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East and West

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2011 at 01:13

Don't get carried away now, we're hardly an authority on naming conventions .

"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2011 at 04:28
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Don't get carried away now, we're hardly an authority on naming conventions .

No, You are right, and it is more satisfying to discuss if there is more than pure naming conventions, if it is about exchanging points of view.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2011 at 05:30
We've gone quite a long way from the Euro-centric definition of "civilization" that essentially makes all else footnotes to the historical narrative within the constructs of that other chauvinism, the "white man's burden". Further, except for Hollywood, the portrayal of all save the Greeks as "barbarians" is a marked aberration. Thankfully during the course of the 20th century, save with the die-hards, civilization is no longer the equivalent of the world as defined by the "English speaking peoples". The strain of the relativistic and arbitrary gelled by 19th century savants is no longer valid even when addressing the cultural and the political. Usage always demands clarification and should be defined within the ambit of the specific era undergoing historical analysis.
 
Even in the context of the cultural the matter is quite problematic if some type of homogeneity is sought. Philip II certainly did not have any critical concept of the "West" other than as a cardinal point and to pretend otherwise is silly. Likewise. if we are going to discuss Aristotle and Plato as influences on "Western" ideology, then one would be quite remiss not to recognize that these figures too had a role to play in the intellectual mileu of Islam.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2011 at 07:35
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

We've gone quite a long way from the Euro-centric definition of "civilization"
 So, "we" have gone a long way from.., but but were are "we" - or rather some people  now? 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Thankfully during the course of the 20th century, save with the die-hards, civilization is no longer the equivalent of the world as defined by the "English speaking peoples".
I doubt it ever were, except in the minds of some of the "english speaking peoples".
Probably some of the the french elite thought of themselves as "Civilisation".


Edited by fantasus - 26 Nov 2011 at 07:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2011 at 11:52
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

 
Either your English isn't up to scratch or you have some sort of cognitive deficiency because nothing you just said is a counter argument to my post. 


There is still a third possibility: that the intellectual disability is in yours side LOL

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


Certainly not all dogs are equal.


Thanks! Then next time some ideologist say "there aren't races", remember that not all dogs have been created equal.
 
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


What you are describing is European Christendom, which is the source but not the exclusive proprietor of Westernism.  Non-Western countries can Westernise afterall.


European Christendom IS the Western Civilisation. The rest are colonies and cultures that, more or less, addapted the model, but which aren't Western.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2011 at 18:44
I think certainly you're right, the least equal dog is the Chilean Mestizo called Penguin.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2011 at 20:21
Just an off-topic note...

Dog and cow breeds and human races are a very poor comparison, because the former two are domestic aminals who have undergone artificial selection. 
Huskies, German Sheppards, and Pitbulls exist as the result of the selective breeding of dogs with certain characteristics desired by their owners. 

Human beings, as far as I know, have not undergone any rigorous artificial selection as such... the Nazis tried to breed tall blonds, but their regime didn't last very long. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2011 at 22:46
Another point...

Regarding the definition of "western civilization". It really is something that only began after the late middle ages or the Renaissance, as the nation states in western and central Europe began to develop their own form of political system, culture, and way of thinking. 

"Western Civilization" might have taken inspiration from the ancient Greeks and Romans, but I wouldn't classify Greco-Roman civilizations as "western", nor did they ever consider themselves as such. 
Back in Roman times "Oriental" referred to their Greek-speaking provinces in the Eastern Mediterranean. 
Many of the most Romanised and Hellenised regions are now in Muslim lands, and the direct descendant of the Roman Empire in the Middle Ages: the Byzantine Empire, was more of an Oriental Christian civilization (such as the Egyptian Copts, Armenians) than a western European civilization. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2011 at 01:34
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

I think certainly you're right, the least equal dog is the Chilean Mestizo called Penguin.


I haven't called you a dog. If you can't follow such a simple argument, how do you want I take you seriously.

