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Evolution of China 1500-1700

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2009 at 19:57
Originally posted by tradition tradition wrote:

why could not use the word colony? chinese always called The dutch who  seizes Taiwan colonizer.In fact,chinese colonized taiwan early than dutch.do you know the man call yan si qi?taiwan is the Chinese first overseas colony which yan si qi built.and zhen chenggong is second one.before zhen,Taiwan's  inhabitant always occupies the population overwhelming superiority,zhen changed that, just like spanish kill ameirca native people.,and made the colony
 
I am always fascinated by nomenclature and its usage or misusage for that matter. This phrase specially caught my attention:"spanish kill ameirca native people.,and made the colony". In juridical and political terms, the Spanish never had a single colony in the New World. Surprise!  You'd have to search hard, to no avail, to find "colonia" as a juridical term. Yes, you would find "kingdoms" and "capitanias" (a term reserved for military frontiers), and "gobiernos", but no colonies. In fact, in terms of municipal units, self-government was the standard under the aegis of the "cabildo".
 
I am afraid that in "opening" the pages of history, the Chinese, are no less apt to play with the vocabulary than any European with a cause. Here is an example from the Internet:
 
 
Specially in such areas that deal with "foreigners":
 
 
Whatever the background (in terms of people and culture) as far as Taiwan (or to use the Portuguese word endowed on the island in the 16th century "Hermosa" or Formosa) can be assessed politically, one has to recognize that with the Qing, the island became a formal prefecture within the Chinese administrative structure in 1680, and that the subsequent century saw immigration from Fujian and Guangdong transform the ethnic composition of the island. Now, should I employ the term "colonial" for events that took place after 1895?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tradition Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2009 at 20:40

donnot play Doctrine words with me.spanish havenot made the colony in the new world?pls read the example from the Internet

The Spanish founded the first successful colony in North America at Saint Augustine in 1565. Over the next century, Spanish colonists and conquistadors seized and settled everything in the Americas from Mexico to the modern-day U.S. West and southward, with the exception of British Honduras, the Guyanas, and Brazil. In addition, the Spanish controlled Florida and much of the Caribbean.
 
 
 
 
 
you never read chinese history books,of course you donnot know, zhen chenggong bring his follow to taiwan(formosa),the population   of  han(most fujianess has overwhelming superiority than native taiwanese),you can read the former kuomingtang"s chief lian zhans'grandfather,
lianhen,wroted a book called the history of taiwan
 
 
zhenchenggong are not belong to the manchu government,but he is a chinese,he made the colony of taiwan,this is the  Chinese first overseas colony
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tradition Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2009 at 21:01
It is very simple  
 
before zhen chengong,Taiwan's native people's population surpasses the Han people, only then the minority Han people   live  in Taiwan, Taiwan does not have the ownership place
 
 
after zhen chengong,he bring many fujian guys to taiwan,the han nation"s population surpasses the native people,zhen made    Chinese administrative structure (zhen faith to ming dynasty,ming danasty is china of course),you cannot said zhen didnot belong to the manchu dynasty,so taiwan is not chinese colony,ok?
 
and after general shi attacked taiwan,qing government united taiwan,and many imigrants of han sent to taiwan,china Has implemented the complete colonial rule to Taiwan
 
 
after sino-japan war,taiwan (formosa) became japan"s colony from the chinese hand,this is taiwan"s history.
 
 
you have different explanation of the term "colony",but you are not god,i'm not,we just express our oponion. Chinese history material  in english lacks very much,if you will resarch chinese history, you should learn chinese
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2009 at 21:57
Er...tradition, you obviously did not heed my warning on the dangers of the Internet. The oldest Spanish "city" in North America is Santo Domingo de Guzman founded in 1496. Saint Augustine was established as a military garrison so as to complete the defensive perimeters of the maritime route to the Atlantic. It was always a dependency of other jurisdictions and sustained from Havana as a link in the Armada de Barlovento. There was no British Honduras in 1565, much less any "Guyanas", and "Brazil" was actually a part of the Habsburg patrimony from 1580-1640.
 
