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Education and Democracy

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    Posted: 05 Jul 2019 at 02:38
Without education to defend our democracy, the Constitution of the US is not defended.  We ended education for democracy with the 1958 National Defense Education Act and the social, economic and political ramifications of this change are huge!  

The US is now what it defended its democracy against.  Instead of our schools producing well rounded and independent thinkers prepared for citizenship and civic and industrial leadership, our young are prepared to be specializing the parts to serve the Military Industrial Complex and instead of independent thinking, they are prepared are for "group think".   That is a serious shift in power and authority.  Our politics are now reactionary and the branches of government have degenerated into power conflicts that threaten to destroy our Republic as the Republic of Germany was destroyed.   

In his 1943 book "Is Germany Incurable?" Richard M. Brickner, M.D. describes paranoia as an excessive need to be superior and in control.  The US adopted the German model of bureaucracy and the German model of education and is now just as paranoid as Germany became.  

Hitler's term for this social organization was New World Order.  Eisenhower's term for this is Military Industrial Complex.  Eisenhower explained why this national change is necessary and he warned of its dangers.  Also the National Defense Education Act he asked congress to pass, had a 4 year limit, but once it was in place we never returned to the education for citizenship we had.  Our failure to be conscious of the bureaucratic and education changes makes us a culture in crisis.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2019 at 03:12
I think Brickner's idea that Germany suffered from more than mild insanity during the years of the Nazi Party is logical. That is, it was the channeling of group hysteria, fear and desperation to control "others" describes at least 3 generations of Germans, WW1 adults, their children and grandchildren.  

Would you elaborate on the details of changes made to schools based on Germany's model?
I don't have the book is not available on scribd but I looked at some abstracts online. Thanks


Edited by Vanuatu - 05 Jul 2019 at 03:13
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2019 at 10:18
Was Germany incurable?  Was it cured or does it remain uncured?  Insanity is a psychological state of an individual, I am not sure how that works when talking about populations.  People can, as far as I understand it, be paranoid as a group, but I would argue that Germany _was_ technologically and culturally superior prior to the outbreak of WWII, but they were not in control, due to the penalties of the Versailles conference.  There were reasons for their paranoia, and resentment.  It is not just paranoia that is playing a role, but more importantly, resentment.  At least I would argue, more important at the beginning.

But, was Germany incurable? and if it was incurable then what about conditions in Germany now?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2019 at 11:12
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

I think Brickner's idea that Germany suffered from more than mild insanity during the years of the Nazi Party is logical. That is, it was the channeling of group hysteria, fear and desperation to control "others" describes at least 3 generations of Germans, WW1 adults, their children and grandchildren.  

Would you elaborate on the details of changes made to schools based on Germany's model?
I don't have the book is not available on scribd but I looked at some abstracts online. Thanks

Clap  An intelligent reply!  I think I am going into a state of shock.  This is different from the insanity I have been dealing with.  I hope I don't wake up and find this is just a dream.  

This post would be too long if I gave you all the information at once.  I will begin with William James 1899 book "TALKS TO TEACHERS ON PSYCHOLOGY: AND TO STUDENTS ON SOME OF LIFE'S IDEALS".

"If we reflect upon the various ideals of education that are prevalent in the different countries, we see that what they all aim at is to organize capacities for conduct.  This is most immediately obvious in Germany, where the explicitly avowed aim of the higher education is to turn the student into an instrument for advancing scientific discovery.  The German universities are proud of the number of young specialists whom they turn out every year,- not necessarily men of any original force of intellect, but men so trained to research that when their professor gives them an historical or philological thesis to prepare, or a bit of laboratory work to do, with a general indication as to the best method, they can go off by themselves and use apparatus and consult sources in such a way as to grind out in the prerequisite number of months some little peppercorn of new truth worthy of being added to the store of extant human information on that subject.  Little else is recognized in Germany as a man's title to show himself an efficient instrument of research."  

Now today a person might ask why William James did not seem to approve of the German focus of education.   We might want to know what England and the US were doing differently and we can get to that.  If you are interested I can quote from a book recording the speeches given at the 1917 National Education Association Conference and what J. A. B. Sinclair, Surgeon, United States Navy, Portland Recruiting Station, Portland, Ore. had to say about why we should imitate German education.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2019 at 12:15
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Was Germany incurable?  Was it cured or does it remain uncured?  Insanity is a psychological state of an individual, I am not sure how that works when talking about populations.  People can, as far as I understand it, be paranoid as a group, but I would argue that Germany _was_ technologically and culturally superior prior to the outbreak of WWII, but they were not in control, due to the penalties of the Versailles conference.  There were reasons for their paranoia, and resentment.  It is not just paranoia that is playing a role, but more importantly, resentment.  At least I would argue, more important at the beginning.

But, was Germany incurable? and if it was incurable then what about conditions in Germany now?  

Thumbs Up  Another impressive post.  I am loving this.

I would say Germany is cured.  That is a whole different subject from why it was paranoid and why the US might want to rethink its present opinion of itself as being superior and needing to take control the world.   I do not believe the problem began with defeat in WWI.  I would say the problem began with the Prussian take over Germany following the 30 Years War that devastated Germany.  I get this opinion from Charles Sarolea's book "The Anglo-German problem" warning the world that Germany was mobilizing for war before the start of the first world war.  

I speak of such matters not because I am sure or what I think, but I am not at peace with my thoughts and want feedback and correction if I am wrong.  

I would argue the paranoia resulted from Christianity (this is about obedience to authority verses being the authority) and remember Germany was the seat of the Holy Roman Empire and the Reformation.   There is a lot of paradox in this.  

Added to that, I believe applying the Prussian bureaucratic order to citizens is both a necessary evil and seriously problematic when there is no awareness of this reality and a possible different one.  It is this lack of awareness that results in imbalances.   German citizens today, have much more control than they had under the influence of Prussia. 

