers, a client would have to worry more about quality control.  Also, the Chinese have, shall we say, a lax attitude towards copyright.  It might just be easier for a company to deal with a nation that shares the same language and legal code that they have, plus not having to go half way around the world to inspect plants, dealing with pollution, a fairly closed society, and general strangeness (from US perspective).  But to know whether investment here or there is worthwhile, one has to be engaged in the matter, looking at the pluses and the minuses.  Some of those pluses and minuses are tangible and concrete economic considerations, but others are intangibles.  I imagine that the whole issue is quite complex for those who are weighing their options.  
Donald Trump, however, like everything he talks about treats it as if it is a simple white hats versus the black hats.  Either he knows that things are complicated, and he is pandering to the lowest common denominator, or he really believes things are simplistic and his accompanying ignorance and arrogance will get us into more trouble than it will solve.



Edited by franciscosan - 22 May 2016 at 01:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2016 at 01:56
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote  If workers in Australia, and other western countries, did decide to compete with Asian wages, what would that do to the economies in question, and to their societies? A manufacturing worker in China may make something around 300-400/month. Even if we say western workers could still top that with greater productivity, we would still see a wrenching change in what was considered to be the norm in recent times.

I agree with what you infer. If it was simply a case of wage increases that may not be so bad, but employers also have to contend with claims for shorter working hours with no corresponding increase in productivity.

I'm not saying that employees should not enjoy the fruits of their labour, simply telling it like it is. It's my understanding that Australian workers have working conditions and pay equal to the best in the world.

In my old job, we had eight weeks leave per year, three months Long Service Leave and by way of a negotiation with the employer, up to about two years Sick Leave (this was arrived at by way of a Sick Leave Bank where every member donated one day per year, to be drawn upon by the sick/injured worker) and now there's Maternity and Paternity Leave as well. From what I've been told, in the US police get an average of about 28 days Annual Leave. (Of course this isn't the same for industry but just an example of what I'm talking about). Note that all workers qualify for the Maternity/Paternity Leave.

On top of that, the country has a pretty generous Welfare System as well as a Public Health System.

But, we digress. The OP was about "dumping" on Donald Trump.  Smile





And yet....productivity is undoubtedly up in the modern world, drastically so in many cases. Hence making an assumption that workers could work less, or, if not be paid more seems a reasonable stance to take...does it not?

You have described good benefits, often the very ones that unions have extracted, sometimes at great difficulty. This is what makes for a livable, stable, egalitarian, worthwhile society. Do you think that it is worth chucking these sort of things because cheaper goods are available from Asia, and so we should trade societal values for $5 t-shirts, so to speak?

These are difficult questions, but when I hear about people being asked to compete globally, I have a sense of impending doom.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2016 at 01:57
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

China has become less competitive in the textiles business, with work switching over to Vietnam or Bangladesh.  The concern of a company is to make _a_ profit, if a company feels that they can by improving things otherwise, then some will return to the US.  I generally avoid buying Chinese goods, not because they're Chinese, but because sometimes you have to worry about toxic paint or dog food.  I don't want to worry about poisoning my dog, and I imagine that for some Chinese manufacturers, a client would have to worry more about quality control.  Also, the Chinese have, shall we say, a lax attitude towards copyright.  It might just be easier for a company to deal with a nation that shares the same language and legal code that they have, plus not having to go half way around the world to inspect plants, dealing with pollution, a fairly closed society, and general strangeness (from US perspective).  But to know whether investment here or there is worthwhile, one has to be engaged in the matter, looking at the pluses and the minuses.  Some of those pluses and minuses are tangible and concrete economic considerations, but others are intangibles.  I imagine that the whole issue is quite complex for those who are weighing their options.  
Donald Trump, however, like everything he talks about treats it as if it is a simple white hats versus the black hats.  Either he knows that things are complicated, and he is pandering to the lowest common denominator, or he really believes things are simplistic and his accompanying ignorance and arrogance will get us into more trouble than it will solve.


Some good questions. I suspect that it is a bit of both. Trump is a cynic playing to the unwashed masses, but is probably no rocket scientist himself, and certainly no commendable example of our human species, after being documented making various racial and sexist slurs, making light of violence, and generally projecting a low brow, good 'ol boy from the swamp persona. 

Clinton also tries for the lowest common denominator, attempting to drop her "g's" (you all haven' a great time?), but at what seems a great effort for her, not being a natural actress. Trump seems to slide into that sort of stuff naturally.


Edited by Captain Vancouver - 22 May 2016 at 02:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2016 at 03:05
Quote
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote  If workers in Australia, and other western countries, did decide to compete with Asian wages, what would that do to the economies in question, and to their societies? A manufacturing worker in China may make something around 300-400/month. Even if we say western workers could still top that with greater productivity, we would still see a wrenching change in what was considered to be the norm in recent times.

