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First dogs tamed in China

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    Posted: 04 Sep 2009 at 19:49

New studies show that the dog was domesticated In China

 
Earlier studies has suggested that the dog was tamed in East Asia but it is first now one can show were in East Asia.

Researchers at KTH (Kungliga Tekniska Hogskolan, The royal Institute of Technology, in Stockholm) together with researchers from China has shown that dogs (Wolfs) where tamed around 16000 years ago south of the Yangtze River in China.

The research is published in the Magazine Molecular Biology and Evolution.

The researchers belive that the taming took place with a lot of wolfs, many hundred. It also seems that these first dogs were eaten by people and thus the dogs first function were as food.

The results have been obtained by analyzis of mtDNA from 1500 dogs from the whole world.


http://blogs.discovery.com/news_animal/2009/09/history-of-dogs-determined-according-to-new-study.html

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2009 at 04:00
That's fascinating stuff. Do we have any idea when dogs were first domesticated for the purposes of companionship and service?

-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2009 at 12:16
It seems that people must have discovered the range of abilities and the usefulness of dogs quite early. In Sweden we have fine burials of dogs already 9000 years ago and somewhat later the dogs are even buried with different objects as grave gifts. These burials have been interpreted as if the dogs were regarded very high, maybe as members of the family.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whalebreath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2009 at 20:13
I'm very leery of any research coming out of China that supports the China First party line as promoted by the Chinese Communist Government.

Here in a Canadian city that's over 40% Chinese we constantly see this nauseating chauvinism, a non stop barrage of lies and half truths. Thumbs Down


Edited by whalebreath - 05 Sep 2009 at 20:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2009 at 20:39
This research is a cooperation between chinese researchers and researchers from the Royal Insitute of Technology of Sweden. I do not see that the Swedish researchers should have some reason to suport chinese chauvinism.

Peter Savolainen is an experienced researcher and I do not think he will fall into any chinese  chauvinism trap.

And also the chinese researchers I think are to proffesional to fall victim to simple chauvinism.


Edited by Carcharodon - 05 Sep 2009 at 22:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whalebreath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2009 at 23:37
Quote I do not see that the Swedish researchers should have some reason to suport chinese chauvinism.

Money talks.

Quote chinese researchers I think are to proffesional to fall victim to simple chauvinism.

Your statement as quoted shows you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of a totalitarian state.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2009 at 01:21
I am sure that domestication of the dog is not something which would be  at the forefront of the cultural ministry's mind... "hmmm... what other super awesome ubermenchen achievement has the great Han civilisation conceived? Of Course! Domestication of the dog!"  Unlikely. 

Though I am regardless skeptical of such claims - how can they know as definitely as this post comes across?

Quite aside from this, I find it remarkable, the many breeds of dog that have been evolved over this relatively short period of time.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2009 at 11:12
Originally posted by whalebreath whalebreath wrote:



Money talks.


Are you sure that the Swedish researchers are solely financed by China?

Originally posted by whalebreath whalebreath wrote:


Quote chinese researchers I think are to proffesional to fall victim to simple chauvinism.


Your statement as quoted shows you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of a totalitarian state.


I talk out of experience since I had some contact with chinese researchers. Many of them are more unbound and free of ideological control  than you think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2009 at 11:21
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

I am sure that domestication of the dog is not something which would be  at the forefront of the cultural ministry's mind... "hmmm... what other super awesome ubermenchen achievement has the great Han civilisation conceived? Of Course! Domestication of the dog!"  Unlikely. 

Though I am regardless skeptical of such claims - how can they know as definitely as this post comes across?


As always the results of science are preliminary. These claims apply until they find new facts that maybe change their present standpoint.
Sometimes claims of researchers also sound more definite when mediated trough press and popular science magazines.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Quite aside from this, I find it remarkable, the many breeds of dog that have been evolved over this relatively short period of time.


I saw a program on TV recently where some researchers claimed that the genetic makeup of wolfs and dogs make it specially prone of changes (they called it rubber DNA since it was so flexible), more than many other animals. That make dogs especially well suited for modifications and alterations.


Edited by Carcharodon - 06 Sep 2009 at 11:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2009 at 05:30
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

It seems that people must have discovered the range of abilities and the usefulness of dogs quite early. In Sweden we have fine burials of dogs already 9000 years ago and somewhat later the dogs are even buried with different objects as grave gifts. These burials have been interpreted as if the dogs were regarded very high, maybe as members of the family.
 
Thanks for the info. Fascinating stuff. I don't really have much to offer to this conversation, as it is well out of my field, but I shall certainly follow the conversation. Wonderful thread, Carcharodon. ClapSmile
 
-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2009 at 11:57
Reading the original scientific paper, the study showed the dog was domesticated in South East Asia, south of the Yangtze (with some exceptions - there are apparently more than one line of domesticated wolves).  People can of course always make their own interpretations of what "South East Asia" means. The region from which the authors conclude the origin, is on the map centered over North Vietnam.

And yes, the study was funded mostly by the Chinese state, and partly by Swedish research funds. I don't really think the Swedish scientists would have been that much influenced though. It's not that they get tons of money personally anyway.

edit: article may be found here, for those with access: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/search?fulltext=savolainen&flag=PIP&Sendit=Search


Edited by Styrbiorn - 10 Sep 2009 at 08:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2009 at 13:25
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 .......has shown that dogs (Wolfs) where tamed around 16000 years ago south of the Yangtze River in China.......

