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Education and Democracy

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 00:07
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

franciscosan "I don't know what France was like in the 1800s, however, Simone Weil said that the French Revolution was a conservative revolution, not a liberal one.  It was at least initially not the intellectuals who took over but the mob, and the Terror."

People don't read long post and our post have been too long and complex and there isn't a strong interest in education so I am going to turn your question into its own thread.  I will also get the lectures about Utopia and Terror from the library.  I think it can be argued that Intellectuals did begin the revolution but the effort to make change spun out of control.  I vaguely remember France was having an economic problem and the king had to tax the elite and they refused to accept that.  Then things spun out of control.  
It was the King Louis XVI my friend Smile and his spendy wife. Remember?  
Massive debt bc of overspending? the peasants were already starving and then a bad harvest, bread gets too expensive and Marie Antoinette's hair just got bigger? 

The progressives began random massacres after starving and getting pumped up on reading George Danton pamphlets. 
The Intellectuals took sides after they saw what happened at the Bastille. The peasants roused a whopping 4 political prisoners you see, their crime? Existence! And then their heads were on pikes. 

There were multiple sects of revolutionaries and the counter revolutionaries were just as vicious. 
These are not just the poor and starving, add pimps, prostitutes, street gangs and thieves. 
(ANTIFA types or Black Lives Matter showing up in Ferguson, now it's a riot) 
So criminals started wearing colors of the sans culottes and went out slaughtering and robbing citizens.

Feel free to make an argument but the facts of the French Revolution and millions of documents don't support the contemporary need for political posturing and virtue signaling spin. 

The French Revolution began, and for its entire duration remained, soaked in innocent blood. Mob tyranny, popular mob “justice”, and widespread paranoia reigned from the moment the Bastille fell until the dawn of the Terror in fall 1793. Contrary to the self-serving and prevailing liberal historiography which dominated nineteenth century studies of the Revolution, which urged that the conflict be separated into a legitimate, ideal, more civilized “liberal” phase (1789-1793) and a tragically unintended, accidental “radical phase” (the Terror, fall 1793-summer 1794), in actuality a clear, uninterrupted, chronological line of popular violence unrestrained by the revolutionary leaders exists from 14 July 1789 onward. From the storming of the Bastille through the Great Fear, October Days, Champs de Mars massacre, and September Massacres, the Revolution – hardly restrained by the liberal Enlightenment ideals which purportedly united its adherents – saw thousands of people slaughtered without trial in the name of liberty.
When a political movement is soaked in blood from its very onset, it is insulting to basic intelligence to argue somehow that it was not violent from its foundation. Before the guillotine, the “national razor”, severed some 17,000 heads, long before the official start of the Terror, Parisian mobs massacred hundreds of royal guards who were simply doing their duty, slaughtered over 1,300 innocent civilians and clergy in Paris jails, and within four years of the Bastille’s storming (itself a violent event), the nascent Republic’s generals slaughtered approximately a quarter of a million people in three years’ time. The term “liberal revolution” with its conjuring of fidelity to restrained, rational liberal Enlightenment ideals is an ignorant misnomer at best and at worst a crass, deliberate fiction. The supreme irony is that from its foundations the Revolution’s radicals lauded the ideals of liberty and universal justice while never consistently abiding by them; decrying the supposed tyranny of an ancien regime that brutally tortured and executed a handful of would-be-regicides and murderers over several centuries, the radical revolutionaries bathed the infant Republic in blood, slaughtering some 250,000 Catholic Frenchmen and women in three years in the name of liberty and justice.
-ryan phunter -wordpress the french revolution, violent from inception



Edited by Vanuatu - 20 Jul 2019 at 01:31
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 01:33
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Regan did spend a lot on defense but Bill Clinton initiated and overwhelmingly had bi-partisan support for welfare reform.

Everyone here was alive during the Lebanon bombings and your version is welcome but I'm very clear about why Iran and US are at odds. You can dig up any old corpse to explain a conflict but I don't hear any ideas for resolution.

Our educational system is Leftist, beyond Liberal! 
Beefy and confused black young men are running track & wrestling in high school sports against girls and taking athletic scholarships!

Unless whitey is the new Jew this isn't a Nazi takeover, unless ANTIFA starts singing kumbaya, Violence is the new progressive watchword. 

Where did ANTIFA come from? 
The neocon schools?

What is your understanding of why Iran and the US are at odds?  That is not a subject I want to get into in this thread, but I am very curious.  

I recently bought a book that blames the National Education Association for the destruction of our morality, decline in test scores, and destruction of parental control of  their children and what they learn, and the increased in the cost of the education.   I do not agree with this point of view but I also share agreements with the author about the schools usurping parental authority and trashing our morals.   I am quite sure the changes are coming from the teachers' training and then get expressed in the NEA.  Another fact the author missed is who is writing the text books and providing materials for teachers!  Big smile  Who is really calling the shots?   I don't think it is NEA but those who control their education.   