Finally, education for the Prussian ideal of organized capacity of conduct throws everything over the edge.  Then you may have an authoritarian republic, but it is not a democracy as the US was once upon a time a democracy where all children were prepared for civic and industrial leadership.  The US had strong citizen control over governing authority because of its completely different history and its bureaucratic organization was extremely weak!  Problem is, the difference in our history doesn't really matter when our past culture is no longer transmitted, in preference to preparing the young to serve the Military Industrial Complex that is organized by Prussian bureaucracy.  There, that was perfectly clear and easy to follow wasn't it?  Wacko
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2019 at 12:15
Carol wrote
Quote Clap  An intelligent reply!  I think I am going into a state of shock.  This is different from the insanity I have been dealing with.  I hope I don't wake up and find this is just a dream. 

No dream, situation normal for us.

A good post, BTW. Handshake
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2019 at 16:04
From what I understand in the 19th century, Germany had a problem feeding itself.  France and England had their colonies to draw upon, whereas Germany got the runt of the litter.  That led to Germany getting more into science, looking for fertilizers, and developing thermos bottles, which had the "practical" influence in rocketry.  So, yes, the Germans looked to the technician as an answer to their situation.
But the Germans also had a strong tradition in universities and music.  All those little principalities as a matter of pride had their own university and their own symphony.  They still existed when Germany was united.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2019 at 01:35
Franciscosan, You have no idea how happy you made me.  How did you come across that information?  I am not sure where I came across the early German interest in Science and technology, but as I recollect they have always been unique in that way.  That is why I bought the book about Germany, along with knowing we adopted their model of education.  Truly I would like to know your source of information so I can check it out.  

I believe the Germans to the west had good soil and a different personality than the Prussians to the east.  At least Charles Sarolea said there was a difference.  

Following your lead I did a brief search of the Mongol Conquest to Frederick II and the Holy Roman Empire.  This is an effort to understand the influences that shaped the Prussians and Germans to the west.  Frederick is someone I would like to know better as he was so literate and interested in science and technology and Nietzsche thought well of him. Nietzsche was a strong influence in German history and Nietzsche seems to have replaced our interest in the Greek and Roman Classics.

Mongols of course carried China's technology west, and required a strong opposition.  I have a vague memory of the Germanic people being fierce warriors.  It was said Prussia lived for a love of war.  Would you know anything of this?  

LOL  This is so much better than defending myself against attacks for spreading Military Industrial Conspiracy theory.  It is impossible to have good discussions with ignorant people, and informed people open a world of exciting information.   I am like the robot in Short Circuit.  I want more information, more information.  Hey, can I change my name from Carol to Number 5, the name of the short circuited robot?      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2019 at 04:21
Hi there Athena, aka Carol Smile
I would like to hear about the differences in the US/UK/German education systems.
Paraphrase if you like, I'm comfortable with your knowledge of the subject. Thanks 
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 01:00
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Hi there Athena, aka Carol Smile
I would like to hear about the differences in the US/UK/German education systems.
Paraphrase if you like, I'm comfortable with your knowledge of the subject. Thanks 

Well I have information from different sources and I will gladly provide those sources.  Books were written on the history of education and I would like people to know education has many different purposes and the main focus of education changed over time.  

William James is the one who contrasted the education of those three nations in 1899.  Germany was the only nation with education focused on technology.  The UK wanted to avoid education for technology because such an education means a person from the poorest class can rise to the top, and the UK wanted to protect its class system.  At least those in the seats of power wanted to protect the old system. 

You might image the US would embrace education for technology because it does lead to greater equality.  However, that was slow in coming.  The UK education taught the young to be good British citizens.  This is learning a defined character through literature.  The US was doing the same thing.  Other than learning to read, write, speak well, and do math, US education had nothing to do with education for technology until 1917.  Even at a college level education there was more focused on a religiously valued education that we would laugh at today.   

Oh dear, the more I contemplate how to answer your question, the more difficult that answer gets.  I hate dealing with the religious issue but there is no way to avoid it.  There was a fundamental difference between UK and US education.  The UK wanted to protect its classes and religion played a strong roll in this, the notion that God is control and we are born into our positions.  The US ideal came from the enlightenment and sought to manifest equality by lifting everyone up.  The US modeled its education after Athens.  We had education for well round individual growth and prepared everyone for civic and industrial leadership.  A very small portion of the population was Deist. Disapprove  Ah, you might be aware of the conflict between those pagans who gave us democracy and the religious group?   

Liberal education did prepare everyone for science as coming from the enlightenment faith was put in science and technology more so than religion.  Opposition to the liberal education we had, is very suspect.  Ouch, this is a touchy subject and I am not sure how to manage it without offending people.   For bloody sure, we had education for good moral judgment, based on the enlightenment idea of moral judgement.  Education for technology and leaving moral training to the church, as Germany did, is a huge mistake!    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 12:10
Frederich the great was encouraged by Voltaire, although they had a falling out, he wrote a treatise criticizing Machiavelli called the Anti-Machiavell (no 'i').  I seem to remember that the Mongols were turned back at Vienna.  I believe that they were not involved with Germany proper.  The Holy Roman Empire was said to be neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.  I believe there were Prussian knights coming out of the Middle Ages (Teutonic knights??), there is a reason why the USSR kept that area (Prussia) after WWII and it is now a region of Russia separated off from the rest from the Baltic States, Konigsberg became Kalinograd (sp?).

I studied German in High School, so I don't know where I came across the information.  But if you look at Oktoberfest, that was originally a holiday to drink the old beer, so you could store the new beer.  Again, Germany developed the thermos bottle, which lead to the development of liquid rockets (which are just giant thermos bottles), they also worked on trying to develop fertilizers, but instead developed new colors of ink.  (try to do one thing, get another).  Eventually a Jewish German scientist developed nitrogen fixation of the soil, he won a Noble medal, but was also wanted for war crimes (not by Germany) because he developed poison gas for the war effort (WWI).

Maybe the right question is not, why did Germany develop science and technology, but why did Great Britain and France not develop it?  British education was more focused on the Classics, but also the Roman Empire of which they kind of looked upon themselves as the successors.  You had the tradition of the Amateur scholar in Great Britain, in the sciences however, this, in my understanding with Julian? Huxley, known as Darwin's pitbull, changed when the amateur naturalists started being viewed as a nuisance to University professionals, like Huxley.  A good part of that tradition of amateur naturalists included clergy, who supported by the Church of England, had free time on their hands, and may have been appointed to more obscure parts of the country.

