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Education and Democracy

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2019 at 14:19
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

So primitive societies have written constitutions, and written laws with rule by law and juries rather than kings or chiefs?  I do not think so.

Athena, My academic background is in philosophy and Classics.  So, I am very fond of Classical literature and culture.  But, in the Roman Empire, philosophy was really for the elite.  Some people however, got moral education not from Greek philosophy, but from Jewish synagogues.  These people were pagans, but were called "God fearers."  These "God fearers" provided some of the early gentile Christians to which Paul appealed.  One of the early characteristics that first appealed to early Christians, and have ever since, is a kind of moral education.  By "moral education" I mean education into the mores of society, the rules and conventions of society.  Again, philosophy is great, but I believe that for a popular education for the everyday individual, religion has traditionally given us a moral grounding.  People, particularly the new atheists, think we can do without.  And on an individual basis, we can, although I think people are borrowing a lot of inertia from the previous paradigm, so to speak.

I find it interesting that Classicists tend to ignore ancient Judaism, and other cultures.  Some scholars, however, are reaching out, and showing how Greece (and Rome) was not so separate from the other parts of the ancient world.  Don't get me wrong, I understand why such a division is made.  To a certain extent it is practical, but also Hellenophiles like to show how unique the Greeks were, which they were, but not completely.  For example, Walter Burkert looked at the influences between Greece and Babylon, Sardis and Memphis.  But, yes Judeo-Christian is very different from Greco-Roman, although they were in a way in the same universe.

I think that Christianity is in a way foundational for American democracy.  Problem is, if you dig up the foundations of building, it will collapse, so let's leave the foundation alone and go on to other things, or rather back to the issue of democracy and education.  
Of course, we might not have one level of foundation, I would say Western Civ is founded on the twin pillars of Greco-Roman, and Judeo-Christian culture as well.  Not that I am adverse to occasionally borrowing from elsewhere.



I believe Christianity is Hellenized Judaism.  Much of the worst Christian fighting, Christian against Christian was the result of different Greek and Roman concepts and the Romans not having a word that could translate to one god having three aspects, father, son and holy ghost.  So Christians who wanted to hold to there being only one god were fighting with those who argued Jesus was the son of God not God.  

For absolute sure, the Egyptian religious concepts played a very important role in the development of Christianity, with one major difference.   Egyptians had a trinity of the soul and Christians have a trinity of God.  That is the difference of God being internal or external which is along the lines of arguing if God, father, son and holy ghost are three gods or one.  

With the trinity of the soul, one part of this trinity dies with the body.  The second part is judged and goes on to the good life or not, depending on the weight of the heart.  The third part always returns to the source.  I find this quit acceptable and I like it better than a trinity of God that is all external and separate from our human being.  I do not comprehend the Christian notion of the soul, if it is not the Egyptian trinity of our spiritual being.  

Isis was the bread and water long before Jesus became the bread and wine and it was Isis to judged us when we died.  The water become wine with Jesus because it is the color of blood, and the alcohol is associated with spirits, and Christians with a cannibalistic notion ate of the body of Christ and drank of his blood. Terrifying Romans who didn't understand the symbology.   And later to become a point of contention when Protestants and Catholics got into a power struggle and it was argued by Protestants that priest couldn't make the waver and wine magically filled with the qualities of the supernatural.  

And this discussion must include Mithraism a favorite Persian religion of Roman soldiers with a mythology almost identical to the Christian mythology.  https://www.britannica.com/topic/Mithraism
and for sure   Zoroastrianism which followed Mithraism had a strong influence on Hebrews and Christianity, especially the division of good and evil that was not so pronounced in Hebrew faith as it is in Christianity, with the demonology of the East influencing Christians more strongly.  

This is just too much fun to not share and it is my understanding small quotes can be used.  I am sorry if I misunderstand the legality and rules of this. I am bringing this up because nothing is believable unless the concepts are familar and eating the body of Christ and drinking his blood for spiritual reasons comes before Jesus and the "word of God".  This also goes with crucifixion of the sun in heaven because it is about astrology.  It is Mithra ritual.    

Quote The divine meal is more frequently portrayed than any other scene except the bull slaying. Besides bull meat, other animals were used, or bread and fish were used as substitutes for meat, and wine for blood. This was their Eucharist! They believed that by eating the bull's flesh and drinking its blood they would be "born again" just as life itself had once been created from the bull's blood. It was believed that the partaking of the Eucharistic sacrament ensured Eternal Life, the immediate passing after death, to the bosom of Mithra, there to tarry in bliss until the judgment.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2019 at 03:01
Thanks Athena, I like the way that you laid out the progression of symbolism overtime and civilizations. 
For myself finding more connections cast any differences into the realm of cultural adaptation.

The ritual of the bull is fascinating, you also find it in the Celtic legends with the attributes of fertility, the Sun and wealth. Rituals associated with Celts/Druids involved the king consuming the power of the animal.
In a large cast pot a butchered bull is cooked. Then the king immerses himself,eats all the meat and drinks all the broth.
The Jews assign the attribute of Harmony to "Kether" bc the constellation Taurus was in the sun during the Exodus. This put distance between the Jews and the Egyptian worship of the golden calf. "Kether" has male and female attributes, it means "Crown" suggesting the highest authority of man.

(*the bull in the Sephiroth,[Kabballah Tree] looks a bit like the fallopian tubes and ovaries, many cultures name the cow as the first animal created and she brought forth the Milky Way. 
*correction, "Aleph" is the Bull



Edited by Vanuatu - 27 Jul 2019 at 15:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2019 at 15:34
Oh really the bull market is Celtic?  Big smile  Would you please move your bull information to a thread for bulls?  I think there is a lot to be said about bulls in history and mythology and it might be more comprehensive if we put it all together in one thread.  I have a problem with getting pictures into my post but pictures to go with the history and cultures would make it really nice.  

Oh, oh you know of Jung and the notion that our symbolism is universal like on a consciousness realm beyond our mundane awareness?  Joseph Campbell picked up where Jung left off and became the guru of mythology.  I like his notion that God speaks to everyone but each culture comes the awareness through its own culture so the general meaning is there, but the exact story may be told a little differently.   I have read Christianity was accepted by many cultures because the mythology of Christianity is not so different from other mythologies.  

Back to the subject of education, I don't think it would be appreciated if schools were to teach the similarities of mythologies and why Christianity was acceptable to others.  I have a friend who is very upset that some schools introduce students to Qu'ran but Before Mohammed had someone write the holy book, his people were living with Jews and Christians and their mythologies are fundamental to  Islam.  For awhile Hebrews improved on their stories and at least five of them appear to be Sumerian stories of many gods and adjusted to fit the notion of one God which appears to have begun in Egypt.  But the Hellenized Jews put their twist on the story, then the Arabs put their twist on the stories.  And the Baha'i adopted all religions including Christianity.   However, it would be a very unusual community that had a high school class for learning of this.   However, I think many students would be fascinated and that it could benefit world peace.  

