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Endangered peoples

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 13:53
You are wrong. HIV don't come from modern civilization but from the tribal peoples of the jungles of Africa.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 16:13
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You are wrong. HIV don't come from modern civilization but from the tribal peoples of the jungles of Africa.
 
It did get spread by modern civilization, both within Africa and to all other continents.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 16:41
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

What I am looking for is hard evidence that a tribal existence is superior to one in the developed world. I want figures for life expectancy, infant and child mortality rates, blindness, deaths from preventable disease, deaths through childbirth, rates of suicide. I want all that in the form of hard statistical data that I can compare with hard statistical data from developed nations. Until you do that, the point you are making remains unconvincing.

Most of the things (except suicide) have nothing to do with mental health which was the thing I talked most about. If you read some ethnographic records from so calleed primitive, tribal societies you see not much about suicide, drugs, prostitution, crime.

About other, physical illnesses like diabetes, obesity, heart failure, stroke, cancer and similar it is actually well known that they are not so rampant in traditional, tribal societies. Many of these health problems comes with the modern civilisation. Also veneric diseases (for example HIV), tooth problems and malnutrition can come as results of contact.
This is why pre-contact tribespeople live so much longer lives and are so disease-free, is it? Have you ever bothered to even look at mortality statistics for various populations?
The reason that diabetes, obesity, heat failure and cancer are rarer in primitive societies is because they are essentially aging diseases. Primitive people don't get them because they are already dead.


Edited by gcle2003 - 31 Mar 2011 at 16:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 16:53
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

This is why pre-contact tribespeople live so much longer lives and are so disease-free, is it? Have you ever bothered to even look at mortality statistics for various populations?
The reason that diabetes, obesity, heat failure and cancer are rarer in primitive societies is because they are essentially aging diseases. Primitive people don't get them because they are already dead.
 
Actually much of disesases as obesity, diabetes (here even children get diabetes), stroke, heart failure is diseases also connected to food, stress and other factors in our life style.
 
See for example the research of evolutionary medicine researcher Staffan Lindeberg about the effect of food and modern life style on health, and about life style and health among tribal peoples (above all in the trobriands).
 
Nobody denies that also pre contact tribes people had diseases but those diseases where often other diseases than they got after contact.
 
Also see the report from Survival that I linked to above. There they give a lot of examples of diseases brought by changes caused by contact with modern society. Even malnutrition increased in some cases after contact (the report among others mention an interesting example from Australia where one can see that a people that still live relatively traditional life style with more  hunting and gathering has a better nutritional status then Aboriginals that are more assimilated into Australian society).
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 16:59
We have many illnesses because we live LONGER.
Use your brain!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 17:04
Yes we have also age diseasesw, but that is not the only explanation of ilness. How do you as an example explain increasing  diabetes among children?
 
Maybe children are also getting old Smile
 
Otherwise I can only encourage you too to read the report I linked to.


Edited by Carcharodon - 31 Mar 2011 at 17:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 18:06
Diabetes is a genetical condition that is particularly high among Asians and Amerindians. Don't be silly. Those deseases come from pre-History.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 19:23
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

This is why pre-contact tribespeople live so much longer lives and are so disease-free, is it? Have you ever bothered to even look at mortality statistics for various populations?
The reason that diabetes, obesity, heat failure and cancer are rarer in primitive societies is because they are essentially aging diseases. Primitive people don't get them because they are already dead.
 
Actually much of disesases as obesity, diabetes (here even children get diabetes), stroke, heart failure is diseases also connected to food, stress and other factors in our life style.
There are three diseases called 'diabetes': 'insipidus' and two kinds of 'mellitus'. The first is a rare genetic condition which can hit anywhere, mellitus 1 is also inherited (and therefore children suffer from it, but they don't 'get' it, they're born wih it), and mellitus 2 is called 'adult onset' for the very good reasn that it hits people as part of the aging process. Insipidus and mellitus 1 have nothing to do with lifestyle at all, primitive or not. And mellitus 2 doesn't hit native peoples because as I said, they're usually dead before then. You don't see much senile dementia among primtives either because there's not much senility.
 
Actually you don't see many ageing diseases in young people in the modern world either.
Quote  
See for example the research of evolutionary medicine researcher Staffan Lindeberg about the effect of food and modern life style on health, and about life style and health among tribal peoples (above all in the trobriands).
 
Nobody denies that also pre contact tribes people had diseases but those diseases where often other diseases than they got after contact.
You just managed to say that pre-contact people suffered from diseases they got after rthey were contacted. Time travel?
 
