| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Fetishizing Native Americans
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Topic ClosedFetishizing Native Americans

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 6>
Author
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Topic: Fetishizing Native Americans
    Posted: 12 Jul 2009 at 13:50
For some reason, some Europeans are in love with Native Americans. They have tried to interprete Native phylosophy and history and addapt it to theirs own beliefs. Even more, those Europeans believe that the Mother Earth religious concept of many Natives of the New World are the same that New Age dogma of Gaia.. Confused... So, no wonder many "ecologists" are reinterpreting for theirs own benefit the ancient native traditions.
  
Europeans passing as Indians are legion, and some extreme examples are the following:
 
Grey Owl (A British that convinced everyone he was Indian)
 
 
This article about Fetishizing Native Americans in Germany is very interesting
 
 

FETISHIZING NATIVE AMERICANS

In Germany, Wild for Winnetou

By Michael Kimmelman in Radebeul, Germany

For decades, Germans have been obsessed with a Native American named Winnetou. Only strange thing is: he's a fictional character from books written by a German who only went to America in the last years of his life. What does this obsession say about German identity?

A German actor dressed as Winnetou at the Karl May Museum in Radebeul. To Germans Winnetou is like Paul Bunyan, Abe Lincoln and Elvis rolled into one.
DPA

A German actor dressed as Winnetou at the Karl May Museum in Radebeul. 'To Germans Winnetou is like Paul Bunyan, Abe Lincoln and Elvis rolled into one.'

The other day I found Jürgen Michaelis, a short, 50-year-old, beefy-handed man with a broad smile, standing by himself inside a teepee not much bigger than a phone booth behind a house in this suburb of Dresden. A former locksmith and demolition worker from Chemnitz (which used to be called Karl-Marx-Stadt), Mr. Michaelis settled here a couple of years ago.

Gazing through inch-thick lenses and overjoyed to have a visitor, he showed off his homemade deerskin suit. Perched halfway on his head, about to tumble, was a matted black wig with a blue feather. At his feet burned a tiny charcoal fire, large enough to warm a single metal mug of water on a cold morning. A few forlorn trinkets rested on wood blocks, ostensibly for sale.

“My Indian name,” Mr. Michaelis told me, “is Lonely Man.”

A few months ago the director of the Panhandle-Plains Historical Museum in Canyon, Tex., told me in passing how his museum was frequently overrun by visiting Germans, so the curious German obsession with the Wild West — which newly arrived Americans repeatedly discover to predictable eye-rolling from Germans, for whom it’s hardly news — was not exactly unknown to me. Still, the extent of it is a little astonishing.

At powwows — there are dozens every year — thousands of Germans with an American Indian fetish drink firewater, wear turquoise jewelry and run around Baden-Württemberg or Schleswig-Holstein dressed as Comanches and Apaches. There are clubs, magazines, trading cards, school curriculums, stupendously popular German-made Wild West films and outdoor theaters, including one high in the sandstone cliffs above the tiny medieval fortress town of Rathen, in Saxony, where cowboys fight Indians on horseback. A fake Wild West village, Eldorado, recently shot up on the outskirts of Templin, the city where Angela Merkel, the chancellor, grew up.

The cause of this infatuation is a writer named Karl May (1842-1912), virtually unknown in the United States but the most popular author in German history.

A con man and Walter Mitty-like homebody who spent eight years in jail dreaming of Wild West adventures, May (the name is pronounced My) wrote dozens of tall-tale books that have sold more than 100 million copies, maybe twice that many if you count translations from the German. Kaiser Wilhelm II, like May a fantasist who loved to dress up in exotic costumes, adored May’s books. So did Einstein and Albert Schweitzer, Kafka and Fritz Lang. Hitler did too.

May’s hero was Winnetou, a fictional Apache chief, a household name here. To Germans Winnetou is like Paul Bunyan, Abe Lincoln and Elvis rolled into one. During the World Cup last year, an occasion for the Germans to debate, as they often do, the pitfalls of reviving their nationalist spirit, Der Spiegel, the leading newsmagazine, published an article titled “The Land of Winnetou.”

