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Europeans: what they brought to the Americas?

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pinguin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2011 at 21:53
Irrelevant. Block printing was easier to print chinese that movable type.

Look at your own source:

888 The Diamond Sutra, a Buddhist scripture, was the first dated example of block printing.
1041 Bi Sheng in China invented movable clay type
1423 Europeans use xylography (art of engraving on wood, block printing) to produce books.
1440 Gutenberg completed his wooden press which used movable metal type.

Chinese were using block printing since 888 AD, at least, to mass produce papers, books, bills, cards and everything else. This was 6 centuries before the famous Gutenberg. By 1423 Europeans were also printing books with xylography, and that was 20 years before Gutenberg, too.



Edited by pinguin - 05 Aug 2011 at 21:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2011 at 01:57
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Irrelevant. Block printing was easier to print chinese that movable type.

Look at your own source:

888 The Diamond Sutra, a Buddhist scripture, was the first dated example of block printing.
1041 Bi Sheng in China invented movable clay type
1423 Europeans use xylography (art of engraving on wood, block printing) to produce books.
1440 Gutenberg completed his wooden press which used movable metal type.

Chinese were using block printing since 888 AD, at least, to mass produce papers, books, bills, cards and everything else. This was 6 centuries before the famous Gutenberg. By 1423 Europeans were also printing books with xylography, and that was 20 years before Gutenberg, too.
 
Either you need new reading glasses Pinguin or your reading comprehension fails you when you attempt English.
 
You obviously do not grasp the problems of incising wood with Chinese characters and then the actual numbers of copies those blocks can produce before they simply become blots; hence, cease all of this nonsense over "mass production". Further "block" printing was done in Europe on fabrics long before the 15th century. But, like a child emanoured of his rubber ducky, you are intent on having this one keep you company in that vat of ink you are splashing so as to play Peck's Bad Boy. The link I posted explains in detail why you are wrong while at the same time giving a proper historical perspective so quit all the jiggling it's not becoming until someone finally turns you into flapper's boa! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote bagrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2011 at 12:22
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Wait for a while. Northern Europe is becomming muslim now. I bet in a couple of centuries, when all women in Europe walk under burkas,Wink you'll miss christianity.
 
Now, let me think a moment, where have I heard this dross before? Wasn't there something up in Norway, where this argument was used ... for something?
Can't remember!
 
I don't even want to talk about the demographic, I presume that was what you were referring to, impossibilities, but this whole argument proposes that 1. Isalm is a monolithic, and as you describe it, fundamentalist belief system and 2. that it will not, as other religions did, grow into a rather nominal faith, based on cultural traditions rather than on adherence to doctrinal beliefs.
Haven't the recent and current secular developments in the Arabic states demonstrated that fundamentalism is and was always nothing more than a minority view in Islam, and that it is on its way out as a political factor?
 
Believe me: eternity in the company of Beelzebub, and all his hellish instruments of death, will be a picnic compared to five minutes with me... and this pencil...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2011 at 14:01
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


Either you need new reading glasses Pinguin or your reading comprehension fails you when you attempt English.


No amount of retoric can hide the fact that you have a problem with logic.

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


You obviously do not grasp the problems of incising wood with Chinese characters and then the actual numbers of copies those blocks can produce before they simply become blots; hence, cease all of this nonsense over "mass production".


For instance, that deduction is absurd.
You can continue with all the absurd pseudo-funny and pseudo-reasoned bashing which is yours style. But the simple fact is you, doc JUMP to conclusions.

Let me put you in evidence.

(1) Do you know HOW MANY copies of block printed books circulated in China, centuries before Gutemberg?

(2) Do you know the techniques Chinese used to mass produce books?

Yours mistake was to assume Chinese used "wood" to print large runs of books or bills. In fact, wood xerigraphy was used to print delicate things, such as on silk.

