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Fear and Consequences

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 14:55
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

The "so what" is exasperation at hearing an oft repeated critism. You know what, there is huge issues with medieval practices in Pakistan, but it's not the murder rates or retograde blasphemy laws. These are effects of injustice and poverty. The real kicker is the feudal system. A system whereby people work as serfs on a landlord's land, their votes are controlled by the landlord, educated denied to them. The real issue is over 30% illiteracy (in some provences it is over 80%). The real issue is a system where virtually the entire middle class has left in the last 40 years. The real issue a an economy where a RPG is cheaper than a car. Why is there community acceptance?
1) Because the radicals have guns.
2) Because huge numbers are ignorant of any other way
3) Because most people are too busy trying to survive or get out.
4) Because what has been highlighted so far are in fact not the biggest issue people are facing.

I'm not trying to whitewash life and make it seem like a perfect country. It is far from that. I just object to people taking individual horrific murders and using that to discuss what's wrong with the country.

Though You are probably right in some sense those property issues directly affects most pakistanis in their daily life, I am not so sure about what You seems to conclude from that. Is big crimes to be ignored or downplayed because only a very small proportion of population is directly hit? All minorities is by definition less numerous than the majority, but that is not to what the later suffers from is to be ignored?  Then also I see some problems as being of more "internal" nature and interest than others.  Trying to solve all the worlds problems at once may not be the best way.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 17:24
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


You are confusing economic development with people having the same beliefs and morals as you presently think are good.
There is a relationship between economic wealth, liberal morals, and state security. It is very complex and cannot merely be glossed over in a paragraph. Which one leads the other? Is it consistant in different countries and periods?

Yes, there are complexities to this issue, but the fact stands that some regions of the earth remain little short of alarming in the attitudes and facts of the day to day lives of some or most of the inhabitants. Economic development plays into this, but is certainly not the sole problem. Cuba is relatively poor and politically repressed, but socially progressive. Bhutan is dirt poor, but peaceful and harmonious. It's not all about money.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


What the hell are you talking about CV? The crime in Pakistan you are talking about is exactly an "individual crimes of passion or demented reasoning".

In one case you have a crime committed that is not only contrary to law, but also to public sentiment, in all but a tiny fringe, most of whom probably troubled by psychological or emotional issues of their own.

On the other, you have a crime committed that is in accordance with some regional laws, and has at least some significant public support in those areas, if not, in some cases, fairly widespread support. The difference is stark.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


You're drifting from a murder to suggesting that adultory is just A'Ok. Adultory is not ok. It is not ok in the west, it is not ok in the east, and it is not ok in the middle. Most countries consider it a civil offense and punish it according to the values of that society. That has been true for thousands of years.

Omar, I hope you have you been finding time to get out after work, and have some downtime? Because I can assure you that, at least in your captain's region, and I'm pretty sure in most of the western world, adultery is a term receding into that zone reserved for corsets, bathing  machines, chaperons at teen dances, and other items now considered quaint but no longer applicable. Relationships today are what ever people say they are, as long as no one is being  taken advantage of. Around here you could have a three way relationship going with your neighbor's wife and her pet German Shepard, and no one would much comment, if that's what all thought enjoyable, and the police would certainly not be knocking on your door.

Contrast this with an hysterical mob smashing down your door, and beating you to death. That's what I mean by some areas being "backward".

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:



I have explained the issue to you exactly but you refuse to accept it. The issue is economic poverty, corruption caused by self-serving elites, violence caused by instability and invasion of neighbouring countries (by your country I believe), and ineffective government control.


Yes, these are all factors. So are the social and psychological responses of those under such stress.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Pakistan is common law country! Same as Canada. Clearly this is indicitive of the Canadian legal system as well.

Versions of sharia law are practiced in some regions of Pakistan, as they are in other places in the world, and these often discriminate terribly against women, not to mention endorsing other barbaric practices, such as killing people for "blasphemy". Backward is actually a mild term to use here.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:



You and Carcharodon (if he's still around) both use the word tribal in different but very odd ways. The tribal regions of Pakistan are subject to the laws of Pakistan but largely autonomous in many affairs. The tribes can be more or less liberal than the rest of the country but are essentially a democratic unit of local government with a long history and the military strength to defend themselves. They are not barbaric, not necessarily uneducated (there is diversity), and you cannot deal with them.

