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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 00:57
franciscosan wrote (in part)
Quote Toyomotor, I wouldn't get too caught up on whether Trump is lying every 10 seconds. 

No? 
This the way for the leader of the Free World (???) to act? 

This is how he gains credibility for himself and his fledgeling government?

This is how be promotes stability in a volatile world?

By his endless lies, as seen on TV news broadcasts, his credibility is/has gone down the drain.

It's fair of Vanuatu to say that I don't like him. I look to US Presidents for a stabilising influence, and Trump ain't it.

For very staid, stiff upper lip British to actively protest against a suggested visit by Trump to the UK speaks volumes-and it's not only the hoi poloi who are protesting, it's also the bourgeoisie.


Edited by toyomotor - 23 Feb 2017 at 01:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 01:35
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Does Trump own that bridge in Brooklyn?  Are you selling it on his behalf?

Vanuatu it seems like you are saying that Obama was really bad, and the media liked him, and the media dislikes Trump, therefore Trump must be really, really good.  I mean the argument has a nice symmetry to it, but that doesn't mean it is accurate.

I'm saying the media is an arm of the DNC. I don't trust them or respect them. The fact that Trump makes them wet their collective beds is icing on the cake. I would have no more faith in the media if Trump had not been elected. The argument is that the democrats and the media are together trying to tell us what to think. And Trump destroys their credibility at every turn. At least to those of us who reject the alphabet networks.

The hosts of MSNBC's 'Morning Joe' comment on President Trump's efforts to "undermine the media." 

Co-host Mika Brzezinski commented Wednesday morning that she is upset to see President Trump has moved in on the media's turf when it comes to the area of mind control.

"He is trying to undermine the media and trying to make up his own facts," she said about Trump. "And it could be that while unemployment and the economy worsens, he could have undermined the messaging so much that he can actually control exactly what people think."

"And that, that is our job," she noted, referring to the media. 

She tweeted later that she "said the media's job was to keep President Trump from making up his own facts, NOT that it's our job to control what people think."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 01:39
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

franciscosan wrote (in part)
Quote Toyomotor, I wouldn't get too caught up on whether Trump is lying every 10 seconds. 

No? 
This the way for the leader of the Free World (???) to act? 

This is how he gains credibility for himself and his fledgeling government?

This is how be promotes stability in a volatile world?

By his endless lies, as seen on TV news broadcasts, his credibility is/has gone down the drain.

It's fair of Vanuatu to say that I don't like him. I look to US Presidents for a stabilising influence, and Trump ain't it.

For very staid, stiff upper lip British to actively protest against a suggested visit by Trump to the UK speaks volumes-and it's not only the hoi poloi who are protesting, it's also the bourgeoisie.

toyomotor, with respect-you had no business believing Obama to be a stabilizing influence. Now that we know your gift for wishful thinking, maybe you should unburden yourself and let Trump be your new hero. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 04:28
Quote toyomotor, with respect-you had no business believing Obama to be a stabilizing influence. Now that we know your gift for wishful thinking, maybe you should unburden yourself and let Trump be your new hero. Wink

Sheesh, if pigs could fly.

But as I wrote in another post, I agree with his stance on immigration, it's been allowed to fester for far too long.

And, yes, I often see the world through rose coloured glasses-if I didn't, I wouldn't want to get of bed every day.Thumbs Up




Edited by toyomotor - 24 Feb 2017 at 00:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 00:48
I think that it is hard to tell what would have happened if Barack Obama
had not been elected.  But after 9/11 blacks felt like they were no longer
on the bottom of the totem pole.  (Instead, Arabs/muslims were), and it 
seemed like a lot more blacks appeared on television commercials, first
in 'respectful' roles, but later in humorous or slapstick roles (the dumb
husband or whatever).  There was a certain amount that blacks, walking
in suburbs, were more relaxed, they had "arrived" so to speak.  There is
a saying, (having nothing to do with the TV show,) "black is the new
white."  In some  ways, that is because of Obama, as is the protests 
 for police shootings.  Shootings have been happening forever, 
 but there is less tolerance for them now, more of an assumption 
 that the police are the cause, and that they were unwarranted, 
 so to speak.  Some things are better, some are, perhaps momentarily??, 
worse.  I think that is how progress really works, two steps 
forward, one step back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 01:04
franciscosan wrote
Quote Shootings have been happening forever,  but there is less tolerance for them now, more of an assumption  that the police are the cause, and that they were unwarranted, so to speak.  Some things are better, some are, perhaps momentarily??, worse.  I think that is how progress really works, two steps forward, one step back.