It is the textbook publishers who need our attention.  The North attempted to change the culture of the South through education.  The South became aware of this and began publishing its own textbooks. We began mobilizing for the second world war long before we entered it and I have the textbooks to prove that.  In both WWI and WWII our schools played a huge role in mobilization and keeping morale high.  Our education was dominated by Christians and this was reflected in textbooks and the frequent mention of God.  I collect old text books to check these things out.  

I hope to go to the University of Oregon and perhaps audit some classes and ask questions of the department head.  I want to check out the library for teachers too.   I don't know how to work this in with my job, but know some how it must get done!

LOL  I live in the past, old books, and I don't pay attention to today's politics so I knew nothing of ANTIFA.  I laugh because the description of it I found says this folks are acting just like the NAZI with violence.  LOL  That is ridiculous to oppose your foe by being just like your foe.  Whatever, both sides of the conflict have had the same education.   And you bring up a point I want to stress.

Humans need a sense of purpose and they need social esteem.  I know plenty of people withdraw and isolate themselves, like someone who is not good at running is unlikely to join a race, but not participating does not mean we don't have a need to succeed.  Now here is the vital point.  When my grandmother's generation of teachers was defending democracy in the classroom, they were helping each child discover his/her talents and special interest.  I remember the push to choose a hobby, as having a hobby was consider important to our mental health and that is important to our social behavior.  And it didn't stop with our education but communities of any size had fairs, and I so remember the great pride in entering something I did, or my children did, in the fair.  The education we had manifested a community of people engaging with each other and organizing into unions and granges, fraternities, Elks, Masons, etc..  Social needs were met by individuals or groups of individuals not government!  I remember a very, very different reality than the one we have now, and Tocqueville's 1835 book "Democracy in American" praising the US democracy for the very fact that citizens took care of each other and worked together without government intervention and he warned of the coming despot that would control every aspect of our lives.

What does that have to do with NAZI and Anti-NAZI folks?  We need a sense of meaning and social esteem.   We need to belong to social groups and to feel important.  Education manifest a society that does this very well, or does not.  Prussians applied military bureaucracy to citizens, and we adopt that, so now we have a government we can rely on, and our social organizations are behaving like thugs destroying instead of working together to improve the community.  We have had the same education that manifested the thugs that filled the NAZI ranks and being just like them but opposing them, is not really being different is it?  LOL  Yes, the ANTIFA came from the same schools.  

People used to play base ball or foot ball.  The groups we have today are the same human species just playing games with different rules.   LOL  In ancient times competitions and games were invented to civilize the human beast.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 04:03
Texas has a lot of influence on textbook publishers because of its large population and, I believe, centralized buying of textbooks.  California might also.  What do you mean by, "long before we entered it (WWII)"? 2 years, 5 years, 15 years?  World War II did not start in 1941, and so yes we were building to that conclusion before then, but I think that we didn't really mobilize or industrialize for war until after Pearl Harbor December 7th, 1941.

And yet there is such a division between moderates and radicals (on either end of the spectrum), despite them coming from the same schools.  Perhaps the schools are not as influential after all??

United States has its own system of propaganda, always has, that is one reason why we have a two party system which trades off.  Democrats are trying to change that by getting rid of the electoral college.  That way Hillary could have won by ignoring all the 'fly over states.'  

I see atheists as using schools to promote their anti-religious agenda, and religious conservatives coming up with creationism and intelligent design as answers to the atheists pushing religion out.  I think that if there was consistently a bible as literature class offered it would steal the fire from fundamentalists pushing creationism and intelligent design.

Yes, there were a lot more activities in fairs and civic organizations, but you leave out one important influence, churches.  You might ignore them, but just because you don't like them does not mean they will dry up and go away.  Hillary and Obama can talk about "Easter Worshippers" being killed in Sri Lanka, but that is just code talk to avoid calling them Christians which is how they identify themselves and how the attackers identified them as well.

More Christians have been killed in the 20th century than in all other centuries combined.  And yet some people want to paint Christianity as the tyrannical menace that haunts the 20th century.  It would be funny if it were not sad.  I don't know if that is your view, Athena, but if it is you should at least realize the contradiction.


Edited by franciscosan - 20 Jul 2019 at 12:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2019 at 01:50

Quote

What is your understanding of why Iran and the US are at odds?  That is not a subject I want to get into in this thread, but I am very curious.
We can start another thread on US/ Iran- in a nutshell-Zionists made realistic but painful concessions both times interceding countries tried to create two state solution. PLO & Hamas have taken  every inch of land returned to them, not to house the Palestinians but to strategically improve launching sites for attacks on Israel. Every time. Same Story. Iran & Hamas directly & indirectly sponsor terror attacks all over the world and have used money meant for humanitarian aid. Palestinians were drinking water that was only 60% pure (recycled sewer water) until Bill Gates built them a water purification system.
Much more on the topic, could start with Jimmy Carter celebrating 100 years of friendship with Iran in 1973.

