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Famous Soviet Muslim Veteran of WWII passes away

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Sarmat View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 18:31
 
Many saw this iconic image of WWII signifying the final defeat of the IIID Reich. The Soviet Flag over the fallen Reichstag.
 
But very few know that the Soviet soldier who flew the flag was a Muslim from the Dagestan region of North Caucasus, Abdulkhakim Ismailov.
 
Today this brave man and veteran has passed away.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPQR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 19:42
wow that is sad, that is one of the most Iconic pictures of the 20th Century along with the moon landings, Iwo Jima, The Fall of Saigon, The Atomic bomb, and countless others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ziegenbartami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 19:48
I read an article a while ago (I believe it was in Der Spiegel) about how the Soviet authorities photoshopped this image to remove the 3 or 4 wristwatches the man was wearing as the picture was taken. 
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule."
- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 20:21

I have seen an interview with some of those muslim veterans and even the Chechens who were deported after the war were no less proud of serving in what they called "the great patriotic war".

This picture is among the most famous pictures in history, wasn't it made into a film because the Americans made a film about raising the flag in Iwo Jima which is no way comprable to raising the flag over the Reichstag.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPQR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 21:42
Yes the raising of the flag was epic, a true testament to the will of a nation fighting for its survival. It is a picture not only Russians should be proud of but mankind as well in what ever you are struggling with that you can conquer it. Its similar to the Moon landing pictures that demonstrate not just an American landing on the Moon, but more importantly a human being landing on a world other than our own.

As for the Flag Raising at Iwo Jima, whether or not it was raised twice once for the capture and 2nd time for the picture. The flag also hearkens to many Americans in their struggle against the Japanese, from Pearl Harbor to Iwo Jima and the birth of a Superpower.

So although the Iwo Jima flag raising resonates in the hearts and minds of Americans, to me the flag over the Reichstag is more important on a global scale.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 22:12
Good post, SPQR. Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 23:46

That day of flag rising surely was the day when the history of the world changed and as Seko mentioned a new superpower was born, initiated the cold war, the world was divided into two blocks, 100s of proxy wars were fought and millions of more lives went.

So overall surely that picture and Abdulkhakim won't be forgotten in the books of history for generations to come.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2010 at 11:28
Which ethnicity did he belong to? Tatar, Chechen, or Dagestani?

When the Chechens and Crimean Tatars were deported for collaborating with the Nazis, did soldiers of these ethnicities serving with the Red Army escape from this fate?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2010 at 17:59

Actually, there is no ethicity like "Dagestani." "Dagestan" ("Mountains' country" from Turkic) is a name of a densily populated region with several dozens of indigenous ethnicities and where 14 local languages have official status.

He was a Kumyk. Kumyks is a Turkic ethnic group one of many others Dagestani ethnic groups.
 
During the deporations the soldiers in the active army weren't touched. Quite often they even didn't know what happened to their families back home and some of them discovered that only after the end of the war.
 
Paradoxically, but there were many war heros among Chechens, Crimean Tatars and other repressed ethnicities.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2010 at 11:20
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

During the deporations the soldiers in the active army weren't touched. Quite often they even didn't know what happened to their families back home and some of them discovered that only after the end of the war.
 
Paradoxically, but there were many war heros among Chechens, Crimean Tatars and other repressed ethnicities.


What did they do when they returned home to find that their entire villages had dissappeared?
Did they try to join their families in their new homes in Siberia or Central Asia, or did they stay where the old villages were integrating with the new settlers?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2010 at 13:07
Most of them just moved to the new places to join their people and relatives.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2010 at 15:38
I heard that 100 000 turkic fighted against soviet.

Edited by Reck - 19 Mar 2010 at 13:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2010 at 17:47
People may forget his name but they will never forget that picture so in a way hes immortal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2010 at 18:49
Originally posted by Reck Reck wrote:

I heard that 100 000 turkic fighted against soviet. 
And millions against Nazists...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2010 at 20:57
Some 200k Tatars alone died in WWII fighting for the Soviets, the fourth nationality after Russians, Ukrainians and Belorussians. for them this was the great patriotic war and they fought it as such and actually when it comes to collaboration with the Nazis, very few collaborated and preferred to die.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPQR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 00:51
Originally posted by Reck Reck wrote:

I heard that 100 000 turkic fighted against soviet.But i can't accuse them.Churchill, Americans also supported nazis.Germans attack weakened colonial empires and made to split up and at the end many nations of Asia & Africa freed.


Huh?

I guess that's why Americans and the Brits also attacked Germany helping the Soviets in defeating the Nazis. (They also supported them too??? Ok maybe a few like Henry Ford or Lindbergh which would be maybe 1-20% and after finding out what the final solution was probably 1-3%).

So the Germans attacked the colonial empires?? not exactly if anyone it was the Japanese that did the most when it came to attacking colonies. After the war most of the countries that had colonies were weakened (Belgium, France, U.K., Netherlands... etc...)Regardless the colonies that won their freedom did not necessarily need help from the Germans and Japanese from gaining independence.

Edited by SPQR - 22 Feb 2010 at 00:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2010 at 21:09

Britain, France were colonial empires .What's the different?



Edited by Reck - 14 Mar 2010 at 14:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2010 at 22:17
Reck, you'd better brush up on your history of the Kalmykia Oblast and abandon the possibility that this forum is replete with the gullible. By the way, how did you get from the Volga Valley to Afghanistan...not too many Oirats, much less Buddhists, there last time anyone checked?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPQR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2010 at 23:49
Of course SOME Westerners supported the Nazis, but not the nation as a whole, you see in the United States there is freedom of speech where you will have supporters and detractors. In the beginning, Americans overall supported neither and favored isolationism but soon the majority were against the Nazis.