WOW!! you certainly seem to be taking the murder of coloured people by the police very lightly.

In every case that I've read about or seen on TV News recently, the police officer/s should have been charged with murder. In most cases they claimed that they acted in self defence, from a man who was running away from them? An unarmed man who was not implicated in a serious crime? And so the list goes on.

In any other civilised western country, the murders would not have happened in the first place, but, having occurred, where's the justice for them and their families?

Are coloured people even considered to be human in the US?

That these and other well publicised shootings in the US have been allowed to continue is a condemnation on the whole country, IMHO, of course.



Edited by toyomotor - 24 Feb 2017 at 01:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 03:08
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote toyomotor, with respect-you had no business believing Obama to be a stabilizing influence. Now that we know your gift for wishful thinking, maybe you should unburden yourself and let Trump be your new hero. Wink

Sheesh, if pigs could fly.

But as I wrote in another post, I agree with his stance on immigration, it's been allowed to fester for far too long.

And, yes, I often see the world through rose coloured glasses-if I didn't, I wouldn't want to get of bed every day.Thumbs Up



You and me both. Can't let all the "crazy" bring you down. Ancient people are substantially more interesting and do not infuriate.Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 03:22
?What do you mean, "Are colored people even considered human in the US?
I haven't looked into the shootings of blacks that much, but for the few cases
I have looked at, there is a rationale for the judgment.  But whether it is
black or white, what I see is someone challenging someone else with a 
gun.  That can be done through certain tactics, non-violent tactics,
not reaching into a police cruiser (Ferguson) for the officer's gun.
It would have been nice if things had stopped after the initial tussle,
but in the rush of adrenaline, things didn't immediately stop.
and no, the kid didn't deserve it, he stole some slim jims and intimidated
a convenience clerk.  He was no angel, but if he had survived
a little longer he might have matured, he didn't get that far,
he died and unfortunately the officer will have to live with that.

The case of Zimmerman and Treyvon Martin was truly tragic.  Zimmerman
should not have had a gun, playing cop, on his neighborhood watch.
I think that Treyvon jumped Zimmerman, I think it was probably 
a fear reaction, but once Zimmerman was jumped, he had a choice
of either using the gun, or potentially giving the gun up to his attacker.
If he hadn't been playing cop, he would have gotten a little beating,
and Martin would have survived.  Zimmerman proved himself
since then to be an even bigger ass.  His wife divorced him,
(couldn't have happened to a 'nicer' guy), and he put the
weapon up for auction on line.  I think if a gun is used in 
a deadly shooting, it should be confiscated and destroyed.
Florida has some idiot gun laws.
I don't think that it is right, I think that the situation is messed up
but again there usually is a legal rationale for how the officer
reacted.  But I am talking about individual cases, individual places,
I don't know about the whole.
There is an antagonism between some blacks, some times, and some
whites, some times.  And because there is an antagonism from one
side, the other side responds.  But again, with Obama's election
there is amongst a lot of blacks, a release of weight, so to speak,
but at the same time the expectation means that when an incident
happens, there is more of a reaction.
I hope this makes sense to you, Toyomotor, and I hope you
won't shoot your mouth off prematurely, (Although, I don't
necessarily expect that<grin>)  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 23:53
franciscosan, injecting some personal vitriol into the post, wrote
Quote I hope this makes sense to you, Toyomotor, and I hope you won't shoot your mouth off prematurely, (Although, I don't
necessarily expect that<grin>)  

You think I shoot my mouth off prematurely, that's your opinion, one that I don't place any value on.