That is what a conservative would call an extreme leftist point of view and it is a basic conflict between Christians and non Christians or liberal Christians.  I am not sure how to address this conflict in such a way all would be agreeable to an expanded knowledge of such matters.   


Edited by Vanuatu - 29 Jul 2019 at 02:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2019 at 16:04
You are to blame for all the bull Wink
You can't start talking Mithras without bringing up the Bull,lol  if you start talking symbols I'm going to wander.
Understanding Iconic symbolism only enhances education. Think of the benefit to learning history, languages and of course classic literature. I will remove it if you insist but I don't see how it detracts from your subject.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2019 at 04:30
Start another thread on the bull, if you haven't already and I'll contribute to it.  The "Apollonian" Apollo really comes in with Pindar, the Theban poet.  Before that Apollo was a more martial god, see Iliad for example, or even a chthonic god, Apollo Oulios.  Also, Homer is not agrarian, but Hesiod, with the 'Works and Days' is.  Hesiod was traditionally thought superior to Homer, as peace was to war.  "Homer" is the oldest of Greek literature, although since he comes out of an oral tradition, that might make it difficult to date him.  Hesiod is next oldest, and Pindar is the next oldest after Hesiod, as far as complete works we have.  That is not to say we don't have fragments older than Pindar, basically quotes, some substantial, that are preserved in other works.

Themistocles is an amazing Athenian leader, basically he was responsible for the shift in Athens, away from an aristocratic (oligarchic) calvary of elites, and an army of citizen hoplites to a fleet where the individual citizens became more important as those who crewed the triremes.  He was instrumental in creating the Athenian major portion of the fleet that defeated the Persians at Salamis.  He later got caught up in scandals (real or perceived), and eventually went over to Persia becoming a local ruler, they appreciated a good man, unlike Athens. 
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Quote Ok well then here you must explain how a government bureaucracy and the manner of humans since recorded history differ in grooming their young for war or work.

I think I missed this statement or that my reply didn't get much attention and it is vitally important.  We are training people to do particular work, rather than to be civic and industrial leaders.  That means only the privileged who are prepared by their families and private schools or the best colleges like Yale and Harvard are prepared to run our world for us.  The rest of us are prepared to follow orders and depend on the leaders who make the real decisions.  Not only we are prepared as slaves to do the work, but merit hiring is authoritarian and only those who come up through the system can rise.   Useless you are a politician.  Shocked  Our votes are almost 100% based on if we like a candidate.  We do not have a good merit system for determining who will represent us in public office.    

That leads to reactionary politics that appeal to our emotions, not our ability to reason.   This is a serious political problem and a human experience problem.  I have not developed these thoughts enough to properly express them, but Tocqueville had much to say of this in his 1830 book "Democracy in America".  

I have really mixed feelings about this.  Part of me would love to live in the days of pharaohs and to love my pharaoh as a god.  To be perfectly content with my lot in life and feel free of all responsibility because it is the pharaohs job to care for us, and we just do what it is our lot in life to do.  Tocqueville speaks of this as living under despotism.   But our Declaration of Independence could be called a Declaration of Responsibility.  For most of history our fate was determined by our birth, not by our individual effort.  But to be born in the US to be born responsible and to participate in meeting community needs, economic and political matters.   We are to educate ourselves, and that did not mean huge college loans and a formal education.  It meant as citizens we read pamphlets, newspapers, and books and educated ourselves, and employers accepted this.  We could return to our golden age if we demanded the democratic model for industry, but before that can happen, we need to understand we have a problem and there is a solution.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 08:06
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

You are to blame for all the bull Wink
You can't start talking Mithras without bringing up the Bull,lol  if you start talking symbols I'm going to wander.
Understanding Iconic symbolism only enhances education. Think of the benefit to learning history, languages and of course classic literature. I will remove it if you insist but I don't see how it detracts from your subject.

LOL  Now you went and warped my brain.  What a far out concept to communicate and educate  as we did in the past with nature and symbolism instead of "facts".  

You also mentioned the outrageous possibility of experiencing ourselves as tied to nature verses being objective observers.   To know the tides and the movements of in the heavens and the changing of the seasons as we know our own breath and feeling ourselves a part of this rhythm of nature, instead of the most obvious reality that are separate from God and nature and everything else.  Are you a pagan?  Shocked   LOL

How about this, there is so much to say about totomism and our connection to the earth and the heavens, symbolism verses "the word" that all these deserve their own threads.  Education for democracy is very specific and very word and reason and objective based.  

Whoo, you are really making me think of what is important here.  The first lesson in democracy coming from Athens was Athena's new temple.  Her temple was filled with murals of the gods, teaching a new relationship between the gods and ourselves.  The force of our more modern lessons on democracy totally ignore Athens' gods and focus on our history of western conflict and abuses of power.   I must say, I never gave this difference much thought before.  Maybe I should ponder what you said more carefully?  

Where is the emoticon with the brains running of the ear because of too much thinking and melting one's brain?  Wacko



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 08:12
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Start another thread on the bull, if you haven't already and I'll contribute to it.  The "Apollonian" Apollo really comes in with Pindar, the Theban poet.  Before that Apollo was a more martial god, see Iliad for example, or even a chthonic god, Apollo Oulios.  Also, Homer is not agrarian, but Hesiod, with the 'Works and Days' is.  Hesiod was traditionally thought superior to Homer, as peace was to war.  "Homer" is the oldest of Greek literature, although since he comes out of an oral tradition, that might make it difficult to date him.  Hesiod is next oldest, and Pindar is the next oldest after Hesiod, as far as complete works we have.  That is not to say we don't have fragments older than Pindar, basically quotes, some substantial, that are preserved in other works.

Themistocles is an amazing Athenian leader, basically he was responsible for the shift in Athens, away from an aristocratic (oligarchic) calvary of elites, and an army of citizen hoplites to a fleet where the individual citizens became more important as those who crewed the triremes.  He was instrumental in creating the Athenian major portion of the fleet that defeated the Persians at Salamis.  He later got caught up in scandals (real or perceived), and eventually went over to Persia becoming a local ruler, they appreciated a good man, unlike Athens. 

