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Fear and Consequences

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    Posted: 28 May 2014 at 02:20
This has come up before in various forms, but I still find this quite amazing, here in 2014.

What is it, exactly, that propels so many to be terrified by science, by change, by new developments, by (horrors) gender equality?

I mean, I feel a bit daunted and perturbed by figuring out the new I Pad, but what is it that compels family members to stone and beat to death a female member of the family, for the crime of marrying without consent (just today, in Pakistan), or, for having sex outside of a narrow tribal interpretation of acceptable (see the link below)?

A medieval mentality has lingered on......but why?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/27/sudan-death-sentence-woman-gives-birth
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2014 at 04:13
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

What is it, exactly, that propels so many to be terrified by science, by change, by new developments, by (horrors) gender equality?
 
Everyone has their own "comfort zone", and imho, comfort zones can be expanded through education. Generally speaking, people are afraid to move out of their comfort zone for fear of the unknown. This is highlighted by primitive peoples who saw omens in the movement of the moon or the seasons.
 
Quote ....gender equality
 
There is no such thing as "gender equality", every married man knows who the boss is.Wink
 
Quote I mean, I feel a bit daunted and perturbed by figuring out the new I Pad, but what is it that compels family members to stone and beat to death a female member of the family, for the crime of marrying without consent (just today, in Pakistan), or, for having sex outside of a narrow tribal interpretation of acceptable (see the link below)?

A medieval mentality has lingered on......but why?
 
I can't answer this last part. No human being has the right to behave like this, remember the public beheading of the Muslim Princess and the hanging of her lover, by a crane!
 
I tend to think it's just a reinforcement of the power held over people by some leaders-unfortunately predominant in the Muslim world. It's simply saying, "Do this because the book says so", but in reality, The Book, whatever it may be, does not say so.
 
As for
Quote "I feel a bit daunted and perturbed by figuring out the new I Pad.
 
Ask your grandchildren, they'll happily explain it to you. LOL

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/27/sudan-death-sentence-woman-gives-birth
[/QUOTE]

Edited by toyomotor - 28 May 2014 at 04:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2014 at 09:13

That this is wrong is one thing to agree upon.  That is not the same as to embrace every "change" or every "new development" or to assume that all peoples on earth should see things the same ("progressive"?) way.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2014 at 10:39
But how I ask you, do you state that it is wrong? Do you not judge Muslims, and that is cultural imperialism. I have noticed you Scandinavians are bad at that.   

Just kidding, I do agree it is wrong, but there must be a mode of determining right and wrong for there to be a wrong. Also there must be absolute right or wrong.

I eagerly await a reply from anyone
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2014 at 12:25
Originally posted by Voltage Voltage wrote:

But how I ask you, do you state that it is wrong? Do you not judge Muslims, and that is cultural imperialism. I have noticed you Scandinavians are bad at that.   

Just kidding, I do agree it is wrong, but there must be a mode of determining right and wrong for there to be a wrong. Also there must be absolute right or wrong.

I eagerly await a reply from anyone
I am not sure what to answer. Perhaps:"If someone label that "cultural imperialism" so what?" Since the idea of "cultural imperialism" for me is very vague. If laws in muslim dominated societies openly goes against anyone else(I think it is hard to deny such laws demonstrate hatred against others), how then can they blame the rest of us for making societies anti-muslim?
But I will partly admit "scandinavians" don´t always solve problems internally at the best(and they do try different ways, so there is different "scandinavians"), but who does? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2014 at 12:35
Quote But how I ask you, do you state that it is wrong? Do you not judge Muslims, and that is cultural imperialism. I have noticed you Scandinavians are bad at that.

Even more to the point, selective and sensationalised reporting to a population widely ignorant of the on-the-ground realities massively amplifies the perception that a "medieval mentality has lingered on".

The first thing to realise is that there are always shocking crimes happening occasionally in any country. The ones that occur in your country you dismiss as they are clearly exceptions, but ones that occur in weird foreign places that you have been trained to believe are medieval you take as representative.

The second thing to realise is that in a country where law and order is poor or non-existent, life is cheap and there is great inequality, you can pretty much do as you please until someone else does as they please. Imagine paedophile priests being able to hire hit men to silence their former victims, or place sever economic pressure on their families.