My comments are backed up by fact-there have been many shootings of black people in the USA, under circumstances that did not require the use of deadly force. Prove me wrong!!!

If you can't discuss these issues without personal attacks, perhaps you shouldn't enter the conversation.
Angry

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 01:24
Yes, I didn't talk about "many shootings," I talked about two particular ones which everybody 'knows' about without ever looking at the facts, as they are determined by the following investigation.  There was also the shooting of the black man in Chicago who had a knife and was walking down the street.  He had passed the police, who had ordered him to drop it.  He was manic or high or something, and did not.  The police weren't threatened but there were other people around.  They were concerned about others getting hurt, and if they engaged with him, they would have had to worry about themselves getting hurt.  So they shot him, and it was also filmed on a cel phone camera.  And it looks bad, but there is a whole backstory that is important for understanding what happened.  You don't get that from the cell phone and you don't get that from the protesters.  You have to look at the judgment down the road, in order to get the facts.  and,
and if you don't do that you never will really understand what went wrong, and how it might be prevented in the future.
Don't misunderstand me, just because an action is legally "right," doesn't mean that it is morally right.  I believe killing someone, whether it is justified or accidental, or in self-defense, leaves a black mark on your soul.  I don't think that police officers want that anymore than anyone else does (except maybe Zimmerman, but he's an ass), I think that the _particular_ cases I mentioned, it seemed like a choice of either the young black man, or someone else, the officers themselves, or innocent bystanders.  Whether it actually was that choice, in _those_ cases, I don't really know.  But everybody assumes that they know what happened in such encounters, when people get into the details I don't think matters are as clear as people think they are.
But you are a retired police officer, how should people judge an event?  Should they judge from only footage from the original event, at the moment when emotions (and yes, shock) are high?  Or should they take the footage as one source, maybe the most important source, but one source for what happened?  I am not saying that police abuse doesn't happen.  But I feel that overall the justice system works (overall), its not perfect, but it will catch up with the baddies (police or otherwise) eventually.
You're sensitive.  You're accusing someone you don't know of racism.  Those are fighting words, but I don't take it personally, because you don't know me.  And to be honest, maybe you don't want to.  i can't decide that for you.  I like hearing your opinion usually, but when you imply I am racist, you don't know what you are talking about, just as I wouldn't know that the complexity of race, ethnicity and nationality in Australia.  And so I ask, did what I said about Ferguson and Tryvon Martin make sense to you?  And if you look at the quote above, you will see that I put in a smile and grin<grin>  attempting to introduce some levity, into something that otherwise is very serious.
I guess I failed:P  :)
Kind Regards,
Jf


Edited by franciscosan - 25 Feb 2017 at 01:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 04:25
franciscosan

The shooting of coloured people by police in the USA has been well documented over the years, but in recent times, they seem to be more frequent.

Im not talking about armed and dangerous criminals, I'm not even talking about people who hhave committed serious crimes. I've confined my remarks to those cases where none of the above apply, people running away from police and posing no threat, people stopped for minor traffic infringements, and so on.

Of course I realise that in the US, a traffic stop can turn murderous in a split second, but there are still too many coloured people being shot and killed by the police, in circumstances where deadly force was not needed.

Again, show me where I'm wrong.

And yes, IMHO, you failed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 05:01

Zimmerman was not a cop. Democrats have run Ferguson forever promising a better future, never delivering.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/16/black-voters-rejecting-democratic-party-in-ferguso/

Many black voters in the St. Louis area say they will be taking out their aggression at the ballot box this November over the handling of the Michael Brown shooting — by voting against the Democratic Party that they have long supported.

“Just because they’ve got the D next to their name, that don’t mean nothing,” Darren Seals, 27, of Ferguson, told The Washington Post.

He vowed to vote for a white Republican even though he’s never before participated in a local election. He said he’s angry things haven’t improved for the black community since President Obama took office.

