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Feminism, at 40

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2010 at 18:33
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

The extent of gender equality in a society is really best measured by popular attitudes towards effeminate men and masculine women.


I hate effeminate men and effeminate women. What does that make me?


gAY! Big time too
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2010 at 19:06
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

The extent of gender equality in a society is really best measured by popular attitudes towards effeminate men and masculine women.


I hate effeminate men and effeminate women. What does that make me?


gAY! Big time too


LOL

Misogynist, actually Wink


Edited by Parnell - 09 Sep 2010 at 19:07
http://xkcd.com/15/



Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. ~George Bernard Shaw
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2010 at 22:10
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

The extent of gender equality in a society is really best measured by popular attitudes towards effeminate men and masculine women.


I hate effeminate men and effeminate women. What does that make me?


gAY! Big time too


LOL

Misogynist, actually Wink


Lesbian Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 01:41

Let my ask this question to you all.. Is sex and gender the same thing? Also, how much of it is culturally derived vs biological in nature?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 08:23
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

Then Pakistan must be the most gender equal country in the world.
 
Can this be construed as anything other than a huge insult against Pakistani men and an even bigger one against the women? Tongue
 
There are a few Pakis around here and I can't say I've noticed the women being particularly masculine, though the men have this weird idea that shopping perfume together or hanging out at a hair salon isn't gay.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 10:46
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

 
There are a few Pakis around here and I can't say I've noticed the women being particularly masculine, though the men have this weird idea that shopping perfume together or hanging out at a hair salon isn't gay.
 
Obviously you have never been to a muslim country before. Men here spend more money on perfumes than women.
 
Al-Jassas
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 11:51
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

 
There are a few Pakis around here and I can't say I've noticed the women being particularly masculine, though the men have this weird idea that shopping perfume together or hanging out at a hair salon isn't gay.
 
Obviously you have never been to a muslim country before. Men here spend more money on perfumes than women.
 
Al-Jassas


And nobody thinks thats really gay? It is pretty gay.
http://xkcd.com/15/



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 12:16
Seriously, what is gay about smelling nice? Next you will be telling me that you aren't a real man if you don't eat your meat raw using nothing but your hands and a flint carving knife.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 12:50
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Seriously, what is gay about smelling nice? Next you will be telling me that you aren't a real man if you don't eat your meat raw using nothing but your hands and a flint carving knife.
 
Said the gay man? You're just proving my point. Cool
 
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Obviously you have never been to a muslim country before. Men here spend more money on perfumes than women.
 
You equate being Muslim with shopping perfume? I really do think this is one of those cultural things.
 
I've been to Turkey, which is at least a majority Muslim country. The men there were more busy trying to sell me melons, though not the kind I prefer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 13:03
Originally posted by Regi Regi wrote:

Today most peoples creativity is locked up in mind numbing labor and mind numbing consumism.


Well that's pretty ballsy coming from a fence sitter Star
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 13:06
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Originally posted by Regi Regi wrote:

Today most peoples creativity is locked up in mind numbing labor and mind numbing consumism.


Well that's pretty ballsy coming from a fence sitter Star
 
That's Carch, not me. Geez.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 13:40
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Seriously, what is gay about smelling nice? Next you will be telling me that you aren't a real man if you don't eat your meat raw using nothing but your hands and a flint carving knife.
 
Said the gay man? You're just proving my point. Cool 
 
 
Here is a little movie about how manly or not manyly things are.
 
The man in the movie is the Worlds strongest man, Magnus Samuelsson, and he is definitely not gay. He says: Everyone who think it is unmanly to dance in TV or take care of your outer appearance can visit me and then we can talk about the matter:
 
 
 
Not gay
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 10 Sep 2010 at 13:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 13:54
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Originally posted by Regi Regi wrote:

Today most peoples creativity is locked up in mind numbing labor and mind numbing consumism.


