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Famous mercenaries, adventurers...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2012 at 23:53
Che Guevara- an adventurer, and mercenary for idealism rather than money. Too idealistic, as it turned out, human nature was not up to speed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2012 at 14:38
GCLE, I didn't find Bahrain specifically mentioned in the article, however our naval bases overseas are often guarded by two rings of forces, similar to those which guard our embassies. There is the host nation police or security forces outside the "fence" marking the agreed area of U.S. control, and internal security forces within that fence. The internal security can consist of a contracted civilian security company at the gates and periphery, and U.S. Marines or Sailors within the controlled areas. I've seen Gurkhas on duty outside the U.S. Embassy in Singapore wearing blue uniforms which i took to be part of a civilian contracted force, but now realize may have been part of the Gurkha contingent of the Singapore Police. I don't know if Bahrain has any Gurkhas, so will presume these have been hired by a private security firm.

As for whether any Gurkhas are mercenaries, that argument will go on forever. Some consider anyone who soldiers for pay to be a mercenary. If that is the criteria, then every non-conscripted soldier is a mercenary. Some insist that only foreigners in another country's service are mercenaries.  That would include the Foreign Legion, and the Gurkhas, as well as the foreign volunteers on both sides of the Spanish Civil War. And the definitions can get murkier. I prefer to view the Gurkhas as professional soldiers, or the honorable remnants of an Empire.

And Captain V, as to Che Guevara's idealism, if a willingness to kill anyone who got in the way of his ideal qualifies as idealism, then indeed he was an idealist. That would put him right up there with Horst Wessel, except the latter was a nationalist and Che an internationalist. His mistake was to pick Bolivia based solely upon geo-political considerations with no real knowledge of its recent revolution or peoples. 




Edited by lirelou - 10 Mar 2012 at 14:42
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2012 at 15:59
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

GCLE, I didn't find Bahrain specifically mentioned in the article, however our naval bases overseas are often guarded by two rings of forces, similar to those which guard our embassies.
 
Actually, I thought the oddest thing was they're being employed by the Navy. Pretty obviously it wouldn't be as crew, Ermm, so it would have to be in some shore-based capacity. In the UK it would be marines, but then in the UK the marines are not a separate force.
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....
As for whether any Gurkhas are mercenaries, that argument will go on forever. Some consider anyone who soldiers for pay to be a mercenary. If that is the criteria, then every non-conscripted soldier is a mercenary. Some insist that only foreigners in another country's service are mercenaries.  That would include the Foreign Legion, and the Gurkhas, as well as the foreign volunteers on both sides of the Spanish Civil War. And the definitions can get murkier. I prefer to view the Gurkhas as professional soldiers, or the honorable remnants of an Empire.
Agreed in general. In my vocabulary the classic 'mercenaries' are the condottieri of the Italian renaissance and the Free Companies in 14th century France, typified in English histories by Sir John Hawkwood. Have you read Doyle's The White Company?
 
I'd say therefore that a 'mercenary' is someone who serves with a military unit that hires itself out as a whole (commanders and all) to fight on a short-term contract for any employer. The Gurkhas don't meet that specification at all, though those that worked for 'security companies' in, say, Katanga, in the 20th century did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2012 at 19:51

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That's right Graham, I'm so confused. What the heck does pensions have to do with finance. Silly me. It's fortunate I have you around to keep me right.

What you had wrong was not realising the problem arose because of changes in the terms of service over the years, nothing to do with difference between UK soldiers and Gurkhas. It's the word 'parity' that was wrongly used.

Not where I come from.

Parity Meaning and Definition

  1. (n.) The quality or condition of being equal or equivalent; 
Quote
"The actress, and daughter of Gurkha corps major James Lumley, Joanna Lumley, who had highlighted the treatment of the Gurkhas and campaigned for their rights, commented: "This is the welcome we have always longed to give".[56]
 
Quote
So what? She is still Mrs Barlow, not Mrs Lumley, which is what you called her. As I said you were confused again. It now looks as though you didn't have any idea of who she even is.

I do confess that "Absolutely Fabulous is not on my viewing list. I leave that sort of thing to intellectuals like yourself.
What is it about  Joanna Lumley that has your knickers in a twist sir?

Quote
A charity, the Gurkha Welfare Trust, provides aid to alleviate hardship and distress among Gurkha ex-servicemen.[57]

And plenty of charities help all sorts of unfortunate people. Are you arguing that poor people shouldn't be looked after? Surely even in Texas you have charities for the people whocan't even getjobs at Walmart?