By "Chinese" history books are you making reference to current historiographical production? Or "official" state text-books? Otherwise, that statement of yours is a bit off-base given the citations already presented. What is the Ming Shi-lu, subversive capitalist literature? Whatever attributes you may wish to assign to Zheng Cheng Gong in 1661, I've been to the Wencheng Pavilion and know all the ins-and-outs of nationalistic propaganda. Besides, I somehow feel that your definition of "colony" has a lot to do with these Chinese terms: xiaoshun, xiangyue, baoliu/weihu, and xiaozhong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tradition Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 04:23
this is not my definition of "colony" ,it is many serious history book"s definition.you should read the combridge    modern history volumn3,page 186,page 517,etc .the west history use colony to describe  spanish colony in ameirca in that time,if you have ereetronic book,you can use the word colony,and search it in this book,how can say this is my defination of the colony
 
 
 
chinese propaganda always said taiwan long long ago are chinese land,this is bullsh*t,in fact,taiwan is the first overseas colony of china,just like spanish.taiwan's native people salved by zhenchenggong.    china is  a suzerain   of taiiwan(zhenchengong loyal to ming dynasty),just like japan colonized taiwan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 13:32
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
By "Chinese" history books are you making reference to current historiographical production? Or "official" state text-books? Otherwise, that statement of yours is a bit off-base given the citations already presented. What is the Ming Shi-lu, subversive capitalist literature? Whatever attributes you may wish to assign to Zheng Cheng Gong in 1661, I've been to the Wencheng Pavilion and know all the ins-and-outs of nationalistic propaganda. Besides, I somehow feel that your definition of "colony" has a lot to do with these Chinese terms: xiaoshun, xiangyue, baoliu/weihu, and xiaozhong.
 
Actually tradition has a point here. It can be somewhat difficult to penetrate Chinese history in its finer details if one cannot read chinese. A big portion of older sources are not yet translated to any western language. Of course there has been, and is an ongoing effort to translate much of the important stuff, and many western historians with China as there field of work has also learned to master Chinese. But still there are tons of material that has not came up onto the eyes of westerners yet.  So in that sense Chinese historians have an advantage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 15:31
Well Carcharadon, are you attempting to save the Doc from destruction? Perforce, I have to smile as I fondly gaze upon my scroll (a hand-copy) of Eighteen Scholars on Fairyland by Ch'iu Ying. Let us just say that my grasp of Chinese history and achievements--as well as cultural and societal distinctions--are not of the pedestrian variety. Read and learn as I turn to tradition.
 
He wrote:
this is not my definition of "colony" ,it is many serious history book"s definition.you should read the combridge    modern history volumn3,page 186,page 517,etc .the west history use colony to describe  spanish colony in ameirca in that time,if you have ereetronic book,you can use the word colony,and search it in this book,how can say this is my defination of the colony[?]
[C]hinese propaganda always said taiwan long long ago are chinese land,this is bullsh*t,in fact,taiwan is the first overseas colony of china,just like spanish.taiwan's native people salved by zhenchenggong.    china is  a suzerain   of taiiwan(zhenchengong loyal to ming dynasty),just like japan colonized taiwan.
 
With all due respect, tradition, the New Cambridge Modern History has much to go before gaining Biblical status and scriptural inerrancy [Beware the leaven of the Oxbridgees], yet volume III ("The Counter Reformation and the Economic Revolution, 1559-1610") is not an exercise in lexicography but instead a general narrative that really does not address the manner of government utilized by the Spanish in the New World. The Spanish (or the Portuguese for that matter) never utilized the term "colonies" for their transatlantic dominions. In this respect--just as when analyzing the Chinese sense of xiaozhong and baoliu/weihu--one has to recognize the perceptions of the actors and not the observers! The English might have called their territories "colonies" and its denizens "colonists" but you will not encounter any such terminology in the Spanish and Portuguese documents of the 15th through 18th centuries. The distinction is quite important, specially in any discussion of the indigenous populations of the new "kingdoms", for they received their judicial and administrative autonomy in direct relationship to the crown. For that same reason, I questioned you usage of "colony" with respect to Taiwan. Which brings me directly to point and your use of Zheng Cheng Gong (Zheng Chenggong in Pinying), which naturally contrasts sharply with another figure in the history of the island, Shi Lang, and the creation of the prefecture of Taiwan under the Qing. Rather than discuss "the Gates of Hell", the early Ming appellative for the island, or the xiaoshun of the Zheng (despite my urge to have their heads shavedEvil Smile), or even the personal opinions of the Emperor Kang Xi, let us focus heavily on Fujianese particularism and its effects on contemporary historiography. Shall we discuss the "sacred kings" who "developed" Taiwan?