Well that's pretty ballsy coming from a fence sitter Star
 
That's Carch, not me. Geez.


I am certain I can recall multiple occasions where you said you went both ways, Regi.

I can't speak for Carch.
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Back on topic, I consider that feminism has acheived a lot. The argument that employees should be compensated equally for equal productivity is totally valid, and to think otherwise is backwards and poor management.

Allowing women to get a divorce when they are in an abusive relationship is also a very good thing. Not only that, once upon a time when a women wanted to get a divorce she had to go through the humiliating procedure of sitting in a courtroom full of people who were usually her social betters and explaining one of her husband's affairs after another to satisfy the court that a divorce was necessary. It was an enormously difficult thing to do, and I am pleased that this way of terminating terrible relationships is at an end.

Equal opportunity employment is a very good thing. Employment, promotion, remuneration and the like should be awarded purely on the basis of one's merit, qualifications and vocational skills. Discriminate by all means if you think an employee performs poorly, but don't discriminate on the basis of their gender. And this goes both ways. Don't give someone less qualified a job on the basis of their gender. AND NO QUOTAS!

I dismiss the idea that feminists are responsible for so many women engaging in work at the cost of maternal duties. This in my mind is a result of an increasingly materialistic society with a more uneven distribution of wealth and less purchasing power for ordinary people when it comes to buying everyday items like food, transport and accommodation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 14:30
Constantine XI, what I mean is the quote you used was written by Carch not me. As for me, I'm not on any fence or in any closet, I just go for whomever I find attractive without any interest in complicating matters with categorization. Sometimes you want hamburgers for dinner and other times pasta, yet few would contemplate what choosing one or the other says about their identity; "am I a hamburgerphile or a pastaphile?" It isn't relevant; do what you want, end of thought process. I can see why a scientist like a sociologist would need theoretical categories for methodological purposes, but for everyone else thinking about such issues is a waste of time.
 
Carch, the fact you show a gym-addict with a homobeard and a dainty wine glass as an example of rugged masculinity, tells me you're somewhat inexperienced with the gay community. They're not all queens.
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And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
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And birds of prey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 14:41
Quote what I mean is the quote you used was written by Carch not me. As for me, I'm not on any fence or in any closet, I just go for whomever I find attractive without any interest in complicating matters with categorization. Sometimes you want hamburgers for dinner and other times pasta, yet few would contemplate what choosing one or the other says about their identity; "am I a hamburgerphile or a pastaphile?" It isn't relevant; do what you want, end of thought process. I can see why a scientist like a sociologist would need theoretical categories for methodological purposes, but for everyone else thinking about such issues is a waste of time.


Yep, and never eating meat but not considering calling yourself a vegetarian still means you are effectively a vegetarian.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 14:49
Yes, technically speaking you can't deny that, but for most people the -philes are only "useful" as vehicles of discrimination and stigmatization, which is why I would rather they not think about it at all.
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And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
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And birds of prey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 15:15
Er have we not strayed tremendously far from topic here...besides sex is a biological term and gender falls in the domain of sociology. There is no such concept as sexual equality (its an apples and oranges kind of thing) but gender equality is something else because we are defining within the societal ambit with regard to structural relationships.
 
e.g. The difference between tranniesEvil Smile!
 
So let us forego the various versions of newspeak and please let us stop embarrassing ourselves by pushing forth clear examples of little more than narcissism. Of course, given that the topic itself uses newspeak ['feminism" egads and Oscar Wilde--yes the word is definitely Edwardian] when in fact we should be discussing the ramifications of the socio-political within the context of the legal structure such an outcome was inevitable. Keep in mind that Man is inclusive within Sociology, while man and woman are exclusives solely within a biological sense. All else leads to little more than hoists on ones' own petards.
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 10 Sep 2010 at 17:16
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Three cheers for Poppycock. Hip Hip Hooray!




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2010 at 17:34
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

 
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Obviously you have never been to a muslim country before. Men here spend more money on perfumes than women.
 