“The world is watching us right now. It’s time to send a message of our power,” he told The Post.

His comments are part of a growing sentiment in the St. Louis suburb that has been rocked by unrest following the fatal shooting of 18-year-old Michael Brown by a Ferguson police officer.

erguson, Missouri, is a majority-black city governed mostly by whites. The mayor is white. The police chief is white. The police force is 94 percent white. Only one of its six city council members is black. These facts, as much as anything, have shaped the protests over the police shooting of Michael Brown. Ferguson, with a 67 percent black population, is a place where the largest community has little political voice.://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/08/14/ferguson_missouri_government_why_is_it_so_white.html  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2017 at 06:25
To lose one senior member of your new administration is unfortunate.

To lose two senior members is downright bloody careless.

It seems like the Red Connection isn't going to go away anytime soon.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2017 at 01:49
He lost two? I know about General Flynn but who else? 

The Red Connection indeed. Is the unbiased Australian press talking about the visits by Russian ambassador to the Obama White House? 

That is where Sessions- Attorney General met with Russian ambassador Sergey Kislak at a conference, then his second meeting was in Session's capacity as member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. 

I'm not sure what your hearing about this maybe you can comment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2017 at 06:17
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

He lost two? I know about General Flynn but who else? 

The Red Connection indeed. Is the unbiased Australian press talking about the visits by Russian ambassador to the Obama White House? 

That is where Sessions- Attorney General met with Russian ambassador Sergey Kislak at a conference, then his second meeting was in Session's capacity as member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. 

I'm not sure what your hearing about this maybe you can comment. 

Quote He lost two? I know about General Flynn but who else? The Red Connection indeed. Is the unbiased Australian press talking about the visits by Russian ambassador to the Obama White House?  
1. No, I'm talking about the new  revelations about the Attorney Generals meeting with Russian during the campaign;

Quote That is where Sessions- Attorney General met with Russian ambassador Sergey Kislak at a conference, then his second meeting was in Session's capacity as member of the Senate Armed Services Committee.
2.So, all is well then? No developing scandal here?

Perhaps our media hasn't received this info yet. We're still at the "under investigation" stage. But it is Sunday after all.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2017 at 03:02
The Obama administration had 22 visits to the white house from this same ambassador, at the link are tweets from Claire McCaskill who denied ever meeting with the Ambassador proven false. This is fake news, fake book.

SIX more Democratic leaders are revealed to have met with Russian Ambassador amid campaign to discredit Trump's aides for doing the same

  • Six Democratic leaders were revealed to have been in a meeting with Russia's Ambassador with Claire McCaskill 
  • Democratic Senator McCaskill denied ever meeting with Russian Ambassador 
  • Old tweets proved the lawmaker had met with Sergey Kislyak in 2013 
  • Attorney General Jeff Sessions failed to disclose during his confirmation hearing that he spoke with Russia's ambassador twice last year 
  • McCaskill and other Democratic leaders including Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer called for Sessions' resignation 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4281760/Six-Democrats-met-Russian-Ambassador-past.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2017 at 05:26
Perhaps the media, and I should have been more specific.

I understand and accept that members of the Russian Embassy in Washington would have lawful reasons to meet with senior administration as part of their everyday duties.

What I'm really asking is, did the Russian Ambassador or anyone else representing Russian interests have meetings with Trump or any member of his election team which could now be considered "improper" or "unlawful"?

Did they ever meet to discuss means of destabilising Clintons campaign?

Why, suddenly, has Trump cooled on his relationship with Russia after having unashamedly schmoozed Putin when first elected?

If all is above board, why lie about meetings? And that goes for Obamas supporters as well.

 
Quote The Missouri senator had denied meeting him saying in her ten years serving on the Armed Services Committee, she was involved in 'no call or meeting' with the Russian diplomat. 

Her claims were quickly disproved after Charles C.W. Cooke of the National Review discovered tweets saying otherwise.



Quote Pelosi appeared to give a gift to the Trump White House, which has been sent reeling by reports of Trump's Russia ties, when she fielded a question about at a Politico interview Friday about whether she had ever met the current Russian ambassador, Sergey Kisliak. 

