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Endangered peoples

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 07:34
most ideas about the difference between survival or extinction for "cultures" or peoples seems to me to be based upon much belief and little evidence. We may believe "conservative" cultures may have less chances fro survival than "adaptive" (or "progressive"?) ones, but where is the evidence?
Is many ideas much about "wishfull thinking" or moralism?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 11:46
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:



All cultures exist in a state of flux rather than stasis. And this is a very good thing, as the world changes constantly and so people within must adapt to those altered circumstances.

Cultures which are overly conservative and inward looking are bound to be destroyed more readily than those which are dynamic, innovative, outward looking and prone to adapt to changing circumstances.

Cultures on the periphery (those away from the centre of control of resources and ideas) must decide on how they wish to respond to those challenges. If they fail to adequately develop a workable means of managing external pressures, then outside polities which compete for power and resources will be the ones which manage the peripheral community's response to wider changes within the environment.

Important also on this topic is the point that communities rarely make decisions as a whole, particularly in the developing world. Decision making power is more often held by hereditary elites or cliques which also wish to preserve their own privileges even at the expense of the bulk of the community they administer. It would be wrong for us to consider the welfare of these cliques to equal the welfare of the entire community they claim to represent.

Not all communities are equally vulnerable to external pressures, but all communities are faced with external pressures. The spread of Latino culture within the United States may not be as much of a radical change to the existing order as the arrival of missionaries in a remote Amazon community, but it is still an external force that requires management. Any given entity's ability to manage external pressures depends upon how successful it has been in developing its own resource base and a culture which is dynamic, flexible and responsive to the needs of its people. The United States has amassed vast resources and has developed a sophisticated and adaptable culture, and so is well placed to accommodate external cultural pressures it is faced with. The remote Amazon tribe, poor in resources and most probably with a highly inward looking and isolated culture, is less able to resist potential cultural encroachment.

Just a few thoughts.
 
Indeed different cultures or peoples have different resources, or strategies to cope with external pressure. But living in a world where small groups, like the above mentioned Amazonian tribes have difficulties to fend of intruders from outside or meet external threats (at least physically or with force), they perhaps have to use and rely to the international community (as in UN and different NGOs) to get support against intruding external forces. And some of those groups have indeed become very aware of that and is now seeking to rally support for their cause internationally. We can see this for example in the Xingu case where parts of the international community is supporting the Xingu peoples against the Brazilian governments plans to build a huge dam for hydroelectrical power. Here also human rights concerns and environmental concerns are going hand in hand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 12:23
Oh for goodness sakes Carch you bring a whole new meaning to the term "interventionist"! If you wish to talk about intruders "from the outside" with respect to Brazil, then perforce you must accept the fact that within that horizon it is you who is performing the action of intrusion! You have about as much a grasp on Brazilian realities as Toto had of Oz, but at least that dog displayed sufficient sense to smell out the Wizard! Save all that fantastic word-play for efforts to bedazzle the verbally challenged, the rest of us here are simply much too bored by your thunder to pay it any heed.
 
PS: Are you now discontented with the "option" of the Xingu thread--or for that matter other older threads you created--so much so that you abuse posting thematics.


Edited by drgonzaga - 23 Mar 2011 at 12:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 12:38
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Oh for goodness sakes Carch you bring a whole new meaning to the term "interventionist"! If you wish to talk about intruders "from the outside" with respect to Brazil, then perforce you must accept the fact that within that horizon it is you who is performing the action of intrusion! You have about as much a grasp on Brazilian realities as Toto had of Oz, but at least that dog displayed sufficient sense to smell out the Wizard! Save all that fantastic word-play for efforts to bedazzle the verbally challenged, the rest of us here are simply much too bored by your thunder to pay it any heed.
 
PS: Are you now discontented with the "option" of the Xingu thread--or for that matter other older threads you created--so much so that you abuse posting thematics.
 