I agree with what you infer. If it was simply a case of wage increases that may not be so bad, but employers also have to contend with claims for shorter working hours with no corresponding increase in productivity.

I'm not saying that employees should not enjoy the fruits of their labour, simply telling it like it is. It's my understanding that Australian workers have working conditions and pay equal to the best in the world.

In my old job, we had eight weeks leave per year, three months Long Service Leave and by way of a negotiation with the employer, up to about two years Sick Leave (this was arrived at by way of a Sick Leave Bank where every member donated one day per year, to be drawn upon by the sick/injured worker) and now there's Maternity and Paternity Leave as well. From what I've been told, in the US police get an average of about 28 days Annual Leave. (Of course this isn't the same for industry but just an example of what I'm talking about). Note that all workers qualify for the Maternity/Paternity Leave.

On top of that, the country has a pretty generous Welfare System as well as a Public Health System.

But, we digress. The OP was about "dumping" on Donald Trump.  Smile





And yet....productivity is undoubtedly up in the modern world, drastically so in many cases. Hence making an assumption that workers could work less, or, if not be paid more seems a reasonable stance to take...does it not?

You have described good benefits, often the very ones that unions have extracted, sometimes at great difficulty. This is what makes for a livable, stable, egalitarian, worthwhile society. Do you think that it is worth chucking these sort of things because cheaper goods are available from Asia, and so we should trade societal values for $5 t-shirts, so to speak?

These are difficult questions, but when I hear about people being asked to compete globally, I have a sense of impending doom.

Don't forget the intrusion of technology in many industries. This has had the effect off increasing productivity while at the same time replacing human workers.

I don't know the answers, and I'm not a union basher but I feel that there has to be a balance of demands versus productivity. Perhaps, as some businesses have done, employees sharing the profits of their labours is the answer, I just don't know.

Getting back to Trump, and not knowing all the nuances of the American voters selection criteria, all we see in Australia is his rantings and ravings about females, migrants etc. Granted, we are the slaves of the media to a certain extent, but from what we see, if it is all true, I would have grave fears for America if he were elected.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2016 at 06:16
"Getting back to Trump, and not knowing all the nuances of the American voters selection criteria, all we see in Australia is his rantings and ravings about females, migrants etc."

Honestly I have grave concerns for America if Hillary or Bernie are elected.  The first is a manipulator and the second thinks we should have a gifting economy.  I have abandoned the left because frankly it has gotten crazier than Trump.