That is it, this post has to begin a new thread!  Star  I will copy and paste it now.  I am so excited and thrilled.  Clap
Athens shift from aristocracy to democracy


Edited by Athena - 29 Jul 2019 at 08:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2019 at 01:40
I have been reading a Dewey book about education and I was right about him being hated because he would have children think for themselves.  Conservatives stand strongly against this.  It was the 2012 Texas Republican agenda to keep such thinking out of their schools.  The opposed education in the higher order thinking skills  HOTS.  

Dewey opposed rote learning and he was strongly attacked for that, but people who thought authority and discipline are essential.  Dewey would have children learn from experience with minimal guidance fro the teacher.  I am more conservative than that.  There needs to be a balance between giving children direction and allowing them to choose their own thing.  It is my experience that children don't enjoy anything like a walk in the woods if they are not prepared to enjoy that.  They can be totally controlled by commercials that designed to control the desire to have something.  So if are not actively guiding them to enjoy things like a walk in the woods and other things of value, they will be compulsive consumers, and dependent on consumption for immediate and temporary relief from the pain of life.  

Dewey makes a point of explaining our compulsive desire for something without thought is problematic.  He would have children think through everything, training their minds to do this, instead of leaving them to be compulsive.  

For awhile our education dropped training for logic and as I said, Texas would avoid it!  Their grades were dependent on memorization.  We switched from the Conceptual Method, that is thinking things through to the Behaviorist Method that is also used for training dogs.  Then in the 1970's we announced a national youth crisis.  It appears there is a return to education for logic but I think it is weak.   

On the good side is men like Daniel Kahneman who wrote ThinkingFast and Slow.  His book explains how our brains work and why sometimes we make very bad decisions, no matter how smart we are.
We can use our new knowledge of humans and how our brains work to have better education.  
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2019 at 14:04
I don't know what "children thinking for themselves" means.  Children are minors in the American system, and therefore not completely responsible for their actions, we recognize that they need parents or some other form of guardian.  Now they should be able to spread their wings and attempt to fly, but at the same time if they fall down, they will (and expect to) be picked up.  It seems to me that the impetus is to legally assume people are less responsible, that there brains 'aren't developed' and that the nanny state has to take care of everyone.  Children need not only to be taught that they have rights, but that their rights are (each) others responsibility.  Rights cannot exist in a world without responsibility.

I cannot comment on Texas' philosophy of education, and I would humbly suggest that if you want to discuss Texas' philosophy of education, that you explain it first (in some depth), and then critique it.  Otherwise, we won't know what you are talking about.  I know that Texas is influential for textbooks (Tex is influential for texts), but that is about all.

If you have a quote(s) of Dewey illustrating how he thinks children can and will think for themselves, I encourage you to present them.  Rote memorization is not as needed these days where you can readily look things up, or use a calculator.  But, still I would recommend to anyone and everyone that they remember a few poems or songs.  I do wish I learned grammar better, grammar helps with logically analyzing statements.  But, anywho, if you have quote or quotes we can mill over for Dewey, we can probably understand him better.  A secondary source might work instead, but wouldn't be as good since it wouldn't be his own words. 


Edited by franciscosan - 01 Aug 2019 at 14:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2019 at 03:01
I will get back to you with a Dewey quote.

The "impetus" in Dewey's thinking is the child's motives versus adult direction that kills the child's natural instinct to learn.  I am rushing and not coming up with the right words. There are two very popular teaching systems and I can't think of their names, Montessori and Summer Hill?  These are more child self directed education systems.  

Conservatives teach what should be known.  It is rote and authority directed.  Progressives encourage self direction.  Fill in the ideas, I have to run.  I love you all and wish I could stay here all day.   

Quote

Texas GOP rejects 'critical thinking' skills. Really. - The Washington Post


https://www.washingtonpost.com/.../texas-gop...critical-thinking.../2012/.../gJQAHNp...
Jul 9, 2012 - It sees “critical thinking” as something subversive. Scary stuff. Here's the rest of the education section of the Texas GOP's 2012 platform: ... Basic Standards – We favor improving the quality of education for all students, including those with special needs.
Texas also took the creationist battle to the supreme court, because they wanted creationism in science books and some teachers argued creationism is not science.  Texas lost, creationism is not science.  


Edited by Athena - 02 Aug 2019 at 03:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2019 at 09:48
Here is a Dewey quote that I think is very important.

Quote The crucial education problem is that of procuring the postponement of immediate action upon desire until observation and judgment have intervened.  Unless I am mistaken, this point is definitely relevant to the conduct of progressive schools.  Overemphasis upon activity as an end, instead of upon intelligent activity, leads to identification of freedom with immediate execution of impulses and desires.  This identification is justified by a confusion of impulse with purpose; although, as has just been said, there is no purpose unless overt action is postponed until there is foresight of the consequences of carrying the impulse into execution- a foresight that is impossible without observation, information, and judgment.

I hope that is enough to convey the point.  Athenians were very proud of their debating before an action decision was made.  Spartans saw that as a weakness.  I believe it is Pericles funeral speech that addresses this difference in opinion?  A more recent reference would be President Bush bragging that he doesn't think too much before making a decision, and Obama who was criticized for thinking too much, and then back to Trump who is proud to make decisions without consulting with others.   Which style of leadership a person prefers may depend on what is believed to be true about humans and our relationship with a God.   Do we come to good judgement through a process of scientific thinking, or like the kings of old, do our leaders have a special relationship with a god who gives them special powers?   Or like Spartans, is our animal instinct best and is spending too much time on observation and debating a waste of time and weakness?   

Education is like a genie in a bottle, the defined purpose is the wish and the students are the genie.  A conservative education tends to be authoritarian with the expectation of obedience.  At least that is how I understand a Catholic or Christian education.  I prefer the behavior of students at Catholic schools and think public schools are making a big mistake by not having a better standard of behavior, however, I think a democracy demands people who can think things through and work with each other to get things done.   That is the goal Dewey is shooting for, preparing the students to be independent thinkers and tomorrows leaders, but education for technology is not exactly doing that.  Education for technology is about depending on the experts.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 11:16
There is a level were people want to debate something, whereas what they really should do is make a decision (and stick with it).  Some people argue in bad faith, pretending like they are offering a solution, whereas what they really want to do is bog down the process so that no decision can be made.  Of course, here (worldhistoria) is a site for discussion and dialogue.  But, I think in the political arena, those in the debate often have preconceived answers.  Yes, people usually should judge matters, but a lot of time, propaganda acts as a "convenient" shortcut to come up with the answer, often without dealing with the problem.  But, again, there is a time for everything, a time for talk, but again a time for opening up a can of whoop-ass.   