You equate being Muslim with shopping perfume? I really do think this is one of those cultural things.
 
I've been to Turkey, which is at least a majority Muslim country. The men there were more busy trying to sell me melons, though not the kind I prefer.
 
In the old days in the Arab world at least this was true. As for Turkey probably the reason why they don't use perfume as much as us is that they had lots of Hammams, running water inside their homes and a cool climate.
 
Here in Riyadh we have 40+ temperatures 100 days of the year, water was so scarce people used or swim in the same wells they drink and irrigate from (which is why Schistosomiasis was the number 1 killer ) and we were close to India where all the perfumes came from.
 
Al-Jassas 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2010 at 14:15
In the "old days"???? Hey, Al long before anyone even coined the term "metrosexual", men used koln wasser. Heck, I used Guerlain's Eau Imperiale (a trait derived from my grandfather) that came in a nice crystal decanter decorated with the Napoleonic bee! I only adopted Chanel's Pour l'homme as a teen solely as a defensive mechanism in the gym locker where everyone else had a craze for the truly revolting fragrance merchandized by Dana, Canoe (for years thereafter French vanilla ice cream made my stomach turn!). Everyone knows that the minute you descend into the Paris Metro you had best have a well-soaked fragrant 'kerchief to place before your nose, if you wish to survive the experience.

Edited by drgonzaga - 12 Sep 2010 at 14:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2010 at 18:35
I was referring to the medieval up to the renaissaince times when people took pride in not having bathed for so and so months which is why perfumes came into being in the first place.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2010 at 04:57
Originally posted by Carch Carch wrote:

The man in the movie is the Worlds strongest man, Magnus Samuelsson, and he is definitely not gay. He says: Everyone who think it is unmanly to dance in TV or take care of your outer appearance can visit me and then we can talk about the matter:

He's gay. Or close enough that I can't tell the difference (and I'd happily tell him to his face, his muscles don't scare me)
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Obviously you have never been to a muslim country before. Men here spend more money on perfumes than women.

That's a very Arab thing.
It also makes for great culture clash, an Arab Imam sounds positivily metrosexual when talking about perfume to an Australian audience.

Edited by Omar al Hashim - 13 Sep 2010 at 04:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2010 at 08:34
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

I was referring to the medieval up to the renaissaince times when people took pride in not having bathed for so and so months which is why perfumes came into being in the first place.
 
Sweat and perfume makes for a horrible mix. I know a few people who (God knows why) try to obscure their poor shower routines with perfume and being close to them is an endurance test.
 
My experience is that peninsular Arabs (at least the ones I know) have abandoned this practice in favour of scathingly hot baths and shaving bodyhair in the most sweat-exposed places. Particularly when it comes to rectal hygiene it might even be said they are cleaner than most others.
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And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
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And birds of prey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2010 at 08:39
Gay= a homosexual attraction between two males.

Some people here have a tendency to confuse camp/effeminate with gay - taking a highly subjective judgement and applying it to a highly objective state of affairs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2010 at 08:39
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

I was referring to the medieval up to the renaissaince times when people took pride in not having bathed for so and so months which is why perfumes came into being in the first place.
 
Sweat and perfume makes for a horrible mix. I know a few people who (God knows why) try to obscure their poor shower routines with perfume and being close to them is an endurance test.
 
My experience is that peninsular Arabs (at least the ones I know) have abandoned this practice in favour of scathingly hot baths and shaving bodyhair in the most sweat-exposed places. Particularly when it comes to rectal hygiene it might even be said they are cleaner than most others.
How did you know thatEvil Smile.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2010 at 08:57

I have a long-standing friend who is an Emirati from the UAE (and a lurker on this forum) and over the years all sorts of topic for conversation have come up. Of course the Gulf states are quite a different story from Saudi Arabia, but I imagined they might have these everyday aspects of popular culture in common.

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Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
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