And mestizo is my family problem, not yours, my dear camel rider.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2011 at 01:37
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

No chronological context as in the context of the use of the term.  For example, when we say West in a current affairs context then quite clearly we are referring to the EU, the US and their cultural offshoots.  In a Medieval sense it refers to Western European Christendom; in a classical context it refers to Greece.  So taken in context it is quite clear what the West refers to.  East is actually much more ambiguous because it can refer to Eastern Christendom (Russia etc) or any Asian country or bloc in the modern sense.


Baloney.

The problem is yours. You are confusing Western Civilisation with NATO. NATO is not a synonimous of the Western Civilisation, given countries like Japan aren't Western and overseas colonies like Australia don't count as such either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2011 at 01:41
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

Another point...

Regarding the definition of "western civilization". It really is something that only began after the late middle ages or the Renaissance, as the nation states in western and central Europe began to develop their own form of political system, culture, and way of thinking. 

"Western Civilization" might have taken inspiration from the ancient Greeks and Romans, but I wouldn't classify Greco-Roman civilizations as "western", nor did they ever consider themselves as such. 
Back in Roman times "Oriental" referred to their Greek-speaking provinces in the Eastern Mediterranean. 
Many of the most Romanised and Hellenised regions are now in Muslim lands, and the direct descendant of the Roman Empire in the Middle Ages: the Byzantine Empire, was more of an Oriental Christian civilization (such as the Egyptian Copts, Armenians) than a western European civilization. 


Pretty well. Rome is not western now? Confused

The confusion exists, but I believe the reason is rooted in the fact the ancient Greek-Roman world splitted in three zones: the Western Christianity, the Slav-Bizantine Christianity and the Middle East Islam. When historians talk about the west they usually reffer to Western Christianity, and sometimes to Europe as a whole.

Now, when contemporary manga consumers talk about the West, they usually mean N.A.T.O. Confused




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2011 at 01:44
No better example of the gobbledygook nonsense generated by the term "Western Civilization" can be provided than the Wiki entry for the term:
 
 
It's opening paragraph gives ample evidence of gratuitous assumptions and downright unhistorical assertions:
 
Roots of the Western civilization in its broader sense may be traced back to 9000 BC, when around the headwaters of the Euphrates, Tigris, and Jordan Rivers farming began, spreading outwards across Europe; the West thus produced the world's first cities, states, and empires. However, Western Civilization in its more strictly defined European sphere traces its roots back to classical antiquity. From European and Mediterranean origins, it has spread to produce the dominant cultures of modern North America, South America, and much of Oceania, and has had immense global influence in recent centuries.
 
This mishmosh is akin to the phony genealogies generated to establish Limpieza de Sangre so as to achieve passage to the Spanish Indies in the 16th century! By the way, it is this article that provoked my descriptive about "English speaking peoples". The entire article is not history but a panegyric of the worst sort that generates many a false connection to the detriment of an actual understanding of the multitudinous connections within World History itself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2011 at 02:15
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

No better example of the gobbledygook nonsense generated by the term "Western Civilization" can be provided ...


There are still better examples of gobbledygook.... I read yours posts, you know. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2011 at 03:57
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

No better example of the gobbledygook nonsense generated by the term "Western Civilization" can be provided ...


There are still better examples of gobbledygook.... I read yours posts, you know. Wink
 
Look who's squawking after one too many halibut! You are fast returning to your old habit of commenting about the person and not the topic at hand...and given the fact that there is an overabundance of dumb penguins in these environs you had best stop bringing attention to yourself before you get shot down. As it is your "reputation" is sufficient to discredit any noise from your remote roost.
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 27 Nov 2011 at 04:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2011 at 07:17
What came from "North-of-the- Meditteranean" would say far more, but is a far less short and "elegant" expression. And in many ways the seas - from the Black Sea, over the Meditteranean northern shores, the Northeast Atlantic to the Baltic and even the White Sea has been so important for making the lands between and their peoples and their histiory what they became and are - and later what it spread to the rest of the planet for better and for worse. The far more division was not any east-west "line", but coastland/interior - or "central" parts. Thanks to the development of not least transportation and communication technologies after the era when sails were the most advanced this region is probably not in a special position any more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2011 at 23:08
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