Quote I recently bought a book that blames the National Education Association for the destruction of our morality, decline in test scores, and destruction of parental control of  their children and what they learn, and the increased in the cost of the education.   I do not agree with this point of view but I also share agreements with the author about the schools usurping parental authority and trashing our morals.   I am quite sure the changes are coming from the teachers' training and then get expressed in the NEA.  Another fact the author missed is who is writing the text books and providing materials for teachers!  Big smile  Who is really calling the shots?   I don't think it is NEA but those who control their education. 
The NEA is a democrat party animal, teachers call their union reps to ask who they are supposed to be voting for, much like other workers unions. I have no love for the NEA, both my kids were home schooled after elementary age. ANTIFA is the stepchild of "Zietgeist" the popular "Woke" viral youtube which deigns to explain all of civilization in 90 minutes. 
Guess how it ends? 
With sneaky little sh*ts donning masks and violently taking to the streets to, ? destroy the structure of civilization.
I didn't go to the same school as the ANTIFA knuckleheads. Religious schools taught discipline and it had the unintentional effect of seeding esteem and belief in one's self and one's intuition. We had excellent Bull sh*t detectors as does the new generation "Z" who recognize and reject the blatant lies of advertising and politics, love those kids!
Condemn religion if you must. No one has provided more care to starving people than religious groups, their work and provisions surpasses anything given by any government in any time in history. It was the early Church that established Jesus' words "do on to others as you would have done to yourself." Any argument so far?
The dogmatic foolishness of Science is what keeps us in the dark. Religion has not made the mistake of denying the existence of other worlds they call it heaven and hell. 
This is subconscious/conscious/dream state, ancient language allegorical ideas. Science is terrified and Science is clinging much like Galen was to a kidney which he referred to as "The Liver!"

Quote LOL  I live in the past, old books, and I don't pay attention to today's politics so I knew nothing of ANTIFA.  I laugh because the description of it I found says this folks are acting just like the NAZI with violence.  LOL  That is ridiculous to oppose your foe by being just like your foe.  Whatever, both sides of the conflict have had the same education.   And you bring up a point I want to stress.
Again I differ on how much education ANTIFA had and the quality of their thinking and understanding of history. The are no both sides. There aren't even both sexes anymore. Yes it is ridiculous to complain about fascism while being a fascist.

Quote Now here is the vital point.  When my grandmother's generation of teachers was defending democracy in the classroom, they were helping each child discover his/her talents and special interest.  I remember the push to choose a hobby, as having a hobby was consider important to our mental health and that is important to our social behavior.  And it didn't stop with our education but communities of any size had fairs, and I so remember the great pride in entering something I did, or my children did, in the fair.  The education we had manifested a community of people engaging with each other and organizing into unions and granges, fraternities, Elks, Masons, etc..  Social needs were met by individuals or groups of individuals not government!  I remember a very, very different reality than the one we have now, and Tocqueville's 1835 book "Democracy in American" praising the US democracy for the very fact that citizens took care of each other and worked together without government intervention and he warned of the coming despot that would control every aspect of our lives.
We had Church centered activities, that's no different than stories of the Elders. Maybe you just think that way bc you didn't experience the church except through criticisms and blame it for the ills of the world.

Quote What does that have to do with NAZI and Anti-NAZI folks? 
*The German model is not the problem in schools, IMHO. The shutting down of original thinking and compelled adherence to group speech is fascism, that is what Nazism was and that is what ANTIFA represents, fascism. 
You may not have seen how they start fires to force conservatives speaking events to be shut down. 
I saw a grown man punch a young lady -just a committed hay-maker right at her head at Berkeley during a scheduled event that ANTIFA shut down. There is youtube video of ANTIFA brutally attacking a journalist about two weeks ago.

Are schools here to encourage the exchange of ideas?
Schools can never teach kids what their family culture can teach. You liked having a hobby, did your self esteem rise while in the school building proper?
Elementary schools could be more helpful in noticing natural talents and stop insisting on barbiturates for children who dare to fiddle in their seats.
I know the NEA puts a lot of pressure on teachers, locally now our schools will have kids spend snow days at virtual school. Maybe increasingly supplementing attendance at actual 'school' with home school.
Do you plan to send your kids to a public high school?




Quote We need a sense of meaning and social esteem.   We need to belong to social groups and to feel important.  Education manifest a society that does this very well, or does not.  Prussians applied military bureaucracy to citizens, and we adopt that, so now we have a government we can rely on, and our social organizations are behaving like thugs destroying instead of working together to improve the community.  We have had the same education that manifested the thugs that filled the NAZI ranks and being just like them but opposing them, is not really being different is it?    
LOL
People used to play base ball or foot ball.  The groups we have today are the same human species just playing games with different rules.   LOL  In ancient times competitions and games were invented to civilize the human beast.  


The Germans are hard working brilliant engineers and scientists, also some great humanitarians. If US copied their model it's because they were enormously successful and dominated industrialization developments. There are bloody cutting edge inventors!  
 
The schools are teaching hate the Founders, Hate the Revolutionaries, Hate coming together and fight each other so politicians can keep devising election strategies.