Quote
Also see the report from Survival that I linked to above. There they give a lot of examples of diseases brought by changes caused by contact with modern society. Even malnutrition increased in some cases after contact (the report among others mention an interesting example from Australia where one can see that a people that still live relatively traditional life style with more  hunting and gathering has a better nutritional status then Aboriginals that are more assimilated into Australian society).
They're much more subject to the vagaries of nature. Apat from that, of course there ae diseases caused by contact with modern peoples. The point is though that there are many diseases that are controlled or eliminated by such contact. UNless you have strange religious views, it is better to get blood poisoning at 14 and have it cured by antibiotics and live on to die of a stroke in octogenarian old age, than it is to die at 14 because there was no antibiotic available.
 
That you preach al the time that people are better off having no medical protection at all than having the risk of dying of old age really boggles my mind.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 19:45
South American governments are more practical. It is quite common here to train shamans to call the doctors when they detect diseases that exceed theirs skills.
Even in Chile, in public hospitals, it is possible to ask a native shaman to give spiritual support to a patient. In fact, one of those hospitals has a native house in one of the gardens! Medical support is bring by the state, though.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2011 at 01:45
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
It did get spread by modern civilization, both within Africa and to all other continents.


But crossed between species thanks to Africans.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2011 at 06:55
Quote Also see the report from Survival that I linked to above. There they give a lot of examples of diseases brought by changes caused by contact with modern society. Even malnutrition increased in some cases after contact (the report among others mention an interesting example from Australia where one can see that a people that still live relatively traditional life style with more  hunting and gathering has a better nutritional status then Aboriginals that are more assimilated into Australian society).
Just for the record, the reason malnutritian increased was because their food & then their land was deprived of them and they were then given the three staples of the British Empire - flour, sugar and tea. It was expected that people grow their own vegitables, meat and milk to suppliment the flour sugar and tea however Aboriginal communities often failed to do so (because they had no means or knowledge to do so). Therefore they only ate these three foods, and anyone who eats that for a long period gets sick.
Supplimenting that food with get your own foods (regardless of whether they are farmed or gathered) reduces the malnutritian.
 
In modern Australia, many Aboriginies are still on the flour-sugar-tea diet, and that may contribute to increased malnutritian statistics, however if you look at ones that aren't - particularly people who are living in cities and are highly integrated - you won't see malnutritian.
 
Even if you look at early times, Aboriginal food sources occasionally failed due to entirely natural reasons which would have led to starvation. If this was post contact, you'd often see the relavent government or a church give them flour-sugar-tea rations so they wouldn't starve.
 
Aboriginals on traditional diet are recorded as having excellent teeth though, I'll grant you that point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2011 at 11:37

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Just for the record, the reason malnutritian increased was because their food & then their land was deprived of them and they were then given the three staples of the British Empire - flour, sugar and tea. It was expected that people grow their own vegitables, meat and milk to suppliment the flour sugar and tea however Aboriginal communities often failed to do so (because they had no means or knowledge to do so). Therefore they only ate these three foods, and anyone who eats that for a long period gets sick.

 

Well, that is one of the points one can make, that an altered socioeconomic situation, a changed way of living and a loss of traditional subsistence too often leads to a dependence of the outside world with new foods and ways of life, which often can not measure up to their old ways of living, concerning nutrition, health situation, excercise and mental status.

 

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Supplimenting that food with get your own foods (regardless of whether they are farmed or gathered) reduces the malnutritian.

 

Well, still the diet of hunter gatherers are (in suffient amount) contains a lot of nutrients and vitamins, contains less harmful fat and are often more healthy than much of the stuff it is replaced with. So a changed diet can indeed contribute to different health problems, together with other factors.

 

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

  Even if you look at early times, Aboriginal food sources occasionally failed due to entirely natural reasons which would have led to starvation. If this was post contact, you'd often see the relavent government or a church give them flour-sugar-tea rations so they wouldn't starve.

