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Fear and Consequences

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toyomotor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2014 at 03:28
Posted: Yesterday at 21:06
Quote It is apparent to me that the purpose of this thread and the resolution which most of the participants want it to conclude is to say "My religion is better than your religion", "our people are wiser than your people".
 
No, the OP pointed out one particular incident where religion intruded into the private lives of individuals, and offered a barbaric punishment for what was really a private matter.

Quote To do this, events are selected and analysed that no-one in their right mind can defend or excuse. Care is taken to ignore any other factors that could contribute to the events e.g. socio-economic causes, conflict and violence, how well representitive the rulers are. The events are framed solely in the context of morality. The events are used as examples to show how backward the target religion is. The assumption is made that in any diverse group of people, say one encompassing over a fifth of the world's population, that only the most radical are representative of this group.
 
Selection and analysis of certain events results in opinions on that event. Opinions are invariable slanted by the backgrounds of those forming the opinions. Forget Islam for a moment, if it were a Fundamental Christian society in which these things were happening, the opinions of the rest of us liberals would be the same. It’s just a pity that Islam, to us, seems to be mired in the 15th Century=that’s our opinion.

Quote This sets the trap for members entering the thread. Members are either forced to agree that bad things are bad and by extention that the target religion is inferior, or can attempt to challenge the underlying and often unsaid assumptions made in the premise while still managing to agree that bad things are bad. A couple of tricks are useful in entrapping members of the second type. One is the secondary example. If another event is presented during the thread then this can be used to reinforce the opening post and by extension the assumptions in the premise and the conclusion that the target religion is inferior. Another trick is to get the member to admit that any particular bad thing is in fact no so bad. It does not have to be one of the events, in fact since those events are ones that no-one in their right mind can excuse, it's much easier to get them to admit to something else, even something unrelated, is in fact not so bad. This works to undermine the moral credibility of the member thereby allowing their objections to be dismissed.
 
I personally believe, after having read the Koran many years ago, that Islam has as much to offer as a belief system as does Christianity. I do not believe that Islam is inferior, but the way in which it is manipulated by fundamentalists is not compatible with the 21st Century. Bad people do bad things, that fact is inescapable, and unfortunately it is the bad people in Islam and their bad deeds which attract attention. Regardless of which religious faction to which one belongs, when bad deeds are done, they should be admitted.  Let’s face it, the Christian Religion and in particular the Roman Catholic Church have been the catalyst for some of the most horrendous acts over the centuries, they were bad deeds done by bad people, regardless of supposedly being well intentioned.

Quote Ultimately this will convey the sense of moral superiority of the adherents of the aggressor religion over the target religion.
 
Unfortunately it’s not possible to view this type of event, imho, without linking it to the reasons that it is happening, and the reason is the Islamic beliefs of the rulers of the particular country, and/or the majority of the community.

Quote Let me make my position on this thread clear:
I accept that bad things are bad.
I completely reject the assumptions and premise made that the bad things are linked to Islam.
I completely reject that your religion is better than my religion.
 
1.     There is no disagreement here, bad things are bad things, regardless of whom they are committed by.
2.     Not all bad things are linked to Islam, but one can’t escape the truth, under Islamic rule there have been some atrocious acts committed in the past 50 years or so.
3.     I’ve already covered this point, I don’t believe that one religion is better than the other, but some religions have moved on into the 20th Century, others haven’t.

Adultery isn't acceptable and the state shouldn't punish those who commit adultery - then who should punish them then?

If your sister or wife slept with another married man, the Australian state wouldn't punish her.
Would you punish her? - and if yes, how would you punish her?
If no - who should punish her and how?

Quote If my sister was married it is generally accepted in this country that would lead to divorce. The divorce is the punishment imposed by society and her husband and given that usually this results in emotional and financial stress it would be my responsibility to help her rebuild her life on a moral footing.
If my sister were unmarried it is unlikely I would ever find out, but if I did ultimately her punishment would like in the afterlife and the only thing I can contribute is to help her repent and build a solid foundation for her new life.
 
You’re way off mark here. It is not generally accepted that a marriage would end in divorce.
Divorce is not a punishment, it the consequences of two people no longer wishing to be tied to each other in matrimony-no more than that!
 
As for morality, it’s a moveable commodity, it changes with each generation, and sometimes within a generation.
 

Quote In some countries like Australia or Denmark the majority view of society can significantly influence whether the murderers are blamed, prosecuted and punished. In these countries, yes, perhaps some blame can be directed to the populace of the country at large.
 
Again you’re way off mark, the law is applied equally for serious crimes like murder etc. Public opinion may have some effect on what sentences are passed for particularly atrocious crimes, but that’s where it stops.
 
 
How you can compare Islam with the Anglican Church, or the Protestant movement in general completely defeats me.

Quote Protestant christians are quite similar to Muslims, the main difference being the trinity and the emphasis on saved by faith and saved by deeds. I think if you better understood that you would have a better opinion of Islam. I think the best place for a christian to start with the basics of Islam is to read the Book of James in the bible.
 
I reject this comment out of hand.

Quote The rest of your post deserves no response because you never proved to me how my opinion changed, and frankly, you're just trying to bait me.
 
1.     I you read back over your posts, I think it will become clear that you have changed your tune; and
2.     I’m not trying to bait you, and I can’t understand how you’ve attempted to defend the indefensible. Such archaic and barbaric punishments for breaches of a religious tenet have no place in our world, regardless of religion.
 
 
 
 


Edited by toyomotor - 03 Jun 2014 at 03:30
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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toyomotor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2014 at 03:39
Omar:
Let's take this topic away from the religious realm, and just take a look at what's happening, and has happened, in non Islamic countries, and for non religious reasons.
 

Reportedly, Kim Jung Un has had his uncle and his uncles entire family executed because he accused his uncle of treachery.

Again in North Korea, a missionary has been charged and sentenced to life imprisonment for holding unauthorised religious services and thereby insulting Kim Jung Un.
 
In Egypt a number of journalists have been accused or terrorism because they reported on the uprising taking place.
 
In Tienamen Square, Beijing, protestors were squashed by tanks for supporting democracy.
 
 
And of course there are a lot more-bad things being done by bad people.
 
 
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2014 at 02:34
I must say, it does get one thinking about the social environment in which a father will shoot his daughter in the face, and then receive community support for doing so.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/06/07/pakistani_teen_survives_attempted_honour_killing_over_love_marriage.html
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toyomotor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2014 at 03:01
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

I must say, it does get one thinking about the social environment in which a father will shoot his daughter in the face, and then receive community support for doing so.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/06/07/pakistani_teen_survives_attempted_honour_killing_over_love_marriage.html
 
How can that possibly be justified in todays world?
 
Just another demonstration of 15th Century mentality in the 21st Century.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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