Cheers to allowing the youth to shine with own natural talents, or at least help them find their gifts!Beer


Edited by Vanuatu - Yesterday at 03:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2019 at 09:44
 
Quote Athena-What does that have to do with NAZI and Anti-NAZI folks?  We need a sense of meaning and social esteem.   We need to belong to social groups and to feel important.  Education manifest a society that does this very well, or does not.  Prussians applied military bureaucracy to citizens, and we adopt that, so now we have a government we can rely on, and our social organizations are behaving like thugs destroying instead of working together to improve the community.  We have had the same education that manifested the thugs that filled the NAZI ranks and being just like them but opposing them, is not really being different is it?    Yes, the ANTIFA came from the same schools.
 
Post WW1 the Germans were looking for a national identity. Germany never accepted the validity of the treaty of Versailles, multiple regions agreed to some conditions, refusing others while most of the population is suicidal, they owe something like 16 billion in today's money for war damages. 

Alienation, despair, hunger and Hitler were able to fine tune the anxieties into rage and fire. Germany skipped the mass lone shooter step and went straight to thuggish domination and all the rest. Hitler mobilized an entire world war by lecturing and feeding into a terror that already existed. Terrifying.

Our schools produce mass shooters, the types that can kill a group of 20+ five year old kids. Even the Nazis worried about the effects of troops seeing and participating in repetitive violent acts. They didn't want to win the war only to have a country full of psycho killers. They already knew what repeated killing does to a human being's psyche whether you feel justified in killing or not. 

That's why they started the camps for gassing people, death at a distance with no single responsible hand to bear all the guilt. And to spare them watching women, children and old people killed for no reason. No honor for the German heroes in that killing, Valkyries don't come for the devil. 

No we in US did not have the same education as those who filled the Nazi ranks, not the life situation and not a 70 year old curriculum.


Edited by Vanuatu - 22 Jul 2019 at 12:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 02:05
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Texas has a lot of influence on textbook publishers because of its large population and, I believe, centralized buying of textbooks.  California might also.  What do you mean by, "long before we entered it (WWII)"? 2 years, 5 years, 15 years?  World War II did not start in 1941, and so yes we were building to that conclusion before then, but I think that we didn't really mobilize or industrialize for war until after Pearl Harbor December 7th, 1941.

And yet there is such a division between moderates and radicals (on either end of the spectrum), despite them coming from the same schools.  Perhaps the schools are not as influential after all??

United States has its own system of propaganda, always has, that is one reason why we have a two party system which trades off.  Democrats are trying to change that by getting rid of the electoral college.  That way Hillary could have won by ignoring all the 'fly over states.'  

I see atheists as using schools to promote their anti-religious agenda, and religious conservatives coming up with creationism and intelligent design as answers to the atheists pushing religion out.  I think that if there was consistently a bible as literature class offered it would steal the fire from fundamentalists pushing creationism and intelligent design.

Yes, there were a lot more activities in fairs and civic organizations, but you leave out one important influence, churches.  You might ignore them, but just because you don't like them does not mean they will dry up and go away.  Hillary and Obama can talk about "Easter Worshippers" being killed in Sri Lanka, but that is just code talk to avoid calling them Christians which is how they identify themselves and how the attackers identified them as well.

More Christians have been killed in the 20th century than in all other centuries combined.  And yet some people want to paint Christianity as the tyrannical menace that haunts the 20th century.  It would be funny if it were not sad.  I don't know if that is your view, Athena, but if it is you should at least realize the contradiction.

In 1940 the text books "Democracy Series" was published by The Macmillan Company in New York. This was the result of the 1939 Congress on Education for Democracy.    The EDITOR'S PREFACE FOR TEACHERS, explains because we disagree and criticize our country, ....

Quote It is important, therefore, in the long view of educational statesmanship that we take care to emphasize with children in constructive fashion the characteristics of democracy which belong to our heritage and which, if not emphasized, may be accepted with indifference and treated with negligence.  This indifference and ignorance will make our children easy victims of minority groups who assail the realistic weaknesses of our democratic institutions and exalt the idealistic virtues of other ways of life which are glamorous because they are distant.

This series of books starts simple like Dick and Jane books promoting family, courage, honesty, etc..  It advances to our history and the how bad things were before we had protected rights and political power.  It goes on to explain not all countries have advanced as ours, and clearly uses Germany as an example of where people do not have lives as good as ours.   Such books were not written just for children.  There were also adult versions.  Media was used to get us on the same page about what our national values are and why they must be defended.  This does not necessarily mean going to war.  The focus is defending these values at home and boy or boy could we use this education now!  However, the secondary effect was willingness to fight in foreign wars for our values and a democracy we understood, much better than we seem to understand our democracy today.    

You said "And yet there is such a division between moderates and radicals (on either end of the spectrum), despite them coming from the same schools.  Perhaps the schools are not as influential after all??"

