| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Empires, complex systems, and collapses
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Empires, complex systems, and collapses

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Empires, complex systems, and collapses
    Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 05:43
A lecture delivered by Niall Ferguson in Australia, courtesy of ABC:

http://fora.tv/2010/07/28/Niall_Ferguson_Empires_on_the_Edge_of_Chaos#fullprogram

Over an hour on cyclic theories of empire growth and decay, the substitution of complex system theory, and the implications of the present economic situation and the possibility of sudden collapse.

Delivered at a dinner of the Centre for Independent Studies in Sydney, a libertarian group.

Goes on over an hour but it's split into segments you can jump to.


Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
King Kang of Mu View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
(Foot)Balling DJ from da Eastside

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1408
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 07:42
thanks gcle. 

i havent read any of his books but i've watched most of his docus on bbc and pbs.  but he seems to make a docu every time he write a major book now days, hehehe. 

if anything he's quite a good public speaker, i enjoy listening to him even if i dont particularly agree with what he says.  i'll check this one out for sure. 

im gonna list some of his docus i've seen for anyone who might be interested


Niall Ferguson - Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World

this one is 6 episodes total...... i'll list the opening parts of each episodes

Episode 1 - Why Britain?(part p1/5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSbMBh0YC1c

Episode 2 - White Plague (part1/5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07r9_NkVfGM&feature=related

Episode 3 - The Mission (part 1/5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZclmgPRrgM&feature=related
 
Episode 4 - Heaven's Breed (part 1/5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk_quPDD1vo&feature=related

Episode 5 - Maxim Force(part1/5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUxYIUuxU8U&feature=related

Episode 6 - Empire for Sale(part 1/5)
http://www.youtube.com/user/BradlehAaron#p/u/89/L6rwbm27qYI



The War of the World

total 30 parts in this youtube version.....about 10 mins each.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP_X7cb-gwU&feature=related




The Ascent of Money

on PBS

The Ascent of Money | Part 1: From Bullion to Bubbles
The Ascent of Money | Part 2: Bonds of War
The Ascent of Money | Part 3: Risky Business
The Ascent of Money | Part 4: Planet Finance





Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought.

Milan Kundera
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 08:01
Britain only? That's so arrogant.
Back to Top
King Kang of Mu View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
(Foot)Balling DJ from da Eastside

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1408
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 08:39
well it's rather poetic title than a historic title perhaps.  i dont think he's trying to say britain 'only' at any point, but british empire does have lot to do with so called 'modern world'.  he's just trying to detail how it was carried out.   i didnt find that docu as overly critical or apologetic of the british empire.  good or bad it was one of the most influential empire that helped to change the world from absolute statism/colonialism to capitalism based imperialism which is still predominant in the world we live in today.  i found his perspective on british/dutch merger, which he calls the british, 'the super dutch', why the brits won india over the french.  and describing warren hasting incident and end of newab rule as imperial gov't bailing out and taking over private colonial enterprise, and etc were quite refreshing to me.  perhaps because of his ability to relate to contemporary global financial crisis.


Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought.

Milan Kundera
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 11:57
I'm going to see the series, anyways.

I saw the first chapter. The speaker forgot to say that to produce suggar in Jamaica it was necessary the explotation of slaves Confused
So, in short, as far as I undestood, Britain started with piracy and then switched to slavery. Confused
Well, still it wasn't the times of the Industrial Revolution, when the empire started to exploit its own people, the poor British citizens, men women and children.

Another stupid comment was the comparison with Spanish and theirs "plunder" of Central America. The speaker said that by contrast Britain went to Indian to trade... The speaker forgot the main trade for Britain in India was opium, sold to the Chinese! Confused

Yes, I am having a lot of fun with this series LOLLOL


Edited by pinguin - 20 Jan 2011 at 12:33
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 15:44
Quote I saw the first chapter. The speaker forgot to say that to produce suggar in Jamaica it was necessary the explotation of slaves


The Spanish brought the first slaves to Jamaica. Seems the British just followed the Spanish example.

Quote So, in short, as far as I undestood, Britain started with piracy and then switched to slavery.