Edited by drgonzaga - 17 Aug 2009 at 15:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 15:39
But was Taiwan really a colony?  It has become a part of China as most of the South before that. Yes, Taiwan had indigenous population, but so had most of the others Chinese provinces south from Changjiang river. Chinese slowly expanded there and Sinicized the local population.
 
In Taiwan the process was complitely the same. One can't see exploitation of the local population and resources by Chinese, as it can be seen in Africa and Latin America. It was rather a slow cultural expansion and assimilation of the Taiwanese yuanzhumin by the Chinese settlers. In fact, Chinese didn't even control all the island until the Japanese took over and crushed the Western mountain yuanzhumin tribes in the early 20th century.
 
So, I would say it can be called a colony in terms of "overseas settlement" ("overseas" is a far fetched defintion though, since the island is so close to the Chinese Mainland) but it wasn't a colony in a "strict definition" i.e. a source of cheap, goods, resources and slave labor.


Edited by Sarmat - 17 Aug 2009 at 15:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 16:01
AFAIK the Chinese term that is used to refer to a colony is "zhimindi"  (殖民地) but it's almost always used to refer to the Western colonies in Asia, Africa and the New World (including the Dutch colonization of Taiwan) and also Japanese colonies in Asia and has negative connotation. Chinese official historiography never uses term zhimindi as a reference to Taiwan. By contrast it's always called as something like "an intergal part of the Chinese territory" from the very ancient times.

Edited by Sarmat - 17 Aug 2009 at 16:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tradition Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 16:04

spanish havenot wrote the word "colony",not mean it was not exist,just like men havenot used the word religion,but  The primitive religion already exists,colony it the same.so i qouted the cambridge modren history ,they although use colony to describe the spanish empire in ameirca

 It has become a part of China as most of the South before that?not long time ago,taiwan is the Chinese first overseas colony which yan si qi built that.chinese governmernt havenot controlled taiwan before that time.
 
 
 
Chinese didn't even control all the island until the Japanese took over and crushed the Western mountain yuanzhumin tribes in the early 20th century,this is why taiwan is a colony of china,and not  chinese territory.taiwan made the province in the later ching dynasty,when general lin min  chuan faced the japanse threaten.before that, chinese countrol taiwan just like dutch.zhen chen gong just  put Taiwan as a counter-attacks  mainland  platform ,with exploits the yuanzhuming, makes the smuggling trade
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 16:25
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Well Carcharadon, are you attempting to save the Doc from destruction? Perforce, I have to smile as I fondly gaze upon my scroll (a hand-copy) of Eighteen Scholars on Fairyland by Ch'iu Ying. Let us just say that my grasp of Chinese history and achievements--as well as cultural and societal distinctions--are not of the pedestrian variety. Read and learn as I turn to tradition.
 
Nice to hear that you master the language and lishi of old mighty Zhongguo.
 
But still there is some material there that hardly any westerners have seen.


Edited by Carcharodon - 17 Aug 2009 at 16:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tradition Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 16:38
《台灣府志》云:“台灣有中國民,自思齊始。” 《台灣縣志》也说:“顏思齊之所部屬多中土之人,中土之人入台灣自思齊始。”
 
taiwanfuzhi and taiwanxianzhi recorded,yan siqi is the first han nationatilt guy  lived in taiwan,he bring his gangs to make a colony in taiwan,do some Smuggling robs business,and Then economical immigration, seizes the Taiwan land.the wester colonist do the same thing  with chinsese in ameirca,seized the  land and made the white men immigration.yansi qi lived  in the same time with zhenchengong and his daddy,zhen zhilong.
colony have many style,Macroscopic or microscopic, money guidance or military guidance,spanish colony is military oriented.many history use different defination,wny you always call you are right,others are wrong?
 
 
chinese propanganda is bullsh*t,in fact ,qing dynasty is the most greatesr dynasty in chinese history,more aggressive as empire ottoman in the west,invades mongolia,tibet,xinjiang ,make a large Territory as now,it is Three times than folish ming dynasty territory.it is qing dynast"s honour.chinese goverment always said love peace,longlong ago these land was belong to china,it is all propaganda and bullsh*t,with out blood and stell,how to win the large territory?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 16:38
Originally posted by tradition tradition wrote:

spanish havenot wrote the word "colony",not mean it was not exist,just like men havenot used the word religion,but  The primitive religion already exists,colony it the same.so i qouted the cambridge modren history ,they although use colony to describe the spanish empire in ameirca

 It has become a part of China as most of the South before that?not long time ago,taiwan is the Chinese first overseas colony which yan si qi built that.chinese governmernt havenot controlled taiwan before that time.
 