“There are the German poets and thinkers, the German forest, the German ‘comfortableness,’ German efficiency, the German longing for Italy, and there is Winnetou,” it pronounced. “Winnetou is the quintessential German national hero, a paragon of virtue, a nature freak, a romantic, a pacifist at heart, but in a world at war he is the best warrior, alert, strong, sure.”

“Eleven Winnetous,” the author, Dirk Kurbjuweit, added, referring to the German soccer team, “and we would be world champions.”

That was pretty much what Hitler told his troops when he distributed May’s books as object lessons; never mind that May himself had been a vocal pacifist.

Mr. Kurbjuweit also called Winnetou “a German with a migration background,” a phrase I’ve heard used to describe Turks here. Tormented German intellectuals like to ponder whether May’s concept of an “edelmensch,” his term for a truly noble man, as he called Winnetou, has inspired more feelings of fraternity or of racial superiority in the country. An American today is likelier to wonder how May shaped German views of the United States over the last century.

“Immensely,” Johannes Zeilinger told me. A hand surgeon by day, Dr. Zeilinger, a 59-year-old May enthusiast, is the curator of a big Karl May exhibition at the Deutsches Historisches Museum in Berlin.

“May framed a popular image of North America, with Indians as a dying race, tragically killed off by fate and by the spread of a new empire,” he said. The doctor ushered me toward a painting that shows Indians ambushing an oncoming train, trains having signified Manifest Destiny. In May’s books Winnetou’s loyal sidekick, Old Shatterhand, was a German émigré, a schoolteacher who went West, became a crack shot, had a deadly right jab and, not coincidentally, got work as a surveyor for a railroad company.

Dr. Zeilinger wouldn’t go so far as to say that May demonized the United States, which clearly he didn’t, although Hans Ottomeyer, the director of the museum, who wandered by to listen in on the conversation at that point, said: “May taught Germans that America was a wild place. There were natives and intruders, and he taught us to be suspicious of intruders, half of whom are good, half are very bad.” Like all German men, Mr. Ottomeyer, who’s 61, lapsed unbidden into recollections of reading May’s books as a boy. Children read him less today, he added. “The West used to be on the border of the imagination,” he said. “Now it’s a place they see every day, full of conflict and catastrophe.”

You might say that May has become a Rorschach of German identity. German “natural sympathy” for American Indians is rooted in ancient times, Dr. Zeilinger explained. The Roman historian Tacitus described German tribes as uncorrupted, primitive, fierce and at one with nature, a people on the edge of a corrupt and voracious empire. May tapped into that primordial Germanness and also into what became, by the mid-19th century, a growing interest in America and the wider world.

May wrote about the Orient and Africa, too, and, as with the West, claimed to be recounting his own experiences, going so far as to distribute photographs of himself dressed up as Old Shatterhand or as Kara Ben Nemsi, Old Shatterhand’s doppelgänger in the Ottoman world. He finally made it to the United States at 66, briefly scouring the wilds of Massachusetts and meeting his first Indian near Buffalo before retreating home to Saxony. When he confessed publicly to having cooked everything up, he pitched himself as a homily about a brute turned noble man, the Winnetou myth given a fresh spin.

Dr. Zeilinger showed me a typed collection of May’s adventures in a vitrine of objects from the former East Germany. Communists banned May — too Christian, too popular with Hitler, they said — and they shuttered his house in Radebeul. The typed copies were Wild West versions of samizdat, lovingly made over hundreds of hours by a fan from smuggled May books.

Needing to sate long-standing appetites, East German officials concocted ersatz versions of May tales with imitation Winnetous, and they also filmed May-like adventures in Cuba and Yugoslavia that became runaway hits behind the Iron Curtain.

Mr. Michaelis, the Lonely Man, remembers growing up on these, and on the East German schoolbooks about Indians and the capitalist West.

“It was a little bit of adventure, an escape and romantic,” he recalled. “From the books I saw it was a hard life being an Indian, and I identified with that. Indians could handle any situation with no resources, just like here. All this put the flame in me.”