Here is everything you need to know about Trump

Donald John Trump, was born June 14, 1946.
> He will be 70 years old on election day.
> From the Internet, he is 6'2" or 6'3' and weighs between 195 and 200 lbs.
> He has a full head of blond/brown hair (which is long and elaborately
> combed) and blue eyes.
> The Internet tells us he wears a size 12 shoe.
>
> Donald Trump was born the fourth of five children who were born over
> eleven years.
> The oldest, Mary Ann, was born in 1937 and is currently a Federal Judge.
> His older brother, Fred Jr, died in early adulthood as a result of
> complications from alcoholism.
> He has another older sister, Elizabeth and a younger brother, Robert.
> Donald Trump has been married three times.
> Trump's first wife, Ivana, was an immigrant from Czechoslovakia and a
> divorcee who has been married 4 times in her life. She is a life long
> avid skier and worked in design at the Trump Organization.
> Marla Maples, Trump's second wife is an actress and model
> Trump's third wife, Melania is an immigrant from Slovenia (born in
> Yugoslavia) and has been a super model.
> Two of Trump's children, Donald Jr and Ivanka, have gone to Penn. Son
> Eric, went to Georgetown.
> Donald Trump tells us that he is Presbyterian.
> Donald Trump does not appear to have had any interest in occults,
> mysticism or exotic mythologies.
> Donald Trump's oldest daughter, Ivanka, and her three children are
> Jewish.
> Trump's oldest daughter, Ivanka, is married to Jared Kushner who is,
> among other things, a newspaper publisher. The Kushner family is very
> successful in New York City area real estate.
> Donald's grandmother, mother, first wife, and third wife are all
> immigrants.
>
Donald Trump was born and raised in Queens NY
> Though his family was very wealthy, Trump's boyhood home in the Jamaica
> Estates section of Queens was not a grand mansion. The Trump home was a
> larger version of the homes Fred Trump was building for his tenants.
> There are no indications that the Trump family lived among the wealthy
> elites on vacations or country clubs.
> Queens is the largest of New York's five boroughs and the most ethnically
> diverse.
> Trump attended a local private day school, the Kew Forrest School, in
> Queens until about 8th grade.
> His secondary schooling was at New York Military Academy which is about
> 60 miles north of NYC in Cornwall on the Hudson. He was the class of
> 1964.
> Trump was never a "Preppie".
> Trump never embraced any aspect of the "Hippie" movement of the time.
> Trump was a very good high school athlete - football, soccer, and
> especially baseball. He had potential to become a professional baseball
> player.
> Even in high school - Trump liked women and women liked him
> Trump was generally popular in high school.
> Trump's boarding school room mate liked him.
> He attended Fordham University in NYC for two years and transferred to
> the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business.
> At that time, the Wharton School offered a rare program for Real Estate
> Business.
> Though he was of age, Donald Trump did not serve in Vietnam.
> He was not drafted due to bone spurs in his heels (4F) and also student
> deferments.
> Ultimately, in the draft lottery, he drew a high number.
>
By all we know, Donald Trump does not smoke, drink or use recreational
drugs. He'll be the first President in more than 25 years who hasn't
smoked weed
BTW: Trump's children don't smoke or drink
> Trump makes it well known that he enjoys sexual interaction with women.
> I am unaware that Donald Trump is a recreational gambler.
> His doctor publicly announced Donald to be in excellent health.
>
>
>I think that to really know Donald Trump, you must know his family
>background.
>
>
The Trump family story is a very American story.
> Trump family history - concise version.
>
> Donald Trump's grandparents immigrated to the U.S. from Alsace
> (Kallstadt, Germany) which throughout history has been alternately French
> and German. The Trumps are German, originally speaking the same German
> dialect as the Amish of Lancaster County, PA.
> His maternal grandparents lived in Scotland.
> Freiderich (Drumph) Trump made a small but respectable fortune in the
> late 19th Century in the mining boom towns of the American Northwest.
> He returned to Germany to marry his childhood neighbor, Elizabeth Christ.
> The newly married Trumps resettled in the Borough of Queens NY
> Freidrich was establishing a Real Estate business in Queens when he died
> suddenly at age 49 (1918).
> In 1920, at the age of 15, Fred Trump (Freiderich's son and Donald's
> father), started a business partnership with his widowed mother called
> Elizabeth Trump & Son.
> This business was built upon the real estate holdings that his
> father,Frederich, had amassed (worth about $500,000.00 in today's
> dollars). This is the original "seed money" of the current Trump
> Organization.
> Elizabeth & Fred remained close business partners her entire life (she
> died in 1966).
> In 1936 Fred Trump (age 31) married Mary Ann MacLeod (age 24) of
> Stoneaway Scotland.
> During the depression, Fred Trump built and successfully operated a
> supermarket (a new concept at the time) which was sold to King Kullen
> Co. and operates this day.
> Fred Trump made a lot of money building housing for the military during
> WWII.
> Fred Trump was investigated by the Justice Department for making
> "excessive profits" from government contracts.
> All (or nearly all) of the building of Elizabeth Trump & Son's non
> government building was residential property in Queens.
> Fred Trump died in 1999 (age 94) - beloved and worth between $250 million
> and $300 million. His wife died a year later.
>
>
"The Donald's" career
>
> Donald Trump is the greatest career achiever of the "baby boomer"
> generation.
>
Donald Trump has reached the zenith in his careers as book author, TV
entertainer, sports entertainer, Real Estate developer, and currently
politician.
>
>Donald Trump has authored more than 18 books. At least one of them, The
>Art of the Deal was a top seller.
> Donald says that the Holy Bible is his favorite book. The Art of the
> Deal is his 2nd favorite book. And The Power of Positive Thinking by
> Norman Vincent Peale is his third favorite book.
> He likes golf. Donald Trump has developed more than 11 golf courses which
> bear his name.
> Donald Trump has twice been nominated for an Emmy Award
> Donald Trump has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.
> Donald Trump has been inducted to the Professional Wrestling Hall of
> Fame.
> Donald Trump has appeared in more than a dozen movies such as Home Alone
> 2, Zoolander, and Little Rascals
> Donald Trump has been a guest actor in more than 6 TV shows such as Fresh
> Prince of Bel Air, Days of Our Lives, Sex and the City, and others.
> Trump has been the Executive Producer of 7 TV shows.
> Trump has been the guest host of 5 TV shows such as Extra, Larry King
> Live, and Saturday Night Live and more.
> Donald Trump has been co producer of the longest running reality TV show.
> Donald Trump performed in several WWE wrestling shows.
> Donald performed in Wrestlemania 23 which set attendance records and
> revenue records up til that time.
> In his first candidacy for public office, Donald Trump received the most
> popular votes for the President of the United States out of a field of
> experienced and successful politicians. And in most cases, he achieved
> this with less money than any of his opponents.
>
Keeping in mind that 90% of start up businesses fail, Trump's record of
enterprise is nothing short of amazing.
>
>Donald Trump has enjoyed success in at least 11 very different
>enterprises: Professional football, Ice Skating rinks, Fragrance, Ice,
>Steaks, Wines, Model management, Airline, blenders, Men's wear, Bicycle
>races, world class beauty contests, and many others. In some of these,
>such as model management, his firm has risen to the top of that particular
>industry.
>
There are 31 buildings that bear his name.
> The largest private real estate development in New York is Trump
> Riverside. Drive down the Henry Hudson Blvd. - you can't miss them.
> There are at least 12 Trump Towers
> There are at least 6 Trump Plazas.
> There are at least 11 Trump Golf Course developments
> And much, much, more in real estate.
> Trump Entertainment, casinos and resorts was recently sold to Carl Ichan.
> Donald Trump's personal managing of the Wollman Ice Skating Rink project
> in the early 1980's is the quintessential case study for MBA students in
> Wharton, Harvard, and other business schools. His performance there was
> phenomenal.
> Donald Trump's privately held businesses have employed more than 200,000
> people.
> In the casino business in Atlantic City, Trump had to do business with
> known mobsters - and he stayed "clean" and alive.
> Aside from his personal investments, Donald Trump has never been a Wall
> Street "player".
>
>
The Political Trump:
> about 1967 - 1987 - Democrat (he was a supporter of Ronald Reagan)
>
>
> 1987 - 1999 - Republican
>
>
> 1999 - 2001 - Reform Party (he supported Ross Perot)
>
>
> 2001 - 2009 - Democrat
>
>
> 2009 - 2011 - Republican
>
>
> 2011 - 2012 - Independent
>
>
> 2012 - Present - Republican
>
>
> Donald Trump was openly supportive of Mitt Romney's candidacy.
>
>
> Donald Trump does not seem to hold political party organizations in high
> regard.
>
>
> For the most part, his political involvement has been for practical
> reasons.
>
>
> Donald Trump does not appear to be held to political ideology.
>
> Some of my take aways:
>
>
> Trump has an extraordinarily energetic central nervous system much like
> Teddy Roosevelt but more targeted to industry and enterprise.
> Trump's presidency will be very energetic, transparent, and
> communicative.
> Trump will be a very hard working President.
> His interaction with his older brother (who everybody loved) tells me
> that he thinks that everybody is like him - or wants to be - or should
> be.
> His relationship with his older brother was a hard lesson in tolerance
> for him.
> Trump is the Babe Ruth of career achievements.
> He is dumb like a fox. When you think he just said something stupid - he
> didn't. It's just that you were not his target audience.
> Trump knows the people - the folk.
> His son, Donald Jr. is right. Trump is a "Blue Collar Billionaire".
> More than anything, his TV show, The Apprentice, was his passion. He
> wants all Americans to have confidence (like he does) to venture.
> Donald Trump is attracted to and marries smart, high achieving women.
> The highest levels of a Trump Administration is certain to have many
> women - and they will be bright and assertive.
> Donald Trump's children are very important to him. And it shows.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2016 at 21:55
I feel that you are working very hard to paint a picture of Trump's humanity.