Well, in todays world opression is not any more just a matter for the country where the opression takes place. The days are counted when a country could secretely dispose of the indigenous peoples that stood in the way for so called economic development. In todays world the displacemant of indigenous peoples actually attracts attention from the international community, from human rights organisations, environmental organisations and from such organisation as the UN or in the Xingu case also the Organisation of American States.


Edited by Carcharodon - 23 Mar 2011 at 12:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 14:26
Even the Swedish State continues to exercise "eminent domain" so spare us the cant, and your notion of such an old principle as nothing more than "oppression" indicates but one thing: the abandonment of common sense so as to tilt at windmills. These antic do little more than serve to discredit beforehand  those instances in which "abuse" actually takes place. Think of the moral to the tale about the boy that cried wolf and then get a grip on realities.
 
Besides your disrepect for language has now entered the realm of transgression:
 
oppression: noun, the exercise of authority or power in a cruel, burdensome, or unjust manner.
 
As it stands the only sign of oppression here is your practice on the boards because you are freely displaying the feeling of being heavily weighed down in mind and body by your fancies through endless reiterations!


Edited by drgonzaga - 23 Mar 2011 at 14:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 14:53
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Even the Swedish State continues to exercise "eminent domain" so spare us the cant, and your notion of such an old principle as nothing more than "oppression" indicates but one thing: the abandonment of common sense so as to tilt at windmills. These antic do little more than serve to discredit beforehand  those instances in which "abuse" actually takes place. Think of the moral to the tale about the boy that cried wolf and then get a grip on realities.
 
Besides your disrepect for language has now entered the realm of transgression:
 
oppression: noun, the exercise of authority or power in a cruel, burdensome, or unjust manner.
 
As it stands the only sign of oppression here is your practice on the boards because you are freely displaying the feeling of being heavily weighed down in mind and body by your fancies through endless reiterations!
 
To displace peoples, destroying their lands for economic profit and to destroy their cultures indeed is opression. But perhaps the attention and help from human rights organisations will help to save the endangered indigenous peoples.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 15:40
I am afraid, the tribe of idiots is not in danger of extinction at all. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 18:09
I don't really have a good dog in this fight, but if it is considered wrong to remove people from their "stone age" existance, in some regards sometimes described as "nasty, brutish and short", (See T. Hobbes) then I must side with their removal, and not kept as the personal Zoo of those who merely wish to study them.
 
 
But, like so many things I say, I could well be wrong.
 
Regards,
Ron


Edited by opuslola - 23 Mar 2011 at 18:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 18:25
In fact, back in the cities, many "civilized peoples" have returned to the condition of savages. Go to any dangerous neighbourhood in any city of the "civilized" world, to find out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 12:08
I don't really have a good dog in this fight, but if it is considered wrong to remove people from their "stone age" existance, in some regards sometimes described as "nasty, brutish and short", (See T. Hobbes) then I must side with their removal, and not kept as the personal Zoo of those who merely wish to study them.
 
But, like so many things I say, I could well be wrong.
 
Regards,
Ron [/quote]
 
As I said before, indigenous peoples being able to keep their own land and to keep their cultural identity and integrity helps them to not end up in the slums of the third world where they indeed would live a "nasty, brutish and short" life with immense social problems, with prostitution, drugs, criminality and a lot of violence. There you can find the real brutish lives.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 15:43
Repeating your mantra of Swedish prejudices, again?
You don't have idea what is poverty in your rich Sweden. Please, don't propagate your vision of rich children to poor places.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 11:39
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Repeating your mantra of Swedish prejudices, again?
You don't have idea what is poverty in your rich Sweden. Please, don't propagate your vision of rich children to poor places.
 

Poverty exists everywhere, even if Sweden has no real equvalent to the worst slums of Latin america.

Concerning the Latin American slums: it is a crime to try to assimilate the Amerindians into such hell holes, at the same time as their own lands are stolen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 13:43
Even the worst South American slums are better than die in the jungle at 20.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 13:49
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Even the worst South American slums are better than die in the jungle at 20.
 