 
Look who's squawking after one too many halibut! You are fast returning to your old habit of commenting about the person and not the topic at hand...and given the fact that there is an overabundance of dumb penguins in these environs you had best stop bringing attention to yourself before you get shot down. As it is your "reputation" is sufficient to discredit any noise from your remote roost.
 


Dear Doc. Please don't forget I have shown yours ignorance several times. Perhaps you forgot when you confussed throwing sticks with boomerangs Big smile

Knowing that, perhaps you have more merits for the t-shirt above than this modest server. Wink


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2011 at 23:40
This thread opened with a question wether the "east" and "west" shifted to dominate.
If we look only at the region west of Russia, and ask if there were periods when the region prospered and other periods of relative decline we could try to give a sort of an answer. The picture then appears to be odd and even containing apparent paradoxes. For the last century we could argue for both a rise of Europe and a decline, depending upon what we regard as significant.
Arguments for "decline": The great European powers of 100 years ago lost their overseas empires, and their dominant position as well. The non european populations grew faster, and the most "modern" europeans lost a near monopoly of scientific and technological position (only rivalled by North Americans). Some of what characterised europeans, common traits of their culture, is much less clear. We may question wether we still have "Christendom" as something common., or the "greek - roman" heritage. On the other hand this part of the world changed from one a lot of its inhabitants tried to escape from, to an attractive one to others, at least for some time. A much wealthier, healthier, long lived population that since before mid-20th century lived in a perhaps unique period of relative peace, with a few exceptions. Most of the internal mutual hostility decreased or dissappeared.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 20:22
How could anyone possibly confuse Western Civilisation with NATO (NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANISATION - A MILITARY ALLIANCE)? 
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 20:29
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

I think certainly you're right, the least equal dog is the Chilean Mestizo called Penguin.


I haven't called you a dog. If you can't follow such a simple argument, how do you want I take you seriously.

And mestizo is my family problem, not yours, my dear camel rider.





So you see your own heritage as a problem? Explains a lot about the sh*t you post. 

Cyrus the Great usurped the Median Empire in battle using camel cavalry which scared the Median horse cavalry into chaos and rout.  Unfortunately, no camels where I was born - wonderful beasts that they are. Just fertile valleys, white mountains, plateaus and horses.  So you can call me your dear horse rider.


"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 23:50
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

How could anyone possibly confuse Western Civilisation with NATO (NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANISATION - A MILITARY ALLIANCE)? 
It is from the title of a book (I have no idea about the content other than this almost ridiculous title), and You are of course right that the military alliance is nothing like a "civilisation".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 00:11
Of course, but I understand what he means now.  He is referring to the NATO bloc as opposed to the Warsaw Pact bloc (West vs East) which is another thread in this discussion and brings into consideration other anachronistic terms such as 1st world, 2nd world and 3rd world which any educated person know does not refer to wealth but Cold War national allegiances.  Come to think of it, this same world order is reemerging but with realigned national allegiances.

This has nothing to do with civilisation as we note.  I was certainly not referring to this East/West comparison when talking of Western Civilisation.

Russia never has been part of Western Civilisation because it has an Eastern Orthodox church, if you believe in the Western vs Eastern designations that is.