My concern though is how does Trump view the rest of humanity, maybe he just figured that Republicans are just easier marks for his latest con job.  I do not doubt that he works very hard at everything he does.  When he throws someone under the bus, I have no doubt that for him it is not personal. 

I didn't read your long laundry list, so I don't know if you included the fraud charges, or his working with organized crime (which admittedly one probably has to do to build something in New York or Atlantic City).  Did you mention his bankruptcies and the people who trusted him on business deals?  But none of that bothers me as much as his streak of viciousness.  When you attack someone in politics, you don't try to anhillate them, because you may want them as an ally.  Trump has no conception of that.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2016 at 04:21
Trump lately has been attacking the governor of New Mexico, a Republican woman, Hispanic who was quite articulate at the last Republican convention and who's considered to be a rising star in the party.

Trump is again pandering to the lowest "common" denominator.  In politics one should not fix that which is not broken.  But that's not Trump's point, the governor is a prominent Hispanic woman and a Republican, and therefore he finds that threatening.  She has stayed out of things (other than endorsing someone else in the primaries), but in a pre-emptive strike Trump attacks her as someone who _might_ be a hassle to him.

Trump is into damaging people, that's his strategy for winning.  He is not interested in policy or leading, like the World Wrestling star he is, he is into damaging the other guy, crippling them if he can.  Trump is more of a threat to Republicans than Hillary or Obama ever was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2016 at 07:15
Could you provide us some quotes please?