The third thing to realise is that the neo-missionary preaching of holier-than-thou westerners is extremely irritating. When combined with military invasions and economic pressure, or used to white wash these two with a moral justification, the above two groups can appeal to 'backwardness' in order to garner support or white wash whatever it is they want to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2014 at 12:40
Quote I am not sure what to answer. Perhaps:"If someone label that "cultural imperialism" so what?" Since the idea of "cultural imperialism" for me is very vague. If laws in muslim dominated societies openly goes against anyone else(I think it is hard to deny such laws demonstrate hatred against others), how then can they blame the rest of us for making societies anti-muslim?

That's like me denying you a visa or equal rights because Brevik shot someone once. Can't you distinguish between person A and person B? Or are all brown people guilty of the crimes of other brown people?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2014 at 12:58
 
Let's not make this a racial issue, or for that matter a religious one.
 
The fact is that some countries govern on the fear factor, fear of being denounced as being "anti" the ruling government in some way, which in turn has consequences such as imprisonment, with or without torture, and possibly even execution.
 
That the most publicised of these governments happen to be in third world countries, Asia or even Eastern Europe is unfortunate, but the facts remain.
 
The OP heading reminds me of Newtons Third Law, "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." For every action there are consequences, and they may only be the fear of discovery, but consequences do exist.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2014 at 13:00
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Quote I am not sure what to answer. Perhaps:"If someone label that "cultural imperialism" so what?" Since the idea of "cultural imperialism" for me is very vague. If laws in muslim dominated societies openly goes against anyone else(I think it is hard to deny such laws demonstrate hatred against others), how then can they blame the rest of us for making societies anti-muslim?

That's like me denying you a visa or equal rights because Brevik shot someone once. Can't you distinguish between person A and person B? Or are all brown people guilty of the crimes of other brown people?
Laws are not as I see it to be seen at a par with individual acts. And this case was about a death sentence, that is about the people in power, not about any individual "mad man". On the other hand You are right that out of the worlds muslims many probably are opposed to any discrimination, and any sentences like the one in question.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2014 at 13:08
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Quote I am not sure what to answer. Perhaps:"If someone label that "cultural imperialism" so what?" Since the idea of "cultural imperialism" for me is very vague. If laws in muslim dominated societies openly goes against anyone else(I think it is hard to deny such laws demonstrate hatred against others), how then can they blame the rest of us for making societies anti-muslim?

That's like me denying you a visa or equal rights because Brevik shot someone once. Can't you distinguish between person A and person B? Or are all brown people guilty of the crimes of other brown people?
Laws are not as I see it to be seen at a par with individual acts. And this case was about a death sentence, that is about the people in power, not about any individual "mad man". On the other hand You are right that out of the worlds muslims many probably are opposed to any discrimination, and any sentences like the one in question.
 
The fact that laws exist to permit this type of action is in itself disgraceful and barbaric.
 
That the countries which allow it are held in low esteem by the civilised world is to be expected and applauded.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2014 at 16:07
Of course we will forget conveniently something called 9/11, and a few other small events.

I do admit that these are religious activists, but it is impossible to separate religion from worldview.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2014 at 17:00
Originally posted by Voltage Voltage wrote:

Of course we will forget conveniently something called 9/11, and a few other small events.

I do admit that these are religious activists, but it is impossible to separate religion from worldview.

 
 
9/11 as it's commonly know was the second Day of Infamy perpetrated upon the United States and it's people by outsiders. The first was the attack on Pearl Harbour, unprovoked and unannounced.
 
They will both go down as being among the worst cases of cowardice ever committed, and will never be forgiven or forgotten, nor should they be.
 
That Osama Bin Laden has been killed is no real recompense, there are groups and individuals that supported him still in existence, and they don't deserve to be.
 
While I don't always support US overseas forays, in the case of 9/11, I hope every single person who contributed to the attack is hunted down and "terminated with extreme prejudice".
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2014 at 20:00
''Fear is the Key''

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''fight fear like the bitch it is...then get strong''

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2014 at 21:52
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Quote But how I ask you, do you state that it is wrong? Do you not judge Muslims, and that is cultural imperialism. I have noticed you Scandinavians are bad at that.