Germany is an intellectual powerhouse because of all those little (former) principalities having, as a matter of prestige, their own Universities.  Also a musical powerhouse because all those principalities had orchestras or symphonies.  France was more a matter of the philosophs.  They probably were shut out of the Universities there, but there was an incomplete censorship.  What I mean by that is you could publish controversial material for a first printing, but then censorship would clamp down.  So therefore, first printing could be quite large (and lucrative), after the first printing, stuff could be published in the Netherlands, which was protestant, entrepreneurs, and didn't really care.  

I don't know what France was like in the 1800s, however, Simone Weil said that the French Revolution was a conservative revolution, not a liberal one.  It was at least initially not the intellectuals who took over but the mob, and the Terror.

Whereas, Germany may have emphasized technical education, it seems to me, that Britain and the US were at the forefront of industrialization.  Also, I don't know John Dewey very well, but he wrote on education, and I thought that his purpose of schools was to turn out good workers (good drones?), not necessarily good citizens.  Thomas Jefferson emphasized three years of reading, writing, and aRithmetic.  Enough in his opinion for people to educate themselves.  Of course, there still is liberal education, but it is not so liberal anymore, and is like a prolonged childhood for many.

Oh, there is a book called something like "the tyranny of Greece over Germany."  The Germans felt a cultural affinity to Greece, but not so much the democracy of Athens.  German language has some affinities to ancient Greek, and the Germans made the most of that.  German like Greek has masculine, feminine and neuter nouns.  Unlike French or Spanish or Italian which are romance languages, Germany doesn't have that Latin filter.  Germans liked to believe, that like the Greeks, they had a more Indo-European connection or we might say, Indo-Aryan.  We can see where that ended up.
The Germans emphasized the history of Alexander of Macedon, probably also Sparta, Olympia or Thebes sacred band, not that they ignored Athens.  One German scholar on Alexander the great is Wilken who kind of saw in Alexander a predecessor to the Prussian state.

I have not presented this in the most fluid way, but I hope you'll find some food for thought here, and elsewhere.  If you have specific statements you want me to further comment on, (or try to remember a source), let me know, but again, it is bits and pieces vaguely remembered over 30 years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2019 at 03:05
Wow you studied Germany in high school?  Where were you educated?  Any idea who made that decision to teach about Germany?  Would mind giving the dates for you education?  Was it before or after 1958? 

You know of many interesting things.  This got my attention  "tradition of amateur naturalists".  Did I say I am working on a book? The last thing I need is to add more information, but you have resolved a problem that has been troubling me.  How to explain that liberal education was very much about science.  People think it is education for technology that put us on the path to science, but that is not at all true.  People don't understand what education for science has to do with democracy and our liberty and that is tragic.  Their heads are all messed with technology as some kind of god and money being the most important value.  I think our human values are all messed up, and I will welcome any agreements to the contrary.

Anyway back to what you said, you got me to open one of my books on the history of education and I was able to find what you have talked about on page 522 of A TEST-BOOK INT THE HISTORY OF EDUCATION by Paul Monroe, Ph.D.  I quote...

"In a sense, Locke is the founder of the naturalistic movement in education, for in many respects, Rousseau Freely acknowledges indebtedness to him.  Yet, as has been previously noticed, there was fundamental disagreement on the most vital point, in that Locke held that the very purpose of education was to thwart and thus, through discipline, to bring under then control of reason and authority the natural tendencies of the child.  The sensationalism of Locke became the philosophical basis of the naturalism of Rousseau so far as it sought one in the nature of knowledge.  Both Believing that education must be based upon a sound physique, cared for as a distinct plan of education; both believed that education in its earlier stages was a training in sense perception; both held that the process of education should be made pleasurable and the harshness ..."

Forcing a child to sit still in a classroom all day and even taking away recess time and physical education is hateful, and unfit for a society of well rounded individuals capable of improving the human condition.  Arguments to the contrary are appreciated.  

You wrote "Germany is an intellectual powerhouse because of all those little (former) principalities having, as a matter of prestige, their own Universities.  Also a musical powerhouse because all those principalities had orchestras or symphonies.  France was more a matter of the philosophy."   There is a brilliant explanation of the importance of culture.  You said the question should be " why did Germany develop science and technology, but why did Great Britain and France not develop it?" I think the answer is Prussia?  Again I welcome arguments to the contrary.  

Rome adopted Athens technology but not its culture.  When military men took over the control of Rome, don't you think that would effect the culture of Rome or maybe the other way around, the defense need of Rome changed its culture making military leadership more attractive?     Prussia lived for a love of military might.  Following the 30 Years War Prussia took control of all of Germany, and that made raising in the military ranks prestigious.   Fathers would encourage their daughters to marry a general, whereas in the US fathers would encourage their daughters to marry industrial leaders.  See an important difference there?  

Prussia centralized education, destroyed Germany's national heroes and convinced everyone that their bureaucratic order and efficiency was superior to the old order.  This mentality makes humans as an ant hill, far more than the culture we once had that advanced individualism.  Arguments to the contrary appreciated.   See the marvelous architecture and other works of art left to us because of government spending during the Great Depression.  Does your local school prepare students for the arts?  Does you local school have a debate team and public speaking?  Does your community support the arts?  Fortunately mine does, but the communities next to mine do not.  What kind of life does education for technology prepare our young to have?  What is important to civilization?  

Oh man, the alarm went off.  I hope I have the energy to return to your post when I get back.  Thank you so much for your thoughts.  They are very important to me.  




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2019 at 10:23
franciscosan "I don't know what France was like in the 1800s, however, Simone Weil said that the French Revolution was a conservative revolution, not a liberal one.  It was at least initially not the intellectuals who took over but the mob, and the Terror."

People don't read long post and our post have been too long and complex and there isn't a strong interest in education so I am going to turn your question into its own thread.  I will also get the lectures about Utopia and Terror from the library.  I think it can be argued that Intellectuals did begin the revolution but the effort to make change spun out of control.  I vaguely remember France was having an economic problem and the king had to tax the elite and they refused to accept that.  Then things spun out of control.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2019 at 11:01
franciscosan "Whereas, Germany may have emphasized technical education, it seems to me, that Britain and the US were at the forefront of industrialization."