Edited by Zagros - 29 Nov 2011 at 00:12
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 01:40
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Of course, but I understand what he means now.  He is referring to the NATO bloc as opposed to the Warsaw Pact bloc (West vs East)
A theme of the past. The borders between NATO and WAPA differed from any previous cultural division, though there were differences between eastern and western parts of Europe for centuries. But of course it was tempting to use "division between civilisations"(or "Civilisation vs. barbary") in the propaganda, forgetting there were membersof the same peoples on each side, and on the other hand very different nations in the same alliances (ex: Norway, Italy, Turkey). Then there is the possibility that political division can create or deepen cultural divides,and I have the idea this actually happened to some degree.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

which is another thread in this discussion and brings into consideration other anachronistic terms such as 1st world, 2nd world and 3rd world which any educated person know does not refer to wealth but Cold War national allegiances.
Once it did, but languages develops, and "contents" and meanings of words change with time.
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


This has nothing to do with civilisation as we note.  I was certainly not referring to this East/West comparison when talking of Western Civilisation.

Russia never has been part of Western Civilisation because it has an Eastern Orthodox church, if you believe in the Western vs Eastern designations that is.
If the "dominant" church and creed define what is meant by a "civilisation" - and in this case the "Western" one, we could ask if it is already to some degree an idea of the past, since many parts of Western Europe are not at all that christian - and the same is the case for some of the eastern parts of the region. On the other hand Christian faith has expanded outside its "traditional area".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 01:50
Quote If the "dominant" church and creed define what is meant by a "civilisation" - and in this case the "Western" one, we could ask if it is already to some degree an idea of the past, since many parts of Western Europe are not at all that christian - and the same is the case for some of the eastern parts of the region. On the other hand Christian faith has expanded outside its "traditional area".


Of course it is an idea of the past since Western Civilisation is now secular and why we have a consensus amongst the thinkers in this thread that the term West is actually defunct.  However, what is past determines what is to come and why history as a subject is so important in politics, a fact lost on Western politicians except in hyperbole they likely do not themselves understand, especially the American numpties now vying for command over the biggest stockpile of WMD in history.

Quote Once it did, but languages develops, and "contents" and meanings of words change with time.


Indeed it does hence the terms "developing", "wealthy", "industrialised" etc.  1st, 2nd 3rd world only came into that usage by idiots in the media who didn't actually understand it thus the third world (non aligned nations) which mainly consisted of developing/poor countries came into popular usage as a synonym for deprived and poor.

Quote A theme of the past. The borders between NATO and WAPA differed from any previous cultural division, though there were differences between eastern and western parts of Europe for centuries. But of course it was tempting to use "division between civilisations"(or "Civilisation vs. barbary") in the propaganda, forgetting there were membersof the same peoples on each side, and on the other hand very different nations in the same alliances (ex: Norway, Italy, Turkey). Then there is the possibility that political division can create or deepen cultural divides,and I have the idea this actually happened to some degree.


Agree but we've put this one to bed now as it is not a civlisation designator.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 02:20
My point of view is: we still need words for different parts of the world, the peoples living there, and, especially the one of us interested in history and/or society, their past. Since I am not any "authority" of language (I have the ugly suspicion few here would accept me as such!) I use the "common" words, even when I am not completely satisfied (though I avoid the use of "European Continent", since i regard mainland Europe as a peninsula on the greater landmass to the east I think that should be done from a purely geographical point of view.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 02:30
If one is an actual Historian and not a twaddler of peculiarisms a la el Pinguino--he who listens to himself as the voice of authority
 
 
--then reality demands that the overarching assumption that governs historical narrative with respect to civilization is the commonality of the human experience in the search for effective organization granting security within the ambits of a hostile environment. That in a nutshell is what constitutes civilization and the problems faced by one particular grouping are identical to the ones faced by all others. All of this yammer about peculiar and distinctive customs involve the subsidiary term better identified as culture, yet one can not ignore the fact that while culture may become a physical material generated by the beliefs, customs, and actions of a certain people, such does not ever become a "whole". It is the element of "wholeness" that sets civilization apart.
 
Here are some caveats:
 
1.Culture is by definition smaller than a civilization.
2.Culture can grow and exist without residing in a formal civilization whereas a civilization will never grow and exist without the element of culture.
3.Culture can be tangible or intangible whereas civilization is something that is more tangible because it is what you see as a whole
4.Culture can be transmitted through symbols in the form of language whereas an entire civilization cannot be transmitted by mere language alone.
 