Why is it important to quote that this person is a woman? Would it be ok to criticise her if she lacked a vagina? And Hispanic? I suppose if she were white it would be ok? What about the Inuit, do we have to make special note of their ethnic background? When Trump gets criticised, can I note that he is a caucasian man and insinuate that his ethnic background makes him part of a protected victim group who we are obligated to defend with paternalist instinct?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2016 at 02:59
Donald Trump has problems with women and hispanics, he would claim that he has no problems and that really women and Hispanics (who are decent folk) love him.  Here is someone who is a solid Republican, a governor no less, someone he should consider in his camp, or at least not an enemy.  So what is his problem with her?  That she supported a different candidate during the primary?  No, it looks like his problem with her is that she is an intelligent woman and a hispanic.  To know is to loathe him, and he would rather neutralize, compromise her before she could possibly attack him.  Now, if she said anything about him, it will look like she is criticizing him, because he criticized her, instead of because his prejudicial views on Hispanics and women.

No, i don't have any quotes, I saw it on the television and have no desire to track everything down for your benefit.  Look up governor of New Mexico and Trump, I am sure that any decent search engine can give you a background for it.  That way you can get the facts separate from my particular spin. 

You are down in Australia, and so while you may be interested in our circus, it doesn't affect you directly.  If you knew about US and Republican politics, you would know that while Trump can slander wetbacks with impunity, going after a Republican Hispanic Governor is another matter.  It is one thing when he criticizes Hillary Clinton or Elizabeth Warren, it is another thing when he goes after the the female  (Republican) governors of, again, New Mexico, or South Carolina.  It appears that it is not because Clinton or Warren are liberals that he doesn't like them, because he doesn't like the female governors or Fiorina either.  He has been ugly toward Fiorina and Cruz's wife.  To him, women are weak and that is an advantage to be exploited by him, except of course for his wives and daughters.  A female (Jewish) writer of an article in Esquire, or Atlantic Monthly or some like that wrote a story on Trump's wife and the trolls came out of woodwork to attack her.  It wasn't even a hostile article.  Is it coincidence that Trump's wife really values her privacy, or not?  Again, I heard it on the radio, and don't have more background.  If you are interested look up Trump's wifes name, find an article on her in an esteemed US magazine, and then look up the author.  Point is, Trump is very much for Freedom of speech as long as it is his speech.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2016 at 03:19
@Franciscoan:

Thanks for your post above. Thankfully, not all Australians share Constantine X1's views.

I think, though, that you perhaps don't realise just how close our ties to the USA are. If Trump were to be elected as POTUS, it would put us in some kind of predicament viv-a-vis our international ties with other countries, such as the hispanic and Asian worlds. Likewise the UK would rather see him not elected, as the British parliament has already discussed banning Trump from its shores due to his views, including those in relation to women.

Granted, all we really know of Trump is what we see on TV news clips and read in the print media, but they all can't be wrong. My view is that if he is elected, the USA could be in for some worrying times.


I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2016 at 03:21
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Could you provide us some quotes please?

Why is it important to quote that this person is a woman? Would it be ok to criticise her if she lacked a vagina? And Hispanic? I suppose if she were white it would be ok? What about the Inuit, do we have to make special note of their ethnic background? When Trump gets criticised, can I note that he is a caucasian man and insinuate that his ethnic background makes him part of a protected victim group who we are obligated to defend with paternalist instinct?

It is important to quote his remarks about women, because he has made disparaging, demeaning, and sexist statements against women in his campaign, to the shame and disgrace of his supporters, the GOP, and the civilized segment of American society still remaining today.

It is important to note his comments about Hispanics, because he has made racist, inflammatory, threatening remarks about these, and other minority groups.

Trump is a complete disgrace in his lack of regard for professional ethics, honest discourse, intellectual attainment, basic human civility, and moral substance. That he has even made it as far as nomination for the Republican Party is an indictment of American society today.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2016 at 06:27
Yeah it's just that others have made claims about things Trump allegedly said in the past - and rather than making them prove their allegations I instead assumed responsibility for the burden of proof myself. I went out of my way to track down the unedited video clip, which clearly showed that the two people making claims about Trump were dead wrong. Neither of them admitted that they were wrong, they simply continued to insist on their original contention. How embarrassing for  them. I don't know where they get the nerve.

So you'll excuse me if I don't believe without proof what the anti-Trump camp claims. Whether they are willfully ignorant, lazy or simply mendacious - without some supporting evidence I'm not going to take their regurgitated media-fed nonsense seriously.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2016 at 01:59
Constantine:

Perhaps you would like to post the "unedited video clip" for the benefit of the rest of us. Personally, I'd like to see how it stacks up against what you claim is the edited version.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2016 at 02:12
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Constantine:

Perhaps you would like to post the "unedited video clip" for the benefit of the rest of us. Personally, I'd like to see how it stacks up against what you claim is the edited version.



toyomotor, I have already done this. I addressed you personally when I posted the clip. I did this in reply to your remarks in the "Unbalanced treatment of peace/war in history" thread on 16/5/2016 at 19:49 AUEST.

