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Captain Vancouver View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 18:41
[QUOTE=Omar al Hashim]
Wow. China can power two India's on hydro. Most of the EU on renewables.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption[/QUOTE]
 
The chart in question suggests that there are two countries consuming significantly  more electricity than they are producing: China and India. Is this incorrect?
 
Just intuitively, the fact that China is burning coal and oil like there is no tomorrow, and is trashing its environment and polluting major cities to the point where tens of thousands are dying from the effects every year, and that protests and riots are occuring due to the scale of this destruction, and that China is contributing to global warming, flying in the face of warnings by most of the world's scientists, suggests that clean power is not exactly surging in the country.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 18:56
My question is, if and when a country finds a fuel alternative, who will it be? And which country will want the new toy most?
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Captain Vancouver View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 07:25
More evidence of China's farsighted energy policies are in this article:
 
 
 "....As Beijing orders up ever more freeways and parking lots, walking, biking, and public transit are declining. Since 1986, auto use has increased sixfold in Beijing, while bike use has dropped from nearly 60 percent of trips to just 17 percent in 2010. The congestion, air quality, and greenhouse gas impacts of this shift have been massive: Beijing remains one of the world's most polluted major cities...."
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 14:31
Sure, but that's because Chinese are still using western obsolete technology. Those Europeans didn't have any vision of future when they invented those pollution engines. Don't blame Chinese for wanting to develop.

What do you want? That only Canada be rich?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 17:28
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Sure, but that's because Chinese are still using western obsolete technology. Those Europeans didn't have any vision of future when they invented those pollution engines. Don't blame Chinese for wanting to develop.

What do you want? That only Canada be rich?

 
Technology is not the issue- China has no problem there, they have imported some of the best from the western world. The problem is ideology. China has followed the western paradigm of thinking that laying down blacktop and producing cars by the million equates with progress; that a sea of concrete topped with smog means modernity. These are ideas unchallenged in the west until recently, and ones that still have strong support in many quarters. They are making the same mistakes we did, but in China's case the stakes have changed. A billion people consuming and polluting, in a relatively crowded world, is different from a few tens of millions doing so in a world thinly peopled by are contemporary standards. We got away with it, but with potentially ten billion playing the same game, we may not.
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Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 22:48

Quote I may be off base here Omar, as I am not an engineer, but some of this doesn't seem to ad up. More input for less output? OK I guess if the input is unlimited, but not so practicle for most everything else

In order to obey the Laws of Themodynamics everything must have more energy input than output.
Unless your an astrophysicists*, you can never violate the laws of thermodynamics.

An efficiency of 80% for the conversion of electricity to hydrogen is pretty good. Your PC power supply only manages 80-90% for the conversion of AC electricity to the low voltage DC used in computer chips.


Quote Theoretically solar energy is virtually unlimited, but the fact is we have been messing about with solar panels and the like for at least 40 or so years, and still haven't got to major applications. It's fine for some household purposes, or for things like marine navigation aids (where they are used here), but have yet to make the big league. I' m sure the future will see improvements, but I think it is a huge leap of faith to simply say, it should work, so it will.

Your confusing Solar Thermal with Photovolatics.

Photovoltaics are the panels you see for marine navigation aids or roadside telephones. The generate electricity by the quantum interaction of photons (light particles) with silicon. No moving parts, extremely reliable, but expensive and low efficiency. They are unlikely to be cheap enough for large scale power generation.

Solar Thermal is a steam engine like coal or nuclear. Super-heated steam is used to drive a turbine. The coal or nuclear heating element is replaced with an array of mirrors. At large scale, I struggle to think that this could be more expensive than coal, and is certainly cheaper than nuclear.

Originally posted by CV CV wrote:

Quote Synthesising hydrogen fuel from water is half of photosynthesis. The only superior option in my opinion is to go the whole hog - synthesise hydrocarbons from CO2 and H20. This is also possible, but has not yet been done industrially (unlike hydrogen, which is very developed).

Theoretically, I suppose we should be able to change lead into gold, but in fact this hasn't happened yet (as far as I know).


Yes. We have changed Lead into Gold. It's just pointless and expensive so has only been done to show it can be.
Lead into Gold is an atomic transformation that never happens in nature (outside suns at least). Changing C02 and H20 into hydrocarbons (sugars) is a chemical reaction that happens in every plant. The former is difficult and pointless, the latter is achievable and of huge benefit.

The only problem with burning oil is that we are not replenishing the fuel. If we made as many sugars/oil as we burnt (like all life does) it would be completely sustainable. Life is a carbon based economy.

Quote

A quote from your own link. The other link you posted suggested a "clean" energy proportion of about 11%, a figure fairly close to that of the US.


It depends on what year the stats came from (China was/is adding about 100GW a year), and whether you counted Hydro (I do) and Nuclear (I don't) as "clean".

I believe the CCP figures. The price spike and huff & puff over the rare-earth metals used in Wind Turbines alone tells me that China is building a lot of Wind power!

Quote The chart in question suggests that there are two countries consuming significantly  more electricity than they are producing: China and India. Is this incorrect?

Yeah...
One wonders how that is possible. It does say energy and not electricity. So maybe it counts coal imports? But then you'd expect countries like Canada, Saudi and Aus to be producing far more than they consume. I don't understand that graph.


*The expansion of the universe blows them to shreads.



Edited by Omar al Hashim - 15 Aug 2012 at 22:52
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pinguin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 05:15
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 
Technology is not the issue- China has no problem there, they have imported some of the best from the western world. The problem is ideology. China has followed the western paradigm of thinking that laying down blacktop and producing cars by the million equates with progress; that a sea of concrete topped with smog means modernity. These are ideas unchallenged in the west until recently, and ones that still have strong support in many quarters. They are making the same mistakes we did, but in China's case the stakes have changed. A billion people consuming and polluting, in a relatively crowded world, is different from a few tens of millions doing so in a world thinly peopled by are contemporary standards. We got away with it, but with potentially ten billion playing the same game, we may not.


Sorry man, but from a small and powerless country like Canada, you can't do anything to stop the Chinese or lecture them, but just watch what decisions they are going to take.
But, besides being 1.4 billion people, Chinese has show along history they are a very creative people, so, unlike yourself, I am not so worry about them.
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