Propaganda means propagation of the faith, originally a Catholic notion, but transferred in modern terms into Soviet, National Socialist or fascist, and, yes, American systems of propaganda.  We don't like to admit it to ourselves, but just as Saddam Hussein's Baathist party had elections with Saddam's one party system getting all of the vote, a two party system is just a variant on the one party system, trading off between twiddle dee and twiddle dum.  Of course, democrats want to put an end to that, by dismantling the electoral college system, at least that is what the current governor of Colorado wants to do.  One might wonder why a governor of Colorado wants to enact benefits for the major metropolitan areas of the United States like NY or LA.  Right now we are one step removed from a single party state, and the democrats seem to want to change that.  Electoral college protects the (rural and small state) minority. 


Edited by franciscosan - 05 Aug 2019 at 11:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 12:50
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

There is a level were people want to debate something, whereas what they really should do is make a decision (and stick with it).  Some people argue in bad faith, pretending like they are offering a solution, whereas what they really want to do is bog down the process so that no decision can be made.  Of course, here (worldhistoria) is a site for discussion and dialogue.  But, I think in the political arena, those in the debate often have preconceived answers.  Yes, people usually should judge matters, but a lot of time, propaganda acts as a "convenient" shortcut to come up with the answer, often without dealing with the problem.  But, again, there is a time for everything, a time for talk, but again a time for opening up a can of whoop-ass.   

Propaganda means propagation of the faith, originally a Catholic notion, but transferred in modern terms into Soviet, National Socialist or fascist, and, yes, American systems of propaganda.  We don't like to admit it to ourselves, but just as Saddam Hussein's Baathist party had elections with Saddam's one party system getting all of the vote, a two party system is just a variant on the one party system, trading off between twiddle dee and twiddle dum.  Of course, democrats want to put an end to that, by dismantling the electoral college system, at least that is what the current governor of Colorado wants to do.  One might wonder why a governor of Colorado wants to enact benefits for the major metropolitan areas of the United States like NY or LA.  Right now we are one step removed from a single party state, and the democrats seem to want to change that.  Electoral college protects the (rural and small state) minority. 

Unhappy  I just read a post you wrote that had me so delighted I could hardly control my thoughts, and then I was distracted before I could reply.  Now instead of the post I wanted to find, I see this post and wonder what the heck it is doing in this thread?  What does it have to do with education?  Were you dismissing what I said as inappropriate for discussion?  Are you saying what I say is propaganda and not a good response to your ideas and questions.  Am I being too narcissistic?  To eager to say what I think and not being a good listener?  

Australia has what I think is the best voting system.  In Australia voters rank their choices candidates and if their first choice of a candidate doesn't win the vote goes to the second choice or third choice.  I love the idea because it means we could risk voting for a third party with little chance of winning, and not completely loose our vote.  I bet that would mess with our two party system that is very corrupted and seriously needs messing up.     

Now where is the great post you wrote that I am having trouble finding? Unhappy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 16:39
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

Quote Ok well then here you must explain how a government bureaucracy and the manner of humans since recorded history differ in grooming their young for war or work.

Quote I think I missed this statement or that my reply didn't get much attention and it is vitally important.  We are training people to do particular work, rather than to be civic and industrial leaders.
Everyone can't be a leader, not everyone wants to be a leader. The Collectivism of Stalinist Russia insured the starvation of millions by selecting leaders based on the success of their more successful neighbors. This separated the exact people who were feeding two countries in Eastern Europe from the slackers who were unsuccessful for -what ever reason. You can give away someone's hard work but without the know-how and will the result is failure, everyone suffers. Give a slacker his own company to run and the results are predictable.
Quote
That means only the privileged who are prepared by their families and private schools or the best colleges like Yale and Harvard are prepared to run our world for us. 
Do you want bartenders writing legislation? -oh right-you do!
Quote
The rest of us are prepared to follow orders and depend on the leaders who make the real decisions.  Not only we are prepared as slaves to do the work, but merit hiring is authoritarian and only those who come up through the system can rise.
I think you mean working for a wage which is not slavery. Complain about the pay, understandable but it's not slavery..
What about the Anointed One? He was born in a manger, in Hawaii and became POTUS. 
Merit hiring is Authoritarian?
You want an affirmative action airline pilot?

Quote Useless you are a politician.  Shocked  Our votes are almost 100% based on if we like a candidate.  We do not have a good merit system for determining who will represent us in public office.
Voters vote, politicians use spikes in public opinion to gain trust. If you like them it's their persona but if it's a reliable persona that's almost as good as actual convictions.

Quote That leads to reactionary politics that appeal to our emotions, not our ability to reason.
Agree. Teen boys should not be competing with teen girls for wrestling scholarships or track  scholarships. Perpetuating the delusion of 'fairness' is bizarre on the part of PC education.
Quote    This is a serious political problem and a human experience problem.  I have not developed these thoughts enough to properly express them, but Tocqueville had much to say of this in his 1830 book "Democracy in America". 
 
de Tocqueville never met Stalin, Hitler or Mao, reactionary politics on mega steroids.

Quote
I have really mixed feelings about this.  Part of me would love to live in the days of pharaohs and to love my pharaoh as a god.  To be perfectly content with my lot in life and feel free of all responsibility because it is the pharaohs job to care for us, and we just do what it is our lot in life to do.  Tocqueville speaks of this as living under despotism.   But our Declaration of Independence could be called a Declaration of Responsibility.  For most of history our fate was determined by our birth, not by our individual effort.
Yes the life lottery it's not fair, it just is. 

[quote]But to be born in the US to be born responsible and to participate in meeting community needs, economic and political matters.   We are to educate ourselves, and that did not mean huge college loans and a formal education.  It meant as citizens we read pamphlets, newspapers, and books and educated ourselves, and employers accepted this.  We could return to our golden age if we demanded the democratic model for industry, but before that can happen, we need to understand we have a problem and there is a solution.  
The democratic model for industry does not exist we use the Capitalist model.
I think it is getting much harder to fool the masses, politician's rhetoric is shameless pandering for votes, "end the electoral college"- just say anything!


Edited by Vanuatu - 06 Aug 2019 at 06:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 01:26
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

Quote Ok well then here you must explain how a government bureaucracy and the manner of humans since recorded history differ in grooming their young for war or work.

I don't think I said that, but it is a something I really want to comment on.  Basically grooming people for war begins with the method of child rearing.   Aggressive cultures raise children with a degree of cruelty.   This begins by ignoring the cries of a baby to slapping the bady with the idea this will make the baby strong/aggressive.  It can also mean beating the devil out of children.  Environment plays a role in this choice.  Genghis Khan thought Christians had a ridiculous belief to believe a god in the sky cared for them.  That idea of god came from the fertile crescent where nature where life was pretty easy.  