And I am jumping up and down and yelling "yes, yes, you are right".  That is why I write about democracy and education.  Jefferson understood the problem back in his day and devoted himself to promoting public education for everyone as the way to have liberty and a strong and united republic.
At the 1917 National Education Association, one speaker after another made it clear, the strength of our national and liberty depends on education for our national values.   That is something we stopped doing almost completely  in 1958 when we began educating for a technological society with unknown values.  

You are right to say churches have been a powerful force and I will add to this, Germany was a Christian republic not so different from our own.  Education for technology for military and industrial purpose, and leaving moral training to the church, has ramifications and we are seeing them now.  The education we had before 1958 manifested a very different social, economic and political reality.  That is why I write.   It is interesting that we think democracy is Christian.  No one saw democracy in the bible until there was literacy in Greek and Roman classics, and that is we need to study if we want a strong democracy, not the bible.  Christianity was a still is a serous problem to democracy.  I will gladly argue this point using arguments made in a book written by a Christian woman about the National Education Association demonizing teachers for there lack of morals, and greed for money and power.  

The God of Abraham people include Jews, Christians and Muslims.  These people share the same creation story and other old testaments stories and the prophets.  The religions do not work well with democracy unless there is also education for democracy.  On the other hand, war is good for religion and religion is good for war and these people have been warriors, especially the Muslims and Christians.  They tend to be hawks and as accepting as human suffering as Hindus.  Such religion does not bring us to the science and technological advancements have raised the human potential but actually stands in the way the education that has overcome evils and the matter was made worse when we ended education for good moral judgment and left that to the church!  Shocked  Now we do not know what reason has to do with moral judgment and what that has to do with our liberty, and why education for that is so important and you are right about Texas's power in the publication of textbooks, but a supreme court ruled Creationism is not science and does not belong in science books.   
I have a notion of God and I am passionate about morality and understand it is essential to our liberty, and I am not a religious person.   Do any of the religions respect that?  I can not image how we would have a problem with religion if they all respected the beliefs of others.  The religions did not bring us peace.  Democracy did.  Until reading the book I just I bought, written by a Christian woman, I would not have spoken so boldly about the problem of religion, but she is a hawk and she defends segregation and inequality.  I have seen religion as a problem for many years, but my objections to it were not as firmly validated as they are now thanks a Christian's attacks on the National Education Association, and inadvertently attacks on our democratic values.

If you rather I stop posting in the forums because of my stand on religion, I will respect that.  But I will not join the Christians in a war against Muslims, nor support our aid to Israel at the expense of the Palestinians.  Nor agree to not teaching the young the high order thinking skills, and teaching them religious mythology in place of science.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 02:18
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Athena said [qoute]"What does that have to do with NAZI and Anti-NAZI folks?  We need a sense of meaning and social esteem.   We need to belong to social groups and to feel important.  Education manifest a society that does this very well, or does not.  Prussians applied military bureaucracy to citizens, and we adopt that, so now we have a government we can rely on, and our social organizations are behaving like thugs destroying instead of working together to improve the community.  We have had the same education that manifested the thugs that filled the NAZI ranks and being just like them but opposing them, is not really being different is it?    Yes, the ANTIFA came from the same schools.
"
Post WW1 the Germans were looking for a national identity. Germany never accepted the validity of the treaty of Versailles, multiple regions agreed to some conditions, refusing others while most of the population is suicidal, they owe something like 16 billion in today's money for war damages. 

Alienation, despair, hunger and Hitler were able to fine tune the anxieties into rage and fire. Germany skipped the mass lone shooter step and went straight to thuggish domination and all the rest. Hitler mobilized an entire world war by lecturing and feeding into a terror that already existed. Terrifying.

Our schools produce mass shooters, the types that can kill a group of 20+ five year old kids. Even the Nazis worried about the effects of troops seeing and participating in repetitive violent acts. They didn't want to win the war only to have a country full of psycho killers. They already knew what repeated killing does to a human being's psyche whether you feel justified in killing or not. 

That's why they started the camps for gassing people, death at a distance with no single responsible hand to bear all the guilt. And to spare them watching women, children and old people killed for no reason. No honor for the German heroes in that killing, Valkyries don't come for the devil. 

No we in US did not have the same education as those who filled the Nazi ranks, not the life situation and not a 70 year old curriculum.
[/QUOTE]

Well things are not going as well as I thought.  This is your forum and I am the new comer.  I think I should withdrew.  I apologize for disrupting your forum, but education for technology for military and industrial purpose, is not the education we had before 1958, and I don't want to argue about that and the religious issues with someone I like are respect.  That would be bad manners.  Besides, facts don't really matter when emotions are bad because it is the emotions that will rule, not reason. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 02:51
Athena,
Have you had a lifetime of people agreeing with you? I don't know anyone who has.
We disagree here but no one is asking or expecting you believe in religion or creationism. This is point, counter point. we do discuss current affairs it's relevant to historical trends, politics, wars etc.

I think you are very likable yourself but that won't keep me from opening my big mouth!Wink

No dispute about the change in education under LBJ, I can obviously produce the posting to prove it.