May was finally recuperated by the Communists during the mid-80s, his house reopened alongside a log cabin museum of Indian artifacts and stuffed animals. Rathen, the open-air theater, also got to restage Winnetou plays.

I caught one recently. Beyond slumbering fields of cows and castles, across the Elbe on a little rope-drawn ferry, then through a tiny gingerbread town and a forest of conifers and beech, I climbed into the sandstone cliffs to see “The Treasure of Silver Lake.” On a rainy afternoon a few hundred hardy children and elderly Germans sat outdoors, watching a Dolph Lundgren lookalike in war paint carrying a spear.

Back here in Radebeul, Mr. Michaelis acknowledged what has clearly evolved into a mix of American Indian and German identities. “I’m 75 percent Indian but still German,” he said. He explained that while he loves his teepee, he has lately taken up an offer to sleep in Karl May’s house because the traffic between Dresden and Meissen has been keeping him awake at night. Then he waved one hand. “The Indians made these out of the cotton that perfidious Americans sold them,” he said, meaning his teepee. “This one’s better. It’s acrylic. From Saxony.”

Lunchtime was approaching, and he recommended a saloon around the corner that sold buffalo burgers. He said he goes there when he can afford to. Tonight he’ll be cooking on the fire.

“Schnitzel,” he said.



Edited by pinguin - 12 Jul 2009 at 13:52
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2009 at 14:10
Noble Savage pictures:
 


Edited by pinguin - 12 Jul 2009 at 14:14
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2009 at 16:10
Interesting topic. Here in Sweden there has also been a rather high interest in American indians, especially those from North America. Many here have read the books by James Fenimore Cooper (among them "The last of the Mohicans") and similar stuff. And many have seen countless of western movies on the theaters or on TV. Also many people here have relatives that emigrated to America and who sent home letters where they told about the new country and its wonders, including the natives.
 
For some the reading of the novels and the watching of the movies inspired a deeper interest. So several organisations and clubs concerning Native Americans were started already in the midst of the 20th century as for example the famous "Indianklubben" whos members have produced several books, articles and similar.
This interest also has spurred rather many to visit America, mostly the USA but also different countries in Latin America, and some have wrote books about their experiences inspiring more interest.
 
Recently I read about an old artist who in his youth read a lot of novels about North American natives and later started to read fact books. Later he went over to the USA several times. He thought he had so much pleasure in reading about the Native Americans so he descided to try to give something in return  to them. So he founded a scholarship for young members of the Native American societies in South Dakota for them to be able to pursue higher studies.
 
 
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2009 at 08:48
It is interesting how some peoples in the world are getting  fetishicized while others do not. Native Americans in North America are often admired as noble but somewhat primitive. South American natives has not been  fetishicized so much here in the west, rather the opposite they have many times been ragarded as savages who need to be civilized and missionized.
 
Another group of people that also have been fetishicized are Polynesians, especially the women. In many books and movies we learn about the idyllic, free spirited and beautiful people of the South Seas. We learn about the wonderful, attractive, friendly and willing South Pacific girls that always are there to service and help the western adventurer or sailor.
 
When concerning Africans there are no such  fetishicizing, instead they are in older literature and movies often portraid as ugly, stupid and brutal. About them is no romatic shimmer. The only thing that is romantizised is the African landscape with its elephants, lions and antelopes.
 
It seems that European sterotypes from the colonial past, often reinforced by the American media industry, still are haunting us and our ways of looking at other people.
 
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2009 at 14:36
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

It is interesting how some peoples in the world are getting  fetishicized while others do not. Native Americans in North America are often admired as noble but somewhat primitive. South American natives has not been  fetishicized so much here in the west, rather the opposite they have many times been ragarded as savages who need to be civilized and missionized.
 
Why do you speak so much nonsense?
The Incas are native of South America! Some of the greatest civilizations are from there. Mapuche and other warrior people of the region were so admired that they even have epic poems!
You are so .... so.... Angry
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Another group of people that also have been fetishicized are Polynesians, especially the women. In many books and movies we learn about the idyllic, free spirited and beautiful people of the South Seas. We learn about the wonderful, attractive, friendly and willing South Pacific girls that always are there to service and help the western adventurer or sailor.
 