 

Often hunter gatherers adapt to failing food sources by moving and they also have a buffert against such problems because they use a broad spectrum of foods; if some animal are missing they can eat plants, if that is missing they can fish, if that is failing they can eat insects and so on. But sometimes nature ofcourse can be harsh and problems can arise. One can still observe though that hunting gathering often is less vulnerable than farming. One can as an example notice when there is drought in parts of Tanzania where the hunter gatherers of the Hadza people live, they often are approached by neighbouring farmers whos food supply is shrinking and asked if they can sell some meat or other nature foodstuff to them. And it seems that the Hadza most offten can comply with that.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2011 at 11:51
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

There are three diseases called 'diabetes': 'insipidus' and two kinds of 'mellitus'. The first is a rare genetic condition which can hit anywhere, mellitus 1 is also inherited (and therefore children suffer from it, but they don't 'get' it, they're born wih it), and mellitus 2 is called 'adult onset' for the very good reasn that it hits people as part of the aging process. Insipidus and mellitus 1 have nothing to do with lifestyle at all, primitive or not. And mellitus 2 doesn't hit native peoples because as I said, they're usually dead before then. You don't see much senile dementia among primtives either because there's not much senility.
 
You simplify matters to much. Obesity and diabetes (type 2) actually increases also among younger people when some aboriginal people change their diet. And even younger individuals here in our own western countries are getting hit by the type of diabetes that comes from life style and diet. Also type 1 diabetes increase among children probably because of different growth pattern among them caused by diet, which can can make insulin production inadequate in relation to body sise.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

You just managed to say that pre-contact people suffered from diseases they got after rthey were contacted. Time travel?
 
 
No I said that precontact peoples diseases where different than post contact diseases.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

That you preach al the time that people are better off having no medical protection at all than having the risk of dying of old age really boggles my mind.
 
 
Actually I do not say that anyone shall be denied medical health care. But medical health care do not exclude a healthy, natural life style with less stress, healthier food and less social problems. One ought to be able to combine the best elements from two worlds.


Edited by Carcharodon - 01 Apr 2011 at 11:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2011 at 14:04
"Natural" lifestyle? Ha Ha.
Having worms all over the stomach, insects that carry malaria and other diseases, bugs that make nests for theirs eggs under the skin, poisonous serpents, half the plants carrying poisons, alergies, short lives. What a wonderful nature. Ha ha.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2011 at 14:18
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

"Natural" lifestyle? Ha Ha.
Having worms all over the stomach, insects that carry malaria and other diseases, bugs that make nests for theirs eggs under the skin, poisonous serpents, half the plants carrying poisons, alergies, short lives. What a wonderful nature. Ha ha.
 
Every lifestyle has its risks: as for example being run over by cars, being mugged or even murdered by gangs, being stressed to the brink of heart attack, eating food that gives you stroke, diabetes or heart failure, being slowly poisoned by toxic chemicals, breeding in a lot of toxic smoke. Civilisation is also wonderful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2011 at 15:05
"Every lifestyle has its risks" .... HA HA.

The risk is measured by the life expectancy... Just compare the figures and see how well it does the "natural" lifestyle. Ha Ha!!!


Edited by pinguin - 01 Apr 2011 at 15:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2011 at 15:29
Carch stay out of the domain of the medical unless you wish to continue in the role of Forum Clown. You wrote:
 
You simplify matters to much. Obesity and diabetes (type 2) actually increases also among younger people when some aboriginal people change their diet. And even younger individuals here in our own western countries are getting hit by the type of diabetes that comes from life style and diet. Also type 1 diabetes increase among children probably because of different growth pattern among them caused by diet, which can can make insulin production inadequate in relation to body size.
 
Perhaps you should read this summation:
 
 
Now if you do not realize that you are the fount of simplification then all efforts at resolving the flow of ridiculous rhetoric are doomed to failure.
 
Even Bing (the search engine not the late crooner) knows better:
 
 
The Finns are notorious for the prevalence of Type I diabetes hence under your logic this must be a product of Swedish "imperialism" and exploitation!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2011 at 20:32
Much f the US material doesn't seem to square with what my doctors have told me here. It would seem that there is an irresistable desire for doctors in various places to ruch to diagnose diabetes mellitus 2 in cases where the only actual problem is high blood sugar. For instance, blurred vision and high blood pressure may simply result from eating too much sugar even if diabetes is not present.
 
I suspect that many of the cases diagnosed as type 2 diabetes are in fact merely caused by too much sugar (i.e. not an insulin deficiency at all). Often it is cured by simply eating less sugar.
 
Not that too high blood sugar is not a problem myself, it is. But it blurs the statistics to classify it automatically as type 2 (or any other kind) of diabetes.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2011 at 20:56
Unlike Carch., I have never tried "breeding in a lot of toxic smoke."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2011 at 20:57
I would tend to agree with your observation G given the fact that imbalances in the body will produce certain conditions that would generate false diagnoses and the "pushing" of medication. However, such has always been the bane of medical practice. On my paternal side diabetes was a reality in terms of genetics, but fortunately it only surfaced in my father late in life as Type 2 (as a function of the immune system) and as of this date it has not entered my experience at all despite all of the Perugini chocolates!