Yes, it took a while, but finally the British caught up to what their French, Iberian and Muslim contemporaries were doing. What a bad example these larger and wealthier nations set for small, poor and tiny England.

Quote Well, still it wasn't the times of the Industrial Revolution, when the empire started to exploit its own people, the poor British citizens, men women and children.


All nations exploited their men, women and children. Name me one country back then that didn't employ children in dangerous hard labour.

The British, with their superior intellectual curiosity, simply invented many of the work practices and machines to make it safer. Eventually the wealth that this created ensured that British children could get an elementary education, while children in the rest of the world continued doing dangerous jobs with primitive machinery.

Quote Yes, I am having a lot of fun with this series


Please keep watching.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 15:48
Good thread by the way. I own Ferguson's book (How Britain made the modern world) and have read it in its entirety.

I will examine the other work and the lecture if I find the time.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 21:52
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


The Spanish brought the first slaves to Jamaica. Seems the British just followed the Spanish example.


But the speaker made us to believe suggar grew in trees LOL

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


Yes, it took a while, but finally the British caught up to what their French, Iberian and Muslim contemporaries were doing. What a bad example these larger and wealthier nations set for small, poor and tiny England.


But Britain surpassed them all. LOL

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


All nations exploited their men, women and children. Name me one country back then that didn't employ children in dangerous hard labour.


Well, the British started it. No doubt.

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


The British, with their superior intellectual curiosity, simply invented many of the work practices and machines to make it safer. Eventually the wealth that this created ensured that British children could get an elementary education, while children in the rest of the world continued doing dangerous jobs with primitive machinery.


The redemption of the Machine, I would say Big smile

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


Please keep watching.


Certainly I will. I love comedy. LOL



Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 00:07
I partly agree with Pinguin on this. Mr. Ferguson gives alot of good points but sometimes the tide of nationalism/ideology (he is a free market monetarist) takes him away.
 
Britain did contribute alot particularly when it comes to agricultural/industrial revolutions but it didn't shape the modern world alone nor it was always for the good of man kind.
 
Al-Jassas
 
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 02:29
In this paticular lecture I don't agree with everything Ferguson says either: in particularhe constructs a bad straw man argument against 'Keynesian' stimuli in the face of deflationary depression - but at least he faces the fact that it IS a deflationary depression and it won't sort itself out.
 
And what in particular appealed to me was what I emphasised in the thread title: viewingh the rise and decline of empires (great ones or minor ones) as being subject more to the laws of complex systems (i.e. always 'teetering on the verge of chaos') than to classical models, especially in regard to economic phenomena.
 
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 02:32
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

I partly agree with Pinguin on this. Mr. Ferguson gives alot of good points but sometimes the tide of nationalism/ideology (he is a free market monetarist) takes him away.
 
Britain did contribute alot particularly when it comes to agricultural/industrial revolutions but it didn't shape the modern world alone nor it was always for the good of man kind.
 
Al-Jassas
 
What country in its heyday did more to shape the modern world? (For better or for that matter for worse.) Pinguin's atitude is an irrelevant aside. The modern world has a lot wrong with it as well as a lot right.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 03:02
What do you mean by modern world? As far as I know, the Americans have done a lot more than Britain to modernize the world.
In any case, the speaker arrogant attitude in that series is very funny LOL


Edited by pinguin - 21 Jan 2011 at 03:03
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 04:22
Deja vu anyone? The book upon which the series is based is already some frigging 8 years old! If anyone here is unwilling to accept the major flaw in the written work they will certainly swallow the eye candy. The dominant assumption (and major mistake) of Ferguson's interpretation was easily dissected long ago:
 
Ferguson seems to believe that for most areas of the world the experience of imperial rule offered the only way to the future. This begs many questions. Why, for example, should one assume that eighteenth-century India could not have evolved its own economic path, with distributions of capital, labour and goods ‘optimal’ in the eyes of its own elites however different from the criteria of liberal western political economists? The work of regional historians gives grounds for disputing such an assumption, and thus for questioning perceptions of backwardness and modernity conditioned in the west, but Ferguson does not pay it any attention.
 