You may consider stoning people for adultery, or killing them for blasphemy as liberal, but I'd say millions would disagree with you.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


Pakistan does have many problems. They are related in my opinion to two major factors:
1) War in Afghanistan.
2) Political and Police corruption.
If you deal with them then Pakistan has huge economic potential.

I'd agree with your list, and add: overpopulation, lack of infrastructure and industrial development, lack of resources, little history of a civil society, animosity between ethnic groups, and a lack of widespread education, which further reinforces a retreat into magical and mystical beliefs, and a greater acceptance of violent behavior than would otherwise be the case.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


(FYI, some tribes like the Mehsud fight against the Americans while others like the Afridi tolerate the Americans)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2014 at 01:46
Ok I conceed. I am being overly optimistic and you guys are mostly right. I was reading through Karachi Dawn (the newspaper).
My main issue is that I don't want it to be as widespread as it is. I do feel though that women's rights is singled out by the press when it's everybodies rights that are lacking. Women's rights are one component of a broken society.

Edited by Omar al Hashim - 31 May 2014 at 01:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2014 at 01:57
Quote
Yes, there are complexities to this issue, but the fact stands that some regions of the earth remain little short of alarming in the attitudes and facts of the day to day lives of some or most of the inhabitants. Economic development plays into this, but is certainly not the sole problem. Cuba is relatively poor and politically repressed, but socially progressive. Bhutan is dirt poor, but peaceful and harmonious. It's not all about money.

I believe the key difference is security. If you have a police force that works, a judiciary that is compassionate, and a government that at least cares a little bit then the weak get a voice and a country becomes fairer. Gradually though, over the course of 50 years or so.
Quote Versions of sharia law are practiced in some regions of Pakistan, as they are in other places in the world, and these often discriminate terribly against women, not to mention endorsing other barbaric practices, such as killing people for "blasphemy". Backward is actually a mild term to use here.

The issue is not whether it is sharia or not. The issue is whether it exists or not. Sharia should not be like that. It should be stamped out regardless of justification.
Quote
Quote You and Carcharodon (if he's still around) both use the word tribal in different but very odd ways. The tribal regions of Pakistan are subject to the laws of Pakistan but largely autonomous in many affairs. The tribes can be more or less liberal than the rest of the country but are essentially a democratic unit of local government with a long history and the military strength to defend themselves. They are not barbaric, not necessarily uneducated (there is diversity), and you cannot deal with them.

You may consider stoning people for adultery, or killing them for blasphemy as liberal, but I'd say millions would disagree with you

My point is that this is not because they are tribal. A tribal organisation doesn't determine their backwardness. I would say the Taliban and feudal regions are far more backward but they are not tribal.
Quote I'd agree with your list, and add: overpopulation, lack of infrastructure and industrial development, lack of resources, little history of a civil society, animosity between ethnic groups, and a lack of widespread education, which further reinforces a retreat into magical and mystical beliefs, and a greater acceptance of violent behavior than would otherwise be the case.

I agree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2014 at 02:01
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:


Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

The "so what" is exasperation at hearing an oft repeated critism. You know what, there is huge issues with medieval practices in Pakistan, but it's not the murder rates or retograde blasphemy laws. These are effects of injustice and poverty. The real kicker is the feudal system. A system whereby people work as serfs on a landlord's land, their votes are controlled by the landlord, educated denied to them. The real issue is over 30% illiteracy (in some provences it is over 80%). The real issue is a system where virtually the entire middle class has left in the last 40 years. The real issue a an economy where a RPG is cheaper than a car. Why is there community acceptance?
1) Because the radicals have guns.
2) Because huge numbers are ignorant of any other way
3) Because most people are too busy trying to survive or get out.
4) Because what has been highlighted so far are in fact not the biggest issue people are facing.

I'm not trying to whitewash life and make it seem like a perfect country. It is far from that. I just object to people taking individual horrific murders and using that to discuss what's wrong with the country.


Though You are probably right in some sense those property issues directly affects most pakistanis in their daily life, I am not so sure about what You seems to conclude from that. Is big crimes to be ignored or downplayed because only a very small proportion of population is directly hit? All minorities is by definition less numerous than the majority, but that is not to what the later suffers from is to be ignored?  Then also I see some problems as being of more "internal" nature and interest than others.  Trying to solve all the worlds problems at once may not be the best way.