Remember, Chinese were mass printing bills at that time, and that's heavy duty work. They also had, in same temples, stones where students could put ink and press a paper on it to take a copies of the books required for the imperial exams. That's a early ancestor of the photocopy LOL

(3) For large runs, Chinese used stones! That's what you didn't know.



Just imagine how many copies of the I Ching or the Tao Te King you can print using stones!






Edited by pinguin - 06 Aug 2011 at 14:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2011 at 14:12
Originally posted by bagrat bagrat wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Wait for a while. Northern Europe is becomming muslim now. I bet in a couple of centuries, when all women in Europe walk under burkas,Wink you'll miss christianity.
 
Now, let me think a moment, where have I heard this dross before? Wasn't there something up in Norway, where this argument was used ... for something?
Can't remember!
 
I don't even want to talk about the demographic, I presume that was what you were referring to, impossibilities, but this whole argument proposes that 1. Isalm is a monolithic, and as you describe it, fundamentalist belief system and 2. that it will not, as other religions did, grow into a rather nominal faith, based on cultural traditions rather than on adherence to doctrinal beliefs.
Haven't the recent and current secular developments in the Arabic states demonstrated that fundamentalism is and was always nothing more than a minority view in Islam, and that it is on its way out as a political factor?


It may be, but I bet Carcha undestand the argument very well. He assumes that Christianity destroyed the pristine society of the Norse. Remember? That of the Runes, beautiful art and poetry, the Viking pirates and human sacrifices. According to him Christianity not only destroyed theirs culture, but that of the Native Americans as well, and anywhere Christianity went, it destroyed those cultures.

I know that Islam is not a monolythic culture, and I also know that certain primitive and pagan cultures were absorved into Islam, and are those what are causing problems in the West. For instance, women discrimination, Burkas and female circumcition are all of them pre-Islamic custums.
However, the muslims that migrate to Europe and that bring shocking customs come mainly from backward regions where people has low level of education, such as Afganistan or Somalia.  And certainly, mentioning them to some Europeans is likely to scare them a lot. It is the classical encouter between the civilized and the rustic, and I don't think Islam has much to do with it at all.

In fact, as Hispanic, we have a lot of knowledge about Middle Ages' Islam in Iberia, and we have learn to appreciate the possitives of it, but at the same time, we know not all the muslims have the same degree of education. It is quite difficult to compare a Westernized Turk with a Pakistani fundamentalist, or an upper class Arab with a backwards nomade of the deserts of Africa or Asia. But for Europeans, Muslims are the new menace, so I just played with Carcha.

That's why I used them to scare Carcha, trying to say: "Don't blame so much Christians that It could be worst".











Edited by pinguin - 06 Aug 2011 at 14:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2011 at 16:42
You are ludicrous, Pinguin, since you do not grasp what is meant by Mass Production and one must wonder how you visualize thousands of stone wielding peasants busy at printing currecy! Of course, by now everyone has to be accustomed to the hilarious hyperbole that is your hallmark. Just think "China" and then distinguish between plates...Noritake anyone?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2011 at 17:02
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

You are ludicrous, Pinguin, since you do not grasp what is meant by Mass Production and one must wonder how you visualize thousands of stone wielding peasants busy at printing currecy! Of course, by now everyone has to be accustomed to the hilarious hyperbole that is your hallmark. Just think "China" and then distinguish between plates...Noritake anyone?


Please, try to apply logic instead of retoric. Of course, Chinese mass printed bills and books such as the I Ching centuries before Europeans. It is pathetic you try to give Gutenberg the merit of mass producing books, when it is known Chinese made it first. Of course, it is just your eurocentrism which blinds you.

What's next? Saying that Bacon invented gunpowder? LOL

I am amazed you can't understand quite simple thing. I child would do better.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2011 at 19:28
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

You are ludicrous, Pinguin, since you do not grasp what is meant by Mass Production and one must wonder how you visualize thousands of stone wielding peasants busy at printing currecy! Of course, by now everyone has to be accustomed to the hilarious hyperbole that is your hallmark. Just think "China" and then distinguish between plates...Noritake anyone?