Andrew Porter, King's College  http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/325
 
The link should illustrate other invidious thematic assumptions. But let us dwell on some salient misrepresentations generated by our own forum participants. There is this bit about the Spanish bringing slavery to Jamaica (with all of its implications in terms of the good old plantation). Hey folks, Columbus reached Jamaica at the close of the 15th century and in 1611, discounting the surviving Tainos, the island had a population of 400 vecinos (1,200 to 1,400 residents of European origin), 107 Negros (free Blacks) and just 558 esclavos (slaves). These were not exploting sugar at all and the principal activity was subsistence farming and livestock (pigs and cattle). Little had changed by the time the English arrived in 1655 and took Jamaica as consolation for getting the pants beat off of them on Hispaniola but even that process was more than complicated [the Spanish governor Arnaldo de Isasi conducted guerrilla warfare for some 5 years--look up Juan de Bolas and then maroons].
 
Anyway, History is in the details and if Ferguson gave short shrift to such in the book, a visual medium will be even more superficial. An interesting follow-up in the realm of Alternative History: What if the United States had not "saved" Britain's chops in the 1940s and instead the industrial power had been Brazil? Far fetched, naturally, but all of this talk about Britain is made possible solely by the rays of the American sun...


Edited by drgonzaga - 21 Jan 2011 at 04:24
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 07:08
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Anyway, History is in the details and if Ferguson gave short shrift to such in the book, a visual medium will be even more superficial. An interesting follow-up in the realm of Alternative History: What if the United States had not "saved" Britain's chops in the 1940s and instead the industrial power had been Brazil? Far fetched, naturally, but all of this talk about Britain is made possible solely by the rays of the American sun...
Which was originally illuminated by the British one. Which incidentally even in setting got America out of the deep financial troubles it had gotten itself into.
 
Anyway that's driving away from the theme I was interested in, which is the applicability of catastrophe theory and chaos theory and complex systems in general to the careers of 'empires'.
 
I'm not going to get driven off topic by hyperbole about the US's belated role in ww2. This was posted to Economic and Social History for a reason.


Edited by gcle2003 - 21 Jan 2011 at 07:09
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 08:28
Application of Chaos Theory [shades of the butterfly effect] would depend entirely upon premising that the prevalent ethos in human behavior favors the chaotic, which of course makes nonsense of societal development and the distaste for the anarchical. Even worse, Catastrophe Theory and its dependance upon bifurcation, presupposes that all systems seek the equilibrium of stability and within the context of History, where the fulcrum? The qualitative and quantitative premised upon the necessity for change premised upon the unpredictable (catatrophe or otherwise) is not necessarily a given with respect to human behavior and systemic reaction. Would one consider the Rome of the tetrarchs that of the Principate, or was it all ritual despite the distinct change in form?  Anyway, the supposition that empires in and of themselves constitute a whole apart from any and all entities with which they coexist or compete is unsustainable. Frankly life itself is always teetering on the edge of chaos and reaction is not exactly instantaneous even there. Which of course brings to mind an interesting book edited by David Armitage back in 1998: Theories of Empire: 1450-1800 [I wish I had bought the book back then rather that reviewing and keeping the proof, for it now sells for $180 a pop]. It contains an interesting narrative on "imperial theories" from Ancient Rome to the 18th century...but all in all does not each empire in its wake always consider itself the best and greatest of all that went before. I always keep in mind that that fancy Victorian motto on "the sun never sets etcetera" was "borrowed" from Spanish imagery in the age of Philip II!
 
Now as for forsaking History itself for the service of the mathematical and the abstract...well I would gladly leave that field to the mathematically abstract.


Edited by drgonzaga - 21 Jan 2011 at 08:29
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 10:01
"Would the world be Britishhhh or would it be French", said the speaker...