I would say that because the majority have no voice the minority can do as they please.
The police are non-functional and do not enforce law. Therefore people can and do get away with a lot until the raise the attention of someone else with more power. And those with no power get screwed over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2014 at 02:10
Quote Omar, I hope you have you been finding time to get out after work, and have some downtime? Because I can assure you that, at least in your captain's region, and I'm pretty sure in most of the western world, adultery is a term receding into that zone reserved for corsets, bathing machines, chaperons at teen dances, and other items now considered quaint but no longer applicable. Relationships today are what ever people say they are, as long as no one is being taken advantage of. Around here you could have a three way relationship going with your neighbor's wife and her pet German Shepard, and no one would much comment, if that's what all thought enjoyable, and the police would certainly not be knocking on your door.

Hmmm, I understand your sentiment, sexual morality in developed countries is mostly a personal choice and it is not the business of the state or society. This is a good thing, I do not believe the state should be in people's bedrooms.

However you are actually wrong on the specifics. If you had such a relationship the police would be knocking at your door! Beastality is a crime in Canada that can receive 10 years jail. There was a case in Vancouver just a year or so ago. Polygamy also is still illegal in Canada and adultery is listed in law as grounds for divorce. So, if your wife was of a particularly liberal bent then yes you could commit adultery with no issue but I am yet to meet such a woman.

Edited by Omar al Hashim - 31 May 2014 at 02:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2014 at 02:31
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:



However you are actually wrong on the specifics. If you had such a relationship the police would be knocking at your door! Beastality is a crime in Canada that can receive 10 years jail. There was a case in Vancouver just a year or so ago.

OK, I was exaggerating about the German Shepard. Although there is one lurid story I could tell you, but not one appropriate for the internet.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Polygamy also is still illegal in Canada and adultery is listed in law as grounds for divorce. So, if your wife was of a particularly liberal bent then yes you could commit adultery with no issue

I don't think "adultery" has been used as a grounds for divorce in Canada since about 1974 or so. Could be wrong.


Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

 but I am yet to meet such a woman.

If you ever visit this part of the world Omar, look your captain up in the directories, and I will introduce you to some interesting people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2014 at 02:53
Omar wrote:
Quote Honestly CV, I'm shocked that Canada still hasn't eliminated the death penalty in Oklahoma. Clearly the Danish moral standards are hypocritical because of such a barbaric act. I'll be petitioning my local member to ban all Scandinavian immigration.
 
1. Oklahoma is in the USA, Canada has no authority over it;
 
2. Where do the Danes come into it?
 
You've told me that you're sixth generation Australian, and yet you still defend the barbaric laws in Muslim countries.
 
That you do so, is the reason that some people, like P.H. for example, are anti-immigrant, or racist. Of course you're entitled to your own views on anything, but, given your nationality, I'm very disappointed.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2014 at 03:51
I am not and do not wish to give the appearance that I am defending the laws. In fact in the Pakistan case it is against the law* but the laws are not sufficiently enforced.

I only wish to ensure that blame is placed on the people responsible and is not spread to innocent people who are just as horrified by events. The point of that paragraph was to say there is no connection between Pakistan and Sudan or the Middle East



*Another reason I am not talking about Sudan. Because it wasn't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2014 at 04:15
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Polygamy also is still illegal in Canada and adultery is listed in law as grounds for divorce. So, if your wife was of a particularly liberal bent then yes you could commit adultery with no issue

I don't think "adultery" has been used as a grounds for divorce in Canada since about 1974 or so. Could be wrong.

I guess that you don't have to show a reason for the divorce anymore but I'd think that there are lots of divorces caused by cheating partners.



Originally posted by CV CV wrote:


Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

 but I am yet to meet such a woman.

If you ever visit this part of the world Omar, look your captain up in the directories, and I will introduce you to some interesting people.

Done. I'd happily catch up with you. I've been to Ontario but not to the west.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 31 May 2014 at 04:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2014 at 08:44
Omar wrote:
Quote I guess that you don't have to show a reason for the divorce anymore but I'd think that there are lots of divorces caused by cheating partners.
 
But you're now trying to rationalise western divorce against Islamic execution?
 
Of course there are divorces caused by infidelity, it could even be the cause of most divorces, I don't know, but I don't understand the point you're trying to make.
 
There's no comparison between the Christian and Islamic consequences for carnal connection with a person to whom you're not married.
 
Mate, you're in deep doo doo, perhaps it would be better to just quietly move onto another subject.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2014 at 08:54
Captain wrote:
Quote Around here you could have a three way relationship going with your neighbour's wife and her pet German Shepard, and no one would much comment, if that's what all thought enjoyable, and the police would certainly not be knocking on your door.
 