Hardly, since many in the slums do not even reach 20 before they are murdered in some gang war or shot by the police, or killed by some rapist, or killed in some other of the gruesome ways that are to common in the slums.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 14:27
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

.. 
Hardly, since many in the slums do not even reach 20 before they are murdered in some gang war or shot by the police, or killed by some rapist, or killed in some other of the gruesome ways that are to common in the slums.


Stop watching so much TV. If people move from the jungle to the countryside, and from the countryside to the cities, is because there life is better. People move were they improve theirs standard of living.

The rest, it is only idealism.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 14:39
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Stop watching so much TV. If people move from the jungle to the countryside, and from the countryside to the cities, is because there life is better. People move were they improve theirs standard of living.

The rest, it is only idealism.
 
All native Americans do not want to leave their land and their homes. But some are forced to do so because invaders steal their land and displace them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 15:12
Get concern about the sterilization of the Sami people, and the permanent racism in Sweden..
We will worry about our humanitarian problems and our peoples.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 15:54
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Get concern about the sterilization of the Sami people, and the permanent racism in Sweden..
We will worry about our humanitarian problems and our peoples.
 
Today there are no more strerilisations of Sami people. Fortunately that era is over (even if there are still some issues about land between Samis and Swedish authorities and landowners).
 
But, in todays connected world people worry also about issues outside the borders of their own country. And that pattern will probably increase more and more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 19:32
Allow free transit of people accross all the borders, and then we could start to talk about a worldwide human kind. Otherwise, stay in your piece of land where you belong and don't bother others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kirghiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 22:08
Do Pinguins consider endangered?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 01:04
Nope. At least, not the Humbolt Pinguin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 13:22
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Allow free transit of people accross all the borders, and then we could start to talk about a worldwide human kind. Otherwise, stay in your piece of land where you belong and don't bother others.
 
Already many people move across borders around the world. The world are changing. Also with the aid of modern communication technology people become more and more aware about what happens in other parts of the world, and at least some react when they see injustice, violation of human rights and exploitation. It becomes harder and harder to hide violations of human rights, destruction of the environment or other destructive activities.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 14:42
Why, Carch how humanitarian of you...one would conclude from your usual scientism approach you would understand the consequences entailed by "survival of the fittest"! Yes, it's a smarmy remark but as with your bit about biodiversity you belabour everything into oblivion. Why not accept the fact that "endangered peoples" essentially consist of those who just will not cross the street with the traffic lights! 

Edited by drgonzaga - 26 Mar 2011 at 14:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 14:45
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Why, Carch how humaniarian of you...one would conclude from your usual scientism approach you would understand the consequences entailed by "survival of the fittest"! Yes, it's a smarmy remark but as with your bit about biodiversity you belabour everything into oblivion. Why not accept the fact that "endangered peoples" essentially consist of those who just will not cross the street with the traffic lights! 
 
Well, variety is also an important factor for survival. By obliterating the cultural variety and adaption to different environments we accelerate our own demise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 14:53
What "cultural variety", the joys of the paleolithic?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 15:32

Cultural variety actually increases our chanses of survival in the long run.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 16:27
Please give up employing such inanities while defending the misapplication of terms for the sake of your propaganda. Turning human beings into "wards" of the "enlightened" as you pretend is scarcely different from the logic of the missionaries you are always lambasting. At least these last are attempting integration into modernity while you keep muttering about the joys of cultural marginalization and the pretense that such ensures survival akin to a script from the latest doomsday fantasy from Hollywood. Don't you realize just how cinematic your scenarios really are?

Edited by drgonzaga - 27 Mar 2011 at 17:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2011 at 00:26
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Cultural variety actually increases our chanses of survival in the long run.



How naive.
The Neanderthal culture didn't help those poor guys to survive at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 00:31
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Cultural variety actually increases our chanses of survival in the long run.



What makes you say that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 11:28
The more strategies, options, way of thinkings, practices, techniques, and sets of knowledge we have the bigger chance to survive or cope with crisis, catastrophes and changes.
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