Please, try to apply logic instead of retoric. Of course, Chinese mass printed bills and books such as the I Ching centuries before Europeans. It is pathetic you try to give Gutenberg the merit of mass producing books, when it is known Chinese made it first. Of course, it is just your eurocentrism which blinds you.

What's next? Saying that Bacon invented gunpowder? LOL

I am amazed you can't understand quite simple thing. I child would do better.
 
You are hopeless! It's as if you inhabit your own Wonderland and fashion definitions for the sake of pubescent stroking! Your logic is jabberwocky and boy can you jabber on and on and on over the silliest nonsense as you demand that terms with fixed meanings must conform to your absurdities.
 
Go sell the Chinese some copper they're in need of the metal for the making of photogravure plates...and while you are at it print out a few propaganda broadsides proclaiming the Death of Communism through Communications!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2011 at 20:11
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
You are hopeless! It's as if you inhabit your own Wonderland and fashion definitions for the sake of pubescent stroking! Your logic is jabberwocky and boy can you jabber on and on and on over the silliest nonsense as you demand that terms with fixed meanings must conform to your absurdities.


And you never give up, Mr. Always-Right! LOL

 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
Go sell the Chinese some copper they're in need of the metal for the making of photogravure plates...and while you are at it print out a few propaganda broadsides proclaiming the Death of Communism through Communications!


Sure, when you have no arguments you start to babbling as a small child. Mature, doc. Recognize when you are wrong, that is quite often.

Fact: Chinese mass produced books centuries before Europeans. I already shown you they used stone xylography, something you didn't think about it, which is a technique that allowed to print thousand of copies without problem. You were WRONG! Live with it.




Edited by pinguin - 06 Aug 2011 at 20:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2011 at 20:19
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Please, try to apply logic instead of retoric. Of course, Chinese mass printed bills and books such as the I Ching centuries before Europeans. It is pathetic you try to give Gutenberg the merit of mass producing books, when it is known Chinese made it first. Of course, it is just your eurocentrism which blinds you.
But applying rhetoric is all you ae doing there with your 'of course' and 'it is known'. At least drgonzaga supplied an authoritative - seeming chronology. If you're suggesting it is wrong you should provide some reasoning for it being wrong. In partixular you need to substantiate that 'mass production' of books in China. they cetainly didn't do it with block printing whether of wood tablets or metal ones (which afaik would have been in Korea anyway). They wear out too fast and it's way too cumberome to keep resetting them.
 
In fact China has always suffered from the diffiulty of learning to read the glyphs.
[/QUOTE]

What's next? Saying that Bacon invented gunpowder? LOL
[/QUOTE]
Probably not, but much more to the point, the English didn't invent ships, but they did invent the techinques of anaylsing a ship's construction on paper, which made it possible to make multiple copies of them. Americans didn't invent the car but they did invent the assembly line making it possible to mass produce them.
Quote
I am amazed you can't understand quite simple thing. I child would do better.
 
You don't appear to understand the point being made, or qat keast you don't have any argument to support you.


[/QUOTE]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2011 at 20:42
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

But applying rhetoric is all you ae doing there with your 'of course' and 'it is known'. At least drgonzaga supplied an authoritative - seeming chronology. If you're suggesting it is wrong you should provide some reasoning for it being wrong. In partixular you need to substantiate that 'mass production' of books in China. they cetainly didn't do it with block printing whether of wood tablets or metal ones (which afaik would have been in Korea anyway). They wear out too fast and it's way too cumberome to keep resetting them.
 
In fact China has always suffered from the diffiulty of learning to read the glyphs.