Even more to the point, selective and sensationalised reporting to a population widely ignorant of the on-the-ground realities massively amplifies the perception that a "medieval mentality has lingered on".

The first thing to realise is that there are always shocking crimes happening occasionally in any country. The ones that occur in your country you dismiss as they are clearly exceptions, but ones that occur in weird foreign places that you have been trained to believe are medieval you take as representative.

Yes, the media does like to sensationalize, but on the other hand, that doesn't mean the events aren't actually occurring. There is a criminal element in all countries, usually a small proportion of the population, but I don't think we can make a simple comparison here. In certain regions, discrimination and even violence against women is  deeply embedded in the culture, and in some cases even written into law. There are no western countries that allow for crimes such as the Brevik case, mentioned above, or any of the similar outrages seen, either in law or in popular culture.

Don't get me wrong, I am not describing an entire region of the planet as medieval. I've known and worked with a number of people from the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent, and they have been the most pleasant one could ask for. There are, I'm sure, many millions across those regions that simply wish to go beyond this sort of nonsense.

But I also don't think we can just say, well, it could happen anywhere, because in fact that is quite unlikely. The odds of a women being stoned to death for adultery in Manhattan, or London, or Melbourne are very slim. 

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


The second thing to realise is that in a country where law and order is poor or non-existent, life is cheap and there is great inequality, you can pretty much do as you please until someone else does as they please. Imagine paedophile priests being able to hire hit men to silence their former victims, or place sever economic pressure on their families.

Yes indeed, and I think this is part of the same issue. A reversion to uneducated tribal instincts is at odds with a modern secular society, and the same sorts of efforts will be needed to bring about a better existence.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


The third thing to realise is that the neo-missionary preaching of holier-than-thou westerners is extremely irritating. When combined with military invasions and economic pressure, or used to white wash these two with a moral justification, the above two groups can appeal to 'backwardness' in order to garner support or white wash whatever it is they want to do.

I don't think it is preaching at all to condemn such practices. This is a human rights issue. Such behaviors are completely indefensible in our small, tightly wired world, one awash in information. It may be non PC to say so, but some areas are backward- that's just the way history has played things out, and it is nothing to do with race or ethnicity. 300 Years ago, Europeans were burning witches at the stake. This has since been reconsidered. In Saudi Arabia, one can still be arrested for witchcraft however, today. This hangover of tribal and mythological belief can catalyze the sort of violence and xenophobia that is in the above links.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2014 at 02:02
Somehow I knew this topic was opened by Captain Vancouver LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2014 at 03:40
Fantasus wrote:
Quote "And this case was about a death sentence, that is about the people in power, not about any individual "mad man".
 
Mate you've lost the plot. In the countries we're discussing, the "mad men" are the people in power.
 
There is no justification at all for permitting the atrocities, that we seem to hear about on a regular basis, at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2014 at 09:26
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Fantasus wrote:
Quote "And this case was about a death sentence, that is about the people in power, not about any individual "mad man".
 
Mate you've lost the plot. In the countries we're discussing, the "mad men" are the people in power.
 
There is no justification at all for permitting the atrocities, that we seem to hear about on a regular basis, at all.
We are here not in a postion here either to "permit" or the opposite. And I doubt most of those people making such decision necessarily can be diagnosed,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2014 at 12:13
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Fantasus wrote:
Quote "And this case was about a death sentence, that is about the people in power, not about any individual "mad man".

 

Mate you've lost the plot. In the countries we're discussing, the "mad men" are the people in power.

 

There is no justification at all for permitting the atrocities, that we seem to hear about on a regular basis, at all.


Nailed it.
Especially in the Sudan case.

In the Pakistan case, Zardari killed his brother-in-law which is not much better, and although he is no longer in power Nawaz really isn't much different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2014 at 12:21
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Fantasus wrote:
Quote "And this case was about a death sentence, that is about the people in power, not about any individual "mad man".

 

Mate you've lost the plot. In the countries we're discussing, the "mad men" are the people in power.