It's a BIG subject, you said so Smile it can take however long it takes to exhaust our interest. We show restraint but you also could restrain your compulsion to be repulsed by other opinions. 

Religion for me has been a long strange trip and you haven't heard the half of it, some of the things you have mentioned are modern politically motivated myth or I perceive them as such so you have been challenged a bit and you challenged us. I see no problem here at all.
You should stay. And choose a quote Tongue !


Edited by Vanuatu - 22 Jul 2019 at 02:53
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 12:12
Many "primitive" tribes have had a form of democracy all of their lives.

They certainly are/were educated in their particular surroundings, but not educated to what we call our standards.

From this, I submit that education and democracy are entwined in some societies, otherwise how would you describe those modern states, with a more than reasonable level of education, which are not democrasies?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 12:33
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Many "primitive" tribes have had a form of democracy all of their lives.

They certainly are/were educated in their particular surroundings, but not educated to what we call our standards.

From this, I submit that education and democracy are entwined in some societies, otherwise how would you describe those modern states, with a more than reasonable level of education, which are not democrasies?
Hi toyomotor, do the nationalist of a given country usually share a common religious upbringing? 

Even as there are multiple religions sharing neighborhoods, generally the founding principles of a nation are in agreement with the same religious ideology of the oldest belief systems.

Athena, isn't this your boy de Tocqueville? 

Alexis de Tocqueville, in his masterful work, “Democracy in America,” taught that religion is necessary for a healthy political order. As I argue at greater length in a new First Principles essay, American democracy, according to Tocqueville, owes both its origins and its preservation to Christianity. He thought religion “should be considered the first” of America’s “political institutions.”

By teaching the equality of all men before God, Christianity laid the groundwork for the rise of a belief in equality of all before the law.

Tocqueville observed that the modern impulse toward democracy and belief in equality emerged first and made great progress in the Christian nations of Europe. This was no accident: By teaching the equality of all men before God, Christianity laid the groundwork for the rise of a belief in equality of all before the law.

Christianity also played a key role in fostering the growth of democratic self-government in America. The tone of American political life was set by the Puritan settlers of New England. These pilgrims came to America in order to live out their religious beliefs in communities of their own creation. They governed their churches democratically, and by so doing they developed the expectation that they would settle political questions democratically, forming as well the habits of participation by which they could do so.

The liberal Left continue to push their radical agenda against American values. The good news is there is a solution. Find out more >>

Nevertheless, Tocqueville did not treat American Christianity as if it were a mere relic of the past, necessary to institute American democracy but to be discarded after it had performed this useful political task.

On the contrary, he held that the spirit of Christianity helped American democracy to continue to flourish even after it had been established. For Tocqueville, political freedom requires an unshakeable moral foundation that only religion can supply.

“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 13:50
So primitive societies have written constitutions, and written laws with rule by law and juries rather than kings or chiefs?  I do not think so.

Athena, My academic background is in philosophy and Classics.  So, I am very fond of Classical literature and culture.  But, in the Roman Empire, philosophy was really for the elite.  Some people however, got moral education not from Greek philosophy, but from Jewish synagogues.  These people were pagans, but were called "God fearers."  These "God fearers" provided some of the early gentile Christians to which Paul appealed.  One of the early characteristics that first appealed to early Christians, and have ever since, is a kind of moral education.  By "moral education" I mean education into the mores of society, the rules and conventions of society.  Again, philosophy is great, but I believe that for a popular education for the everyday individual, religion has traditionally given us a moral grounding.  People, particularly the new atheists, think we can do without.  And on an individual basis, we can, although I think people are borrowing a lot of inertia from the previous paradigm, so to speak.

I find it interesting that Classicists tend to ignore ancient Judaism, and other cultures.  Some scholars, however, are reaching out, and showing how Greece (and Rome) was not so separate from the other parts of the ancient world.  Don't get me wrong, I understand why such a division is made.  To a certain extent it is practical, but also Hellenophiles like to show how unique the Greeks were, which they were, but not completely.  For example, Walter Burkert looked at the influences between Greece and Babylon, Sardis and Memphis.  But, yes Judeo-Christian is very different from Greco-Roman, although they were in a way in the same universe.

I think that Christianity is in a way foundational for American democracy.  Problem is, if you dig up the foundations of building, it will collapse, so let's leave the foundation alone and go on to other things, or rather back to the issue of democracy and education.  
Of course, we might not have one level of foundation, I would say Western Civ is founded on the twin pillars of Greco-Roman, and Judeo-Christian culture as well.  Not that I am adverse to occasionally borrowing from elsewhere.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 21:47
Quote World War II did not start in 1941, and so yes we were building to that conclusion before then, but I think that we didn't really mobilize or industrialize for war until after Pearl Harbor December 7th, 1941.
The US was well aware of the possibility of hostilities with Japan but the idea of being unprepared was not well received (qv the Billy Mitchell trial for instance). America was determined to avoid entanglements in Europe but military sales to Britain and France were allowed past the Neutrality Act by Roosevelt who spoke out and said "Let America be the arsenal of democracy". It isn't generally realised that US warships were escorting early merchant convoys across the Atlantic as far as Iceland until Germany declared war in 1942.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 02:49
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

So primitive societies have written constitutions, and written laws with rule by law and juries rather than kings or chiefs?  I do not think so.

franciscosan, who are you addressing?Approve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 03:21
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Many "primitive" tribes have had a form of democracy all of their lives.