But learning ideograms is not the point. Yes, they have always suffering from the difficulties of reading, but by the 12th century millons of Chinese read.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


Probably not, but much more to the point, the English didn't invent ships, but they did invent the techinques of anaylsing a ship's construction on paper, which made it possible to make multiple copies of them. Americans didn't invent the car but they did invent the assembly line making it possible to mass produce them.


Sure, but this is not the same case with printing. The doctor seemed to believe there was a relation between movable types and mass producing books. That maybe correct in the West, but not in China. The doc believed Chineses only had wood xylography, which of course is not enough to print large numbers of books. But Chinese resorted to stone xylography to print the classics and other mass produced works.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


You don't appear to understand the point being made, or qat keast you don't have any argument to support you.


I do understand.

Now, with respect to sources, you can follow this link. Here you will find out that mass produced prints were done very early in China.

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab78





Edited by pinguin - 06 Aug 2011 at 20:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pelantaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2011 at 01:19

Don’t forget that European brought to the Americas, includes: capitalism, western political ideas, (such a predatory individualism) and Christianity. Most destructive of all they brought disease that ravages the Indians, one of the main reasons of the defeat of the Indians in the America, was disease smallpox killed the native population.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2011 at 01:28
Yes, smallpox affected the native population, but not enough to defeat it. Mapuches, for instance, lost a large part of theirs population, but recovered and continue fighting, up to the time the invader received a kick in the butt. The irony is that the descendants of the own Spaniards that conquered Chile defeated the evil empire, ruled by the cross and the silver coin, by profit and foundamentalism.

Today savage capitalism is under control, but we still has to get rid of Christianity. That's a long way to go. Wink


Edited by pinguin - 07 Aug 2011 at 01:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2011 at 05:22
At last we get to the crux of the matter and it is the sama yada yada, courtesy of the Penguinated iceberg that freezes all into the outre mind-set of the ideologue crystallizing his favored sugary sop. Earlier he had produced a link about his Chinese fixation that spent more time emphasizing the intricacies of Gutenberg and underscoring the major differences in his refinements with all that went before yet he used it as a substantive to his fantasy over mass production. Well he could always angle for a position in the propaganda division of the Chines embassy in Chile, were it not for the fact that the Chinese woukd be a bit queasy about his logic.
What did the "Europeans" bring to the Americas? In a brief word: Integration--a crash course on modernity and the absorption of the isolated onto the world stage. All else is but simple verbiage emphasizing current political blather expressed entirely in the languages and ideologies of the West. Pretty soon we will have the Penguin emphasizing the need to "return" to Pachamama and subsistence agrarianism...perhaps by then he will have made peace with Carch, the post above certainly provides a hint to that outcome!

Edited by drgonzaga - 08 Aug 2011 at 15:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2011 at 06:35
Gutenberg refinaments could be cute, but that matters to the history of Europe only, given that China was centuries ahead of the West in mass producing printing books. You can still light candles to St. Gutenberg if you wish, but you haven't link his inventions to mass production of books, but in Europe. Anyways, that was another topic, given the fact European printing presses were very few in the Americas, for centuries, and the impact of that invention happened very late in the region.

I already mentioned a list of the things, I believe, Europeans brought to the Americas. If you didn't read it, I will copy it at the end of this post.

With respect to "integration", in a certain sense that's true. However, the price payed for that kind of integration was too high. Integration under the boot was what happened in the Americas. Anyways, that was not the topic. The contributions of the Europeans to the Americas were at least these. If you have more ideas about contributions, please extend the list.


1) New vegetables, particularly wheat and rice, that made food more available. Lettuces, onions, cabbage, grapes, olives and many other produce came from the old world as well.

(2) New animals that revolutionazed farming and transport: horse, the mule (the 4WD of ancient times) which worked harder than a llama, the cow that provided lot of meat and milk (animal milk was unknown in the Americas, together with cheese, yogurt and derivatives), the sheep, that made fiber production cheaper, the goat that produced milk and meat, and the ox which was a heavy duty animal for works that requiered force.