What is the fundamental difference between the Chinese expansion in Taiwan and in the South?
 
No difference at all.
 
If you talk about the "first Chinese overseas colony," then it should be Hainan, because it's also "overseas" and it was "colonized" much longer before Taiwan was "colonized."
 
 
 
Originally posted by tradition tradition wrote:

Chinese didn't even control all the island until the Japanese took over and crushed the Western mountain yuanzhumin tribes in the early 20th century,this is why taiwan is a colony of china,and not  chinese territory.taiwan made the province in the later ching dynasty,when general lin min  chuan faced the japanse threaten.before that, chinese countrol taiwan just like dutch.zhen chen gong just  put Taiwan as a counter-attacks  mainland  platform ,with exploits the yuanzhuming, makes the smuggling trade
 
 
 
No. The Dutch control and Chinese control were totally different. The Dutch were just a very small minority that exploited the local population and extracted all the goods they needed and brought them for the sale in Asian and European markets.
 
Chinese, by contrast, came en masse, started to cultivate land and making it into their own. They didn't view Taiwan just  as an alien land and a source of cheap goods and labor they viewed it as a fertile home of their own. The same as the Chinese settlers from the North viewed the South in the Chinese mainland.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tradition Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 16:49
when chinese occupy hainan,they havenot global trade conceotion,but in the 17century,zhenchengong and his gangs join the global trade wave,the time is different
 
 
The Dutch control and Chinese control were totally different,before yansiqi,no han men lived in taiwan,chinese occupied the land and immigration,it is just similiar with british did in ameirca, yansiqi  and zhenchenggong   did the same things which  exploited the local population and extracted all the goods they needed and brought them for the sale in so called the golbal market in the 17th century.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 17:18
Originally posted by tradition tradition wrote:

when chinese occupy hainan,they havenot global trade conceotion,but in the 17century,zhenchengong and his gangs join the global trade wave,the time is different
 
The Dutch control and Chinese control were totally different,before yansiqi,no han men lived in taiwan,chinese occupied the land and immigration,it is just similiar with british did in ameirca, yansiqi  and zhenchenggong   did the same things which  exploited the local population and extracted all the goods they needed and brought them for the sale in so called the golbal market in the 17th century.
 
Well tradition since you have discovered the transcription problem in the Forum's operating system, you will understand why I did not take the time to decipher one of your posts. But, the one above does have many problems including your refusal to acknowledge not only the trade connections of the Han Dynasty but the historical parallels between Zhuya (Hainan) and Taiwan even in the Ming period. "Global trade" is not solely a maritime phenomenon.
 
Now as to who is "right or wrong", such is not the issue instead the question revolves around who is less affected by bias and nationalistic rationalizations. As Sarmat indicated your argument can not sustain scrutiny in its use of terminology, and from my perspective the issue is one of false politicization. Would you wish to speculate on the Japanese origins of good old comrade Zheng? 


Edited by drgonzaga - 17 Aug 2009 at 17:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 17:23
The Dutch in the 17th century brought Chinese farmers because they needed someone to cultivate the land. In some time the number of the Chinese farmers exceeded by far the number of the Dutch traders and soldiers present in Taiwan. And they were not happy with the Dutch rule. When Zhen Chengong invaded Taiwan he relied on the local Chinese farmers. After Zhen Chengong had expelled the Dutch another wave of the Chinese settlers came from the mainland. They continued their usual traditional way of life (land cultivation). They married the local women and slowly assimilated local tribes into Chinese culture. Zhen Chengong participated in trade. Yes, but so he had been doing that before he relocated to Taiwan and when his main base was in the Mainland China. Does it mean that the Mainland China was "a colony of Zhen Chengong" ? Of course not.
Chinese very soon formed the majority of the population of the island. The Chinese farmers cultivated lands and payed taxes to Zhen Chengong and his heirs that was the usual practice for the Chinese state. The admnistration of Taiwan was not essentially diferent than the administration of the Mainland. Similar methods and similar conditions.
 
