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France urged; repay Haiti billions paid for indep

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Bill Cosby View Drop Down
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    Posted: 16 Aug 2010 at 03:03
(not sure this is the correct forum for this thread????  If there is one more suited to this Mods pls move it to that forum.... ThnX)


[FONT="Arial Black"]About time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A group of international academics and authors has written to Nicolas Sarkozy calling on France to reimburse the crushing "independence debt" it imposed on Haiti nearly 200 years ago.

The open letter to the French president says the debt, now worth more than €17bn (£14bn), would cover the rebuilding of the country after a devastating earthquake that killed more than 250,000 people seven months ago.

Its signatories – including Noam Chomsky, the American linguist, Naomi Klein, the Canadian author and activist, Cornel West, the African-American author and civil rights activist, and several renowned French philosophers – say that if France repays the money it would be a solution to the shortfall in international donations promised following the earthquake.

Despite pledges at an international donors' conference in March of aid totalling £3.4bn, only five countries – Brazil, Norway, Australia, Colombia and Estonia – have sent aid amounting to about £325m.

The letter, published in the French newspaper Libération today says the debt was "patently illegitimate ... and illegal".

The debt dates back to when Haiti, then St Dominique, was France's most profitable colony thanks to slavery. In 1791 the slaves revolted, and in 1804, after defeating Napoleon's forces, they founded the world's first independent black republic.

But after independence, French slave owners demanded compensation. In 1825 the French monarch Charles X demanded Haiti pay an "independence debt" of 150m gold francs – 10 times the fledgling nation's annual revenue. The original sum was reduced but Haiti still paid 90m gold francs – about €17bn today – to France. It was still paying off this debt in 1947.

In 2004, a lawsuit launched by Haiti to recover the money was abandoned when France backed the overthrow of the government.

Campaigners say the debt was illegal even in 1825, because when the original demand for compensation was made slavery was technically outlawed.

Their letter says: "The 'independence debt', which is today valued at well over €17bn ... illegitimately forced a people who had won their independence in a successful slave revolt, to pay again for the freedom.

"In 2003, when the Haitian government demanded repayment of the money France had extorted from Haiti, the French government responded by helping to overthrow that government."

The letter describes France's actions as "inappropriate responses to a demand that is morally, economically, and legally unassailable", adding: "In light of the urgent financial need in the country in the wake of the devastating earthquake of January 12, 2010, we urge you to pay Haiti, the world's first black republic, the restitution it is due."

The letter has also been signed by members of parliament from Europe, Canada and the Philippines, as well as scholars, journalists and activists in France, Haiti, the US, Canada, the UK, Nigeria, Sierra Leone and Germany.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2010 at 04:52

Garbage Alert! Garbage Alert! Garbage Alert! And obvious evidence of Guardian addiction! Further Bill, if you are going to present a topic please credit your sources and do not plagiarize them! To wit:

 
Look famliar?
 
As for the purported History presented? Matters were a bit more complicated than those simplistic rants on Charles X (who btw was overthrown in 1830). Better to be asking all of those cuddly fuzzy-wuzzys of today what's happening to the money they are constantly raising for Haitian relief?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2010 at 05:52
This money was paid by Haiti to France, and was fully paid for in 1947?
 
Is there still an existing debt? If so, with the slave owners long dead, who gets the money?
 
Why did Haiti agree to pay in the first place?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2010 at 09:38
I still haven't heard one solid (ie rational) argument why anyone should donate anything to any crisis-stricken country, ever. It follows that the Fab Five donor countries include naive rich states like Norway and Australia.
 
In this case we're dealing with Haiti, and earthquakes are hardly their only problem. Investing money in Haiti is like sponsoring a track and field runner suffering from leprosy in the hope of a miracle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2010 at 11:12
See the Tamil thread.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2010 at 15:36
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

This money was paid by Haiti to France, and was fully paid for in 1947?
 
Is there still an existing debt? If so, with the slave owners long dead, who gets the money?
 
