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Factors behind demographic explosion in Scandinavi

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    Posted: 04 Jul 2020 at 02:48
What would be regarded as major factors behind demographic explosion in Scandinavia in 8-10 centuries AD that instigated the Vikings raids in Europe? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2020 at 03:51
That time was part of a warm period.  The Greenland and Vinland settlements were later done in by a mini ice age, which we would probably still be in if it wasn't for Industrialization warming things up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2020 at 05:07
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

That time was part of a warm period.  The Greenland and Vinland settlements were later done in by a mini ice age, which we would probably still be in if it wasn't for Industrialization warming things up.

So the ending of the Vikings era was due to a global ice age then, I suppose? How comes it affected the expansionist activity of the Norse people only? If we experience new global warming now, should we expect that Scandinavian people will exhibit their expansionist activity again? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2020 at 09:31
You said "factor_s_, plural.  The collapse of the Greenland and Vinland colonies, was probably due to this mini ice age,  of course starvation had an influence too.  I don't know about travels to Russia, that is more your neck of the woods.  Nor do I know about Normandy or the Norman Kingdom in Sicily, nor any supposed South American colonies.

Sparkling wine was invented in England by monks, back when the clime allowed grapes to be grown in England.  Weather/climate has an influence on many things, but how it is/was an influence is poorly understood.  But, no, it is not the only factor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2020 at 20:40
I suspect Scandinavia never had a demographic explosion. Europe used to be very poorly populated back at that time, so the narrative of  great Scandinavian warriors is a bit exaggerated. Their influence was rather insignificant for our civilization.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2020 at 04:51
Then why are you asking about the major factors behind the demographic explosion in Scandinavia?  If you are an English monk, I am sure any marauder looks impressively armed, and is impressively armed, able to carry away whatever they want from coastal monasteries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 08:14
I'ts not easy to imagine a population explosion in Iceland or Greenland, to some degree other Nordic countries share the vulnerability of ice. When you add unusually high levels of sea ice to the lives of Medieval people all the other factors can fall and create the events that lead to forced migration. I have mocked J.Diamond before but he pretty well is in agreement with theory of natural decline in resources leading to desperate voyages for existence itself.
Is the Scandinavian demographic explosion given as a reason for Viking exploration?
Most of the article is hot air about interdisciplinary blablabla then the statistics about geology are useful to the discussion.


Geologically, Iceland and Greenland are very different. Greenland is dominated by its vast inland ice sheet, and the bedrock exposed around the margins is characterized by very old crystalline rocks of the Precambrian shield, which are up to ca. 4000 million years old (Henriksen et al., 2009). The bedrock in the areas of Greenland settled by the Norse includes outcrops of Precambrian shield and sandstones, lavas and igneous intrusions older than 1600 million years. Iceland, in contrast, is geologically a very young country created by volcanic activity over the last 18 million years (Einarsson, 1994). Volcanic eruptions of varying magnitude are frequent. There is written evidence, as well as geological records, that around 205 volcanic eruptions have occurred in Iceland since the Norse settlement, although we know this record is not complete, and the true total is likely to be closer to 300 events


Edited by Vanuatu - 12 Jul 2020 at 08:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 09:02
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

 I have mocked J.Diamond before but he pretty well is in agreement with theory of natural decline in resources leading to desperate voyages for existence itself.

Yes, indeed J.Diamond is one of those writers who advocate the theory of demographic explosion in Scandinavia (in his  book Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 09:34
I read Collapse. do not remember Diamond citing the population explosion in Scandinavia. I don't have a copy now
he talks about five cases if I'm right, his theory of Easter Island was discredited

By Carl Lipo and Terry Hunt

We are hardly surprised that Jared Diamond would write that we are “transparently wrong” about Easter Island.  He has a vested interest in defending his “ecocide” storyline published back in 1995 in Discover Magazine and again in his bestselling book Collapse. We acknowledge that Diamond has much at stake here.  But so do the Easter Islanders.  So too does the field of archeology.  And so too does the truth.