What a clown!!! This is the best Britishhhh comedian since Benny Hill.LOL




Edited by pinguin - 21 Jan 2011 at 10:02
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 10:23
HA HA HA. This guy is so funny. LOL

"Spanish would have plundered India.... British, of course, did it different"

What a retarded.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 11:02
At least here the speaker got serious. Here explain how racist was the British Empire from the beginnings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07r9_NkVfGM&feature=related

Back to Top
King Kang of Mu View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
(Foot)Balling DJ from da Eastside

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1408
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 11:55
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Anyway that's driving away from the theme I was interested in, which is the applicability of catastrophe theory and chaos theory and complex systems in general to the careers of 'empires'.
 
I'm not going to get driven off topic by hyperbole about the US's belated role in ww2. This was posted to Economic and Social History for a reason.


i'm so sorry, gcle. it was not my intention to veer off the thread when i posted those docus.  i was offering them as more of cross reference. 

also it is important to point out that niall ferguson sees himself as economic historian least later in his career.  so his theories are rather pseudo economic theories from a historian perspective.  least that's how i see him from his docus and other talks/interviews.  also that is pretty much what he says about an hour into this lecture when he was asked about the limits of keynesianism. he says the advange of him not being an economist is that he not only studies the theories but also studies the outcome when it was applied, in this case, keynesianism in japan. so trying to interpret them as some sort of definitive eclectic version on history of empires is perhaps bit unfair.  of course, nationalism, racism, culture, war, slavery, genocide etc all those contributed to building an empire one way or another, also the downfall.  but studying the economical motivation and system of the empire does not necessarily mean you are ready to forgive(?) that empire on moral ground.  and i rarely see him raising an moral argument.  but that is fine.  there are plenty of other people who make the moral arguments and i like many them.
Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought.

Milan Kundera
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 23:21
Originally posted by King Kang of Mu King Kang of Mu wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Anyway that's driving away from the theme I was interested in, which is the applicability of catastrophe theory and chaos theory and complex systems in general to the careers of 'empires'.
 
I'm not going to get driven off topic by hyperbole about the US's belated role in ww2. This was posted to Economic and Social History for a reason.


i'm so sorry, gcle. it was not my intention to veer off the thread when i posted those docus.  i was offering them as more of cross reference. 
Wasn't your fault, Kang.
Quote
also it is important to point out that niall ferguson sees himself as economic historian least later in his career.  so his theories are rather pseudo economic theories from a historian perspective.  least that's how i see him from his docus and other talks/interviews. 
Yes it's as an economic historian I'm interested in him, being focussed in that direction myself. Calling them 'economic theories' is fine; putting 'pseudo' in front seems a bit premature. In some ways I wish he hadn't referred to 'empires' (as in some ways it's a pity 'empires' is in the title of this forum) but instead to 'economic systems' or 'economic structures' or some such.
Quote
 also that is pretty much what he says about an hour into this lecture when he was asked about the limits of keynesianism. he says the advange of him not being an economist is that he not only studies the theories but also studies the outcome when it was applied, in this case, keynesianism in japan.
I think that he went off the rails somewhat there with the bit about the impossibility of continuing Keynesian stimuli for 80 years or so. No serious Keynesian economist sees such stimuli as a way of perpetually running a country: they are meant only to stem the tide, and if they don't don't reasonably quickly more effective action has to be taken (or the stimuli are used as a temporary shelter to plan other action). What's certain is that economies don't get themselves out of that kind of mess. I thought the most critical poiint in the lecture is that relying on economies finding equilibria is a potentially disastrous piece of optimism.
Quote
 so trying to interpret them as some sort of definitive eclectic version on history of empires is perhaps bit unfair.  of course, nationalism, racism, culture, war, slavery, genocide etc all those contributed to building an empire one way or another, also the downfall.  but studying the economical motivation and system of the empire does not necessarily mean you are ready to forgive(?) that empire on moral ground.  and i rarely see him raising an moral argument.  but that is fine.  there are plenty of other people who make the moral arguments and i like many them.
Yes. There's no point in worrying about the morality of subatomic physics until you underatand it. 
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 23:29
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Frankly life itself is always teetering on the edge of chaos.
That's rather the point.
Quote
Now as for forsaking History itself for the service of the mathematical and the abstract...well I would gladly leave that field to the mathematically abstract.
My position has been for a long time that the mathematical tools economists use to analyse the behaviour of economic systems are inadeqate, even today. Developing ones that help in such analysis seems to me an appropriate task for economic historians, since their validity can only be tested by comparison with what has happened in the past.
 