There is no end to how many directions this discussion could take.  Scott Nearing, Ph. D.'s 1916 book "Poverty and Riches" seems to question if Germany should be our WWI enemy.  This is perhaps a subject to take up in alternative histories.  What if the US had taken Germany's side?  The Germans had a much better standard of living than the British and the industrial history of Britain is horrifying!  The Germans had a higher standard of living because Bismark applied Prussian military bureaucracy to citizens, giving them a national health plan, worker's compensation and national pension plan, and the Germans had better education for children.   The industrial history of the US could have been as bad as Britain's if it had not been for an interest in Germany education and also the West with all its resources.  Britain's working masses had no place to go to escape the hellish conditions of Britain's industrial cities.  In the US they could go West and have a chance of having better lives.  

Just before the first world war the US protect children with a law forbidding them from working during school hours.  When we mobilized for war, Industry attempted to close the schools claiming the war caused a labor shortage and that they were not getting their monies worth from education because they still had to train new employees.   Had Industry won their argument that would have been the end of the law keeping children out of Industry during school hours.  But both Industry and the Military immediately needed laborers trained for modern technology so there was a compromise.  The schools would be kept open and the schools would become vocational trainers.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2019 at 11:24
franciscosan "Also, I don't know John Dewey very well, but he wrote on education, and I thought that his purpose of schools was to turn out good workers (good drones?), not necessarily good citizens.  Thomas Jefferson emphasized three years of reading, writing, and aRithmetic.  Enough in his opinion for people to educate themselves.  Of course, there still is liberal education, but it is not so liberal anymore, and is like a prolonged childhood for many." 

I know there is much hatred of John Dewey and I am not sure it is justified.  His books are extremely hard to read, so I never plowed my way through them, but I really like some of this thoughts.  He was important to getting education going in the USSR but when the government of the USSR decided indoctrination was the most important use of education, they dropped Dewey and I thought that was because Dewey favored independent thinking.  But Christians are not in favor of such independent thinking and I thought that was why they hated him.  I will have to look into that.

Thomas Jefferson thought education was vital to a strong Republic.  He devoted his life and fortune to developing education.  

Liberal education is for free people prepared to be civic and industrial leaders, and as you brought up, prepared people for science and studying nature.  Now here I see an economic problem with education because when we had one room school houses, some schools were lucky to have a book that the children could share.  These schools could not rooms and books for science, but there was an attempt to interest children in all subjects.  Today it is the arts and music that get cut from the budget of money and time.  Heavens forbid if children spend their time on such fluff.  But this change is a cultural change that I think we need to consider because I do think we are preparing our young for the democracy we defended in two world wars.  

Education for technology has always been education for slaves.  We do not think of our present education for technology as education for slavery, but is a specialist prepared for self government, or dependency on a higher authority?   What qualifies a specialist to make decisions that effect everyone?   When Bush said he would attack Iraq, how many people used their computers to learn about Iraq instead of just rely on what the media was telling them?  I don't think our education for technology has given us the mental tools we need to be self governing people?   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2019 at 13:29
So where's your german model now eh?Wink
Graduates today in the US are overflowing in the Liberal Arts dept, Liberal education is producing graduates who are primed for non profits but lack practical computer skills. Higher education is a system of indoctrination for expanded government through human services. Massive student loan debt encourages indentured servitude in exchange for a loan repayment reduction, say yes to employment in a violent market that is dependent on federal dollars to exist. Nothing created -but bureaucracy and paper work.

Are you saying the education model of Prussia was used by crazy Germans and thus the homogeneous worker class is bad? Or conservatism is bad?

The Naturalists rediscovering man's connection to nature was a race and a competition to find an ancestor linking the home country- say Britain, to an Original Man. It's never purely without politics is it?

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I don't know much about Dewey, read a couple of articles, 20 years ago, but generally he is ignored in philosophy these days, as far as I can tell.  I got the impression that he set up the school like the factory or something like that.  I will have to look him up on wikipedia.

Who are you addressing Vanuatu?

When the Athenians converted their economy into oil production and exportation, and instead imported grain, that was a specialization.  I think specialization is a response to an economic situation, one that depends less on raw materials and more on finished products.

Simone Weil wrote about the French Revolution being a conservative one, but I did not finish her essay, and so do not have a good grasp on it.  She was brilliant, but I don't have a good grasp on French history, which is part of the problem.  I was wondering if you knew anything about that?

I took two (month long) Summer sessions at Concordia College language camp for German, and a year of High School German, so about the equivalent of 3 years, plus a trip to Germany, Austria, Switzerland.  The trip was in 1985, the year I graduated from Public High School.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 07:29
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I don't know much about Dewey, read a couple of articles, 20 years ago, but generally he is ignored in philosophy these days, as far as I can tell.  I got the impression that he set up the school like the factory or something like that.  I will have to look him up on wikipedia.

Who are you addressing Vanuatu?
Carol, franciscosan, the group, anyone? 
I can follow the shrinks through time- John Dewey promoted Functionalism after Darwin and James, that led to Piaget's Constructivism, that is all indisputable. 

I don't doubt the origin of James' ideas (Prussia, ok) it just hasn't existed in the US. The causes and root causes for the decline in education vary depending who you ask. Thomas Sowell, said in his book Black Rednecks... and  in a youtube excerpt, that the quality of public schools after WW2 in New York City was excellent. The majority of test scores start to plummet with LBJ and the increase in social programs, so called "War on Poverty". Spiraling downward economic insecurity lead to harmful subculture and the break up of families and higher birthrates among people out of wedlock.

This isn't the influence of Functionalism, please explain if you see Functionalism working through government handouts?

Quote but I don't have a good grasp on French history, which is part of the problem.  I was wondering if you knew anything about that?
I know a little, Robespierre, that's another thread my friend. see you there


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Three things looking at Dewey's wikipedia page,
1)  It seems that he presupposes a certain notion of democracy, that later feeds into SDS participatory democracy, which feeds into charismatic leaders leading groups, and technocrats leading on issues.  I think most education is for democracy, in the sense that you don't know what you need.  To focus on "democracy," is to advocate a particular kind of democracy, to the detriment of others, as far as I see it.
2)  The description of teachers seems to be from Lake Woebegon, everybody is above average.  I would argue that what you need in teachers is teacher that will "teach" the children to be anti-fragile, to have thick skin, you want enthusiasm in the kids, but you want a little thick skin too.  That is better for the work place.
3)  I am not sure that Dewey got it, Stalin was a mass murderer, and Trotsky was a mass murderer wanna-be.  Maybe it was a good idea to save Trotsky from (extradition?? to) Stalin, but not because he was any better.