Diamond’s thesis about what happened on Easter Island is not new, building as it did on presumptions originally offered by the first Europeans to set foot on the island in the early 18th century. Sadly, this thesis was not challenged because it so conveniently confirmed 18th century prejudice about superior (European) and inferior (everyone not European) societies. Thor Heyerdahl expanded the story and added a further racist twist about lighter-skinned people who accomplished much, and darker-skinned people who incited rebellion, warfare, and ruin.  Diamond simply continues the tradition by reworking the tale to remove the racist elements, relying instead upon an environmental twist put forth by popular writer Bahn and palynologist Flenley.

http://www.marklynas.org/2011/10/the-easter-island-ecocide-never-happened-response-to-jared-diamond/

https://www.marklynas.org/2011/10/the-easter-island-ecocide-never-happened-response-to-jared-diamond/

Bottom line: Diamond needs to explain how, in the absence of predators and with an almost unlimited supply of food, the rat population would have remained small and had no impact on native plants and animals.

Next, Diamond makes the argument that even if rats could do this type of damage, the particular type of trees on Easter Island were not vulnerable to rats. The facts are as follows: Of the 17 major woody species identified from charcoal found in ancient cooking fires, 14 are documented to have seen major rat impacts elsewhere, or to be edible and highly vulnerable.  Furthermore, because the Jubaea palms were slow growing and did not fruit until about 70 years of age, they were particularly vulnerable. Some fraction of new palms would grow, but not enough to replace an entire forest over time.  Older trees would die, many were lost to fire, and in the end it was a losing battle; not enough young seedlings made it to reproductive age.



Edited by Vanuatu - 12 Jul 2020 at 09:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 09:57
Yes, he did..



Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

I read Collapse. do not remember Diamond citing the population explosion in Scandinavia. I don't have a copy now
he talks about five cases if I'm right, his theory of Easter Island was discredited

By Carl Lipo and Terry Hunt

We are hardly surprised that Jared Diamond would write that we are “transparently wrong” about Easter Island.  He has a vested interest in defending his “ecocide” storyline published back in 1995 in Discover Magazine and again in his bestselling book Collapse. We acknowledge that Diamond has much at stake here.  But so do the Easter Islanders.  So too does the field of archeology.  And so too does the truth.

Diamond’s thesis about what happened on Easter Island is not new, building as it did on presumptions originally offered by the first Europeans to set foot on the island in the early 18th century. Sadly, this thesis was not challenged because it so conveniently confirmed 18th century prejudice about superior (European) and inferior (everyone not European) societies. Thor Heyerdahl expanded the story and added a further racist twist about lighter-skinned people who accomplished much, and darker-skinned people who incited rebellion, warfare, and ruin.  Diamond simply continues the tradition by reworking the tale to remove the racist elements, relying instead upon an environmental twist put forth by popular writer Bahn and palynologist Flenley.

http://www.marklynas.org/2011/10/the-easter-island-ecocide-never-happened-response-to-jared-diamond/

https://www.marklynas.org/2011/10/the-easter-island-ecocide-never-happened-response-to-jared-diamond/

Bottom line: Diamond needs to explain how, in the absence of predators and with an almost unlimited supply of food, the rat population would have remained small and had no impact on native plants and animals.

Next, Diamond makes the argument that even if rats could do this type of damage, the particular type of trees on Easter Island were not vulnerable to rats. The facts are as follows: Of the 17 major woody species identified from charcoal found in ancient cooking fires, 14 are documented to have seen major rat impacts elsewhere, or to be edible and highly vulnerable.  Furthermore, because the Jubaea palms were slow growing and did not fruit until about 70 years of age, they were particularly vulnerable. Some fraction of new palms would grow, but not enough to replace an entire forest over time.  Older trees would die, many were lost to fire, and in the end it was a losing battle; not enough young seedlings made it to reproductive age.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 10:31
He does mention it, beeswax and furs?

No doubt an advantage. Does he ever say that they supplemented diet with seal meat? A decade of over hunting can crush those depending on the meat
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2020 at 10:52
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

He does mention it, beeswax and furs?

Yep, and later Scandinavian folks became also known to the outside world for their smithcraft and as suppliers of the finest swords to the Byzantine's market. 

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

No doubt an advantage. Does he ever say that they supplemented diet with seal meat? A decade of over hunting can crush those depending on the meat

Perhaps so, I don't remember 


Edited by Novosedoff - 12 Jul 2020 at 10:52
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