Why did Haiti agree to pay in the first place?
 
Omar you should know better than expect historical accuracy from newspapers much less one of leftist ilk such as the Guardian, particularly if the stuff is dependent upon Internet searches. Here is the "source" for the garbage in the Guardian:
 
 
Of course, not a peep about events in the years 1914-1917 (shades of the Emperor Jones) so we must perforce "discuss" Haiti much as we discuss many a social problem: victimization and the need for entitlements!
 
Now if we are to embark upon the armada of history and not the pinnace of propaganda, then one must know what was the purpose of the Baron Mackau being sent to Haiti in 1826 and the actual nature of the economic entanglements involved in diplomatic recognition. Nor are the facts in accordance with the mutterings.
 
Here are the sources:
 
J. N. Leger. Recueil des Traites et Conventions de la Republique d'Haiti (1891)
 
Interestingly, there is also a little tome by Leger in English translation:
 
Haiti. Her History and Detractors. New York: Neale, 1907.
 
Now does anyone know the real background of the French loan to Haiti in 1875? Or even the activities of a certain American with a French name (Lazare) in that very year...then there is the little matter of events in 1838 (and not 1826) with regard to France.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2010 at 17:24
Esteemed Dr. G. In re: "Now does anyone know the real background of the French loan to Haiti in 1875? Or even the activities of a certain American with a French name (Lazare) in that very year...then there is the little matter of events in 1838 (and not 1826) with regard to France."

Nope! But I will presume from the tone of your posts that much of the moneys owed arise from loans made to Haiti by France. Obviously, Haiti's recent earthquake would be grounds for pardoning any such debt still owed on humanitarian grounds, and one would hope that any French earthquake assistance is in the form of grants. But paying back moneys that were repaid on money loaned seems to violate common sense.

And to think that from the original post, I was actually going to agree with the much detested (by moi, at any rate) Noam Chomsky. A deep bow for having saved me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2010 at 23:05
There is much nonsense written by your "usual suspects" with regard to the History of Haiti and if one does know their Haitian history, than this subject can nor be discussed in a vacuum nor ignore the actual political leadership of the island in those years. In Wiki they actually imply the French were ready to send warships to the island to collect "indemnification"! The truth is otherwise and demands that people actually know who was Jean Pierre Boyer (1776-1850) and his ill-fated Code Rural of 1 May 1826. Apparently some old historiographical work-horses are in sore need of reading. For the narrative on Boyer see:
 
James G. Leyburn. The Haitian People (1941), 2nd rev. ed., New Haven: Yale University Press, 1966.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Cosby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2010 at 00:21
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Garbage Alert! Garbage Alert! Garbage Alert! And obvious evidence of Guardian addiction! Further Bill, if you are going to present a topic please credit your sources and do not plagiarize them! To wit:

 
Look famliar?
 
As for the purported History presented? Matters were a bit more complicated than those simplistic rants on Charles X (who btw was overthrown in 1830). Better to be asking all of those cuddly fuzzy-wuzzys of today what's happening to the money they are constantly raising for Haitian relief?


The link I posted w/ the thread did not work........... Just like you link don't work..LMAO

That is the source, one of many............  You don't like my threads or my sources, I guess you can get use to rubbing them in your chest........  I will be around to help if need be......... LOL

Since you are not a mod or anything else around here I guess your opinion is just what it seems=worthless..............

Oh, & have a nice day......... Big smile


Edited by Bill Cosby - 17 Aug 2010 at 00:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Cosby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2010 at 00:23
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

This money was paid by Haiti to France, and was fully paid for in 1947?
 
Is there still an existing debt? If so, with the slave owners long dead, who gets the money?
 
Why did Haiti agree to pay in the first place?


They were forced to agree............  & the usa supported it.......... 

I would think they may wish to pay some back they are reluctant as to do so could open them up for countless other things they & the other imperial powers did........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Cosby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2010 at 00:25
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

I still haven't heard one solid (ie rational) argument why anyone should donate anything to any crisis-stricken country, ever. It follows that the Fab Five donor countries include naive rich states like Norway and Australia.
 