 

There is no justification at all for permitting the atrocities, that we seem to hear about on a regular basis, at all.


Nailed it.
Especially in the Sudan case.

In the Pakistan case, Zardari killed his brother-in-law which is not much better, and although he is no longer in power Nawaz really isn't much different.
 
I have nothing but the deepest sympathy for people who are trapped by circumstances  over which they have no control, in those countries.
 
It's no wonder they risk their lives in leaky boats trying to get to other more liberal countries.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2014 at 12:41
Quote Yes, the media does like to sensationalize, but on the other hand, that doesn't mean the events aren't actually occurring. There is a criminal element in all countries, usually a small proportion of the population, but I don't think we can make a simple comparison here. In certain regions, discrimination and even violence against women is deeply embedded in the culture, and in some cases even written into law. There are no western countries that allow for crimes such as the Brevik case, mentioned above, or any of the similar outrages seen, either in law or in popular culture.

Don't get me wrong, I am not describing an entire region of the planet as medieval. I've known and worked with a number of people from the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent, and they have been the most pleasant one could ask for. There are, I'm sure, many millions across those regions that simply wish to go beyond this sort of nonsense.

But I also don't think we can just say, well, it could happen anywhere, because in fact that is quite unlikely. The odds of a women being stoned to death for adultery in Manhattan, or London, or Melbourne are very slim.

You are comparing are small subset of countries that are functioning with a large group comprising of nearly every other country. I mean what do Pakistan and Sudan have in common? Almost nothing. If I define a set of say 'white countries' that includes your western countries but also any other country I feel to throw in, like Eastern Europe, Russia, Mexico.,I could cherry pick the weird law here, the odd crime there, to make the whole region look backward.

The odds of a woman being stoned to death for adultery may be low, but the odds of a woman being murdered for cheating are not that low. Really you are just discriminating by the murder weapon.
Quote It may be non PC to say so, but some areas are backward- that's just the way history has played things out, and it is nothing to do with race or ethnicity. 300 Years ago, Europeans were burning witches at the stake. This has since been reconsidered. In Saudi Arabia, one can still be arrested for witchcraft however, today.

That is correct. But you are not making a serious attempt to understand why. You are throwing two totally unrelated events together with the implication that all these Middle Easterners are inferior
I would accept that the Sudanese government is backward, I don't think anyone would argue with that. Although from what I understand from Sudan if you keep away from the government you can live without too much interference. I do not know why this woman is facing a death penalty but I am sure the reason is far more complex and possible far more corrupt than this article makes out. Sudan is a disorderly country, laws like this are haphasardly enforced and usually used to punish or oppress people for other reasons (eg, refusing the advances of someone in power, needing a scapegoat, a distraction from some unpopular policy). I'll bet the Sudanese authorities are in fact being far more evil than you give them credit for.

Pakistan on the other hand is totally different. Pakistan, as a country, is neither backward nor afraid of change. Pakistan is corrupt, but highly diverse. In some areas it is more liberal than western countries (ie, recognition of third gender people), in other areas it is not. It has high illiteracy but also a large number of highly educated.

Honestly CV, I'm shocked that Canada still hasn't eliminated the death penalty in Oklahoma. Clearly the Danish moral standards are hypocritical because of such a barbaric act. I'll be petitioning my local member to ban all Scandinavian immigration.

Edited by Omar al Hashim - 29 May 2014 at 12:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2014 at 17:23
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Quote Yes, the media does like to sensationalize, but on the other hand, that doesn't mean the events aren't actually occurring. There is a criminal element in all countries, usually a small proportion of the population, but I don't think we can make a simple comparison here. In certain regions, discrimination and even violence against women is deeply embedded in the culture, and in some cases even written into law. There are no western countries that allow for crimes such as the Brevik case, mentioned above, or any of the similar outrages seen, either in law or in popular culture.

Don't get me wrong, I am not describing an entire region of the planet as medieval. I've known and worked with a number of people from the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent, and they have been the most pleasant one could ask for. There are, I'm sure, many millions across those regions that simply wish to go beyond this sort of nonsense.

But I also don't think we can just say, well, it could happen anywhere, because in fact that is quite unlikely. The odds of a women being stoned to death for adultery in Manhattan, or London, or Melbourne are very slim.