(3) Iron. That was the single metal that impacted the most in the Americas.

(4) Cheap paper. The European methods copied from the Chinese allowed for mass producing paper. In the Americas there was amate paper in some regions of Mesoamerica, but it was produced in small scale.

(5) The alphabet. This method of writing was a lot superior to the memorizing devices of the Iroquos wampun, or the Inca quipus, and it was also a lot simpler than Maya writing. The phonetic alphabet also allowed to transcribe native languages and therefore to record theirs tought early on.

(6) The arch. The single more important invention introduced by the Europeans in architecture it was the arch, unknown in the Americas. This allowed in colonial times the development of aqueducts following the roman model.

(7) The galeon. In the Americas there were large dugout canoes and balsa rafts driven by sails, but there wasn't anything such as the European ship technology, with complex sails and rudders. A technology that took thousand of years to develop in Eurasia and that was unknown in the Americas.

(8) The wheel. The wheel was known in Mesoamerica, but was used only in toys. The Europeans spread the use of the wheel in transport.

(9) Codified law. It was unknown in the Americas.

(10) Gunpowder. Unknown in the Americas, changed war.



Edited by pinguin - 07 Aug 2011 at 06:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 09:57
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Absolutely ridiculous. If anything the christian priests prevented a worst disaster. Your finger pointing is pathetic.

Unfortunately the missionaries contributed very much to the demise of native cultures and peoples. They were to a hight degree an integrated part of the colonialist enterprise and exploitation in the Americas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2011 at 00:19
What culture do you want to save? The priests came to save souls; not to save survival lifestyles.
The areas were they had the strongest influences were usually the more backwards, and there they founded cities, churches and schools from scratch.

They didn't replace things such important as language, though. In fact, they helped to preserve many native languages and even today the Jesuit books are a source to the past of native peoples in the region. But, of course, the hunting gathering style was changed. I wouldn't miss that.






 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UFG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2012 at 20:46

Perhaps they imagined that stopping the culture of ritual sacrifice and cannibalism to be more important than preserving the cultures in toto.  It's fair to say the effects of the Spanish civilization were a mixed bag.

Overall, it's a template for what has transpired, in large part, with the meeting of aboriginal peoples and colonizers throughout history. That's a pretty good list imo, pinquin, derails and all.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2012 at 23:26
Originally posted by UFG UFG wrote:

Perhaps they imagined that stopping the culture of ritual sacrifice and cannibalism to be more important than preserving the cultures in toto.  It's fair to say the effects of the Spanish civilization were a mixed bag.

Overall, it's a template for what has transpired, in large part, with the meeting of aboriginal peoples and colonizers throughout history. That's a pretty good list imo, pinquin, derails and all.



I can't argue against that, becouse you are right. The Spaniards buried the culture of ritual sacrifice.

In general, no matter theirs famous brutality and several crimes, the Spaniards were the Europeans that treated the Indigenous people the best. That's why Indigenous peoples are numerous in most of the Spanish Speaking countries, while in the rest they were exterminated and replaced either with Europeans or Blacks.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2012 at 18:04
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


In general, no matter theirs famous brutality and several crimes, the Spaniards were the Europeans that treated the Indigenous people the best. That's why Indigenous peoples are numerous in most of the Spanish Speaking countries, while in the rest they were exterminated and replaced either with Europeans or Blacks.


Indigenous peoples are more numerous in the Spanish speaking countries because they have always been more numerous there to begin with. Precolumbian population centers were Mesoamerica and the Andes, which also are the areas with the largest Indigenous population today.

Besides, the only country outside the Caribbean were the Indigenous people were completely wiped out was Uruguay.

Also the only indigenous kingdom that arose after 1492, the Miskito Kingdom on the Atlantic coast of Nicaragua, did so under English protection. In fact, in that part of Nicaragua even today the people identify themselves with the English and consider the Spanish/Nicaraguans to be outsiders. Belize and Guyana aren't too fond of expansionist ambitions by their Hispanophone neighbors either.