Edited by drgonzaga - 02 Apr 2011 at 03:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 01:20
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

Unlike Carch., I have never tried "breeding in a lot of toxic smoke."

Regards,
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LOL...
So, have you ever tried Ayahuasca? Or, at least, Castro's habanos? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 04:03
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

Unlike Carch., I have never tried "breeding in a lot of toxic smoke."

Regards,
Ron
 
It is bad form to criticize such "blunders" in a non-native speaker specially if the meaning intended is clear: breathing/breeding. I for one do not believe such a source for humor specially in view of the party who got "a rise" from such tom-foolery. I doubt he would be appreciative if someone took red pen to his malapropisms.


Edited by drgonzaga - 02 Apr 2011 at 04:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 11:44
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Carch stay out of the domain of the medical unless you wish to continue in the role of Forum Clown. You wrote:
 
You simplify matters to much. Obesity and diabetes (type 2) actually increases also among younger people when some aboriginal people change their diet. And even younger individuals here in our own western countries are getting hit by the type of diabetes that comes from life style and diet. Also type 1 diabetes increase among children probably because of different growth pattern among them caused by diet, which can can make insulin production inadequate in relation to body size. 
 
Perhaps you should read this summation
 
well, the information I wrote above comes from a doctor that I discussed this things with personally. I believe more in him than some source on the net. The lack of insulin in type 1 cases can indeed come, among other things, from to much growth (caused by diet) in relation to production of insulin.  
 
And do not forget that diabetes is just one of a several ilnesses and problems that increases among so called primitive peoples when they get in contact with the so called modern civilisation.
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 02 Apr 2011 at 11:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 13:19
Yes. Before primitive peoples got in contact with civilization they hardly eat. Hungry was widespread as you well know. Life was rude, and people lived in average no more than 20 years. That's why old people were seen as some sort of myracle.
Now, it is very hard to get diabetes if you hardly eat.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 13:24
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Yes. Before primitive peoples got in contact with civilization they hardly eat.
 
Well, another one of your ignorant generalisations. Ofcourse they ate, otherwise they would have gone extinct a long time ago. And many indigenous people actually ate a well balanced, varied and healthy diet.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 14:23
Your ignorant idealizations are appealing.
The primitives tribal societies all over the world lived on the edge of extinction, dumb. Hungry was a matter of life. In fact, even in "civilized" places like Europe and China, hunger and pest decimated people quite often. Only after modern medicine theirs numbers started to climb.

You are so ignorant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 14:26
You continually run away from the glaringly most obvioous flaw in your observations. People in the modern world live much longer. They live much longer even than they did a century or fifty years ago.
 
It is therefore as simple and obvious as the moustache on a certain dictator's face that people in the modern world are HEALTHIER.
 
If you'd rather die of blood poisoning at 15 than die of cancer at 75 that's up to you. Most sane people would have a far different opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 14:29
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

You continually run away from the glaringly most obvioous flaw in your observations. People in the modern world live much longer. They live much longer even than they did a century or fifty years ago.
 
It is therefore as simple and obvious as the moustache on a certain dictator's face that people in the modern world are HEALTHIER.
 
If you'd rather die of blood poisoning at 15 than die of cancer at 75 that's up to you. Most sane people would have a far different opinion.
 
As I said, it depends on who in the modern world you comparing with. It is common that indigenous peoples are assimilated into the poorest ranks of society where their health situation, nutritional status and similar gets worse than when they lived as an indiependant culture.
 
Read the report I linked to above.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 14:42
It doesn't "depends"... The average people in the modern world live better than the primitives.
Even the poorest indigenous peoples in any modern society live longer than anyone in the jungles.

As the matter of fact, the Indigenous populations in the Americas are booming. And you can see how the primitives of Africa are increasing in numbers exponentially. The difference was modern medicine, particularly vaccines.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 14:52
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

It doesn't "depends"... The average people in the modern world live better than the primitives.
 
The important point that you seem to not understand, is that too many indigenous peoples are not assimilated into any average part of society but into the ranks of the poor, mostly because they have robbed of their land and property. So they are often integrated into a world of slum, social problems and health problems. That has for example been, and is common in south America. Once again, do not talk without at least having read the report I refer to above. It is about how indigenous peoples health deteroirate with the forced assimilation into modern society.


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