Economists on the whole would rather argue logically from subjective premises: so would many historians. It's such arguments that are 'abstract' and need bringing down to ground.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Joe View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 19 Jan 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 473
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2011 at 00:17
Pretty cool video I only watched the first half hour I'll have to watch the rest later but none the less informative.
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12490
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2011 at 00:27
Niall Ferguson was a principal champion of The Project for a new American Century; explicitly supporting the idea of American Imperium and that Britain should piggy back onto it.  Some of what he says does hold water, but let's not forget the man's vision is often blurred by strong nationalistic bias.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2011 at 01:12
Indeed. He is a clown.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2011 at 09:47
I continue seen this guy. Lord, it seems that in the MBAs programs they don't teach history.

Ha ha. I am having fun seen his oppinion on the U.S. independence...

"The cathastrophe of losing America" LOLLOL

"Australia ended up being a lot more loyal to Britain than prosperous America"  LOLLOL

This guy is so funny, and his accent so ridiculous I can't stop laughing.

LOL

Edited by pinguin - 22 Jan 2011 at 11:13
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2011 at 11:51
And now I am seen "The mission".... Big smile. So, the British have a mission now to Christianize Africans. Who had thought British had gotten the Jesuit missions spirit...

"Sierra Leone become the province of freedom".... (My God!)

"From the world leader in slavery to the world leader in emancipation" Confused Well, he got that right. I recognize that change was very surprising and a thing I personally admire from Britain. A little bit late, but at least they were the first colonial power that did it.

"The whole idea was to turn Africans into Christians and at the same time civilizing them" Confused
That was the justification of the Spanish colonization of the Americas ConfusedConfused
I wonder if the British had used that reasoning in the Americas in the 16th century, rather that just "inventing" it for Africa in the 19th century, how many native peoples of the Americas would had survived. Confused  This guy is making me sick Dead

Now, seen the chapter on Christianizing India! What a stupid idea! And what a lot of crimes British commited in India! Confused




Edited by pinguin - 22 Jan 2011 at 12:34
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2011 at 21:25
In the next chapter, this guy is getting more serious, revealing racism in the British Empire, particularly in Victorian times in India and Jamaica.

LOLLOL Another mistake!

This guy is so funny. He said that during the 19th century "in a matter of decades ten of thousand of African small kingdoms were turn in just 40 colonies"....
But this the funny part. He adds "Never in human history has been such redrawing of the map of a continent" ConfusedConfused

He forgot the invansion of the Americas!!! How come this guy can make such mistakes!

LOL

Edited by pinguin - 22 Jan 2011 at 21:53
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2011 at 22:24
He forgot the invansion of the Americas!!! How come this guy can make such mistakes!
Well Pinguin you should ask yourself the identical question since while carping on the hyperbole of another you do exactly the same thing over your favorite hobgoblins and more or less make the true the old Spanish aphorism cada loco con su tema [each madman has his own theme]. You quibble at his usage of terms concerning Africa and yet you do the exact same thing when it comes to the Americas!
 
And Zagros are you not being hypercritical when it comes to weltanschauung and nationalism? Not to veer into the philosophical but...nationalism is not necessarily a bias and when the term is used clarification is almost always necessary. Recently the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy updated its essay on the subject and perhaps you should give it a read:
 
 
 
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2011 at 02:50
Drgonzaga: the fun continues... LOL
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2011 at 03:05
Shall I hum a favored tune from A Little Night Music? You, Pinguin, of all people hardly have grounds to "dig" into Ferguson after all you would even edit Genesis so as to follow your schtick!
 

 5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the LORD God formed a mapuche from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living mestizo.

 8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the west, in Chile; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground--trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and this was the valley of Santiago.



Edited by drgonzaga - 23 Jan 2011 at 03:08
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.