'Not with this Russian ambassador, no,' was Pelosi's response.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4281760/Six-Democrats-met-Russian-Ambassador-past.html#ixzz4aWMIy1ev 

I'm sorry Vanuatu, your link doesn't paint a good picture, from where ever you're standing.

]


Edited by toyomotor - 06 Mar 2017 at 05:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2017 at 14:55
Sessions didn't lie about the meetings , just to be clear. It was directly addressed in the question to Sessions  whether he met with Russian operatives about the campaign or the election.

Why does McCaskill come out to attack Sessions for meeting the ambassador during the Obama administration when in previous tweets she talked about meeting with the Russian ambassador?
Good question! 

No not a pretty picture as far as the press is concerned. There isn't  even an assertion from democrats saying what Sessions may have been doing that could be called improper or unlawful.

During two meetings that were arranged by the previous administration and within his job description as the committee member, no specific wrongdoing has been alleged only hysterical propaganda.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2017 at 23:17
Vanuatu

Thanks for the clarification.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2017 at 15:15
Bernie Sanders has a rant about Trumps lies-says they're the road to authoritarionism. (Is that even a word?)

Reports that other senior members of the GOP are speaking in tones of disquiet.

Speculation that Trump won't see out his for year term.

Putin cooling on Bromance with Trump.

Who'd ever thought that we'd spend 25 pages on Trump when we first set off?

Now, how did we score for unbiased accuracy?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2017 at 01:38
Vanuatu- Trump has ordered forty six of the senior prosecutors to resign. The reason appears to be that they were leftovers from the previous administration.

Were these people political appointments?

Is there any other reason that they should resign or be sacked?

It seems to me to be a curious system where there is no seperation of the powers in the USA, the Executive actively controlling and interfering in the duties of the Judiciary.

Or could it be that some of these prosecutors would have the unmitigated gall to launch proceedings against Trump and his business empire?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2017 at 20:28
authoritarianism, not authoritarionism.  the first is a word, the second is a misspelling, or maybe Bernie is going for some nuance, that escapes me.

Since they are probably from the justice department, their appointments _might_ depend on the presidency, but once appointed, they are probably independent of the presidency.  It sounds like Trump is trying to stack the deck, trying to force out some (who are career lawyers), and put in his own.  
Trump has no respect for institutions, their integrity or cohesion.  He is a bull in a China shop in that respect.  It is important for the judiciary and legislature to be independent of Trump, but the idea that he cannot do anything he wants, just pisses him off.  At least that is my interpretation of things.  He did in the election, and seems to still recognize some problems that were traditionally swept under the rug and not directly addressed by either party.  Like most politicians at that level (and he is _now_ a politician, whether he wants to be or not), there are good things and bad things about him.  I think that it is important to treat him as a human being (thus inherently flawed), and neither demonize him, or anoint him with sainthood.  But some people can only recognize the bad, some only the good.
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franciscosan View Drop Down
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2017 at 19:46
Let's close this thread, and start another(s) on Trump.
Let's put a stake in this vampire.

This thread, dump on Trump, was originally for the election, back during the primaries.  I feel, the title does not reflect the realities of today, specifically, the time of 'blindly' opposing Trump (and thus endorsing someone else), is over.  Right now, it is time to emphasize the positive, and minimize the negative.  That does not that there won't be a negative, nor does it mean that people have to keep their mouths shut about it.  It is not clear that President Trump understand the role of dissent in the public forum.  However, there is a difference between dissent and shooting at someone so they keep their head down (suppressive fire).  Let's try to figure out what is intended, and what is going on, again, emphasize the positive and when criticizing, try to do it in good faith, aiming for information and insight, not suppressive fire.

I propose a few new threads, 
1) Trump and foreign affairs (no Miss Sweden jokes please), including touching on defense, and immigration, and perception of US from a foreign point of view and other nations from a US point of view. 
2) economics/business
3) domestic policy.
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