They certainly are/were educated in their particular surroundings, but not educated to what we call our standards.

From this, I submit that education and democracy are entwined in some societies, otherwise how would you describe those modern states, with a more than reasonable level of education, which are not democrasies?
toyomotor, you know I love the Uncontacted Tribes Wink
Certainly every little tribesman has a relevant education. And they have a system for their idea of fairness even if they don't call it democracy or have a constitution written on banana leaf.

The Massai, Akka, Sambia tribes of Africa all use occasional male/female role reversal to experience the perspective of the other which promotes cooperation. And some tribes assume the care of one of the offspring of a neighboring tribe for limited times while entrusting one of their own to the other. 
This promotes peace and altruism. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 12:56
Did you know that the last Australian Aborigines to be contacted by whites only occurred in 1984?
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Vanuatu View Drop Down

I learned about hatred of the National Education Association only a week ago.  With you being one of the people who hates the National Education Education Association, I wonder how did you learn of it?

I am using this link to understand what you hate and stand against.  https://eagleforum.org/publications/psr/aug12.html

Does your position mean to you are in favor of racism, and other prejudices against people who are different, and oppose desegregation, efforts to end inequality, and are okay with neglecting the health needs of children and family problems that ruin children's futures?  Does your position mean you do not want children to learn of the rest of world, nor about environment and harm being done to people by unsafe mining and industrial practices.  Are you opposed to discussion of global warming in schools?  

Are you opposed to teaching children to be independent thinkers and learning the higher order thinking skills?  Are you opposed to schools teaching children values as they once did?  

Also I don't want to discuss religion with you if you are Christian.  I will answer any questions about non religious beliefs and my concerns about morality and what I think morality has to do with our liberty and democracy.  I am fine with discussing my beliefs, but I think it would be wrong of me to challenge your religious beliefs.   

Are you opposed to the United Nations and in favor of war?  Like there are two ways to resolve conflicts right, killing each other or reasoning until there is a consensus on the best reasoning.  Like do you hate the NEA's stand on peace not war?  

Even before the internet developed the forums we have today, I have been accustom to dealing with arguments opposing what I say.  I am on the side of Palestinians because of the relationships I built with Palestinians and a Muslim Egyptian back in the day, and people do not like what I have to say about the mid east conflicts or the Military Industrial Complex.  I am attacked repeatedly for what I say, but always those who argue against me impress me as ignorant people and so there is a chance information will change their mind.  You appear to be well informed and that is a whole different game.  Well informed have no reason to change what they believe and no good can come out of arguing with them.   I don't think either one of us will change our values, so it is probably a good idea to check how serious our differences are and for me to bow out of the forum if the differences are as bad as I think.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 13:29
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Did you know that the last Australian Aborigines to be contacted by whites only occurred in 1984?

It's mind boggling toyomotor, you say the aborigines had never even seen the whites? Do you you know the are where this happened?-thanks 
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 14:11
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

Vanuatu View Drop Down

I learned about hatred of the National Education Association only a week ago.  With you being one of the people who hates the National Education Education Association, I wonder how did you learn of it?

I am using this link to understand what you hate and stand against.  https://eagleforum.org/publications/psr/aug12.html
Hi Athena, I looked at the link briefly and for now my answers will be brief bc it's late but I would like to hear your views, even in opposition to mine. NEA, nutshell- my mom wasn't a teacher but she did work in bilingual education and was in the teacher's union. She had many years of devoted service and basically got cast aside in a very disrespectful way with the union being the main thrust of that indignity. She was also a lifelong D., and politically active, Dad was a R. and it was a part of our family culture. 

Quote Does your position mean to you are in favor of racism, and other prejudices against people who are different, and oppose desegregation, efforts to end inequality, and are okay with neglecting the health needs of children and family problems that ruin children's futures?  Does your position mean you do not want children to learn of the rest of world, nor about environment and harm being done to people by unsafe mining and industrial practices.  Are you opposed to discussion of global warming in schools?
Very angry about no reparations for people who lived in the Jim Crow south. There are many of them who are still alive and deserve reparations and their dignity returned. Child development was my first career and I love Piaget, found your James to be enlightened and ahead of his time. Global Warming is a semantic sticking point bc it divides politically. I say call it "pollution" and responsible stewardship of our beautiful planet. The kids already know the polluting has to stop, they were born ready to clean up the mess that's been neglected too long.

Quote Are you opposed to teaching children to be independent thinkers and learning the higher order thinking skills?  Are you opposed to schools teaching children values as they once did?
Elementary schools should reflect the values of their community, good PTA's can be very effective and voters who create relationships with state Rep's get useful information on getting extra funding. 
Values like the Golden Rule? 