In this case we're dealing with Haiti, and earthquakes are hardly their only problem. Investing money in Haiti is like sponsoring a track and field runner suffering from leprosy in the hope of a miracle.


There is hope, there have been "Miracles"...........

Look @ Singapore........  A rotten hell hole full of rival gangs turned to a tiny economic superpower..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2010 at 03:34
Originally posted by Bill Cosby Bill Cosby wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Garbage Alert! Garbage Alert! Garbage Alert! And obvious evidence of Guardian addiction! Further Bill, if you are going to present a topic please credit your sources and do not plagiarize them! To wit:

 
Look famliar?
 
As for the purported History presented? Matters were a bit more complicated than those simplistic rants on Charles X (who btw was overthrown in 1830). Better to be asking all of those cuddly fuzzy-wuzzys of today what's happening to the money they are constantly raising for Haitian relief?


The link I posted w/ the thread did not work........... Just like you link don't work..LMAO

That is the source, one of many............  You don't like my threads or my sources, I guess you can get use to rubbing them in your chest........  I will be around to help if need be......... LOL

Since you are not a mod or anything else around here I guess your opinion is just what it seems=worthless..............

Oh, & have a nice day......... Big smile
 
If you desire a lecture on the C of C you shall receive one shortly; however, to simple details.
 
1) You did not post a link or even identify the source for your posting, which interestingly enough, was not only simple to present but was clearly proven by both of the links I attached in passing. Both of which, that of the Guardian as well as New Left are more than obvious on the WWW since the links do work and make the plagiarism obvious. Hence you gratuitous insulting allusion stands revealed for what it was, a calculated affront. So leave off with your attempts at at snideness since they place you in an even more unattractive light.
 
2) If you do not know the implications of the Boyer presidency (nor the epoch that preceded it [the government of Cristophe in the North, and that of Petion in the South]), you would certainly not have the necessary background to postulate much on the recourse to financing adopted by the Haitian government itself after 1826, you then have no foundations whatsoever to even put forth the likes of people like Chomsky as experts in History--or even the role of banking!
 
Since you know even less of the history of Singapore than you do of Haiti, it would be best that you desist from embarrassing yourself further.  AE is a history forum and not a site for flaming utter nonsense and unless you can retrieve some measure of actual competence within a historiographical milieu that is actually relative to Haiti in the 19th century, then whatever you might wish to propound on this subject has even less utility than a soaked roll of Charmin. Now that's a true measure of the worthless.


Edited by drgonzaga - 17 Aug 2010 at 03:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2010 at 04:41
Originally posted by Bill Cosby Bill Cosby wrote:

(not sure this is the correct forum for this thread????  If there is one more suited to this Mods pls move it to that forum.... ThnX)


[FONT="Arial Black"]About time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A group of international academics and authors has written to Nicolas Sarkozy calling on France to reimburse the crushing "independence debt" it imposed on Haiti nearly 200 years ago.

The open letter to the French president says the debt, now worth more than €17bn (£14bn), would cover the rebuilding of the country after a devastating earthquake that killed more than 250,000 people seven months ago.

Its signatories – including Noam Chomsky, the American linguist, Naomi Klein, the Canadian author and activist, Cornel West, the African-American author and civil rights activist, and several renowned French philosophers – say that if France repays the money it would be a solution to the shortfall in international donations promised following the earthquake.

Despite pledges at an international donors' conference in March of aid totalling £3.4bn, only five countries – Brazil, Norway, Australia, Colombia and Estonia – have sent aid amounting to about £325m.

The letter, published in the French newspaper Libération today says the debt was "patently illegitimate ... and illegal".

The debt dates back to when Haiti, then St Dominique, was France's most profitable colony thanks to slavery. In 1791 the slaves revolted, and in 1804, after defeating Napoleon's forces, they founded the world's first independent black republic.