For your benefit, here is my reply to you again:

Originally posted by me me wrote:

Toyomotor. No, you're wrong. Here's the proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XXcPl4T55I

watch from 1:40-3:00.

But all this belongs to another thread. Let's get back on topic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2016 at 02:25
I don't know about 'two individuals who are dead wrong on Trump.'  It is not surprising, when someone has such a habit of saying nasty stuff about others, it is easy for a few more things to get added or exaggerated.  Question is, do you need me to look up articles on Trump and the governor of New Mexico for you, or can you do that for yourself?  Or for that matter the governor of South Carolina or Cruz's wife, or Trump and John McCain or whatever else?  If you are interested, you don't need me to hold your hand in looking it up, and it probably would be best for you to do it yourself so you know that I am not cherry-picking articles that say what I want them to say.  Fact is, I don't know what he said concerning the female Hispanic governor of New Mexico, I just know that the news reports he shot his mouth off again, and again, and again.  I actually think that the news is developing a tolerance of him, whereas it was a big deal before, it is not so much now as far as they're concerned, it is just Trump being Trump.  The liberal media loved it when it was the Republicans destroying each other, but they don't really take him seriously.  Maybe if he actually wins the election (heaven forbid!), and starts trying to impliment some of his proposals, maybe then they'll take him seriously.
Maybe you haven't picked up on this, but I'm registered Republican, I didn't vote when either Bush was running, but I voted for Dole, McCain and Romney.  I don't like Hillary, but I think that she is a better bet than Trump.  Again, I am a Republican and so I know Hillary's sins quite well, they are preferable to the general nastiness of Trump.  There is only one candidate running for president that can work well with a Republican congress, Hillary who did so when she was in the Senate and showed herself to be a great policy wonk (a wonk enjoys getting into the fine details of policy).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2016 at 02:40
Franciscosan, I was referring to CV's and toyomotor's repeated claims about Trump's alleged racism which I had already disproved with the hard evidence I posted about. Following which both of them simply repeated their original contentions without doing what I did - which was providing some tangible evidence.

WH is first and foremost a historical studies discussion forum. So I don't think it should be beyond any person here to back up what they say with good evidence (a virtue absolutely central to a good historian). The demand of the anti-Trump camp to me at the moment is, "I expect you to subscribe to the same news and op-ed presenters that I do, uncritically accept everything they claim and suggest, and never explore outside the confines of my chosen narrative". How fair or reasonable is that?

As you yourself admit, you don't even know what the man said. As you yourself admit, your chosen news outlet depicted a narrative which you have faithfully accepted without any attempt at verification.

Do you see what I'm saying?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2016 at 02:44
Of course, Trump has a fraud case that will go to court after the election for his Trump University scheme.  Now whether he gets elected or not, he will claim that is the work of his enemies, and where are you going to find a jury poll who, by that time, isn't biased against or for him?  But don't think of it as a problem of whether he is guilty or not, think of it as a matter of due process, whether or not he's guilty things will be so confused that a trial probably won't be possible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2016 at 02:58
Yes and plants gain energy from the sun by a process called photosynthesis.

See? I can avoid answering the question by changing the topic too LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2016 at 03:12
Yes, I haven't checked it out fully, I am tired of Trump and so please forgive me if I don't do all the homework.  I know he went after the governor of New Mexico and the governor of South Carolina (although the later is probably when her state had a convention, and is not so recent as the NM.).  The story I heard was on the radio and they weren't specific.  If you are interested, I encourage you to look it up, if you are not interested and just want to give me a hard time, sorry, I don't live my life for the Donald.  Sometimes history is a matter of pointing out that something exists.  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
I wish I could ignore him and he would go away.

Hispanic is not a race, it is an ethnic group.  Muslim is not a race, it is a religious group.  Both tend to be brown people and there is some prejudice against brown people in the US, on the other hand, sun tan is sexy, so go figure.  But both Hispanics and Muslims do include different racial groups, combinations, but Trump is painting with a broad brush, one doesn't think of blond.blue eyed as Hispanic, nor usually black Hispanic, but both happen. obtw, the governor of South Carolina is Indian, as in India, Indian, so she maybe she fits the brown menace view as well.  But technically Trump steps very carefully around race, and other things even when shooting his mouth off.  He has nice plausible deniability, no, he is not talking about race, he is talking about "open borders" and "Islamic extremists."  Do those serve as code words for something else, I don't think the people hearing them know whether that is the intent or not.  It may not (technically) be racism, but it is ugly nevertheless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2016 at 03:19
Look at the post times Constantine, I wasn't avoiding your statement, I was writing a second post before, during and after you posted yours.  You are correct that Trump is not racist, but he does pander to an ugly aspect of American society, which can include in some individuals racism.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2016 at 06:39
Haha, sorry franciscosan. I type very quickly so I assumed you were changing topic. No hard feelings buddy.