Well for that sort of activity I might just support stoning.
 
Mistreatment of animals is also a crime.
 
Pleased I don't live in your neighbourhood Captain.Clown
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 02:18
Quote
Quote I guess that you don't have to show a reason for the divorce anymore but I'd think that there are lots of divorces caused by cheating partners.

Of course there are divorces caused by infidelity, it could even be the cause of most divorces, I don't know, but I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

But you're now trying to rationalise western divorce against Islamic execution?

No. CV implied that adultery was perfectly fine in western societies, which it isn't, and then we diverged onto how adultery is covered in modern canadian law.

The only point I was making was that CV was overestimating how liberal most westerners are.
Quote
There's no comparison between the Christian and Islamic consequences for carnal connection with a person to whom you're not married.


Now you're going to far. The Christian and Islamic positions on adultery are very similar to the point of being almost identical. The only big difference is that Islam permits divorce and Christanity doesn't.

What you mean to say is there is no comparision between the consequences in educated safe countries to those in small pockets of poor dangerous countries.

Justice is the single most important thing in Islamic Law. If it is not just it is not Islamic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 03:10
Omar wrote:
Quote Now you're going to far. The Christian and Islamic positions on adultery are very similar to the point of being almost identical. The only big difference is that Islam permits divorce and Christanity doesn't.

What you mean to say is there is no comparison between the consequences in educated safe countries to those in small pockets of poor dangerous countries.

Justice is the single most important thing in Islamic Law. If it is not just it is not Islamic.
 
1. They may be identical to some extent, in the western world there is no state penalty-as you should know.
 
2. It's only the Roman Catholic Church which doesn't permit divorce. The rest of the Christian doctrines permit it-you should also know this.
 
3. In the Christian world there are also less well off countries, and they don't discriminate in this manner.
 
4. So, you maintain that to stone someone to death for "adultry" is justice. To behead someone for wanting to choose their own partner is justice.
 
Although you claim to be Australian, you hold some pretty radical views which are not supported by mainstream Australia.
 
It's easy to see, imo, that you've been effectively brainwashed by someone, and I hope that there's not many other Australian who hold your views.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 03:15
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Captain wrote:
Quote Around here you could have a three way relationship going with your neighbour's wife and her pet German Shepard, and no one would much comment, if that's what all thought enjoyable, and the police would certainly not be knocking on your door.
 
Well for that sort of activity I might just support stoning.
 
Mistreatment of animals is also a crime.
 
Pleased I don't live in your neighbourhood Captain.Clown

So far I have heard barking, but no whining. Some marriages could only hope for so much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 03:18
Two more obscene examples which fall into this category:
 
1. A Sudanese women is facing the death penalty for renouncing Islam, and converting to Christianity in order to marry a Christian; and
 
2. A missionary in North Korea is facing life imprisonment for holding non-state sanctioned Church gatherings, and insulting Kim Jung Un.
 
Anyone-how can these possibly be justified in the modern world?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 03:43
These events come from different sources. The North Korea case is just what can happened under a dictatorship governed by a psychopath. In such regimes, the "big brother" do as it wished and the people has no saying on it.

In the case of Sudan, and the infinite number of violations to human rights in the name of Islam that happen daily in Islam intoxicated countries, the problem there is the fascism inherent in all Abrahamic religions, but particularly in Islam. Islam is a region of voluntary submission to God, and to any analphabet  Mullah, Imam or idiot with complex of inferiority that goes around in those backward countries.




Edited by pinguin - 01 Jun 2014 at 03:44
A point of view from the antipodes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 03:55
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

These events come from different sources. The North Korea case is just what can happened under a dictatorship governed by a psychopath. In such regimes, the "big brother" do as it wished and the people has no saying on it.

In the case of Sudan, and the infinite number of violations to human rights in the name of Islam that happen daily in Islam intoxicated countries, the problem there is the fascism inherent in all Abrahamic religions, but particularly in Islam. Islam is a region of voluntary submission to God, and to any analphabet  Mullah, Imam or idiot with complex of inferiority that goes around in those backward countries.

 
I see.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 10:39
Originally posted by toyo toyo wrote:

2. It's only the Roman Catholic Church which doesn't permit divorce. The rest of the Christian doctrines permit it-you should also know this.