Most philosophy in American Universities these days are either British Analytic or Continental European, with American Pragmatism influencing those two.  James and Pierce are the main individuals having an influence.  I don't know about Dewey so much, maybe he is influential in education departments, my guess is that he was influential in his day, but is more of a historical intellectual influence today (intellectual history).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2019 at 02:04
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

So where's your german model now eh?Wink
Graduates today in the US are overflowing in the Liberal Arts dept, Liberal education is producing graduates who are primed for non profits but lack practical computer skills. Higher education is a system of indoctrination for expanded government through human services. Massive student loan debt encourages indentured servitude in exchange for a loan repayment reduction, say yes to employment in a violent market that is dependent on federal dollars to exist. Nothing created -but bureaucracy and paper work.

Are you saying the education model of Prussia was used by crazy Germans and thus the homogeneous worker class is bad? Or conservatism is bad?

The Naturalists rediscovering man's connection to nature was a race and a competition to find an ancestor linking the home country- say Britain, to an Original Man. It's never purely without politics is it?


Excellent job of finding talking points.  It is not what happens in higher education that matters to me.  It is those first 12 grades that are vitally important.  

I am not sure indoctrination is a bad thing.  It is required for all groups of people because there is no group, tribe, civilization without it.   For example- I am a Hopi and not an Apache because I learned the ways of my people and they are not the same as the ways of the Apache.  I am loyal to "my people" and will defend them from "those people".  So now, are our people great warriors or are they people of peace?   Again and again our indoctrination was of peace and equality and human rights and human dignity, but now it is very clearly indoctrination for military might, competition, and an amoral society. People who think they have rights but not duties and are not good citizens in a democracy.  This troubles me a lot.    

Wow I just googled for an explanation of adopting the German model of education and there is a lot of information!  What is happening?  When I started there was no useful information on the web for understanding the change in education or the Military Industrial Complex and now there is a lot of information!Thumbs Up   I perceive a huge shift in our consciousness and this is very exciting to me.  

Something that is not coming up in the explanations is the relationship between the bureaucratic model and education.  Our bureaucratic model was totally dependent on strong, individual leaders who could take charge like a captain on a ship and get things done.  What made the US different from Germany is, as fast as our leaders in war were taken out, another would take his place.  Our pilots made their own decisions and this was a advantage when fighting an air force dependent on orders.  
Under the democratic model of industry, everyone is prepared to rise to the top.  Under the autocratic model, "of course we don't promote the laborer, but only those who are one of us".  

Confused I am dying here.  What I am saying is so complex and now my sister is in my head, telling me my wording isn't right and I sound like a nut.  She is much better at organizing my words, but doesn't have the concepts I have picked up over the years.  Our democracy has always been threatened by autocracy.  Our industry was modeled after England's autocracy and despite all our talk about democracy, we are very autocratic.  Autocracy is efficient, democracy is not.  Without education for democracy, the autocratic force is taking over, and with the Prussian bureaucratic model, autocracy can rule and be very powerful, crushing individual liberty and power.   Problem is the bureaucratic order we had was inefficient, vulnerable, and could not possibly manage social programs like Social Security.  Look what happened when Lincoln was killed.  All his policies died with him, and what was done to the South was very bad and nothing like the union Lincoln wanted to create.  Leaders die, and everything goes into chaos until everyone adjust to a new leader.  Rule by policy lives on and on and on, and it takes an act of congress to change anything.   Some people are thrilled with the idea of computers ruling our lives, and that wouldn't be a big, noticeable change from the bureaucratic order we are under now.  Effectively we have computer control now, only the organization of it isn't hard wires, but humans programmed to follow the program that is "policy". 

Is that what you were talking about when you explained liberal education and dependency on the government for jobs?  Your concern is valid but based on incomplete information.   That is just as much education for the Military Industrial Complex, as an engineering degree and using it to develop weapons, in a community that is dependent on government jobs that include but are not limited to the military industry.  Our national strength now depends on this bureaucratic order that manages our lives, just as Tocqueville warned in his 1800 book "Democracy in America."

My goal is to increase awareness of what bureaucratic order and education have to do with one another.   Did I achieve it or totally fail?  



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Both of you are doing great and Cry  I have to go to work.  I will return as soon as possible.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 00:37

Quote Thumbs Up   I perceive a huge shift in our consciousness and this is very exciting to me.
 

Very kool Thumbs Up

Quote Some people are thrilled with the idea of computers ruling our lives, and that wouldn't be a big, noticeable change from the bureaucratic order we are under now.  Effectively we have computer control now, only the organization of it isn't hard wires, but humans programmed to follow the program that is "policy".
Right, so the more bureaucracy the less humanity actually involved ironically effecting the fields designated for the well being of humans like clinical psychology. 

Quote Is that what you were talking about when you explained liberal education and dependency on the government for jobs?  Your concern is valid but based on incomplete information. 

Ok well then here you must explain how a government bureaucracy and the manner of humans since recorded history differ in grooming their young for war or work. 
The MIC is a large part of the Zeitgeist overview of history where the Rothchilds and other wealthy families in congruence for centuries, plot for constant war. I agree the old money and the old families have the most influence. In the Unites States the Lobbyist is fronting for corporations so they can make war.

Indoctrination is unavoidable but humans have historically separated themselves from group think under great duress and at great costs to themselves. The group think is sometimes wrong headed.
The first indoctrination is into your family or group as an infant, it's not always good for the individual.