There is also raising a child to be gentle and cooperative.  This is done with plenty of nurturing and may include discouraging aggressive behaviors.  

Quote Everyone can't be a leader, not everyone wants to be a leader. The Collectivism of Stalinist Russia insured the starvation of millions by selecting leaders based on the success of their more successful neighbors. This separated the exact people who were feeding two countries in Eastern Europe from the slackers who were unsuccessful for -what ever reason. You can give away someone's hard work but without the know-how and will the result is failure, everyone suffers. Give a slacker his own company to run and the results are predictable.

Everyone better be trained to be good leaders because that is training for citizenship in a democracy.  Comparing this to what happened under Stalinist in a country that never had training for leadership and independent thinking is like comparing and apple with a fish, isn't it? 

Quote Do you want bartenders writing legislation? -oh right-you do!
Quote

Oh my goodness what are you saying? Broken Heart Of course I want a bartender to write legislation.  What do you think democracy, self-government and consensus mean?   Anyone of us can have unusual insight, and make a very important contribution to humanity and it is our duty to speak when we think we have better reasoning.  

Quote nitiative. In political terminology, the initiative is a process that enables citizens to bypass their state legislature by placing proposed statutes and, in some states, constitutional amendments on the ballot.Sep 20, 2012
Quote  I think you mean working for a wage which is not slavery. Complain about the pay, understandable but it's not slavery..
What about the Anointed One? He was born in a manger, in Hawaii and became POTUS. 

I am not sure workers have always felt free.  I thank God we now have 40 hour weeks and do not work 14 days 6 to 7 days a week, for a wage that leaves our families in extreme poverty.  

I am afraid religion is getting pulled into another secular discussion.  Please do not this.  It will get very ugly.  I am blown away that this would happen in a history forum.  Shall we talk about Calvinism and what it has to do economic improvement and what economic improvement has to do with our families being secure and healthy and compare this to our reality before there was science and economic improvement?  What about the union workers who got their heads bashed in as they fought for better wages and working conditions.  What about seeing reality through history?  

[quote]Merit hiring is Authoritarian?
You want an affirmative action airline pilot? 

Are you questioning if merit hiring is authoritarian?  You think something is wrong with affirmative action?  Confused  Your two statements together seem to fight each other.  

[quote]Voters vote, politicians use spikes in public opinion to gain trust. If you like them it's their persona but if it's a reliable persona that's almost as good as actual convictions.
  

Ermm What about ideas?   Shouldn't politics be discussion of ideas rather than popularity contest?  How about this spike "Don't ask what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" Jack Kennedy.  By that way was a Catholic and a darn good president in my opinion.  

[quote]de Tocqueville never met Stalin, Hitler or Mao, reactionary politics on mega steroids.
  And your point is?  

[quote]Yes the life lottery it's not fair, it just is.
  I think democracy is about liberty and justice and being empowered do something about liberty and justice.  I believe strongly that our human potential, the very comfortable lives we have now, is the result of understanding democracy and our responsibility as citizens.  This is something that makes different from Hindu India where for centuries people thought their fate was preordained, as did the people in Christian Europe.  I don't know we say India has a cast system and in the west we have social classes?  Really, are they different?  What is different is believing no matter what we are born into we can raise and a democracy can enable everyone to give their best contribution to the whole.   

Sorry, out of time.  I hope I remember to return and finish responding to your very stimulating comments.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 06:15
So, there is a degree of sarcasm here its related to earlier comments in your thread. My point, and I apologize for being unclear, is that whether to -defend a great democracy or a harvest of wheat- we pass down own intentions to the young. If there is something worth defending people have to be groomed to defend it. 
Is this different from an all encompassing educational model? Our culture is different bc of the exchange of ideas. Not everyone is suited for leadership, are you kidding? we are not all the same, not at the same level of awareness.

Affirmative action is patronizing! And more recently, pandering!

It presupposes a low bar expectation of a human bc of the subgroup they fall into. Defend affirmative action, please if it's a question of democracy in your view.

I want the law to be written by lawyers. The bartenders can read and support the candidate of their choice.
One bartender in congress didn't notice the problem of detaining undocumented people at the border until she was elected. This bartender criticized our democratically elected president for "putting kids in cages". 
Then someone finally pointed out to her that we the US, have been doing that since 2015, when the Anointed One was in the WH.

I'm comparing the idea that 'everyone gets equal treatment' to a lovely daydream, I have it too.
The truth is democracy has evolved and so have many people. People like you should and will move ahead you have a curious mind and strong convictions. 
At this point if you were an animal you would evolve or go extinct. As much as it pains me to say this; Obama pushed political evolution along in a way that serves democracy. I really didn't like it at the time but in retrospect I appreciate the bar he set for public transparency. He talked about aspects of government on late night tv- that again really sickened me- yet dark shadows are being exposed daily.

Quote Everyone better be trained to be good leaders because that is training for citizenship in a democracy.  Comparing this to what happened under Stalinist in a country that never had training for leadership and independent thinking is like comparing and apple with a fish, isn't it?

You are really saying that there is no training for leadership and independent thinking in the US?
Do you attribute that to the crazed leftist view on college campus?

Merit hiring is the only method that should be employed unless a person has completed some training and is just starting out.

No one ever hired me for my circumstances, mostly I just paid attention and worked hard.

Regarding de Tocqueville this is how the connection to Marxism/Communism is made NYTimes article -
the link won't work if you search these terms you might read the article i can't do it justice in a quote.
"...not long before he died, the political philosopher Isaiah Berlin somberly summed up his, and our, age: "I have lived through most of the twentieth century without ... suffering personal hardship. I remember it only as the most terrible century in Western history." What made it so terrible is politics-or, more precisely, the secular religions of National Socialism and communism, which violently sought to transfigure the bourgeois economic and political condition of modern man. The exact number of people killed by these political adventures will never be known, but it exceeds 125 million.
Democratic Capitalism and Its Discontents by Brian C. Anderson


Edited by Vanuatu - 06 Aug 2019 at 06:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 13:24
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

The democratic model for industry does not exist we use the Capitalist model.
I think it is getting much harder to fool the masses, politician's rhetoric is shameless pandering for votes, "end the electoral college"- just say anything!

Huh?  Are you saying democracy is opposed to capitalism?  I am totally confused because I thought we all believed democracy is what resulted in our economic growth.  

Quote

So, there is a degree of sarcasm here its related to earlier comments in your thread. My point, and I apologize for being unclear, is that whether to -defend a great democracy or a harvest of wheat- we pass down own intentions to the young. If there is something worth defending people have to be groomed to defend it. 
Is this different from an all encompassing educational model? Our culture is different bc of the exchange of ideas. Not everyone is suited for leadership, are you kidding? we are not all the same, not at the same level of awareness.