Yes. The Islamised versions of Christanity such as the Protestant sects have adopted many Muslim beliefs.
Quote
3. In the Christian world there are also less well off countries, and they don't discriminate in this manner.

Poo. The christian countries in subsaharan africa have views and practices just as backward.
Even in more advanced regions like South Korea and the Phillipines adultery is still punished by jail time.
Quote 4. So, you maintain that to stone someone to death for "adultry" is justice. To behead someone for wanting to choose their own partner is justice.

I said if it is not just it is not Islamic. Do you think it's just?
Quote Although you claim to be Australian, you hold some pretty radical views which are not supported by mainstream Australia.
 
It's easy to see, imo, that you've been effectively brainwashed by someone, and I hope that there's not many other Australian who hold your views.

More poo.
I have expressed three opinions
1) Adultery is not acceptable but should not be punished by the state.
2) The blame for unjust and backward murders or laws should be placed on the people responsible. They should not be used to blame whole countries, societies or religions.
3) I accept that there are minorities in Pakistan, Sudan, and the Middle East who hold backward views.

If you think any of those views are 'radical' or 'not mainstream' then you are quite out of touch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 11:54
Omar, please go back over the posts on this thread and read what you actually wrote.
 
In your last post you've turned 180 degrees, changing your comments entirely.
 
As for the info you supplied in the last post, how to you figure that Henry Tudor conferred with Muslims before taking on the Pope over the control of the Church in England?
 
How did English law become Islamicised?
 
If you do some research, you'll find that the Church of England was born out of Henrys wish to rid himself of a wife so he could remarry-remember, the Pope refused to annul his marriage.
 
Which sub-Saharan Christian Countries are you talking about?
 
And I do blame the entire population of countries which permit these barbaric punishments. They always have the option to revolt against the mullahs and install more liberal governments.
 
Quote I have expressed three opinions

1) Adultery is not acceptable but should not be punished by the state.
2) The blame for unjust and backward murders or laws should be placed on the people responsible. They should not be used to blame whole countries, societies or religions.
3) I accept that there are minorities in Pakistan, Sudan, and the Middle East who hold backward views.

If you think any of those views are 'radical' or 'not mainstream' then you are quite out of touch.
 
1) This is not what you wrote earlier.
 
2) The blame for the unjust laws rests on the "governments" of the countries concerned and the people who permit them to rule.
 
3) I think you mean majority.
 
Inasmuch as you've completely reversed your comments, I simply restate that your views are un Australian.
 
 
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Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 13:17
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


1) This is not what you wrote earlier.

Quote
Omar, please go back over the posts on this thread and read what you actually wrote.


In your last post you've turned 180 degrees, changing your comments entirely.

All I changed my opinion on was the extent to which mysogynist laws exist in Pakistan.
Other than that if you've understood something else it isn't because I wrote it.

If you doubt it, prove it.
Quote As for the info you supplied in the last post, how to you figure that Henry Tudor conferred with Muslims before taking on the Pope over the control of the Church in England?

How did English law become Islamicised?

What is protestantism but Islam + the trinity? Speakingin terms of common beliefs and values that is.
Quote If you do some research, you'll find that the Church of England was born out of Henrys wish to rid himself of a wife so he could remarry-remember, the Pope refused to annul his marriage.

Obviously I am not saying all christians have always forbiddian divorce. History is long and opinions go back and forward. The Church of England is a great example for that, setup so the King can divorce and remarry which then subsequently went on to forbid divorce and remarriage, and then permit it again only recently.
Quote
Which sub-Saharan Christian Countries are you talking about?

Congo, Rwanda, Burundi, Uganda are all countries with massive problems of violence against women. All from the same causes as Pakistan. Lawlessness, conflict and poverty.
Quote
And I do blame the entire population of countries which permit these barbaric punishments. They always have the option to revolt against the mullahs and install more liberal governments.

Ha! Like the Arab Spring?
American money and guns ensures that no revolt in the middle east is successful.

Oppressed populations vote first for freedom so that their grandkids may enjoy liberalism.
Quote 3) I think you mean majority.

I do not.
Quote
Inasmuch as you've completely reversed your comments, I simply restate that your views are un Australian.