Quote That is just as much education for the Military Industrial Complex, as an engineering degree and using it to develop weapons, in a community that is dependent on government jobs that include but are not limited to the military industry.  Our national strength now depends on this bureaucratic order that manages our lives, just as Tocqueville warned in his 1800 book "Democracy in America."
I was disappointed recently when a scientist whom I admire, Rupert Sheldrake, made public his plans to apply his research for military purposes. It's a reality that he can't develop anything without research dollars and he's choosing this route with the military over obscurity IMHO. So I understand the frustration but I guess I'd rather see Sheldrake working than not.

Quote My goal is to increase awareness of what bureaucratic order and education have to do with one another.   Did I achieve it or totally fail?
You did increase awareness and you are a good writer not a failure at all. Glad you provided the information on William James, he is an interesting fellow.Tongue






Edited by Vanuatu - 21 Jul 2019 at 09:13
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I am not sure that the child or infant is an individual.  One first has to make it through childhood.  The best bet for that is two loving parents.  

I am not sure how the American education system reflects the German system, esp. for K-12.  In High School the German system breaks into three tracks, "Gymnasium" (like _give me, not Jim), trade school and blue collar, unskilled trade workers.  Gymnasium is for college bound, trade school is for those destined for skilled trades, then the 'drop-outs' (my term) are for those going into unskilled trades.  It would be nice if the American system were this organized, on the other hand, you have to know what you want fairly early on, to get the grades in Middle School (Jr. High) in order to get on the track for Gymnasium or Trade school, to get on the track of University or apprenticeships.  In America, everybody is told that they should go to college, which means that wherever they end up, they are probably not using what they learned in college.  With one exception, they know how to play the game and put up with bullsh-t, that is, unless they are creating more than their fair share of it.

One thing that Allan Bloom said about Americans, Americans discover Plato and the other 'greats' when they are of a maturity in which they can beginning to be able to understand and appreciate them, first or second year of college, and that can open up a whole new horizon for the student.  Europeans tend to be introduced to Plato in middle school, when they don't and properly can't yet appreciate him because they don't have the maturity.  By the time Europeans get the maturity they look on Plato and others as old hat, and if they are still doing philosophy, they have moved on to the latest fad.  They feel they already know what is in the 'greats' and so why bother looking at it once again, with new eyes.

Of course, Allan Bloom was the student of a highly influential German-Jewish refugee political philosopher who came over during? WWII.  Leo Strauss.  Strauss eventually settled at the University of Chicago, and probably indirectly influenced their Great Works program.
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Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I don't know much about Dewey, read a couple of articles, 20 years ago, but generally he is ignored in philosophy these days, as far as I can tell.  I got the impression that he set up the school like the factory or something like that.  I will have to look him up on wikipedia.

Who are you addressing Vanuatu?

When the Athenians converted their economy into oil production and exportation, and instead imported grain, that was a specialization.  I think specialization is a response to an economic situation, one that depends less on raw materials and more on finished products.

Simone Weil wrote about the French Revolution being a conservative one, but I did not finish her essay, and so do not have a good grasp on it.  She was brilliant, but I don't have a good grasp on French history, which is part of the problem.  I was wondering if you knew anything about that?

I took two (month long) Summer sessions at Concordia College language camp for German, and a year of High School German, so about the equivalent of 3 years, plus a trip to Germany, Austria, Switzerland.  The trip was in 1985, the year I graduated from Public High School.

You are so fortunate to have had those experiences.  I looked up Concordia College language camp for German and it appears to be a wonderful experience and then to follow with actually traveling to Germany and surrounding countries.  Wow, that would be an experience to remember.  I envy so much.  The lecturer about writing non-fiction creative history books, that listened to recently just assumed we could all travel to the places we what to write about.  I will never be able to do that and believe that is a serious handicap in my writing.   

I don't want to get into the French Revolution here but when this topic is exhausted, that is another one I would like to get into.  Say comparing the American Revolution with the French one and discussion why the French Revolution failed.   It has everything to do with culture and that is connected with this discussion, but if we talk about too much, everything gets lost in the verbiage.

I don't understand what you are referring to with Athenians converting their economy to oil?  They created an economic crisis for themselves when they fought the war with Persia, and collected tribute from all the other Greeks to pay for their defense and then got accustom to spending that money to benefit Athens.  Leading to trying to force Greeks to continue paying that protection money after Persia stopped invading, leading to Sparta kicking Athens ass.  Confused  We were the Athens of modern times and Germany was the Sparta.  Now we are the Sparta.  Sparta defeated Athens and took control of it.  We defeated Germany but we adopted its ways and our democracy has gone the way of Athens in about the same number of years-  200 years.  The change occurs, education adjusts and then spreads the change through the state.  We never had the enemies we have today and our education is no longer about being who we were but defending ourselves against the enemies we have made.   Are we saying the same thing differently?  

Dewey and education is a huge subject!  He was influenced by the Herbartian movement.

"Herbartianism (Her-bart-ti-an-ism) is an educational philosophy, movement, and method loosely based on the educational and pedagogical thought of German educator Johann Friedrich Herbart, and influential on American school pedagogy of the late 19th century as the field worked towards a science of education. Herbart advocated for instruction that introduced new ideas in discrete steps. About a quarter-century after his death, Herbart's ideas were expanded in two German schools of thought that were later embodied in the method used at a practice school in Jena, which attracted educationists from the United States. Herbartianism was later replaced by new pedagogies, such as those of John Dewey."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbartianism

I think under Dewey this became the conceptual method of teaching children increasingly complex concepts.  

"To some, conceptual learning can be seen as more of a top-down approach versus the bottom-up model used in more traditional learning. To others who view traditional learning as rote memorization of facts and figures, conceptual learning is seen as a means for getting students to think more critically about the new subjects and situations they encounter."  https://evolve.elsevier.com/education/concept-based-curriculum/conceptual-learning-definition/

You know that debate about critical thinking skills, and the Texas Republican 2012 agenda to prevent education for that.  https://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2012/07/01/texas-gop-platform/#4e7b1a53666d    That goes with the Texas fight for science text books to give as much coverage of the Creationist story as the science books give to evolution as though both were scientifically equal.   