You are comparing are small subset of countries that are functioning with a large group comprising of nearly every other country. I mean what do Pakistan and Sudan have in common? Almost nothing. If I define a set of say 'white countries' that includes your western countries but also any other country I feel to throw in, like Eastern Europe, Russia, Mexico.,I could cherry pick the weird law here, the odd crime there, to make the whole region look backward.

I am not lumping countries together per se, but noting that on the field of sociological and human development, there are definite lagers, and there is significant evidence to support this stand. Some behaviors are more blatant than others. Russia, for example, is in a poor state due to the strong influence there of organized crime, and former secret police thugs. If the "Tea Party" ever gains true power in the US, we can be sure to see a number of social indicators in backward motion. Some areas are even more problematic.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


The odds of a woman being stoned to death for adultery may be low, but the odds of a woman being murdered for cheating are not that low. Really you are just discriminating by the murder weapon.

No, I'm talking about more than just a murder weapon. I'm talking about a social climate that creates, or at least passively accepts violent behaviors that most in the modern world have attempted to move beyond. No one in the secular world accepts the idea of killing women for having sex outside of a marriage relationship. To look at it another way, if, let's say in the US there were a great many among the rural and less educated that did indeed support killing women for sex outside marriage, and there were many police and other officials in such areas that shared these sentiments, and some local governments had actually passed laws in support of such notions, then how many more women would be killed in the US? Yep, the figures on the graph would be climbing straight up.

We are not talking about individual crimes of passion or demented reasoning, but a subset of society that believes such actions are quite OK. 

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


Quote It may be non PC to say so, but some areas are backward- that's just the way history has played things out, and it is nothing to do with race or ethnicity. 300 Years ago, Europeans were burning witches at the stake. This has since been reconsidered. In Saudi Arabia, one can still be arrested for witchcraft however, today.

That is correct. But you are not making a serious attempt to understand why. You are throwing two totally unrelated events together with the implication that all these Middle Easterners are inferior
I would accept that the Sudanese government is backward, I don't think anyone would argue with that. Although from what I understand from Sudan if you keep away from the government you can live without too much interference. I do not know why this woman is facing a death penalty but I am sure the reason is far more complex and possible far more corrupt than this article makes out. Sudan is a disorderly country, laws like this are haphasardly enforced and usually used to punish or oppress people for other reasons (eg, refusing the advances of someone in power, needing a scapegoat, a distraction from some unpopular policy). I'll bet the Sudanese authorities are in fact being far more evil than you give them credit for.

Again, I am not lumping together all  people from the Middle East, or any where else. But writing off such events as just anomalies, that could and probably do happen anywhere is, IMO, dodging the issue. Tribalism, and unseemly tribal attitudes do exist in a number of places in the world. And these sort of events aren't small in number. This from the BBC:

• In 2013, 869 women murdered in so called "honour killings"

• Campaigners say real number is likely to be much higher

• Of these, 359 were so called "Karo Kari" cases, whereby family members consider themselves authorised to kill offending relatives to restore honour

• Rights groups say conviction rate in cases of sexual and other violence against women is "critically low"

Source: Human Rights Commission of Pakistan annual report 2013

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-27622232


This concerning sharia law in Pakistan:

"Abuses under the country’s abusive blasphemy law continued as dozens were charged in 2012 and at least 16 people remained on death row for blasphemy, while another 20 servedlife sentences. Aasia Bibi, a Christian from Punjab province, who in 2010 became the first woman in the country's history to be sentenced to death for blasphemy, continued to languish in prison. In July 2012, police arrested a man who appeared to suffer from a mental disability for allegedly burningthe Quran. A mob organized by local clerics demandedthat the man be handed to them, attackedthe police station, pulled the victim out, and burned him alive."

http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/pakistan?page=1


This from a women's rights organization in Pakistan:

Karo-kari is part of the cultural tradition in Pakistan and means "black male" (Karo) and "black female (Kari), standing for adulterer and adulteress. Once labeled as a Kari, male family members get the self-authorized justification to kill her and the co-accused Karo, 'to restore family honor'. In Pakistan’s rural areas, male tribal councils (Jirgas) decide the fate of women who bring dishonor to their family. This centuries old custom for dealing with women is protected by powerful feudal landlords and tribal elders. In 2009, 472 cases of honour killings were reported - 91 in Punjab; 220 in Sindh; 32 in NWFP; 127 in Balochistan; 2 in Islamabad. Tragically, only in the rarest cases are the perpetrators brought to justice. Undocumented and unreported killings in the name of honour are often bolstered by governmental indifference, discriminatory laws and negligence on the part of Pakistan’s police force and judiciary.

http://www.pakistaniwomen.org/

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Pakistan on the other hand is totally different. Pakistan, as a country, is neither backward nor afraid of change. Pakistan is corrupt, but highly diverse. In some areas it is more liberal than western countries (ie, recognition of third gender people), in other areas it is not. It has high illiteracy but also a large number of highly educated.

Honestly CV, I'm shocked that Canada still hasn't eliminated the death penalty in Oklahoma. Clearly the Danish moral standards are hypocritical because of such a barbaric act. I'll be petitioning my local member to ban all Scandinavian immigration.

Of course Pakistan is a big place, and there are plenty of educated and progressive people there. But it is also a country with immense problems, and one of them is how to deal with tribal minorities that want to retreat into a barbaric and uneducated past. This is no small matter for the places affected, or for the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 04:27
Omar wrote:
Quote The odds of a woman being stoned to death for adultery may be low, but the odds of a woman being murdered for cheating are not that low. Really you are just discriminating by the murder weapon.
 
So how about we discriminate on the basis that such punishments are often a feature of Sharia Law?
 
How about we discriminate on the basis that it is apparently acceptable to the government and to the rest of that community?
 
How about we discriminate on the basis of Human Rights?
 
How about we discriminate on the basis of the absolute cruelty?
 
If one women dies, by any means, simply for wanting to choose her own sexual partner or husband, it is too many.
 
Allahu Akbar, but apparently not great enough to prevent these atrocities.
 
 
 
 


Edited by toyomotor - 30 May 2014 at 06:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 10:59
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Omar wrote:
Quote The odds of a woman being stoned to death for adultery may be low, but the odds of a woman being murdered for cheating are not that low. Really you are just discriminating by the murder weapon.



 

So how about we discriminate on the basis that such punishments are often a feature of Sharia Law?

 

How about we discriminate on the basis that it is apparently acceptable to the government and to the rest of that community?

 

How about we discriminate on the basis of Human Rights?

 

How about we discriminate on the basis of the absolute cruelty?

 

If one women dies, by any means, simply for wanting to choose her own sexual partner or husband, it is too many.

 

Allahu Akbar, but apparently not great enough to prevent these atrocities.

 

 

 

 


The perpetrators have been arrested or are being hunted by the police. They will face murder charges. What more can you ask for?

Are you going to blame common law for the murder of Jill Meagher? Is it apparently acceptable to the government and the rest of the community that she was killed? Does this reflect on Australia's human rights? Haven't the Pakistani police done exactly the same as the Victorian police? Arrest the culprits for murder?
So on what basis do you attack Pakistan other than racism?

(http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-19/adrian-bayley-to-be-sentenced-for-jill-meagher-murder/4763698)

How about the death of Resa Barati? Does that reflect on Australia's human rights? Is it apparently acceptable to the government and the rest of the community that he was killed? Has the Pakistani government ever covered up the murder of a refugee in an offshore Pakistani government refugee camp? Or does Pakistan accept tens of millions of refugees? Can you seriously with a straight face believe that the murder of a woman in a domestic violence incident is indicative of the backward values of the whole middle east while the murder of a man in a state facility by state officials is not indicative of backward values in the whole west?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-28/manus-riot-png-police-respond-to-report/5485116
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 11:10
Several cases where pakistanis demands death or other draconic sentenses  because of vague accusations of "insulting" religion or prophets immediately come up in memory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 11:30
Originally posted by CV CV wrote:

I am not lumping countries together per se, but noting that on the field of sociological and human development, there are definite lagers, and there is significant evidence to support this stand. Some behaviors are more blatant than others. Russia, for example, is in a poor state due to the strong influence there of organized crime, and former secret police thugs. If the "Tea Party" ever gains true power in the US, we can be sure to see a number of social indicators in backward motion. Some areas are even more problematic.