[a tip of the hat to www.differencebetween.net ]

 

 




Edited by drgonzaga - 29 Nov 2011 at 02:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 10:22
Why don't we see the map Huntington defined? No matter he  excluded us from the holly West, and considered Jazz a western music and Mariachi to be allien noises, he was close enough.

Here it goes:




Edited by pinguin - 29 Nov 2011 at 10:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2011 at 23:50
Though I never read the "Clash of civilisations.." I wonder why he in some cases define a "Civilisation" simply by (majority) religion but in other cases seems to use other criteria too(or at least see itself as such).
Orthodox Christianity is a form of Christianity too (like the Coptic, armenian, Georgian and Ethiopian churches), and Latin is a language criteria - originally south european, known in many places(even here) long before in any part of the americas. Then:Is Huntingdon worth reading?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2011 at 12:52
If you ask me, I believe the Orthodox "block" is just another branch of the European civilisation.
I don't know why Huntington avoided the use of the word "European" to define its civilisations.
In that sense, there are regions world from where the Europeans originated (Europe, of course) and regions settled mainly by the Europeans, that stablished theirs culture, language, religions, laws and traditions there. There settled regions are the countries British origin (Canada-U.S.-Australia-New Zealand) the Iberian origin (Hispanic America and Brasil), and most of Polynesia.

In other parts of the world, there were colonies but the civilisation of the subjects didn't change much, and the blood contribution was marginal. Of course, there will always be some controversy to where draw the line. For instance, it is Phillipines Spanish rooted? Is Macao culture based in Portugal mainly? Is India a produce of its ancient civilisation or the Brits?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2011 at 17:32
Not all Christian civilizations are "European". Remember, the religion itself originated in the Middle East and during the Roman Empire it had been a more dominant religion in the eastern provinces (Syria, Anatolia, Jordan, Egypt) than in the west.
I don't think anyone today would call Coptic, Lebanese, Syrian, Iraqui and Armenian Christians part of "western culture" because they're not and they never have been.

I wouldn't even consider Byzantine as a "European civilization" as the heart of its empire was situated in Asia Minor and its capital Constantinople was situated right on the bridge between Asia and Europe. Many of its political and religious institutions also evolved independently from most of the European feudal states in the Middle Ages.

It'd be more adequate to say that "western civilization inherited partly from western Christian culture" rather than "Christian culture is inherited from the west".
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drgonzaga View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2011 at 19:46
What can one say about Huntington other than his cartography is ill thought and more symptomatic of a disease than a valid construct. Huntington's disease in this instance represents the malaise of racism disguised as superficial culturalism with a heavy dose of religious bigotry for the sake of political blather. Any definition of civilization is naturally a materialistic one and when the term is employed within the parameters of historiography it implies the type of culture and society developed by a particular group or region and within the parameters of an epoch. In terms of our own time any effort to discern differences with respect to what constitutes "an advanced state of cultural, intellectual, and material development within the ambit of complex political and social institutions" becomes foolhardy because the patterns of culture in materialistic terms are now globally homogenous.  Is there such a creature that can be recognized as "Latin American Civilization" under any valid criteria? Of course not unless one is ready to revive the early 20th century nonsense about "our little brown brothers". Only the amorphous mental processes of a political "scientist" could envision Greenland as an example of "Western" civilization and Siberia as a bastion of Orthodoxy; hence, Huntington's effort at tinting the globe is akin to "painting the roses red" in Wonderland. The complexities of heritage in a modern setting do not translate as valid parameters for the definition of civilization within any construct of modernity and the eruption of skyscrapers, like so many pussy pimples, from Buenos Aires through Qatar and Kuala Lumpur to Shanghai suffices to put paid on Huntington's pretensions.  
Honi soit qui mal y pense
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