The Gurkahs y'aal dumped and refused residence in the UK, you know, the veterans that did your fighting for you. Were living on handouts from active duty Gurkhas. The Brits deducted that money from their pay.
If Texas residents can't get a job, they get unemployment money. If that runs out(and it has been extended umpteen times) they get Welfare. Welfare includes a Govt credit card for free groceries, free heath care, and of course....money.
They could always be forced by the Government to stack shelves at Tescos sans remuneration. Oh no, how silly of me. That's what happens in the UK.

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Gurkhas to bear brunt of military spending cuts again
The Gurkhas are once again expected to suffer the most when the latest round of Armed Forces redundancies are announced next week. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/defence/9011595/Gurkhas-to-bear-brunt-of-military-spending-cuts-again.html

Do you ever get anything correct.
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But they're cutting the whole army, not just the Gurkhas. I assume they have their own strategic/tactical reasons for deciding who is declared redundant, but there's nothing except speculationo in thatarticle about the Gurkas being cut more than other parts of the army.

What is it about "Gurkhas to bear brunt of military spending cuts again" that has you confused?
 
Quote
The speculation I like in that article is that defence officials are trying to embarrass the government into fewer cuts by playing on popular support for the Gurkhas.  

Graham, you use to be much better at this.


Edited by Buckskins - 10 Mar 2012 at 19:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2012 at 20:04

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Agreed in general. In my vocabulary the classic 'mercenaries' are the condottieri of the Italian renaissance and the Free Companies in 14th century France, typified in English histories by Sir John Hawkwood. Have you read Doyle's The White Company?
 
I'd say therefore that a 'mercenary' is someone who serves with a military unit that hires itself out as a whole (commanders and all) to fight on a short-term contract for any employer. The Gurkhas don't meet that specification at all, though those that worked for 'security companies' in, say, Katanga, in the 20th century did.



As a noun, it means a soldier for hire.

The Hessians who fought for the British in the American Revolution were not mercenaries in the modern sense, but conscripts who were sent to fight by the leaders of the Germanic states, who were paid by the British crown.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_meaning_of_mercenary

Nepal was never a part of the British Empire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2012 at 21:34
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

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Quote
"The actress, and daughter of Gurkha corps major James Lumley, Joanna Lumley, who had highlighted the treatment of the Gurkhas and campaigned for their rights, commented: "This is the welcome we have always longed to give".[56]
So what? She is still Mrs Barlow, not Mrs Lumley, which is what you called her. As I said you were confused again. It now looks as though you didn't have any idea of who she even is.
I do confess that "Absolutely Fabulous is not on my viewing list. I leave that sort of thing to intellectuals like yourself.
What is it about  Joanna Lumley that has your knickers in a twist sir?
Your blatant disregard of common civility. Her married name is Barlow. If you use the prefix Mrs you follow it with the married name, not the maiden name. Her mother would be Mrs Lumley. She isn't.
 
You're old enough to know better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2012 at 03:50
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

GCLE, I didn't find Bahrain specifically mentioned in the article, however our naval bases overseas are often guarded by two rings of forces, similar to those which guard our embassies. There is the host nation police or security forces outside the "fence" marking the agreed area of U.S. control, and internal security forces within that fence. The internal security can consist of a contracted civilian security company at the gates and periphery, and U.S. Marines or Sailors within the controlled areas. I've seen Gurkhas on duty outside the U.S. Embassy in Singapore wearing blue uniforms which i took to be part of a civilian contracted force, but now realize may have been part of the Gurkha contingent of the Singapore Police. I don't know if Bahrain has any Gurkhas, so will presume these have been hired by a private security firm.

As for whether any Gurkhas are mercenaries, that argument will go on forever. Some consider anyone who soldiers for pay to be a mercenary. If that is the criteria, then every non-conscripted soldier is a mercenary. Some insist that only foreigners in another country's service are mercenaries.  That would include the Foreign Legion, and the Gurkhas, as well as the foreign volunteers on both sides of the Spanish Civil War. And the definitions can get murkier. I prefer to view the Gurkhas as professional soldiers, or the honorable remnants of an Empire.

And Captain V, as to Che Guevara's idealism, if a willingness to kill anyone who got in the way of his ideal qualifies as idealism, then indeed he was an idealist. That would put him right up there with Horst Wessel, except the latter was a nationalist and Che an internationalist. His mistake was to pick Bolivia based solely upon geo-political considerations with no real knowledge of its recent revolution or peoples. 