You are confusing economic development with people having the same beliefs and morals as you presently think are good.
There is a relationship between economic wealth, liberal morals, and state security. It is very complex and cannot merely be glossed over in a paragraph. Which one leads the other? Is it consistant in different countries and periods?
Quote No, I'm talking about more than just a murder weapon. I'm talking about a social climate that creates, or at least passively accepts violent behaviors that most in the modern world have attempted to move beyond. No one in the secular world accepts the idea of killing women for having sex outside of a marriage relationship. To look at it another way, if, let's say in the US there were a great many among the rural and less educated that did indeed support killing women for sex outside marriage, and there were many police and other officials in such areas that shared these sentiments, and some local governments had actually passed laws in support of such notions, then how many more women would be killed in the US? Yep, the figures on the graph would be climbing straight up.

We are not talking about individual crimes of passion or demented reasoning, but a subset of society that believes such actions are quite OK.

What the hell are you talking about CV? The crime in Pakistan you are talking about is exactly an "individual crimes of passion or demented reasoning".

You're drifting from a murder to suggesting that adultory is just A'Ok. Adultory is not ok. It is not ok in the west, it is not ok in the east, and it is not ok in the middle. Most countries consider it a civil offense and punish it according to the values of that society. That has been true for thousands of years.

Quote Again, I am not lumping together all people from the Middle East, or any where else. But writing off such events as just anomalies, that could and probably do happen anywhere is, IMO, dodging the issue.

I have explained the issue to you exactly but you refuse to accept it. The issue is economic poverty, corruption caused by self-serving elites, violence caused by instability and invasion of neighbouring countries (by your country I believe), and ineffective government control.
Quote
This concerning sharia law in Pakistan:
Pakistan is common law country! Same as Canada. Clearly this is indicitive of the Canadian legal system as well.
Quote But it is also a country with immense problems, and one of them is how to deal with tribal minorities that want to retreat into a barbaric and uneducated past.

You and Carcharodon (if he's still around) both use the word tribal in different but very odd ways. The tribal regions of Pakistan are subject to the laws of Pakistan but largely autonomous in many affairs. The tribes can be more or less liberal than the rest of the country but are essentially a democratic unit of local government with a long history and the military strength to defend themselves. They are not barbaric, not necessarily uneducated (there is diversity), and you cannot deal with them.

Pakistan does have many problems. They are related in my opinion to two major factors:
1) War in Afghanistan.
2) Political and Police corruption.
If you deal with them then Pakistan has huge economic potential.

(FYI, some tribes like the Mehsud fight against the Americans while others like the Afridi tolerate the Americans)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 11:35
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Several cases where pakistanis demands death or other draconic sentenses  because of vague accusations of "insulting" religion or prophets immediately come up in memory.

So what?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 12:07
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Several cases where pakistanis demands death or other draconic sentenses  because of vague accusations of "insulting" religion or prophets immediately come up in memory.

So what?
Well, You started to discuss Pakistan Yourself, so why not follow up?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 12:16
Omar- your reference to Jill Meagher is both incredibly insulting and at the same time stupid.
 
The community and government have both expressed horror at her murder-it was not acceptable to anyone, except perhaps to you.
 
As for Resa Barati, he was not killed by an Australian, nor on Australian soil- get your facts straight!
 
For my own part in this debate, I've never mentioned Pakistan or anywhere else in particular, but the Pakistan government and all of its elements are so corrupt that any announcement made is met with suspicion and disdain.
 
As for
Quote Can you seriously with a straight face believe that the murder of a woman in a domestic violence incident is indicative of the backward values of the whole middle east while the murder of a man in a state facility by state officials is not indicative of backward values in the whole west?
 
Mistreatment of women is endemic to many, if not most, Islamic countries, and persists when Muslims migrate to western countries.
 
When using the word "racism", beware of calling the kettle black.
 
On this forum, you're entitled to be a racist if you want, not that you appear to require any permission or assistance in that regard.
 