Watching too much of the Bolt report I think! Look! He said not all brown people are sexist and stood up for justice. Un-Australian! Can't have someone getting in the way of sl*gging off non-whites. What next? Will he defend aborigines? Un-australian.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 01 Jun 2014 at 13:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 17:45
I have enjoyed many discussions with you Omar, and I can see you haven't changed your ways a whole lot. Always a challenge to really understand what you mean...
Allow me to inject a few questions to your opinions stated above: 
Originally posted by Omar Omar wrote:

I have expressed three opinions

1) Adultery is not acceptable but should not be punished by the state.
2) The blame for unjust and backward murders or laws should be placed on the people responsible. They should not be used to blame whole countries, societies or religions.
3) I accept that there are minorities in Pakistan, Sudan, and the Middle East who hold backward views.

If you think any of those views are 'radical' or 'not mainstream' then you are quite out of touch. 

ad. 1. 
Adultery isn't acceptable and the state shouldn't punish those who commit adultery - then who should punish them then?
If your sister or wife slept with another married man, the Australian state wouldn't punish her.
Would you punish her? - and if yes, how would you punish her?
If no - who should punish her and how?

ad. 2. 
Fair enough - lets blame those who did it... But what about the countries, societies or religions that should blame, procecute and punish the murderers, neglect to do so - shouldn't we blame them for not doing so?

ad. 3.
Would you think these minorities are predominantly religious people?


   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 03:34
Omar: I look forward to your answers to Northmans questions.
 
How you can compare Islam with the Anglican Church, or the Protestant movement in general completely defeats me.
 
What really disappoints me is the fact that you claim to be sixth generation Australian. You've had the benefit of exposure to more liberal views on these matters, but you choose to cling to the archaic and barbaric ideas of Islam as regards to marital matters.
 
It's easy to see that you're trying to reverse your written comments now that you've attracted criticism from me and others, but it's too late. You're exposed as being a true misogynist, with barbaric views.
 
 
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 04:03
It is a fallacy to compare a Western (or Latin American) state to a Islamic state saying that the first are made of "Christians" and the second of "Muslims". The difference is that in the West the state is secular, and religion is a personal choice.

Even more, the West has expend around two centuries getting rid of the perverse influence of religion in civil society, and it won't get back from what has achieved. Believing Islam will ever replace the civil society in the West is just wishful thinking. First, the immigrants will be reprogrammed to think as citizens rather than as slaves of an hypothetical God nobody sees.

A Muslim in the West coming from an Islamic country either should accept the state is not a business of the closest Mullah... or pick his camel and go back home! There is no other way to resolve this.

And for women, shame on those backward populations of the word (Muslims, Indians from India, Chinese, sub-Saharan Africans, for instance) that still believe that having a penis and balls make men superior to woman!! Coming from a society that consider women our equals, and mothers even a mystical being, and thinking in the women in my own family, it is unacceptable for me to accept Muslims oppression on females. Perhaps it is time to hung the Mullahs that keep those machist traditions going on.




Edited by pinguin - 02 Jun 2014 at 04:09
A point of view from the antipodes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 04:33
Thanks Pinguin, well said.
 
I couldn't agree with you more. Clap
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 07:56
I don't think we can single out Islam per se, as all religion is just a projection of human needs and desires. The happy and well adjusted project a god that has a good set of values, and the chaotic and dysfunctional project a god that has similar attributes. The troubled Catholic priest that rationalizes his diddling of 13 year old boys is at one end of the spectrum, and the untroubled suburban family that infuses this belief system with basic humanist values is at the other. Both of course ignore the raging adolescent that is the main character in their sacred text. Or should I say novel?

So too with Islam. In areas that are a sociological mess, religion displays equal dysfunction. In more progressive areas, it is tempered to a large degree. It is the fate of Islam to be the religion of some of the most benighted parts of the planet today, and so this mythology has been conscripted and used by some of the most dysfunctional, for what are at the core, their own purposes, and certainly not the purpose of some science fiction being.

My curiosity here is that as we delve into the 21st century, some parts of the planet actually seem to be going backward, not forward, not even standing still. We have failed states, violence not seen for some time on the scales they are today, and a persistent belief in magic, despite having a world now drowning in information and the results of science research.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 09:46
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

I don't think we can single out Islam per se, as all religion is just a projection of human needs and desires. The happy and well adjusted project a god that has a good set of values, and the chaotic and dysfunctional project a god that has similar attributes. The troubled Catholic priest that rationalizes his diddling of 13 year old boys is at one end of the spectrum, and the untroubled suburban family that infuses this belief system with basic humanist values is at the other. Both of course ignore the raging adolescent that is the main character in their sacred text. Or should I say novel?