Because both Natives and Polynesians resemble somehow Europeans. There are very pretty Native American and Polynesian women, even according to European standard of beauty.
 
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2009 at 15:18
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

When concerning Africans there are no such  fetishicizing, instead they are in older literature and movies often portraid as ugly, stupid and brutal. About them is no romatic shimmer. The only thing that is romantizised is the African landscape with its elephants, lions and antelopes.
You haven't been reading your Rider Haggard lately Smile. Check out Umslopogaas.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2009 at 16:31
Interesting topic that brought to mind Noble Johnson...
 
 
How's that for a "turn of the screw"?
 
One must come to terms with the descriptive "racial exotics" not only as a function of the early cinematic medium, but the role exercised as early as the Age of Discovery in the popular narratives of the epoch.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2009 at 16:38
PS: As for the pic of Jay Silverheels with Clayton Moore...how is that an "exotic" after all Mr. Silverheels was an authentic Native American. Now as for Ed Ames (nee Edmund Dantes Urick) as Mingo on Daniel Boone, that one was quite a stretch.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2009 at 18:12

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

You haven't been reading your Rider Haggard lately . Check out Umslopogaas.

 

There are always some exceptions but mostly Africans are portraid rather stupid or brutish. And many times the true heroes of the African jungle is white guys as Tarzan, Jungle Jim and the Phantom.

 

 

(Somewhat of topic: someone who saw the movie The league of extraordinary gentlemen where Ridder Haggards protagonist Alain Quatermain had a leading role?)

Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2009 at 18:28

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 

Why do you speak so much nonsense?

The Incas are native of South America! Some of the greatest civilizations are from there. Mapuche and other warrior people of the region were so admired that they even have epic poems!

You are so .... so....   

 

 

I am talking of many books, movies, comics and similar who (at least here in Europe and also in the US) many times have described South American natives as primitive. And if they mentioned civilisations like the Aztecs these products of popular culture often described the human sacrifices and wars. And many of (at least the older) popular books many times depicted the qonquistadors as heroes who fought overwhelming enemies.

And still today we have movies like Apocalypto who do  not give a specially sympathetic view of the Mayas.

 

And the Mapuche are hardly known at all here in Europe or in the US, at least not by the common man in the street.

 

But it seems that a change is on its way with more sympathetic depictions of Central and South American natives and their cultures.

 

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Because both Natives and Polynesians resemble somehow Europeans. There are very pretty Native American and Polynesian women, even according to European standard of beauty.

 

 

Yes, it seems that many Europeans and Americans can not see the beauty of African women. And also the American media representation is influenced by the extreme prejudice and ridicule against black people that has been so deeply embedded in US history since the time of the slavery. Also Europe had much of this feelings due to a long colonial history in Africa.



Edited by Carcharodon - 29 Jul 2009 at 18:29
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2009 at 19:14
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2009 at 19:16
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 

Yes, it seems that many Europeans and Americans can not see the beauty of African women.

 
Not only Europeans and Americans have trouble to see it, I am afraid.
Back to Top
Act of Oblivion View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 1174
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2009 at 20:07
 
..i am not sure about all the 'fetish' stuff..but when i was a young boy (in England), my friends and i would often play at being 'cowboys and indians' and even at that age, being the indian was much cooler than being the cowboy...making a bow and arrow was felt to be much more fun than finding a stick that resembled a Winchester....no one liked being the cowboy because they always 'died'...
 
 


Back to Top
Mixcoatl View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Location: Poyais
Status: Offline
Points: 5042
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2009 at 20:29
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Well, that's only the reflection of the extreme ignorance of Europeans and Americans about South America.

I remembered when I lived in Canada some innocent small girl shown my wife the way to use... an elevator LOLLOL. I also remembered my colleages at work believed we didn't have cars... or that most South America was just a green jungle with a few people here and there Confused

 

 

 

Haha, those dumb, stupid, ignorant Europeans and Americans. It's good that you remind us how culturally insular we are in every single thread. Because it is of course something unique: any culture is really well informed about any other culture, except us dumb Europeans. We don't know anything about the rest of the world, especially about Latin America.