Quote Also I don't want to discuss religion with you if you are Christian.  I will answer any questions about non religious beliefs and my concerns about morality and what I think morality has to do with our liberty and democracy.  I am fine with discussing my beliefs, but I think it would be wrong of me to challenge your religious beliefs.
Not a problem. Respond to a thread if you are interested, I welcome challenges and no time now to get into "beliefs" but I'm sure it's not traditional lol. Tell us what you think about your soul and your ancestors we have an appetite for these discussions here.

Quote Are you opposed to the United Nations and in favor of war?  Like there are two ways to resolve conflicts right, killing each other or reasoning until there is a consensus on the best reasoning.  Like do you hate the NEA's stand on peace not war?
 
Eisenhower was right about MIC, he warned about unending war to line the pockets of defense contractors & others who get rich off war. I don't want to see anyone suffering.  

Quote Even before the internet developed the forums we have today, I have been accustom to dealing with arguments opposing what I say.  I am on the side of Palestinians because of the relationships I built with Palestinians and a Muslim Egyptian back in the day, and people do not like what I have to say about the mid east conflicts or the Military Industrial Complex.  I am attacked repeatedly for what I say, but always those who argue against me impress me as ignorant people and so there is a chance information will change their mind.  You appear to be well informed and that is a whole different game.  Well informed have no reason to change what they believe and no good can come out of arguing with them.   I don't think either one of us will change our values, so it is probably a good idea to check how serious our differences are and for me to bow out of the forum if the differences are as bad as I think.    
The situation with the Palestinians is heart wrenching and I support them as a people. They were made pawns of other nations. The West Bank was annexed to Jordan in 1948 but rather than creating a peaceful homeland, Palestinians were forced to live on a constant battlefield while anti-Israeli forces used Gaza to constantly attack Israel. It went that way until Jordan loses Gaza in 1967.
I support Israel  as a people it has very little to do with land, I like archaeology, ancient history and religious philosophy. Christian roots and the mysticism of the Kabbalah is real treasure, the poetry of the Muslim poet Rumi is light years ahead of our time. The art of Islamic Spain is some of the most exquisite in existence.
It's not so bad, we like you. Your a Good Writer Thumbs Up 


Edited by Vanuatu - 18 hours 36 minutes ago at 00:50
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 6 hours 47 minutes ago at 12:39
Yes, this took place in Western Australia. Aboriginal "tribes" are usually small and often comprise members of the same family.

Apparently, some of the tribe were rounded up by whites and taken to a community where they settled, but some were overlooked, and it was an accidental meeting between the "Lost Tribe" and other members of the tribe which eventually led to them being brought into the community.

For many Aboriginals, the English language remains as a second language, and, conversing in their tribal language to the "Lost Tribe" were told about the new foods that would be available to them, and even that water came out of pipes. They found it unbelievable.

One member of the "Lost Tribe" couldn't settle in the community and returned to live in the desert. The remainder stayed in the community where they are still learning some of the White Fella ways.

The Australian Aborigines are recognised as being the last of the stone age people.

You might like to Google Australian Lost Tribes for some more detail.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3 hours 39 minutes ago at 15:47
About primitive people having democracy and the aboriginal people of Australia-

Before civilizations, all relationships were informal and personal.  Writing and large masses of people leads to formal rules/laws and impersonal relationships.    

Religions including what we call mythologies can lead to authoritarianism that did not exist, without a notion of gods and people being favored by gods, justifying the division of rulers and their subjects.   Such a belief is not good for democracy.   

If I remember correctly Greek gods are about a family, not a God with the powers of a king ruling over subjects.  Hebrews held the notion that a God gave them leaders and this special connection with God is inherited.  Hebrews and Greeks had quite a war when the Greeks took over and did not respect the Hebrew line of inheritance when appointing people to positions in the government based on merit not heritage.   

The Disney movie Lion King is a good Christian movie that Patrick Henry and Ben Franklin might not appreciate.   While the native Americans they encountered had a federation and council of elders.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 3 hours 37 minutes ago at 15:49
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Yes, this took place in Western Australia. Aboriginal "tribes" are usually small and often comprise members of the same family.

Apparently, some of the tribe were rounded up by whites and taken to a community where they settled, but some were overlooked, and it was an accidental meeting between the "Lost Tribe" and other members of the tribe which eventually led to them being brought into the community.

For many Aboriginals, the English language remains as a second language, and, conversing in their tribal language to the "Lost Tribe" were told about the new foods that would be available to them, and even that water came out of pipes. They found it unbelievable.

One member of the "Lost Tribe" couldn't settle in the community and returned to live in the desert. The remainder stayed in the community where they are still learning some of the White Fella ways.

The Australian Aborigines are recognised as being the last of the stone age people.

You might like to Google Australian Lost Tribes for some more detail.
Yes I'd like to see if anyone spoke to these individuals and whether they said anything about "Walkabout"
thanks!
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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