Their small support that was pro Nazi withered away as soon as the Germans invaded Poland; and for the U.S. The attack on Pearl harbor. Later support fell when they found out about the genocide that was going on in Europe where over 6 million Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals etc... were being executed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 00:06
Originally posted by Reck Reck wrote:

Britain, France were colonial empires and German also wanted new colony.What's the different?Western supported the nazis, it's proven.And their opinion always changed koz their goal's only own interest.Also some kalmyks fought with Germans against Soviets and too few kalmyk soldiers many time won Soviets!!!After war ended the kalmyks went to Europe but Soviets demanded back all them and Western arrested all these many thousand kalmyks and gave to Soviets and all executed.Also in 1943 winter 100 000 kalmyks deported to Sibiria and 2/3 of them died.Kalmyk's dream were only BACK TO MONGOLIA from Volga to Mongolia.Kalmyks migrated to Volga in 17th century but in 1771 170 000 kalmyks went back to Mongolia but Russia didn't want let them and killed 2/3 of them on the way back to homeland.I am kalmyk man.

You are as Kalmyk as I am Martian. And do not pretend to have any relation to the great nation of Kalmyks.
 
From what you wrote it's apparent that you have 0% relation to Kalmyks what so ever, as well as 0% understanding of their history.  And no Kalmyk would put a picture of a Chechen terrorist on his Avatar.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 09:00

russians are terrorist, isn'it? I am changed again my avatar.



Edited by Reck - 14 Mar 2010 at 13:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 12:41

.



Edited by Reck - 19 Mar 2010 at 13:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 13:00
You're not Kalmyk. Kalmyks and Chechens hate each other but not because of Russians. Two people have been fighting for several centuries and Kalmyks treated Chechens very brutally. In fact, they terrorized Chechnia in the 18th century and one of the capital camps of Kalmyk khan Ayka was in the occupied area of historical Chechnia. And Chechens still have many legends and sayings of how brutal and blood-thirsty Kalmyks were etc.
 
Kalmyks played for Chechnia the same role as Mongols played for Iran or Kwarezm in the 13th century the only difference is that with Chechens and Kalmyks it only happened some 200 years ago.
 
Also, Kalmyks do not view themselves as Mongols. Their ancestral land is not Mongolia. And Said Buriatsky is not a "group" it's a Vakhabbi radical, a former Buryat-Russian Buddhist monk who converted to the radical Islam and now is trying to preach in Chechnia.
 
You clearly have no idea about all these things. And it's strange that you're trying to represent yourself as someone who you are not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 13:26
I'm kalmyk of mongolia not of russia, ok? Kalmyk are mongols.
Kalmyks homeland is mongolia-Dzungaria or northern Xinjang.Southern Xinjang is turkic land, OK?
Are you turkic?I am mongol.Chechens &kalmyks many time fought with each other.
Kalmyks helped to Russia to conquer Caucasus and it's originated these problem.Are you live in Russia?I think sure.


Edited by Reck - 24 Feb 2010 at 13:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 16:22
Enough! No Hazara would claim they are "Kalmyk" either from Mongolia or Dzungaria except as a consequence of faulty reading. The Dzungars of Xinjiang were dispersed by the Qing in the 18th century and unless you will now claim to be a long-lost Moghul speaker from Herat, these pretensions are becoming boorish.
 
Try to fit your puzzle pieces here:
 
 
 
The book to read:
 
Juha Janhunen, ed. The Mongolic Languages. London: Routledge, 2003. i.e: Michael Weier, "Moghul", p. 248-265.
 
Next, I'll be expecting an avatar of Tanzeem Nasl e Nau Hazara Mughul!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 16:34
What's ur nationality ?

Edited by Reck - 14 Mar 2010 at 13:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 16:38
Northern Xinjang's mongolian.

Edited by Reck - 14 Mar 2010 at 13:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 17:45
Hmm...nice view of the Blue Mosque from Aya Sofia but a bit distant from Ulan Bator, wouldn't you say Reck? Now as to my "nationality" well I guess since I hold both an United States and European Union passports, I suppose I can dig up some Mongol aka Hun in the ancestral tree, after all St. Stephen of Hungary hangs on one of the branches not to mention a certain Inca whose East Asian credentials are impeccable. See the difference is that I am quite comfortable in stating I am an American and have no need to mythologize my present cultural milieu with trappings of a hoary past. To dwell on ethnic exclusivity as some sort of cultural monniker is atavistic and certainly can not define what one is in the 21st century. If you are a citizen of the Mongolian Republic than just that should suffice as your identity and your concerns should be the welfare and stability of that state in the modern world not some misbeggoten assertions on blood purity harking back to some rather uncomfortable notions of an uncomfortable past so as to engage in the polemical.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 18:09
i suggest you don't originate any quarrel, are you agree it? Sarmat you're
lied: kalmyks are not mongol, their homeland is not mongol.It's all false.Northern xinjang is mongolian land and kalmyks are mongol.
drgonzaga, you're also tried falsificate history: manchus dispersed Dzungaria so their land is not of mongols, isn'it ? Oirats still living in Xinjang and  in Mongolia .You all tried falsificate history for your own interest.How you can say Kalmyk's homeland is not Mongolia?
and i'm asked you, drgonzaga, what's your nationality?


Edited by Reck - 24 Feb 2010 at 18:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 23:17
Just because I couldn't resist while reading this thread, I misued my moderator's power and traced Recks IP for interests sake. Reck's IP traces to an ISP located in Ulaanbator - Mongolia. So perhaps you two should ease up on him a bit?
 
And what is your ancestory Drgonzaga? I've been meaning to ask you, you allude to enough thinks that its hard to quite pin down.
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