Our culture is different from what?  

I am sorry but your argument sounds like what drove me to a used book store about 35 years ago, to find an old text book that would give me the list of American values everyone child was taught. 

A public commentator said teachers shouldn't have to waste their time on poor students and when I called in shear horror of what he said, he was very pleased with himself because teachers loved his comment.  Shocked  Since then I have built a library filled with old text books and books written about education.  I have a very different point of view because it comes from the past when my grandmother and peers believed they defending democracy in the classroom.   
 
Quote Affirmative action is patronizing! And more recently, pandering!  It presupposes a low bar expectation of a human bc of the subgroup they fall into. Defend affirmative action, please if it's a question of democracy in your view. 

The ideal of democracy is for every person to be enabled to make his/her best contribution to the whole of society.  What do you think would be better?  You don't think  the effort being made today is necessary because of past social injustices and a very different economy than we have now?   Coming from the Enlightenment, the democratic movement is to improve the human potential.    

I am uncomfortable with the disagreement we seem to be having, but that seems to be the result of the education change made in 1858.  We are a nation in cultural crisis Unhappy  and I find this very sad.   The pressure to continue our progress of human decency is extremely high and so is the pressure to judge one another as our world war enemy judged people, on their IQ and merit.  


Quote   I want the law to be written by lawyers.

Then you do not want democracy.  You want authoritarianism and this was totally unexpected from you, but it validates my concern about the change in education has done to our nation.    

Quote The bartenders can read and support the candidate of their choice.
One bartender in congress didn't notice the problem of detaining undocumented people at the border until she was elected. This bartender criticized our democratically elected president for "putting kids in cages".
  and you think it is okay to separate children from their relatives and put them in cages?  
I have to stop here.  

Quote No one ever hired me for my circumstances, mostly I just paid attention and worked hard.
 

 And you have no awareness of the charity and helping hand with dignity that was our Christian past.  This is not an IQ problem it is a problem of the spirit.  



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 14:37
There are two views of representational democracy, one is that such a democracy is about representation, and if the government doesn't represent "me," well I will go and pout.  I tend to think of this as a democrat view, people want candy, and a politician is only as good or as bad as how much they satisfy the candy fix.  The other view of representational democracy is that it is about participation, and that by voting and participating, you are giving your consent to the outcome of the process, even though your guy doesn't necessarily win.  This is more important than just plain representation, because the hardest thing in a government is the transition from one government to another.  Participation gives it credibility regardless of the outcome, whether you favor it or not.  An election decides and it should decide, for the next few years.  
 Some people want to rewrite the last election, they arrogantly presume that, some people's votes should not count.  They can give various reasons, but basically it is because those people don't agree with the enlightened ones.  That rewriting would marginalize those, who by the rules of system, participated and had their candidate win.  Those people have long been marginalized by not only the Democrats, but the Republicans too.   Now they feel like they are being paid attention to.  I don't think that is bad, of course, if you want to vilify the other guy, demonize him, well then maybe it is not you who are "democratic," but the other guy working within the system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 15:10
Not saying that democracy is bad for Capitalism, just the opposite is evident.

Our culture is a democracy, it's special.

Change the culture from media imposed perpetual resentment. There are opportunities.

Of course no one wants children in cages or trafficked, or dying in the desert. They are being held in a Detention Facility, not a daycare. It's actually against the law to cross illegally. D Congress held up funding for beds and other comforts, for those children.

Oh of course I must be morally bankrupt bc if I'm not wrong I must be evil

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 21:05
Modern human rights are just that - modern. Older civilisations and societies would be perplexed at our protections of individuals regardless of circumstance. Except the dole queue though. They would have understood that completely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 10:36
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Modern human rights are just that - modern. Older civilisations and societies would be perplexed at our protections of individuals regardless of circumstance. Except the dole queue though. They would have understood that completely.

Aldous Huxley said...
"In the past, personal and political liberty depended to a considerable extent upon governmental inefficiency.  The spirit of tyranny was always more than willing; but its organization and material equipment were generally weak.  Progressive science and technology have changed all this considerably."

This changes our awareness of human rights.  But if we look into the past, there was slavery and serfdom.  Somehow people developed an idea that a person can own land and force others to work his land.  Philosophy deals with this.  Is it natural?  Should there be a king who enforces this inequality?    Mostly religion controlled what people did, and somehow it became okay to persecute those who held different beliefs.  Kings take away land from Catholics or Protestants or Jews.  What happened to the Jews in the Christian German Republic could happen anywhere to any group of people, without laws to protect human rights.  How the US is treating the homeless and people who cross its boarders, could be part of the discussion of human rights.  

On what do we base our ideas of human rights?  We can not stop with saying it is "the law".  What was done to the Jews was the law and those who faced charges as war criminals defended themselves by saying they were only following orders.  

Liberty is the freedom to define right and wrong as we see it, and democracy is about coming to coming to social agreements about laws enforcing ideas of right and wrong.  Where does our responsibility in this start and where does it end?   This could be an interesting question if we keep Germany in mind and how we justified a war against them and then the war crime trails.   How about our laws protecting us from homeless people, and their rights as human beings?  I live in the West and everyone was homeless when they first arrived.  If we can't do better, maybe we should destroy our cities and outlaw all claims to land?  Do human beings have rights, simply because they are human?  Do they have rights without duties?    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 11:06
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Not saying that democracy is bad for Capitalism, just the opposite is evident.

Our culture is a democracy, it's special.

Change the culture from media imposed perpetual resentment. There are opportunities.

Of course no one wants children in cages or trafficked, or dying in the desert. They are being held in a Detention Facility, not a daycare. It's actually against the law to cross illegally. D Congress held up funding for beds and other comforts, for those children.

Oh of course I must be morally bankrupt bc if I'm not wrong I must be evil


If democracy is good for Capitalism then shouldn't we use the democratic model for industry?   

What is special about our democracy?

Around the world nations have had to deal with refugees.  Each nation has handled the problem differently.  I do not think the way the US has been handling the problem is acceptable.  Sorry, but I associate tolerating something that should not tolerated with Nazi, Germany.  There are times when when need to turn to God with our questions of right and wrong, and oppose the government.  In the words of Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death".  

On the other hand, I do not donate money to feed the starving people around the world.  However, I would donate to birth control programs.   Reality can be extremely harsh and we are limited to what we can do about that.  I am 100% in favor of education in the facts of life. Over population is a serious problem, and oil is finite and we can kill rivers and our ocean.  Our economy will collapse like Rome when we exhaust our supply of oil, or we could go bankrupt paying for wars.  We are doing insane things and there is no excuse for this in a modern world with science and mass communication.   