 
"Getting in one's way" is a marvellously flexible phrase that can be adapted to various useage. Many in history have gotten in the way of US foreign policy, for example, and then been dispensed with by figures some, depending on their orientation, would consider iconic, such as the Marines or CIA personnel. Foolish as it may seem when taking a longer and more philosophical view of things, killing those in the way has been done by all authorities at one time or another. The US is no shy wallflower in this regard, either in the past or in the present. Historically, those in the way have at various times included: native Americans, the French, the British government, Canadian colonists, Spain, the Hawaiian royality, Philipine peasants, socialist reformers in Latin America, communists anywhere and everywhere, and lately (and oddly) those that threaten Israel. That's just the short list. Not that other countries don't have lists of their own.
 
 I suspect that many "mercenaries and adventurers", when it comes down to it, would not have been the type one would want to have a beer with. At least Che, I'd wager, would have demanded that all had access to the pub, and all got a beer, even if they were broke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2012 at 18:59
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Quote
Quote
"The actress, and daughter of Gurkha corps major James Lumley, Joanna Lumley, who had highlighted the treatment of the Gurkhas and campaigned for their rights, commented: "This is the welcome we have always longed to give".[56]
So what? She is still Mrs Barlow, not Mrs Lumley, which is what you called her. As I said you were confused again. It now looks as though you didn't have any idea of who she even is.
I do confess that "Absolutely Fabulous is not on my viewing list. I leave that sort of thing to intellectuals like yourself.
What is it about  Joanna Lumley that has your knickers in a twist sir?
Your blatant disregard of common civility. Her married name is Barlow. If you use the prefix Mrs you follow it with the married name, not the maiden name. Her mother would be Mrs Lumley. She isn't.
 
You're old enough to know better.

Oh do forgive me Graham. Had I known my carelessness would have made you so emotionally charged, I would have course dropped the Mrs. It's such a pity the same support she gave your mercenaries never originated with a British Government official.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2012 at 19:06

 
Quote
 I suspect that many "mercenaries and adventurers", when it comes down to it, would not have been the type one would want to have a beer with. At least Che, I'd wager, would have demanded that all had access to the pub, and all got a beer, even if they were broke.

 If you want to shake the hand, of the hand that shook the hand, of the guy that turned Che's lights out, i'll be in BC toward the end of summer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2012 at 19:11
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Quote
Quote
"The actress, and daughter of Gurkha corps major James Lumley, Joanna Lumley, who had highlighted the treatment of the Gurkhas and campaigned for their rights, commented: "This is the welcome we have always longed to give".[56]
So what? She is still Mrs Barlow, not Mrs Lumley, which is what you called her. As I said you were confused again. It now looks as though you didn't have any idea of who she even is.
I do confess that "Absolutely Fabulous is not on my viewing list. I leave that sort of thing to intellectuals like yourself.
What is it about  Joanna Lumley that has your knickers in a twist sir?
Your blatant disregard of common civility. Her married name is Barlow. If you use the prefix Mrs you follow it with the married name, not the maiden name. Her mother would be Mrs Lumley. She isn't.
 
You're old enough to know better.

Oh do forgive me Graham. Had I known my carelessness would have made you so emotionally charged, I would have course dropped the Mrs.
 
Doesn't explain why you used it in the first place. Perjhaps you should prefer checking facts to trying to be funny.
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It's such a pity the same support she gave your mercenaries never originated with a British Government official.
True.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2012 at 19:52
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:


 
Quote
 I suspect that many "mercenaries and adventurers", when it comes down to it, would not have been the type one would want to have a beer with. At least Che, I'd wager, would have demanded that all had access to the pub, and all got a beer, even if they were broke.

 If you want to shake the hand, of the hand that shook the hand, of the guy that turned Che's lights out, i'll be in BC toward the end of summer.
 
Thank's for the warning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2012 at 19:53

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Oh do forgive me Graham. Had I known my carelessness would have made you so emotionally charged, I would have course dropped the Mrs.

Doesn't explain why you used it in the first place. Perjhaps you should prefer checking facts to trying to be funny.

I used it in error sir. I'm not in the habit of blowing up irrelevant minutiae to distract from the point in question. 
Quote
It's such a pity the same support she gave your mercenaries never originated with a British Government official.

True.