And in response to Fantasus' post, the so what is that it is a further indication, not that any is needed,
of government and community acceptance of medieval laws and punishments.
 
That's so what!!
 
I hope you aren't currently enjoying the freedoms of Australia, if you are, perhaps it's time for you to return to your birthplace or that of your ancestors, because the attitude you display is not that of the average Australian and is not welcome.
 
 
 


Edited by toyomotor - 30 May 2014 at 12:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 13:18
Quote Omar- your reference to Jill Meagher is both incredibly insulting and at the same time stupid.


The community and government have both expressed horror at her murder-it was not acceptable to anyone, except perhaps to you.

That's exactly the point Toyo, how is one horrific crime worse than another?
I'm not saying either of them are acceptable, I'm saying both are horrific and you can't use horrific crimes like this as a starting point to discuss the issues with a country. It's totally unfair.
Quote As for Resa Barati, he was not killed by an Australian, nor on Australian soil- get your facts straight!

Australia is 100% culpable for his death.
But regardless, I am not really interested in that, I am only trying to show the difference between a death that does prompt questions to be asked about a countries human rights record and a death that doesn't.
Quote For my own part in this debate, I've never mentioned Pakistan or anywhere else in particular, but the Pakistan government and all of its elements are so corrupt that any announcement made is met with suspicion and disdain.

Yeah that's true. I was probably too harsh to you.
Actually I agree with pretty much everything you've said up to now.
Quote And in response to Fantasus' post, the so what is that it is a further indication, not that any is needed,

of government and community acceptance of medieval laws and punishments.

The "so what" is exasperation at hearing an oft repeated critism. You know what, there is huge issues with medieval practices in Pakistan, but it's not the murder rates or retograde blasphemy laws. These are effects of injustice and poverty. The real kicker is the feudal system. A system whereby people work as serfs on a landlord's land, their votes are controlled by the landlord, educated denied to them. The real issue is over 30% illiteracy (in some provences it is over 80%). The real issue is a system where virtually the entire middle class has left in the last 40 years. The real issue a an economy where a RPG is cheaper than a car. Why is there community acceptance?
1) Because the radicals have guns.
2) Because huge numbers are ignorant of any other way
3) Because most people are too busy trying to survive or get out.
4) Because what has been highlighted so far are in fact not the biggest issue people are facing.

I'm not trying to whitewash life and make it seem like a perfect country. It is far from that. I just object to people taking individual horrific murders and using that to discuss what's wrong with the country.

I'm also talking about Pakistan because I know next to nothing about Sudan and those were the two countries mentioned in the opening post.

Quote I hope you aren't currently enjoying the freedoms of Australia, if you are, perhaps it's time for you to return to your birthplace or that of your ancestors, because the attitude you display is not that of the average Australian and is not welcome.

I'm sixth generation Australian, you're stuck with me.
My ancestors are from Tasmania though so maybe I could go hang with you. They had one of the first flour mills in Launceston. Where are you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 13:34
Like, do you remember Mukhtar Mai? She was ganged raped in a clan fued.
She initially got justice, her attackers and the organisers were sentenced to death and she was compensated. That would have been the end of the story, except that she used the compensation money to set up a school in her village.
That school because it educated the poor was a threat to the local landlord who used his money and power to influence the court and overturn her attackers trial, both releasing them and stripping Mukhtar and the school of the money. This was subsequently reported as a gross violation of womens rights and evidence that women are merely chattle but while that was a consequence it was not the cause. Women's rights were collateral damage in the landlord's control of the serfs on his land. Ultimately it was about feudalism, corruption, and money.
That is why backward views are tolerated in Pakistan. Because they support the profits of the rich.
Religious extremism is also useful, because communists are atheists. All the easier to shut Tariq Ali up by questioning his morals than his point. But, extremism is also a threat to the wealthy in Pakistan. The Taliban are not feudal or tribal, so they are only tolerated so far.

Does that make sense? I'm not apologising for anything mentioned, I'm just trying to put this in context because I feel that the truth is in fact much worse and much less backward than has been made out by CV.

Edited by Omar al Hashim - 30 May 2014 at 13:37
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