When it comes to South America, what do we know of their problems?  Jesus said something along the line of what you do to the least of them you do to me.  If they are knocking on our door, what do you think Jesus would do?  I am not Christian, but I do think we should turn to God when determining right from wrong.  

Humans can make really bad laws, and taking hurtful actions, democracy is about correcting them.  America first doesn't sound like a commandment from an universal God and I don't think that thinking will bring out the best in us.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 14:30
Technically, we (US) have a mixed government, with aspects of kingship, aristocracy (or oligarchy if you prefer), and democracy, albeit representative democracy.

Before nature and natural rights, there was the traditional, or the customary.  Nature is a reform on tradition.  Tradition and custom honors what is old, nature is what is most old, even if it has never actually been in existence.  Of course, some people want to get rid of the natural, I don't think they understand what kind of pandora's box that can create.
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I want to comment on concerns that a bartender became a representative.  Peter Defazio has been an Oregon representative sine 1987 and he was a house painter.  The point is, in a democracy anyone can run for office, and education that prepares everyone to be civic and industrial leaders, is about our responsibility as citizens.  If we think things need to be improved, it is our duty to step up to the plate and do something about it.  Our Declaration of Independence could also be titled a Declaration of Responsibility.    

To address what Franciscosan said, our history is tied to kingdoms, kings and slavery.  This is the social order of the Bible, and that is what Christianity supported.  A main reason for having education for democracy is immigrants from Europe were living in kingdoms or autocracies and it was known if we teach the children democrat values their parents will learn.  Philosophers argued that the order of monarchies are not natural. Literacy in Greek and Roman classics lead to people seeing democracy can be compatible with Christianity but this was a hard fight. 

The struggle to replace monarchy with democracy also happened in China where Taoism pressured for a return to nature and Buddhism pressured for equality. Legalism in China made everyone equal under the law.  India had a caste system that to me is no different from having classes and believing God determined who would be a master and who would serve.  

I think some who read the Bible can get the notion that nature is evil and humans are by nature evil and they must have men chosen by God as authority over them.  Really so many of our conflicts are about the nature of man.  The Athenians thought it was our nature to be political.  So what is our nature and is nature good or evil?   

  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 03:54
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Not saying that democracy is bad for Capitalism, just the opposite is evident.

Our culture is a democracy, it's special.

Change the culture from media imposed perpetual resentment. There are opportunities.

Of course no one wants children in cages or trafficked, or dying in the desert. They are being held in a Detention Facility, not a daycare. It's actually against the law to cross illegally. D Congress held up funding for beds and other comforts, for those children.

Oh of course I must be morally bankrupt bc if I'm not wrong I must be evil


If democracy is good for Capitalism then shouldn't we use the democratic model for industry?   

What is special about our democracy?
You tell me, you wrote this-
"I think democracy is about liberty and justice and being empowered do something about liberty and justice.  I believe strongly that our human potential, the very comfortable lives we have now, is the result of understanding democracy and our responsibility as citizens."

Accurate. If you are poor it's the best country to be poor. Even homeless bastards are sh*tting their brains out all over the West Coast bc there is so much free food available.

 " This is something that makes different from Hindu India where for centuries people thought their fate was preordained, as did the people in Christian Europe.  I don't know we say India has a cast system and in the west we have social classes?  Really, are they different?"

Oh Yes. Do need one of those emotional motivational quotes about someone who comes to america with nothing and makes life a great success using Capitalism system?  

"What is different is believing no matter what we are born into we can raise and a democracy can enable everyone to give their best contribution to the whole."

Agree.  

Quote Around the world nations have had to deal with refugees.  Each nation has handled the problem differently.  I do not think the way the US has been handling the problem is acceptable.
Expand on that please. How have we been dealing with it? If you don't follow current events then you should look into. Stop accepting crap news at face value.
Quote Sorry, but I associate tolerating something that should not tolerated with Nazi, Germany.
Then you aren't really thinking it through.
 
Quote There are times when when need to turn to God with our questions of right and wrong, and oppose the government.  In the words of Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death".
Invoking god? teehee 
Quote
On the other hand, I do not donate money to feed the starving people around the world.  However, I would donate to birth control programs. Reality can be extremely harsh and we are limited to what we can do about that.  I am 100% in favor of education in the facts of life.
Unintended pregnacies went up when schools introduced sex education. Thomas Sowell presents the data,(Science!) proving that fact. 
 
Quote  
When it comes to South America, what do we know of their problems?  Jesus said something along the line of what you do to the least of them you do to me.  If they are knocking on our door, what do you think Jesus would do?  I am not Christian, but I do think we should turn to God when determining right from wrong.
Jesus would have broke out some wine, loaves, fishes maybe some mescal. I ain't He.
I'd say show me the Spanish Bastards who took my country's wealth and decimated our population!

Or- please US! Take us in and give us a chance to move our drug cartels further north, sell poor children for the sex trade bc we don't value our own lives nor the lives of our children. Let me cut in line ahead of legal immigrants! I was told that if I bring a child with me I'm in! So I bought an eight month old in Honduras for $500! 

Quote Humans can make really bad laws, and taking hurtful actions, democracy is about correcting them.
democracy is about being free of "really bad laws" and limiting the power of government.
Quote   America first doesn't sound like a commandment from an universal God and I don't think that thinking will bring out the best in us.
Who thinks that now? If every misfit in the world is moving in, where's the money going to come from?
When is the last time a homeless person paid you for working? 
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 04:45
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Modern human rights are just that - modern. Older civilisations and societies would be perplexed at our protections of individuals regardless of circumstance. Except the dole queue though. They would have understood that completely.

Aldous Huxley said...
"In the past, personal and political liberty depended to a considerable extent upon governmental inefficiency.  The spirit of tyranny was always more than willing; but its organization and material equipment were generally weak.  Progressive science and technology have changed all this considerably."
Are you missing the point? I don't agree with him but Huxley is saying the "spirit of tyranny"
is a thing of the past.