A few weeks ago I was asked by a Mexican if we dance the sirtaki in the Netherlands.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2009 at 21:20

LOL

Once in a forum I told the guys there I was really an Indian of the Amazon, with a wi-fi notebook that I borrowed from the Jesuit missionaries.... And they believe it. Wink



Edited by pinguin - 29 Jul 2009 at 21:21
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2009 at 22:15
Since Pinguin was so kind to remind me that I am "a descendant of the Conquerors", I must admit that whatever savagery takes place in a Mexican cantina pales in comparison to the uncivilized goings-on of any "watering hole" in Paris, Amsterdam, or London...not to mention what transpires when all of those Euros descend upon poor IbizaEvil Smile
 
Save the Canary Islanders from the Neo-Vikings!
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2009 at 22:20
Save soccer from British hoolligans, too!!
Back to Top
Inah View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 18
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2009 at 02:32
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

There are always some exceptions but mostly Africans are portraid rather stupid or brutish. And many times the true heroes of the African jungle is white guys as Tarzan, Jungle Jim and the Phantom.

 

 

Heh. As a child, - Phantom was my favourite read, but then my first African friend gave me some ear bashing as he had quite a lot of trouble with Tarzan, the white man king of the African jungle.

But hasn't that trend continued ?   With the help of a "native", the white man becomes more native than the natives themselves, and finally wins "their game in their own terms" so to speak.

Movies like the "Man called Horse" comes to mind.  In "Out of Africa", the leading man becomes such a true African soul, that now even the lions come to honour his grave with their presence.  "Karate Kid" is helped by his Asian friend, and doesn't the Karate Kid then go on winning the tournaments in Asia ?  Europeans now becoming Native American Medicine Men, "Grandfather Gray Owls" selling Ceremonies in their weekend workshops. LOL   There also seem to be a lot of "Shamans" about. Michael Harner in Americas creating "Shamans" like from a production line.   People turning Shamanism into New Age philosophy or into some kind of European (dualistic) witch craft, or occult practices.  Dead

Why on earth do these people think that it is their individual incentive freedom right to appropriate native beliefs and then turn them into competitive commercial enterprises (as many seem to be nothing but projections of manufactured concepts delivered in ego-competitiveness of a market-place in the name of "Native").

Whose game, in imagined "native belief" trappings are people trying to "win" but their own same old, same old.

Misuse of native symbols too, like this Inca symbol use comes to mind:  http://www.alpacasilverstore.com/page/1533893  (Don't know about Pinguin, but I find this absolutely appalling, as it turns something ancient, deep and meaningful into something so very superficial. Angry

On the other hand, why is it that people wanting to better themselves think that they have to conceptually try to become something other than they are ?  An Aboriginal is supposed to become more evolved when he achieves the white mind.  A white man becomes a better person when he achieves the spirit of the Native American ( usually). Yet sharing or mutual understanding in the middle ground or "boundary" respecting differences is not so much encouraged in popular culture. 

Is it any wonder that some natives have started, in frustration to give up, and instead have opened dialogues with other natives in search for more mutual understanding.

Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2009 at 03:29
Originally posted by Inah Inah wrote:

...Misuse of native symbols too, like this Inca symbol use comes to mind:  http://www.alpacasilverstore.com/page/1533893  (Don't know about Pinguin, but I find this absolutely appalling, as it turns something ancient, deep and meaningful into something so very superficial. Angry
....
 
Inca symbols? Nah... That page is absolutely ridiculous. For instance, the logo has nothing Inca on it, at least we assume that a stair pattern an absolute Indigenous symbol. Second, it talks about the Souther Cross, which is the European interpretation of the constellation; not the Inca. And, the Alpacas are just an animal; not necesarilly Inca. In this part of South America llamas and alpacas are just a domestic animal more in some regions, that everyone owns.
 