Expansion in Taiwan was just a natural continuation of the Chinese expansion in the South. One notable thing though, was that the Chinese were able to expell a Western colonial power from the place. That was quite and achievement IMHO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tradition Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 17:42
you have admitted zhenchengong put the mainland as his base,it is ok.so taiwan is just a platform to support zhenchengong counter attack mainland.it is just a colony,
 
 
do you know settler colonialism?british and spanish although do the same thing with zhen chenggong,how many white immigrations seized the land from the native nation in ameirca,land cultivation,just as you said.
 
The admnistration of Taiwan was not essentially diferent than the administration of the Mainland. you are wrong,it is totolly different,in fact qing just put taiwan as a  fortification ,is totolly different with inland
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tradition Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 17:58
from my perspective the issue is one of false politicization. it is just your view,Comments history need you show your evidence.but i havenot seen you had shown that.just you said hainan and taiwan,i said it is different,bec the time is different,the namad conquer is equivalant with hitler invasion ?of course not.
you always said your defination are right,but havenot any evidence?this is a good way to comment history?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 18:05
I'm afraid, you don't really understand what you're talking about.  "Colonialism" has a broad meaning. Basically there are two types. "Settler" and "Exploitation" Colonialisms. "Settler colonialism" is a phenomenon when large groups of people settle in an alien land, start to cultivate it and move there en masse. Taking this definition, we can say that the whole process of Chinese history is a large "settler colonialism" in all directions including Taiwan.
 
But "Exploitation colonialism" is different; there are only a few colonists among the majority of locals who violently exploite the colony and take the resources. That was quite often during Western Colonisation of Asia and Africa.
 
So, Taiwan was definitely an example of "Settler colonialism," but definitely, not an "Exploitation colonialism."


Edited by Sarmat - 17 Aug 2009 at 18:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 18:28
Originally posted by tradition tradition wrote:

from my perspective the issue is one of false politicization. it is just your view,Comments history need you show your evidence.but i havenot seen you had shown that.just you said hainan and taiwan,i said it is different,bec the time is different,the namad conquer is equivalant with hitler invasion ?of course not.
you always said your defination are right,but havenot any evidence?this is a good way to comment history?
 
The "time" is not different since what was taking place on Hainan in the years 1555-1650 was the identical process experienced in Taiwan. Just as large numbers of Han were transported to Taiwan during those years, so too did such take place on Hainan as Fujian and Guandong peasants were brought to cultivate the island and pushed the Li into the more remote environs of the island.
 
A piece of advice: please refrain from positing claims of others making erroneous analogies...Hitler and Nomads, what next?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tradition Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 18:33
you have agreed with my opinion,chinese in taiwan,they use settler colonialism,one kind of way colonist like british and spanish used,taiwan is really chinese colony,pls read wiki in english
 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settler_colonialism
 
 
 
Imperialist powers may opt for one type or the other, or both at the same time. Perhaps the most clear example of this difference is the British Empire, whose white population settled mainly North America and Oceania, exterminating in the process the native population and building modern infrastructures, and disregarded the Indian subcontinent and Africa, already densely populated. Those areas, instead, were ruled by a small colonial population, and their economies were oriented exclusively around agriculture and extraction aimed at export to the United Kingdom.
 
 
ths both of you, to support my opinion,haha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tradition Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 18:42
hitler and the house of namandy ,both of the england invader,you can said it is the same thing?of course,they are not.(one is the nation-state,another is just dynasty,havenot the nationlism)
 
 
so, chinese occupied the hainan ,it is although different with taiwan.bec time changed.chinese put taiwan as their colony,use settler colonialisn and although rob the land from the native people.rob taiwan"s rosourse for smuggle global businesee in the 17th century,totally different with them
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 18:47
Originally posted by tradition tradition wrote:

ths both of you, to support my opinion,haha
 
What opinion?
 
In fact, I can hardly understand what you're trying to communicate. Confused
 
And most of that I understand is some poorly drafted nonsense.


Edited by Sarmat - 17 Aug 2009 at 18:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tradition Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 19:04
why i said it is different between taiwan and hainan,bec you are not familiar with their history
 
 
as above i have said, before 17th century,it havenot han settlement in taiwan,taiwanfuzhi and taiwanxianzhi all recorded
 
 
but hainan is different,song dynasty it has over 100,000 han immigrants to hainan ,in yuan dynasty,the amount rise to over 170,000.you can said it is similar with taiwan?
 
 
before later ming dynasty,taiwan is no owner,but hainan is not so
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tradition Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 19:24
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Originally posted by tradition tradition wrote:

ths both of you, to support my opinion,haha
 
What opinion?
 