.......The researchers belive that the taming took place with a lot of wolfs, many hundred. It also seems that these first dogs were eaten by people and thus the dogs first function were as food.......

(bold by me)
 
They were still technically domasticated wolves not dogs, right?  What's the difference? I don't know....Embarrassed  That's why I'm asking.
 
I could swear though I was watching one of those Westminster dog shows and one of the commentator said the Salukis were the first breed of dogs known to the .  Now, like I said I don't know how that is different from the content of this research..... so i had to Wiki it up....Embarrassed
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
......The Saluki is perhaps the oldest known breed of domesticated dog. A study published in the May 21, 2004 issue of Science confirms the Saluki's antiquity through DNA analysis identifying it as one of the earliest breeds to diverge from wolves.[1] Like elsewhere in the Fertile Crescent region, Saluki-like animals appear on the ancient ceramics from Susa and Sialk of 3500 BC in Iran, as well as on Egyptian tombs of 2100 BC.[2] The breed had been occasionally imported to England before 1840, however there was no serious interest until the Hon. Florence Amherst imported a breeding pair of Salukis from Lower Egypt in 1895 and began working to popularize the breed. The Kennel Club recognized Salukis in 1923.....
 
File:Saluki dog breed.jpg
 
 
......Although the greyhound is the fastest dog breed with a top speed of around 45 mph (72 km/h), the Saluki's strength lies in its great endurance and stamina. They may not be the fastest sighthounds, but they can run for much longer than the sprinting breeds......
 
......The Saluki has historically served as a courser, a speedy hunting dog that operated in packs. They often hunted in tandem with falcons which locate the prey and for the dogs to run down.

Salukis appear on Egyptian tombs from 2100 B.C. The dogs were so esteemed that they were often mummified like the bodies of the Pharaohs themselves. Numerous Saluki remains have been found in the ancient tombs of the Upper Nile region.

In Muslim cultures, dogs are often seen as unclean. A saluki, however, is given a different status by the Arab culture. The Bedouin value them, breeding them for both beauty and hunting qualities. A saluki, instead of being viewed as unclean, often sleeps in tents with their owners, to be protected from the heat of the day and the cold of the night.....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
Originally posted by whalebreath whalebreath wrote:

I'm very leery of any research coming out of China that supports the China First party line as promoted by the Chinese Communist Government.

Here in a Canadian city that's over 40% Chinese we constantly see this nauseating chauvinism, a non stop barrage of lies and half truths. Thumbs Down
 
hey, whalebreath, why don't you open a thread on China bashing somewhere else?  We are talking about Korean food here!Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2009 at 14:13

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Reading the original scientific paper, the study showed the dog was domesticated in South East Asia, south of the Yangtze (with some exceptions - there are apparently more than one line of domesticated wolves).  People can of course always make their own interpretations of what "South East Asia" means. The region from which the authors conclude the origin, is on the map centered over North Vietnam.


I think one must combine these genetic studies also with hard archaeological evidence before one can pinpoint the exact locations of these early wolfs/dogs, and where they lived in relation to todays borders.

 

 

Originally posted by King
Kang of Mu King Kang of Mu wrote:

 

They were still technically domasticated wolves not dogs, right?  What's the difference? I don't know....Embarrassed  That's why I'm asking.

 

An animal is domesticated when its genetic makeup is somewhat manipulated so one can make use of desired characters. But the changes do not always have to be very big and they can be hard to distinguish in an archaeological material. In genetic studies one ought to be able to discern the more profound changes. One belives that those who tamed the first wolfs usually kept the most docile animals that were most easy to handle. They were also those who got the chance to procreate. In that way the more docile character was passed on to next generation and an early stage of domestication were on its way.

 

Originally posted by King
Kang of Mu King Kang of Mu wrote:

I could swear though I was watching one of those Westminster dog shows and one of the commentator said the Salukis were the first breed of dogs known to the .  Now, like I said I don't know how that is different from the content of this research..... so i had to Wiki it up....Embarrassed

 

Maybe Saluki is among the oldest now living breeds of dog, but it was indeed not the first dog. The dogs from Almeo in Sweden (9000 years) and Skateholm (around 7000 years) were of a very different kind, more reminding of todays spitz-dogs.



Edited by Carcharodon - 09 Sep 2009 at 14:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2009 at 14:23
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Maybe Saluki is among the oldest now living breeds of dog, but it was indeed not the first dog. The dogs from Almeo in Sweden (9000 years) and Skateholm (around 7000 years) were of a very different kind, more reminding of todays spitz-dogs.

 
That would make complete sense.  Not that what the dog show commentaor or Wiki was saying is infallible but least that would not contridict from this report.  Thanks for clearing that up for me, Carcharodon. I don't know why I wasn't thinking like that.Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2009 at 07:38
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

I am sure that domestication of the dog is not something which would be  at the forefront of the cultural ministry's mind... "hmmm... what other super awesome ubermenchen achievement has the great Han civilisation conceived? Of Course! Domestication of the dog!"  Unlikely.


The best dose of common sense we have seen in this thread.

I personally see nothing improbable about one of the first areas of the planet to become densely populated and experience urbanisation also being one of the first to domesticate an animal such as the dog.
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