I will repeat my opinion that the objection to Dewey is Christian and not founded in a scientific understanding of human development.  I haven't read anything by or about Dewey that makes me think poorly of him, but as I said, he is hard to read, so maybe I just haven't read enough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 12:59
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Three things looking at Dewey's wikipedia page,
1)  It seems that he presupposes a certain notion of democracy, that later feeds into SDS participatory democracy, which feeds into charismatic leaders leading groups, and technocrats leading on issues.  I think most education is for democracy, in the sense that you don't know what you need.  To focus on "democracy," is to advocate a particular kind of democracy, to the detriment of others, as far as I see it."

This is something that seriously needs to be discussed!  From my point of view, to not focus on democracy means the end of our democracy.  If we do not have a concept of what our USA democracy is, how can we defend it?  Only when that is defended in the classroom is it defended and we have not done that since 1958, leading to cultural crisis and authoritarianism swallowing up our liberty.  Who is defending our democracy a concept and social order, if it is not every citizen prepared to do so?  

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


2)  The description of teachers seems to be from Lake Woebegon, everybody is above average.  I would argue that what you need in teachers is teacher that will "teach" the children to be anti-fragile, to have thick skin, you want enthusiasm in the kids, but you want a little thick skin too.  That is better for the work place.

And what is good for the home and all our human relationships?  You can have the think skin and be competitive you want, but I want to be feminine and soft and I think such qualities might be very important to humanity?  Big smile  I think males and females have different roles to play and the role of females is just as important, and maybe a little more so, for humanity.   Unless you want war of course.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

3)  I am not sure that Dewey got it, Stalin was a mass murderer, and Trotsky was a mass murderer wanna-be.  Maybe it was a good idea to save Trotsky from (extradition?? to) Stalin, but not because he was any better.

What happened to being thick and strong willed?   What does Dewey have to do with Stalin and Trotsky?   Ermm  That hasn't come up in my reading, but good heavens, no one can read everything.

[QUOTE=franciscosan]
Most philosophy in American Universities these days are either British Analytic or Continental European, with American Pragmatism influencing those two.  James and Pierce are the main individuals having an influence.  I don't know about Dewey so much, maybe he is influential in education departments, my guess is that he was influential in his day, but is more of a historical intellectual influence today (intellectual history).

I would say Dewey has zero influence in education for a technological society with unknown values.  I would also say, education for democracy begins with the Greek and Roman classics and unless that is part of education, there is not education for democracy.   

Most important there could not be a good discussion if you were not so well informed!  What is happening here is a million times better than threatening to ban me if I say one more thing about the Military Industrial Complex theory, and totally missing all possible talking points.  I am looking forward to you adding to the little bit I know.  
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Eisenhower was, I believe, warning about the military/Industrial Complex because 1) he was well familiar with it, 2) they couldn't put much past him being a former 5 star general.  3) Kennedy had been elected on a promise that we could do anything and everything.  Eisenhower's position, from what I understand was a more sober, 'we can't do both guns and butter, bombers and hospitals.'  I think that is still very true, but I am not sure who has learned it.

I am not sure I would call the Military Industrial Complex a theory.  For Eisenhower, I would venture to say it was a reality that he was very familiar with.  Now, others may have turned it into a theory, but that is after the fact.  The word, "Theory" has the implications of being speculative or conjectural, which at least for Eisenhower, it was not. 

I don't particularly have anything against John Dewey, I just don't have anything for him.  My academic background is in philosophy, and I used to pick up philosophy books at used bookstores, and library sales, including a fair amount by Dewey.  Eventually I decided I wasn't ever going to read it, and got rid of it.  He seems to be someone who was influential at the time, but has not withstood the test of time.  But, on the other hand, I don't know or understand what education departments do.  


Edited by franciscosan - 15 Jul 2019 at 12:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 03:08
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

I think Brickner's idea that Germany suffered from more than mild insanity during the years of the Nazi Party is logical. That is, it was the channeling of group hysteria, fear and desperation to control "others" describes at least 3 generations of Germans, WW1 adults, their children and grandchildren.  

Would you elaborate on the details of changes made to schools based on Germany's model?
I don't have the book is not available on scribd but I looked at some abstracts online. Thanks

Thank you greatly for your comment and questions!  

Please know the success of the Nazi party was its campaigning Technics.  Number one, it sent people into rural areas to ask people what angered them the most, and then sent in speakers who lectured about how they would correct the problems that angered the most.   They did this year round, year after year, not just in the limited campaign time that was normal.   We are doing this.  We have political activity that is like the Nazi party on steroids.  Our technology for this is greatly improved with radio, television, the web..  We are surveyed and then feed what we want to hear, written by professional speech makers.   This is obviously emotionally driven and when we do not have education for critical thinking and don't even know what that is Shocked we aren't thinking with our heads, but our feelings.  That makes us easy to manipulate.  It results in reactionary politics.  

I am rushing this explanation so it will be a little careless, but until I can quit working it will be like this.  We replaced education for independent thinking with "group think".  We destroyed our national heroes as the Prussians destroyed Germany's national heroes.  This is eliminating strong independent thinkers from society, except for the elite who can send their children to the expensive schools to be trained in leadership.   The masses are the subjects to be led.   Do you see the connections?  We are recreating the ills of monarchy, and think this is being superior and essential to our position as a world leader and "our defense".   What separates us from the past is our wealth, not our mentality.  Only the titles of royalty are changed.  Our empires are international and we are blind to them, except if we become personally aware of them.   Their existence and the military cost of defending them is not mass media news.   

I am hoping people of history can relate to today's empires and the empires of the past and what education has to do with this.  Education for technology has always been for slaves.  Liberal education is for the elite, the free people who sit in the seats of power.  We depend on them, because we know they know more than we do and they hold more power than we do.    Don't forget, their tax cuts will benefit us, as we support the military force that defends their empires with our tax dollars.  LOL  Is time cyclical or linear?   

It is not just a change in education but vitally important, is to understand, the change in bureaucratic organization.  We no longer need to prepare everyone for civic and industrial leadership and democratic values, because of improvements in bureaucratic technology that shifts power to the bureaucracy and crushes individual power and liberty.  This is not all bad.  It is our failure to understand our changed reality that is bad.  


  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 02:40
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Eisenhower was, I believe, warning about the military/Industrial Complex because 1) he was well familiar with it, 2) they couldn't put much past him being a former 5 star general.  3) Kennedy had been elected on a promise that we could do anything and everything.  Eisenhower's position, from what I understand was a more sober, 'we can't do both guns and butter, bombers and hospitals.'  I think that is still very true, but I am not sure who has learned it.