You have made the claim that Trump "attacked" these two governors. That's a very strong word. I'd be curious to see whether the word "criticise" is a better fit. And if the attacks/criticisms he leveled against the people in question were well deserved. Personally I think that the POTUS ought to be prepared to attack or criticise those who deserve it. The USA's very serious problems absolutely require a top leader who can call out the dysfunctions where they occur and hold those responsible to account for them. A candidate who simply smiles, utters trite sentimentalist platitudes and refuses to honestly tackle the issues is a person who cannot be relied upon.

But again, since neither of us knows what he actually said we are just trading abstract ideals at this point.

I like how you very correctly identified that Trump's statements do not clearly reflect an attitude towards race. Favouring one religion over another isn't racist. Favouring one culture over another also isn't racist - it's ethnocentric. I have no shame in admitting that I do not think all cultures are equal - I consider some to have more depth and inherent value than others. As potential chief executive, Trump's duty will be to absolutely favour the interests of those who are US citizens over the desires of those who are not. He's given every indication that he will do just that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2016 at 01:55
For some strange reason constantine, you have chosen to join the tin hat brigade. Strange because I seem to recall your previous posts were reasonable and well informed. 

Whether Mr F in Colorado wants to admit it or not, perhaps not, being so close to the action, geographically and also in the sense of committed ideology, the Donald has made, and is continuing to make, the most outrageous statements imaginable for one seeking so high an office. Suggesting a TV interviewer has been hard on you because she was having her period, or decrying a court judge considering a case against you by dropping the casual term- he's Mexican you know- even though he isn't, only of Mexican descent, or any of the other blots on the integrity of what  was once a reasonable democracy and and a reasonableunctioning society, are untenable by any standard, and will be disastrous if the Donald ever gets his hands on real power.

Even more to the point, as economist Paul Krugman pointed out in a recent op-ed piece, businessmen do not necessarily know anything about economics, or leadership, or running a nation. Even if they have been successful, something not assured in the case of Trump, such is not the same, in any way shape or form of running a country, and its economy.

The Donald has demonstrated time again his his total ignorance of world affairs, and the science of economics . China's manipulation of its currency, for example, is something all nations have done historically to try and promote their own industries where necessary, including the USA. Manufacturing jobs, for one more small example, are never going to return to the US, because of changes in technology and global trade. It's an non-starter. The answer to such issues are complex, probably beyond the understanding of Donald the real estate shill. Most certainly, they will require a degree of international cooperation, something the Donald has demonstrated he has no talent for.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2016 at 02:47
Quote For some strange reason constantine, you have chosen to join the tin hat brigade. Strange because I seem to recall your previous posts were reasonable and well informed.

My posts are reasonable. My posts are well informed. Certainly a lot more than yours. It's petty of you to lump me in with folk who believe in flat-earth and chemtrails theories. All it does it show your own inability to address the points of discussion.

Quote Whether Mr F in Colorado wants to admit it or not, perhaps not, being so close to the action, geographically and also in the sense of committed ideology, the Donald has made, and is continuing to make, the most outrageous statements imaginable for one seeking so high an office. Suggesting a TV interviewer has been hard on you because she was having her period, or decrying a court judge considering a case against you by dropping the casual term- he's Mexican you know- even though he isn't, only of Mexican descent, or any of the other blots on the integrity of what  was once a reasonable democracy and and a reasonableunctioning society, are untenable by any standard, and will be disastrous if the Donald ever gets his hands on real power.

I've previously looked into your claims about Donald and refuted them with direct raw evidence. I'll be happy to do so again if you provide a source for your claims. My suspicion is that they are probably exaggeration cloaked in hyper-dramatic hyperbole.

But even if they aren't, I've already explained what Trump is doing and why. He's putting on a show that will appeal to the electorate, following which he will moderate his language and ideas. This has already begun - he has substantially mellowed his rhetoric in recent weeks.

And his approach is paying off - he's made huge leaps in the polls. He is going to hammer Hillary. He is going to win.

Originally posted by CV CV wrote:

Even more to the point, as economist Paul Krugman pointed out in a recent op-ed piece, businessmen do not necessarily know anything about economics, or leadership, or running a nation. Even if they have been successful, something not assured in the case of Trump, such is not the same, in any way shape or form of running a country, and its economy.

The fact that you consider Paul Krugman a good source of economic wisdom does not surprise me. Of course this crypto-Marxist  doesn't like Trump. Trump will roll back the bloated and inefficient sprawl of socialist waste. I'm looking forward to it.