Latin America needs to understand that imperialism is not an exclusively Anglo-Saxon thing, nor is everything Anglo-Saxons do in the Americans necessarily imperialist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2012 at 01:40
Uruguay? Give me a break. Uruguayans do have Indigenous features and aspect, no matter than in a smaller proportion than in the rest of Spanish America. Also Cubans and Dominicans have quite a bit of indigenous ancestry, no matter than also in smaller proportion compared to the rest.

And the only people that identify with English in Spanish America are Blacks who descend from former slaves of the British. Those blacks english speaking minorities that are visible in Central America have never been integrated to the hispanic society, actually.

Latin America do understand that imperialism is not only an anglosaxon thing. But the fact is that the only people that keeps fooling around with imperialism TODAY are the anglosaxon!







Edited by pinguin - 21 Feb 2012 at 01:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2012 at 08:09

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  What culture do you want to save? The priests came to save souls; not to save survival lifestyles.
The areas were they had the strongest influences were usually the more backwards, and there they founded cities, churches and schools from scratch. 

The priests came as religious fanatics determined to destroy other peoples religious, ethical and cultural integrity. And much of the things they funded where in fact often nothing but glorified labor camps. That some of these slave camps developed into cities later is another matter. That often contributed even more to the demise and destruction of the indigenous population and the environment they once lived in.

And by the way, what is good with founding a church? Just some place where people are getting brainwashed into Christian superstition.

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  They didn't replace things such important as language, though. In fact, they helped to preserve many native languages and even today the Jesuit books are a source to the past of native peoples in the region. But, of course, the hunting gathering style was changed. I wouldn't miss that.

Unfortunately the missionaries also destroyed such important parts of the native cultures as art, architecture, clothes (where healthy climate adapted clothes became replaced by unhealthy clothes in the name of prudery), adornment, structure of power, social relations, relations between the sexes (which were corrupted by the sexual phobias of the church) and ofcourse the original economic structures.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2012 at 08:19
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Uruguay? Give me a break. Uruguayans do have Indigenous features and aspect, no matter than in a smaller proportion than in the rest of Spanish America. Also Cubans and Dominicans have quite a bit of indigenous ancestry, no matter than also in smaller proportion compared to the rest.
 
That some traces of native DNA have survived in Uruguay do not mean that the natives have survived as a people or that their cultures have survived. For all practical purposes the natives in Uruguay actually were exterminated.
 
Just a little reminder what happened to the Charrua people of Uruguay:

Quote Following the arrival of European settlers, the Charrúa were progressively killed by or integrated into the prevailing colonial cultures.

Most of the remaining ones were massacred at Salsipuedes (literally "Get-out-if-you-can") Creek on 11 April 1831 by a group led by Bernabé Rivera, nephew of Fructuoso Rivera who later became the first president of Uruguay. Bernabé Rivera had invited the Charrúa to a meeting, then ambushed them. Rivera's forces slew the men and enslaved the women and children. Only a few escaped this massacre. That massacre was followed four months later by another led by Rivera in Mataojo.

Four surviving Charrúas were captured at Salsipuedes. They were Senaca, a medicine man; Vaimaca-Piru, a warrior; and a young couple, Tacuabé and Guyunusa. All four were taken to Paris, France in 1833, where they were exhibited to the public. They all soon died in France, including a baby daughter born to Tacuabé and Guyunsa.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2012 at 18:00
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:



Uruguay? Give me a break. Uruguayans do have Indigenous features and aspect, no matter than in a smaller proportion than in the rest of Spanish America. Also Cubans and Dominicans have quite a bit of indigenous ancestry, no matter than also in smaller proportion compared to the rest.