So too with Islam. In areas that are a sociological mess, religion displays equal dysfunction. In more progressive areas, it is tempered to a large degree. It is the fate of Islam to be the religion of some of the most benighted parts of the planet today, and so this mythology has been conscripted and used by some of the most dysfunctional, for what are at the core, their own purposes, and certainly not the purpose of some science fiction being.

My curiosity here is that as we delve into the 21st century, some parts of the planet actually seem to be going backward, not forward, not even standing still. We have failed states, violence not seen for some time on the scales they are today, and a persistent belief in magic, despite having a world now drowning in information and the results of science research.
 
And yet, some of the progressive Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia and Qatar still cling to the archaic laws.
 
And I agree with you that, in some ways, human kind seems to have regressed-could it be due to insecurity, politically and financially?
 
 
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 12:06
It is apparent to me that the purpose of this thread and the resolution which most of the participants want it to conclude is to say "My religion is better than your religion", "our people are wiser than your people".

To do this, events are selected and analysed that no-one in their right mind can defend or excuse. Care is taken to ignore any other factors that could contribute to the events e.g. socio-economic causes, conflict and violence, how well representitive the rulers are. The events are framed solely in the context of morality. The events are used as examples to show how backward the target religion is. The assumption is made that in any diverse group of people, say one encompassing over a fifth of the world's population, that only the most radical are representative of this group.

This sets the trap for members entering the thread. Members are either forced to agree that bad things are bad and by extention that the target religion is inferior, or can attempt to challenge the underlying and often unsaid assumptions made in the premise while still managing to agree that bad things are bad. A couple of tricks are useful in entrapping members of the second type. One is the secondary example. If another event is presented during the thread then this can be used to reinforce the opening post and by extension the assumptions in the premise and the conclusion that the target religion is inferior. Another trick is to get the member to admit that any particular bad thing is in fact no so bad. It does not have to be one of the events, in fact since those events are ones that no-one in their right mind can excuse, it's much easier to get them to admit to something else, even something unrelated, is in fact not so bad. This works to undermine the moral credibility of the member thereby allowing their objections to be dismissed.

Ultimately this will convey the sense of moral superiority of the adherents of the aggressor religion over the target religion.



Let me make my position on this thread clear:
I accept that bad things are bad.
I completely reject the assumptions and premise made that the bad things are linked to Islam.
I completely reject that your religion is better than my religion.

Ultimately discussions like this only serve to reinforce people in their preconcieved views. I will bow out of this discussion after this post as there is nothing else left to say. I will answer Northman's questions just to avoid accusations of dodging them. Although I will point out that attempting to undermine my credibility doesn't make the assumptions any more true.
Quote Adultery isn't acceptable and the state shouldn't punish those who commit adultery - then who should punish them then?
If your sister or wife slept with another married man, the Australian state wouldn't punish her.
Would you punish her? - and if yes, how would you punish her?
If no - who should punish her and how?

If my sister was married it is generally accepted in this country that would lead to divorce. The divorce is the punishment imposed by society and her husband and given that usually this results in emotional and financial stress it would be my responsibility to help her rebuild her life on a moral footing.
If my sister were unmarried it is unlikely I would ever find out, but if I did ultimately her punishment would like in the afterlife and the only thing I can contribute is to help her repent and build a solid foundation for her new life.
Quote Fair enough - lets blame those who did it... But what about the countries, societies or religions that should blame, procecute and punish the murderers, neglect to do so - shouldn't we blame them for not doing so?

In some countries like Australia or Denmark the majority view of society can significantly influence whether the murderers are blamed, procecuted and punished. In these countries, yes, perhaps some blame can be directed to the populace of the country at large. But even then that blame is diluted significantly. However in countries that are lawless or authoritarian the majority view, even if it's an overwhelming majority, can have little to no effect on whether the murderers are blamed, procecuted and punished. In this case it is unfair to blame the populace because they are powerless to prevent it. When attributing blame of course it is critically important to actually be aware of what the opinions of and actions are being taken by people in that country. That very rarely happens in threads like these.
Blaming a religion is something that is always untenable for two reasons;
1) A religion is ideal, a goal. It is not affected by or responsible for the piety or actions of it's adherants.
2) To blame a community of adherants that spans all walks of life and all countries for the actions of a few to which they have no input, control or ability to prevent is unfair.
Quote
Would you think these minorities are predominantly religious people?

No.
Originally posted by toyo toyo wrote:


How you can compare Islam with the Anglican Church, or the Protestant movement in general completely defeats me.