With respect to New Age, it is just ridiculous. It has no much to do with the real beliefs of natives. Besides, most natives where practical man and the only weird and strange guy (or woman) in the tribe was the shaman (a specialist).
 
Natives had a system of beliefs not much different than members of any organized religion of today. They believed in earth, heavens, the underground world, shamanic travels, the tree of life and many archetypes that are common to most religions.
 
But each particular group has its own variety of religion. By the way, not many native americans at all believed in "vibrations" and "Feng Shui", that are superstitions of other regions.
Back to Top
lirelou View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 1346
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2009 at 05:38
First, I have known Germans who fetishize African Women. Indeed, there was a first rate German photographer whose Black and White photos of naked African women often graced some Panamanian newspapers I used to read. As for finding African women beautiful, many Americans and Europeans I've known do find African, Hatian, and African-American women beautiful. I've seen some particularly beautiful African women in France, one of whom was a Somali. Beautiful women exist in all races, and all mixtures.

Secondly, I find the irony of this thread overwhelming. I cannot think of anyone who fetishicizes Native Americans more than Pinguino does, at least in his written words, and his habit of speaking for all Native Americans.  Is there any real difference between the "noble savage" Mohicans of Fennmore Cooper, and Pinguino's "Brave Mapuche"? Pinguino, I am sorry this offends you, as it must, though it is not meant to be ad hominem. The only milder word I could come up with is "fixated upon", which sounds pretty close to fetishizing.


Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2009 at 08:35
Originally posted by Inah Inah wrote:

Is it any wonder that some natives have started, in frustration, to give up and instead have opened dialogues with other natives in search for more mutual understanding.
 
That is completely understandable. Many native peoples around the world share similar experiences of having their land stolen, having their way of life and beliefs repressed and to be marginalized politically and economically. When in dialogue with each other they are understood and can help and encourage each other. They can also cooperate to find solutions on some of their problems.
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2009 at 08:48
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

LOL

Once in a forum I told the guys there I was really an Indian of the Amazon, with a wi-fi notebook that I borrowed from the Jesuit missionaries.... And they believe it. Wink

 
Well, maybe not so strange since some of the native people of the Amazon today actually have computers and satellite telephones and similar equipment so they can communicate with the rest of the world. And some of them are also multilingual.
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2009 at 08:50
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Beautiful women exist in all races, and all mixtures.
 
On that one I can agree fully and wholeheartedly.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2009 at 11:17
Agreement from me too.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2009 at 15:17
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

   Is there any real difference between the "noble savage" Mohicans of Fennmore Cooper, and Pinguino's "Brave Mapuche"? Pinguino, I am sorry this offends you, as it must, though it is not meant to be ad hominem. The only milder word I could come up with is "fixated upon", which sounds pretty close to fetishizing.
 
What fixation? I am mestizo (more to the castizo side Wink) and a "La Raza" believer. Those who follow this dogma don't fetishize "them" because they are "us". We are proud of our ancestors, in other terms. Got it? Wink
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2009 at 15:27
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
Well, maybe not so strange since some of the native people of the Amazon today actually have computers and satellite telephones and similar equipment so they can communicate with the rest of the world. And some of them are also multilingual.
 
Definitivelly, you are a weird person, Carcha. There is only 600.000 Amazonian natives in South America, and perharps no more than 60.000 living in the Jungle in a "traditional" lifestyle. That means that for every single native in that status there are 5.000 South Americans! So, what it is really the chance that really happens?
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2009 at 15:59
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

First, I have known Germans who fetishize African Women. Indeed, there was a first rate German photographer whose Black and White photos of naked African women often graced some Panamanian newspapers I used to read. As for finding African women beautiful, many Americans and Europeans I've known do find African, Hatian, and African-American women beautiful. I've seen some particularly beautiful African women in France, one of whom was a Somali. Beautiful women exist in all races, and all mixtures. ...
 