If Uruguayans having Charrua ancestors means Indigenous Uruguays aren't extinct then that means there are still Visigoths in Spain.

Ethnicities are rarely wiped out physically completely. So if an ethnicity is suppressed so much that a lot of their members dy and they culture, language, political organization goes extinct then for all practical purposes that ethnicity has been exterminated.

Quote And the only people that identify with English in Spanish America are Blacks who descend from former slaves of the British. Those blacks english speaking minorities that are visible in Central America have never been integrated to the hispanic society, actually.

Of course they haven't, why should they?

Quote Latin America do understand that imperialism is not only an anglosaxon thing. But the fact is that the only people that keeps fooling around with imperialism TODAY are the anglosaxon!


So, what territories did Britain imperialistically seize in Latin America after 1833?

Even if the original capture of the Falklands in 1833 was imperialist (which is pretty much irrelevant nowadays, every modern territorial demarcation is based on some kind of imperialism, conquest or occupation if you go back long enough), wanting to keep a territory you already rule, and with the overwhelming support of its inhabitants, doesn't have anything to do with imperialism. Trying to annex a territory against the will of its inhabitants is.

Edited by Mixcoatl - 21 Feb 2012 at 18:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2012 at 18:55
Indeed, Argentina is the one being imperialist here.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2012 at 00:23
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

The priests came as religious fanatics determined to destroy (etc. etc. etc.... ) original economic structures.



Sorry. I don't argue with you anymore. You are a scratched vinyl Big smile




Edited by pinguin - 22 Feb 2012 at 00:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2012 at 00:32
Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:


If Uruguayans having Charrua ancestors means Indigenous Uruguays aren't extinct then that means there are still Visigoths in Spain.


Indeed

Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:


Ethnicities are rarely wiped out physically completely. So if an ethnicity is suppressed so much that a lot of their members dy and they culture, language, political organization goes extinct then for all practical purposes that ethnicity has been exterminated.


Exterminated means killed by violent means. The rest is stretching words. Not the Celts nor the Norse where exterminated when they become Christianized. The Celts again didn't change when other ethnic groups invaded the British isles.

Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:


Of course they haven't, why should they?


Theirs business. Who cares?

Quote Latin America do understand that imperialism is not only an anglosaxon thing. But the fact is that the only people that keeps fooling around with imperialism TODAY are the anglosaxon!


So, what territories did Britain imperialistically seize in Latin America after 1833?

Even if the original capture of the Falklands in 1833 was imperialist (which is pretty much irrelevant nowadays, every modern territorial demarcation is based on some kind of imperialism, conquest or occupation if you go back long enough), wanting to keep a territory you already rule, and with the overwhelming support of its inhabitants, doesn't have anything to do with imperialism. Trying to annex a territory against the will of its inhabitants is.[/QUOTE]

Sure. The British stopped in Latin America but the U.S. people followed the Anglosaxon destiny shortly after.

With respect to population, you got a point there, though, but the territory was legaly Argentinean when it was captured by Britain.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2012 at 01:29
The west coast of Canada saw an explosion of aboriginal culture ofter the first Euopean contact. The totem poles, ceremonial masks, ect, seen today were the product of iron tools, and did not exist in such form before contact. New food products also increased trade in the area (ie the Haida developed a long range trade in potatoes, something unknown before). After colonization, the continuous tribal wars of the region were brought to a halt, saving countless lives. This also meant the rule of law, meaning that one could wander outside their tribal territory, and not assume that their chances of being killed were fairly high.
 
As with all mass movements of people in history, there were both positive and negative aspects.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2012 at 01:35
I agree with you in your point. I lived in Saskatchewan, Canada, and I saw many Native Americans there, alive. I believe at least 10% of Canadian population is Native American, Mixed native American or has some Amerindian ancestry.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2012 at 16:21
Dose anyone know anything on the attempted Scottish colonization on Panama 
Every ideology has a kernel of truth and sea of whitewash.
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