In fact, I can hardly understand what you're trying to communicate. Confused
 
And most of that I understand is some poorly drafted nonsense.
you said the settler colonizatin is the way which chinese used in taiwan,i qupted english wiki to show both of you,  settler colonizatin is one way of colonist always used.so you agree with my opinion,chinese put taiwan as his colony
 
 
both of you said,taiwan is same with hainan,i donot agree,bec,before latter ming dynasty,taiwan havenot any han people lived there,you can search in the book taiwan fuzhi and taiwan xianzhi.
 
but there are over 170000 han people lived in hainan in the yuan dynasty,can you say if is the same,of course not
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 19:52
"Settler Colonization" is the term that was first used by me, and then you found it in wiki after learning about it from my post.
 
What you were trying to prove is that "Chinese colonization" of Taiwan was the same with "Dutch colonization" of the island.
 
Taiwan's case is complitely the same with Hainan. Both were overwhelmed with the waves of Chinese peasant migration lured with the large virgin langs.
 
And as Drgonzaga mentioned, both islands were largely inhabited roughly in the same time span.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 22:21

Apparently, my suspicions of trolling are entirely correct. How anyone can have "numbers" for mainland migration to anywhere, much less Hainan, during the Sung, and then iterate numbers for the Yuan, while totally ignoring the actual process during the Ming, which actually culminated in a revolt of the mountain Li during the Qing, is absolutely astonishing.

English Wiki...hah, wiki washee!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 23:08
Just some observations from Macabe Keliher's "Out of China", based on Yu Yonghe. First, the oldest notice in Chinese records of any landing on Taiwan was in 1292. That said, Taiwan was considered "a mudball in the sea" for the Chinese, as per Qing Emperor Kangxi. By the early 1600s, there were only seven to eight hundred Chinese settlers living there, far outnumbered by the indigenous Malayo-Polynesian tribes, who were racially kin to the Filipinos. Macabe points out that the arrival of the Dutch allowed Chinese immigration to increase, in that the Dutch pacified the tribes. It should be noted that "pacification" was achieved only over specific slices of territory near the sea. The tribes continued to control the hintelands, and anyone stranded in their territory was liable to be killed. So however much Chinese migration there was to the island, and Macabe mentions a figure of 100,000 by 1662, it was obviously limited to certain districts and ports. In 1874 the Japanese sent a punitive expedition into the island to punish one tribe for murdering Japanese fishermen. When compensation was demanded from China, the Chinese court demurred on the grounds that the Aboriginals were "outside their jurisdiction". Even after Japan took over Taiwan, the Aboriginals remained in control of certain territories. A museum I visited a few years back (a Taiwan Aboriginal museum is just up the road on the opposite side of the Taiwanese National Palace Museum, and well worth a few hours look) had a display of photographs showing heads taken in the 1910s. The last serious clash between the Japanese Army and the Taiwanese Aboriginals was the Wushe incident in 1937. So, the reality is that Taiwan only really became "Chinese" in 1945, when the Allies forced its return to Nationalist China, and in 1949, when Chiang Kai-shek's forces moved to the island from the mainland, bringing several million people in their wake.

Edited by lirelou - 17 Aug 2009 at 23:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 23:28
Et tu Brute? And an "aboriginal" museum to boot!Angry However, this interesting aside does nothing to a) alter the parallel with Hainan, 2) destroy the administrative absorption of the island within the system of prefectures refined by the Qing. Now as to "pacification" of the tribes...shades of 19th century Luzon!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2009 at 02:27
I don't think lirelou's note somehow alters the conception of Taiwan as a natural extension of the Chinese thrust to the South.
 
In fact, Wushe incident (that occured in 1930 BTW) proves the point that Taiwan wasn't really a colony. Unlike Chinese, that just slowly expanded through the island and didn't start massive style "pacification" campaigns (a usual pattern of the Chinese expansion) Japanese tried to conquer the whole island right away and imposed very strict restrictions on "Taiwanese Barbarians" as they called aboriginal people that resulted in Wushe rebellion. Nothing like that happened during the Chinese rule, that proves that Taiwan wasn't regarded as a colony in the "exploitation" sense.
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