It may be, but that wasn't the opinion of the American and Europeans before the Political Correctness age. Still today, many males simply still don't find west african women beautiful, particularly in countries were PC hasn't been impossed as yet.
Back to Top
lirelou View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 1346
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2009 at 16:04
Pinguino, in re: "We are proud of our ancestors.." When you idealize the small percentage of your Mapuche ancestry at the expense of the others, you are fetishizing. You are doing the same thing I did when I was 17. I raised a half Latin son. He lived in his mother's homeland for several years, attended school there, and still speaks Spanish. He had no "raza" or flag tattoos, perhaps because looking like a popular Latin TV character, he doesn't need them. I also have two half Vietnamese children. They grew up when being oriental was "mysterious and cool."  My daughter showed up one day with a dragon tattooed across the very bottom of her lower back. Her mother was quite upset, but the act was done. All I could say to her was, "Honey, tattooing a dragon near your butt won't make you any more Vietnamese than you already are. Her younger sibling came home from the Army with Chinese characters tattooed on his neck, all because some remote ancestor came down to Vietnam from China. Both were fetishizing, and both were trying to make up for the fact that they weren't full-blooded Vietnamese or Chinese, which popular movies and television had convinced them was "cooler" than being just plain Americans. In essence, they were no different than some pure-blooded German dressed up as an American Indian, sitting in a tipi outside Heidelberg. (Or modern Utah accountants all dressed up as "Mountain Men" at a "rendezvous" spinning tales of a fictionally simpler time when men went into the mountains to live "close to the land" with Native Americans.) 
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2009 at 17:45
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Pinguino, in re: "We are proud of our ancestors.." When you idealize the small percentage of your Mapuche ancestry at the expense of the others, you are fetishizing. You are doing the same thing I did when I was 17. I raised a half Latin son. He lived in his mother's homeland for several years, attended school there, and still speaks Spanish. He had no "raza" or flag tattoos, perhaps because looking like a popular Latin TV character, he doesn't need them. I also have two half Vietnamese children. They grew up when being oriental was "mysterious and cool."  My daughter showed up one day with a dragon tattooed across the very bottom of her lower back. Her mother was quite upset, but the act was done. All I could say to her was, "Honey, tattooing a dragon near your butt won't make you any more Vietnamese than you already are. Her younger sibling came home from the Army with Chinese characters tattooed on his neck, all because some remote ancestor came down to Vietnam from China. Both were fetishizing, and both were trying to make up for the fact that they weren't full-blooded Vietnamese or Chinese, which popular movies and television had convinced them was "cooler" than being just plain Americans. In essence, they were no different than some pure-blooded German dressed up as an American Indian, sitting in a tipi outside Heidelberg. (Or modern Utah accountants all dressed up as "Mountain Men" at a "rendezvous" spinning tales of a fictionally simpler time when men went into the mountains to live "close to the land" with Native Americans.) 
 
Sorry, but your personal experiences in the United States, don't apply to me.
I am a Chilean, not an American with identity problems Confused. I live in Chile. I have the standard, average, mainstream descendency of all people of my country. I have been living in a place just a few miles from where my great grand parents lived in the 19th century! And my roots lost in the past of Chile; with the exception of some foreign ancestors...
 
So, I live in my land and I descend of the people of my land, not from exotic places. And the foreign blood that came here it doesn't matter much for me. Except for the due respect one has to have to its ancestors, of course. But if they choose to come here, I bet it was a better place than were they lived before... Confused
 
In short, I am a Chilean criollo; descendent of European immigrants and natives. Part of a people that is proud of its ancient countryside traditions. Pure Chilean, no more and no less.
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 30 Jul 2009 at 17:48
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2009 at 18:42
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
Definitivelly, you are a weird person, Carcha. There is only 600.000 Amazonian natives in South America, and perharps no more than 60.000 living in the Jungle in a "traditional" lifestyle. That means that for every single native in that status there are 5.000 South Americans! So, what it is really the chance that really happens?
 
Well, maybe by pure chance on an open forum the chance is rather small, but for those who actively search for some of them it can for sure happen. In these days it is actually possible to reach some of them and ask them how they see things. And many of them, and other native people from other places, have formed networks where they can reach each other and exchange opinions and advice.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 30 Jul 2009 at 18:44
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 6>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.