Quote The Donald has demonstrated time again his his total ignorance of world affairs, and the science of economics . China's manipulation of its currency, for example, is something all nations have done historically to try and promote their own industries where necessary, including the USA. Manufacturing jobs, for one more small example, are never going to return to the US, because of changes in technology and global trade. It's an non-starter. The answer to such issues are complex, probably beyond the understanding of Donald the real estate shill. Most certainly, they will require a degree of international cooperation, something the Donald has demonstrated he has no talent for.

And yet both Japan and Germany, with opulent standards of living and much smaller corporate tax rates, both have world-leading manufacturing bases. And neither of those two countries has a workforce as productive as that of the United States, which has the highest rates of productivity among its workforce of any developed country.

I disagree with your claim that manufacturing cannot be revived in the USA. It is the inefficient and profit destroying policies of socialist ideologues in places like Detroit which have ruined the American manufacturing base. Remove the Marxists and their allies; watch the factory lights turn on and the production line start running again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2016 at 02:47
My Captain wrote
Quote For some strange reason constantine, you have chosen to join the tin hat brigade. Strange because I seem to recall your previous posts were reasonable and well informed. 

I agree, Constantine has become more argumentative and almost aggressive in his recent posts. But that still doesn't make him right. The bottom line is that Trump's behaviour over recent months is hardly what should be expected from someone who aspires to, arguably, the most powerful position in the world. His insults have caused discord among world leaders who have been traditional close friends of the USA. As I have said previously, Trump, as POTUS, could either be a complete disaster or a "lame Duck" President, with no support at all from Congress.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2016 at 03:06
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I agree, Constantine has become more argumentative and almost aggressive in his recent posts.

Did I trigger you? Do you need a safe space?

Yeah, I disagreed with you over something you got wrong. I'm not going to be a part of your own personal echo chamber.

If you can't handle one person supporting Trump, you're going to become despondent when he actually wins.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2016 at 03:24
@Constantine XI:

I'm certainly not going to join you in a slanging match, we don't agree so, as far as I'm concerned I'm going to leave it at that, so we must agree to disagree.

I hope you're satisfied to leave it that.   Clap

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2016 at 03:30
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I'm certainly not going to join you in a slanging match

Of course you won't debate me in an intelligent discussion.

Quote we don't agree so, as far as I'm concerned I'm going to leave it at that, so we must agree to disagree.

I hope you're satisfied to leave it that.

Yeah, how about you leave it at that. Instead of withdrawing from intelligent discussion and sniping at me from the sidelines, whining like a child about my manner being "argumentative and almost aggressive".

Man up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2016 at 03:31
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

My Captain wrote
Quote For some strange reason constantine, you have chosen to join the tin hat brigade. Strange because I seem to recall your previous posts were reasonable and well informed. 

I agree, Constantine has become more argumentative and almost aggressive in his recent posts. But that still doesn't make him right. The bottom line is that Trump's behaviour over recent months is hardly what should be expected from someone who aspires to, arguably, the most powerful position in the world. His insults have caused discord among world leaders who have been traditional close friends of the USA. As I have said previously, Trump, as POTUS, could either be a complete disaster or a "lame Duck" President, with no support at all from Congress.




Indeed. A Trump victory could well see a plunging stock market, capital flight, a reassessment of the US dollar as the global reserve currency, civil conflict, and perhaps more ominously, a gradual sidestepping by US allies, who would now see their future as only in their own hands, with their own nukes, and no substantial trade or military ties to the US.

Absurd? No, not really. How many allies does Putin have? How many align with Chinese foreign policy? The answer is zero, because no one wants to pull into line with a bunch of nutbars, or crazed, violent, self interested demigods. 

Mr C believes he has the inside track on the Donald's thinking and strategy, but I'm willing to bet my pension that he does not have access to the Donald's mind, as modest an asset as that may be. My bet is that the Donald is, with a bit  of cynical machinations aside, pretty much as he displays himself: an ignorant, crass, self-interested, loud mouthed, bigoted, megalomaniac, who hopes for the ultimate power, without having even the most modest credentials to achieve such situation, nor certainly to do anything with it if it should fall into his lap.

Trump as president would be immediately faced with a plethora of faces, all of which would be immensely more educated and able than himself. He could only tell them they were "fired" to a limited degree, before some, perhaps in the state department, told him they were not, and he better go back to the drawing board, or, some, in the military perhaps, told him they were not, and to please keep his hands in sight, until the sergeant behind him applied the handcuffs, and removed him to a secure site.

Being a loudmouth and a bigot might play when running one's own company, with poor and dependent workers struggling for money, but it will only play so far within a community loaded with rich and powerful interests, ones that do not want to see them go down the drain because of a foolish populist demigod. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2016 at 06:43
I just found my new ringtone. Hell yeah!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqYJRc0TJkQ


Edited by Constantine XI - 31 May 2016 at 06:47
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