Protestant christians are quite similar to Muslims, the main difference being the trinity and the emphasis on saved by faith and saved by deeds. I think if you better understood that you would have a better opinion of Islam. I think the best place for a christian to start with the basics of Islam is to read the Book of James in the bible.

The rest of your post deserves no response because you never proved to me how my opinion changed, and frankly, you're just trying to bait me.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 02 Jun 2014 at 12:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2014 at 01:13
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

 
And yet, some of the progressive Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia and Qatar still cling to the archaic laws.

Being relatively stable and under control is not the same thing as being progressive, at least not in the sociological sense we are discussing. I would argue that Saudi Arabia is one of the most backward societies on earth, as it is most solidly immersed in magical belief; and denial of, or lack of knowledge of, psychological and social motivators that underlie the kind of behaviors they are so fond of. In Saudi, women have very few rights, and those that oppose the prevailing religious system face beatings, imprisonment, or death, often in the form of public beheadings. The liberal traditions of free philosophical debate, multiple political views, and tolerance of diversity are almost completely absent.

 
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

And I agree with you that, in some ways, human kind seems to have regressed-could it be due to insecurity, politically and financially?
 
 

I don't have any answer here, but I will toss out the idea that we have had much greater insecurity in the past, but in some ways more order. Most societies today have more wealth than ever before, and also the possibility of all out international war is less than previously in history.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2014 at 01:51
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:



Let me make my position on this thread clear:
I accept that bad things are bad.
I completely reject the assumptions and premise made that the bad things are linked to Islam.
I completely reject that your religion is better than my religion.

I agree with you that there is no difference in superiority, other than Christianity has been dragged, in the west at least, more or less, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century. And here they sit, a humble magic act that has now been superseded by more exciting spectacles, hoping to at least save up the funds for a small booth at the county fair.

The dragging of Islam has worked in some places, but to  a dismaying degree, the more radical and dysfunctional of this set of beliefs has resisted movement. The lack of rational or intellectual input in some of these select regions means volatile young men are willing to kill or die for concepts that should really be regulated to comic books. This is pretty sad when you think about it.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


 Australia or Denmark the majority view of society can significantly influence whether the murderers are blamed, procecuted and punished. In these countries, yes, perhaps some blame can be directed to the populace of the country at large. But even then that blame is diluted significantly. However in countries that are lawless or authoritarian the majority view, even if it's an overwhelming majority, can have little to no effect on whether the murderers are blamed, procecuted and punished. In this case it is unfair to blame the populace because they are powerless to prevent it.

This is so, but the sad fact is that in some of the darkest regions we are talking about, there is considerable community support for the type of outrages that are in question here, including the subjugation of women, and violent, even lethal acts against those that oppose the prevailing belief system. If you are trying to say that all this is about a few dictators, corrupt police, and criminals, then I'd suggest this is not so- do a quick search of google and you will find all kinds of stories of enraged villagers doing all sorts of medieval things, with no police or officials present. 

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


Blaming a religion is something that is always untenable for two reasons;
1) A religion is ideal, a goal. It is not affected by or responsible for the piety or actions of it's adherants.
2) To blame a community of adherants that spans all walks of life and all countries for the actions of a few to which they have no input, control or ability to prevent is unfair.
[quote]


Well, it's not always untenable. Yes, individuals are responsible for what they do, but that behavior is strongly influenced by at least two factors: their psychological state, and their social environment. 

Take, for example, 9/11. My bet is that those hijackers all has some sort of emotional/psychological/and or developmental problems. But, given their social background- the never ending religious indoctrination, the preference for magical as apposed to rational thought, the belief that they were not going to die at the event in question, but live forever in paradise, and also the belief that they were not really responsible for their actions in the broadest sense, as all was up to Allah.....how much did that sway their actions on that fateful day? My guess is, quite a bit.

Any good used car salesman will tell you that getting the mark to accept a small bit of BS makes them much more likely to accept a bigger chunk a while down the tube. They like the color of the car, and the price isn't completely out of consideration? Excellent....just step into my office....let me talk to the manager. So to with religion. If one already accepts magical beliefs, and dogmatic thought, then the step up to violent magic and dogmatism is much shorter than that for the individual embracing rigorous rational process.

Religion didn't cause things like 9/11, but the more we retreat from rationality and modernism, the more this sort of thing can find legs among the vulnerable and the troubled.
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