I am not sure I would call the Military Industrial Complex a theory.  For Eisenhower, I would venture to say it was a reality that he was very familiar with.  Now, others may have turned it into a theory, but that is after the fact.  The word, "Theory" has the implications of being speculative or conjectural, which at least for Eisenhower, it was not. 

I don't particularly have anything against John Dewey, I just don't have anything for him.  My academic background is in philosophy, and I used to pick up philosophy books at used bookstores, and library sales, including a fair amount by Dewey.  Eventually I decided I wasn't ever going to read it, and got rid of it.  He seems to be someone who was influential at the time, but has not withstood the test of time.  But, on the other hand, I don't know or understand what education departments do.  

The Military Industrial Complex existed before Eisenhower because that is what we have when go to war.  All national resources get focused on winning wars and when war continues, military men get the seats of power, in Athens, Rome, Germany, the US.  There is no need to make a big stink over this except when the country can not demobilize, the temporary conditions of war are permanent.  I write about this simply because I think awareness of our changed reality is important to having some power of control.  Living in denial or complete unawareness is living without the control we think citizens of a democracy ought to have.  

A book written at the time of the second world war questions if our democracy will never revert back to a peace time economy, not because there is this thing we call the Military Industrial Complex ruled by a set of men.  The concern was, all the industries that got government contracts during the war would retain them after the war, and that is what happened.  Eisenhower, for legitimate national defense reasons, assured all those contractors would keep their contracts and the government would support more and more national defense contractors.  

The closest we come to being ruled by intentionally organized Military Industrial Leaders, is the neoconservatives who began organizing themselves into a political force in the 1960's.  Stern Smile  The changes Eisenhower made gave such people the bureaucratic structure required for the political military power people such as the neocons wanted.  This is what Eisenhower warned us of only because we ignore his warning and don't understand bureaucratic structure or government contracts or anything else we need to know about our changed reality these neocons have all the control we have none.  We do not understand enough to have the political power we think we have.   

By the way, this organization includes government contracted research and connections with media that did not exist before Eisenhower.   Reagan, a neocon, replaced government research of poverty with reach of welfare fraud, and then scapegoated the poor for our economic problems as surely as the Germans scapegoated the Jews.  The research was made big, big news for political reasons, shifting power and wealth dramatically.  Reagan slashed all domestic budgets and poured money into military spending, and granted arms to our favored mid east countries.  We did not go to war, but we did station our navy in the Persian gulf.  This followed on the heels of OPEC embargoing oil to the US because of the oil countries objecting to our protection of Israel.  The relationship between neocons and the control of the Military Industrial Complex, is something of which we should all be aware.  My problem with all of this is our lack of awareness.  These folks have greater control of media than they did during the Vietnam war.  In fact, it was anti war protest that motivated them to organize and take control.

I would like to know how many people are aware of the changes in public education and the increasing role the federal government has played in controlling that education?  Again, Eisenhower, set the stage for what was to follow.  He asked congress for the 1958 National Defense Education Act, replacing the liberal education we had with education for the technology for military and industrial purpose.  It is not an insult to say this is what the Prussians did to German education.  It is just a fact.  We need to think in terms of how things are organized and then how the changed organization changes everything else.
The purpose of education was radically changed in 1958.  The Act had a 4 year limit and we blew past that 4 year limit long ago.  When I think of Bush Jr. smiling face and the "No Child Left Behind Act" I want to scream, wake up folks!   That act makes it mandatory for schools to report students names and addresses to the military recruiters.  




  



Edited by Athena - 18 Jul 2019 at 02:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 03:12
Quote I don't particularly have anything against John Dewey, I just don't have anything for him.  My academic background is in philosophy, and I used to pick up philosophy books at used bookstores, and library sales, including a fair amount by Dewey.  Eventually I decided I wasn't ever going to read it, and got rid of it.  He seems to be someone who was influential at the time, but has not withstood the test of time.  But, on the other hand, I don't know or understand what education departments do.
franciscosan 

I bought books by John Dewey and didn't read him because he is very hard to read, but he says amazing things about thinking and having personal power or not.   Books written about what he said are much easier to read.  Maybe a thread could center just on him and how we think and react?  Also this man is amazing....  
Quote ThinkingFast and Slow is a best-selling book published in 2011 by Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences laureate Daniel Kahneman.

We can greatly improve our personal power by understanding how things are organized and also by understanding how our brains work.  John Dewey and Daniel Kahneman have valuable things to say about how we think and behave.   These are not the only geniuses on the subject.

Quote

What is Game Theory? - David K. Levine


www.dklevine.com/general/whatis.htm
What economists call game theory psychologists call the theory of social situations, which is an accurate description of what game theory is about. Although ...

We love to think of science as our friend, but science is also being used to manipulate us into buying things, or voting a certain way, or approve of military actions such as defending Israel without paying attention to the cause of their conflict with Palestinians and other things such as why we oppose Iran.  We are bulls with a ring in our nose.  Especially with the science of human thinking and behavior, we are easily controlled.  Except the child in the classroom who acts out with an animal instinct to not be controlled.  Dewey mentions this is the result of not having personal power.   However, most of us are socially sheep going along with the herd.   Or we are silently disenfranchised and apathetic.  Spending all day with a computer game is a good way to avoid reality.  Big smile
 


Edited by Athena - 18 Jul 2019 at 03:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 14:26
Regan did spend a lot on defense but Bill Clinton initiated and overwhelmingly had bi-partisan support for welfare reform.

Everyone here was alive during the Lebanon bombings and your version is welcome but I'm very clear about why Iran and US are at odds. You can dig up any old corpse to explain a conflict but I don't hear any ideas for resolution.

Our educational system is Leftist, beyond Liberal! 
Beefy and confused black young men are running track & wrestling in high school sports against girls and taking athletic scholarships!

Unless whitey is the new Jew this isn't a Nazi takeover, unless ANTIFA starts singing kumbaya, Violence is the new progressive watchword. 

Where did ANTIFA come from? 
The neocon schools?
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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