I find it gratifying that you acknowledge they are mercenaries. You see, we both learned something.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2012 at 19:56
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:


 
Quote
 I suspect that many "mercenaries and adventurers", when it comes down to it, would not have been the type one would want to have a beer with. At least Che, I'd wager, would have demanded that all had access to the pub, and all got a beer, even if they were broke.

 If you want to shake the hand, of the hand that shook the hand, of the guy that turned Che's lights out, i'll be in BC toward the end of summer.
 
Thank's for the warning.

 You're most welcome.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 11:03
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

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Quote
Oh do forgive me Graham. Had I known my carelessness would have made you so emotionally charged, I would have course dropped the Mrs.

Doesn't explain why you used it in the first place. Perjhaps you should prefer checking facts to trying to be funny.

I used it in error sir. I'm not in the habit of blowing up irrelevant minutiae to distract from the point in question. 
Note that I had to reformat this again for you. I don't know why you can't get it right.
I gather you're now saying that getting the facts right is unimportant.
Quote
Quote
Quote
It's such a pity the same support she gave your mercenaries never originated with a British Government official.

True.

I find it gratifying that you acknowledge they are mercenaries. You see, we both learned something.
 Whether they are called mercenaries or not has no relevance to anything. The word has all sorts of connotations, under some of which the Gurkhas are mercenaries and under others they are not.
 
That's what you should have learned from this thread.


Edited by gcle2003 - 12 Mar 2012 at 11:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 18:07
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Quote
Quote
Oh do forgive me Graham. Had I known my carelessness would have made you so emotionally charged, I would have course dropped the Mrs.

Doesn't explain why you used it in the first place. Perjhaps you should prefer checking facts to trying to be funny.

I used it in error sir. I'm not in the habit of blowing up irrelevant minutiae to distract from the point in question. 
Note that I had to reformat this again for you. I don't know why you can't get it right.
I gather you're now saying that getting the facts right is unimportant.
Quote
Quote
Quote
It's such a pity the same support she gave your mercenaries never originated with a British Government official.

True.

I find it gratifying that you acknowledge they are mercenaries. You see, we both learned something.
 Whether they are called mercenaries or not has no relevance to anything. The word has all sorts of connotations, under some of which the Gurkhas are mercenaries and under others they are not.
 
That's what you should have learned from this thread.

On a thread with a topic of Mercenaries in part, you can say given the fact that Gurkhas are  Mercenaries( which you acknowledged) is of no relevance. I agree to disagree, now that's the end of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 20:28
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Quote
Quote
Oh do forgive me Graham. Had I known my carelessness would have made you so emotionally charged, I would have course dropped the Mrs.

Doesn't explain why you used it in the first place. Perjhaps you should prefer checking facts to trying to be funny.

I used it in error sir. I'm not in the habit of blowing up irrelevant minutiae to distract from the point in question. 
Note that I had to reformat this again for you. I don't know why you can't get it right.
I gather you're now saying that getting the facts right is unimportant.
Quote
Quote
Quote
It's such a pity the same support she gave your mercenaries never originated with a British Government official.

True.

I find it gratifying that you acknowledge they are mercenaries. You see, we both learned something.
 Whether they are called mercenaries or not has no relevance to anything. The word has all sorts of connotations, under some of which the Gurkhas are mercenaries and under others they are not.
 
That's what you should have learned from this thread.

On a thread with a topic of Mercenaries in part, you can say given the fact that Gurkhas are  Mercenaries( which you acknowledged) is of no relevance. I agree to disagree, now that's the end of it.
It's not a matter of fact, it's a matter of definition. You can call the Gurkhas mercenaries or you can call them not mercenaries. Neither position is 'correct'. Neither position is 'wrong'. That's why it is irrelevant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 20:57
The Royal Gurkha Rifles are not mercenaries. They are professional soldiers serving as part of the standing British army.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Birddog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2012 at 09:53
Thomas Cochrane. Although he was a sea going man, his time fighting for the Chilians, Brazilians and Greeks mark him if not as a mercanry, at least as a great adventurer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2012 at 16:56
mer·ce·nar·y
1. Motivated solely by a desire for monetary or material gain.
2. Hired for service in a foreign army.
n. pl. mer·ce·nar·ies
1. One who serves or works merely for monetary gain; a hireling.
2. A professional soldier hired for service in a foreign army.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mercenary



Edited by Buckskins - 15 Mar 2012 at 16:56
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