Quote This changes our awareness of human rights.  But if we look into the past, there was slavery and serfdom.  Somehow people developed an idea that a person can own land and force others to work his land.  Philosophy deals with this.  Is it natural?
As natural as kids fighting on the playground.
Quote Should there be a king who enforces this inequality?
There isn't a king in the US. Why would you be worrying about that?
Quote    Mostly religion controlled what people did, and somehow it became okay to persecute those who held different beliefs.  Kings take away land from Catholics or Protestants or Jews.  What happened to the Jews in the Christian German Republic could happen anywhere to any group of people, without laws to protect human rights.
We have laws to protect human rights. The Third Reich was not religious in the way you spin the conversation. Hitler was an occultist and the 'gods' were revived from the ancient past, Viking gods and so forth. Calling the Nazis Christians simply isn't accurate. Connecting Luther to the Nazis just because he was German is exactly the kind of reasoning now alarming you about undocumented people at the border. Luther didn't influence the Nazis but if you insist then please expand that argument.
Quote he US is treating the homeless and people who cross its boarders, could be part of the discussion of human rights.
What are these horrible things that the US is imposing on the homeless?
Quote
Onwhat do we base our ideas of human rights? 
US constitution.  
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We can not stop with saying it is "the law".  What was done to the Jews was the law
In fecking Nazi Germany!
Quote
and those who faced charges as war criminals defended themselves by saying they were only following orders. 
It didn't help!
Quote
Liberty is the freedom to define right and wrong as we see it, and democracy is about coming to coming to social agreements about laws enforcing ideas of right and wrong.  Where does our responsibility in this start and where does it end?
US Constitution grants and restricts freedom of individuals and limits the power of government. It gives the Executive Branch the responsibility for protecting the safety of US citizens. The US Constitution is not authorized to provide for the safety of every person on the planet. Wouldn't we be wiser to address urban decay and crime in the US before importing non-citizens? International law requires requests for asylum to be made in the first country one enters after escaping home country. Now dragging kids through 3000 miles of trauma is not about asylum but tapping into the wealth of the US.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 09:35
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

I want to comment on concerns that a bartender became a representative.  Peter Defazio has been an Oregon representative sine 1987 and he was a house painter.  The point is, in a democracy anyone can run for office, and education that prepares everyone to be civic and industrial leaders, is about our responsibility as citizens.  If we think things need to be improved, it is our duty to step up to the plate and do something about it.  Our Declaration of Independence could also be titled a Declaration of Responsibility. 
Good example of a citizen running for office, did he write law? Even if a bartender makes proposals actual politicians will write the laws, legalize.  The citizen should be an informed type, so it really can be a non lawyer.

Quote To address what Franciscosan said, our history is tied to kingdoms, kings and slavery.  This is the social order of the Bible, and that is what Christianity supported.  A main reason for having education for democracy is immigrants from Europe were living in kingdoms or autocracies and it was known if we teach the children democrat values their parents will learn.  Philosophers argued that the order of monarchies are not natural. Literacy in Greek and Roman classics lead to people seeing democracy can be compatible with Christianity but this was a hard fight. 

The struggle to replace monarchy with democracy also happened in China where Taoism pressured for a return to nature and Buddhism pressured for equality. Legalism in China made everyone equal under the law.  India had a caste system that to me is no different from having classes and believing God determined who would be a master and who would serve.  

I think some who read the Bible can get the notion that nature is evil and humans are by nature evil and they must have men chosen by God as authority over them.  Really so many of our conflicts are about the nature of man.  The Athenians thought it was our nature to be political.  So what is our nature and is nature good or evil? 
 

  

It's Nurture/Nature/Bad Seed.
Have you read about cases of feral children? Very interesting one is Kaspar Hauser. 1828 Nuremburg a teenage boy is just abandoned after being kept in a dark cell with a bag on his head hidden from whomever fed him.
A doctor wrote about Hauser and took care of him until his death from a stabbing. It was noted that Hauser had a vaccination mark making him as child of privilege. It was recently revealed that his DNA proves relation to the Bavarian monarchy. It's a mystery who took the boy, speculation about royal ascension have been claimed. 
Hauser is later described in his somewhat non-conditioned state as pre toddler, before Concrete understanding developed. He wouldn't know what happened to a toy if you covered it with a cloth.
he cried when some boys hit a tree and he hugged the tree, like he had the one notion of what to do and did it when he was distressed. He was never seen to act violently and didn't show signs of being physically hit just that he was restrained. He contributed to writing his own life story and is unique for learning to speak as an adult. He claimed he was never spoken to while being held.   


Edited by Vanuatu - 08 Aug 2019 at 09:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 14:19
Athena wrote
Quote   I think some who read the Bible can get the notion that nature is evil and humans are by nature evil and they must have men chosen by God as authority over them.

Throughout history there have been rulers who have claimed direct lineage from their God. Taking a look, for example, at the historical lineage of Ireland, the Ard Ri claimed lineage from Adam. Therefore his rule could not be challenged, unless the usurper would challenge Adams' family.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 02:31
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Technically, we (US) have a mixed government, with aspects of kingship, aristocracy (or oligarchy if you prefer), and democracy, albeit representative democracy.

Before nature and natural rights, there was the traditional, or the customary.  Nature is a reform on tradition.  Tradition and custom honors what is old, nature is what is most old, even if it has never actually been in existence.  Of course, some people want to get rid of the natural, I don't think they understand what kind of pandora's box that can create.

In rereading what you wrote I am reminded of Cicero, on of the most important classical authors for us to read.  Our government is a trinity of power as you said.   

Quote Like Aristotle, Cicero sees three natural (simple) forms of government: monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy.  Interestingly enough, Cicero does not see democracy as the devolved or perverted form of constitutionalism as does Aristotle.  In fact, Cicero doesn’t really see these three forms of having a “perverse” form per Aristotle.  Instead, he just sees these three as having pros and cons that plague each – but all three have positives and negatives and he outlines them toward the end of Book I.  In terms of pure theory, Cicero agrees with Aristotle that democracy/constitutional government is the best (“on paper”).

A trinity, as the triangle, supports and balances the power of each line.  Our president is as the king,  the senate is the aristocracy and the representatives are the people.   Another trinity is the executive,  judicial, and legislative.   The Masons had a lot to do with our constitution and to be one is to know something of sacred math and the construction of the universe.  Wink

"Tradition and custom honors what is old, nature is what is most old, even if it has never actually been in existence."

I come to the forum this morning form a lot of emotional pain that gives a different perspective, and in your thought I know nature is constant change, it is creative and always new and truly it is old.  The universe is one and all inclusive.  From the one are the many.  Democracy is one for all and all for one.

In philosophy the argument of the unnatural was, the inequality of social/political classes that was justified by religions, and therefore, civilized order under kings or tyrants went against nature.  The history of China can greatly help us understand our own struggle with nature and civilization.   As the argument goes, kings and slaves were man made and unnatural order,  but even in nature, primates organize themselves under an alpha male or if they are bonobo- females rule more as a group with agreements.   However, where an alpha male does rule, he rules with the consent of those who are ruled, and unusually in old age he is dethroned.   But- he if has pleased those under him, those under him will defend him and he will remain in power until he dies.  The good ruler needing good social skills and well as being bigger and stronger than all the others.  
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