But after independence, French slave owners demanded compensation. In 1825 the French monarch Charles X demanded Haiti pay an "independence debt" of 150m gold francs – 10 times the fledgling nation's annual revenue. The original sum was reduced but Haiti still paid 90m gold francs – about €17bn today – to France. It was still paying off this debt in 1947.

In 2004, a lawsuit launched by Haiti to recover the money was abandoned when France backed the overthrow of the government.

Campaigners say the debt was illegal even in 1825, because when the original demand for compensation was made slavery was technically outlawed.

Their letter says: "The 'independence debt', which is today valued at well over €17bn ... illegitimately forced a people who had won their independence in a successful slave revolt, to pay again for the freedom.

"In 2003, when the Haitian government demanded repayment of the money France had extorted from Haiti, the French government responded by helping to overthrow that government."

The letter describes France's actions as "inappropriate responses to a demand that is morally, economically, and legally unassailable", adding: "In light of the urgent financial need in the country in the wake of the devastating earthquake of January 12, 2010, we urge you to pay Haiti, the world's first black republic, the restitution it is due."

The letter has also been signed by members of parliament from Europe, Canada and the Philippines, as well as scholars, journalists and activists in France, Haiti, the US, Canada, the UK, Nigeria, Sierra Leone and Germany.



Bill Cosby, Please review the CoC as it pertains to plagiarism, specifically please see VII.B.11.  For future reference please provide your own commentary and a citation (if not a link to) for the source.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2010 at 05:46
And Dr Gonzaga, instead of just mocking threads and opinions when you think they are incorrect you could do us all the favour of explaining your position without the haughty attitude. In plain english, if you will, not everyone on this forum is fluent in English.

Edited by Omar al Hashim - 17 Aug 2010 at 05:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2010 at 10:22
Originally posted by Bill Cosby Bill Cosby wrote:

There is hope, there have been "Miracles"...........

Look @ Singapore........  A rotten hell hole full of rival gangs turned to a tiny economic superpower..
 
Miracles happen, but betting money on it is bad business.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Cosby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2010 at 01:57
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

And Dr Gonzaga, instead of just mocking threads and opinions when you think they are incorrect you could do us all the favour of explaining your position without the haughty attitude. In plain english, if you will, not everyone on this forum is fluent in English.


Amen................


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Cosby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2010 at 02:02
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Originally posted by Bill Cosby Bill Cosby wrote:

There is hope, there have been "Miracles"...........

Look @ Singapore........  A rotten hell hole full of rival gangs turned to a tiny economic superpower..
 
Miracles happen, but betting money on it is bad business.


That would depend on whoes money one was betting w/......lol

Everything looks cheaper when someone else is paying...... Or so my daughter seem to think.... Big smile

There are other cases all one really needs is say, big superpowers to favor you, give you their tax payer dollars, arms deals & contracts etc........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2010 at 02:55
I would remind Omar that the C of C also applies to his conduct as well. If he finds such an observation "haughty" then he has need of re-reading his own post. Of course, where alter-egos are involved...If one is to set forth a thread on Haiti then it would be best that they have more than just a passing acquaintance with its spelling. As one may deduce from the post above, the issue here is not discussion but a platform for "bashing" the old meanies with money or whatever disturbs the latest empty-head that comes down the left wing pike always manufacturing opinion so as to fit the latest (or really the same old) evil-doer into the tired deus ex machina of Marxist Theory.

Edited by drgonzaga - 18 Aug 2010 at 02:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2010 at 04:36
Originally posted by Bill Cosby Bill Cosby wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

And Dr Gonzaga, instead of just mocking threads and opinions when you think they are incorrect you could do us all the favour of explaining your position without the haughty attitude. In plain english, if you will, not everyone on this forum is fluent in English.


Amen................


This is unnecessary, Bill, you don't need to add any commentary to what Omar said.  In the future please refrain from such comments.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2010 at 07:47
Trying to get the thread back on track...
 
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Originally posted by Bill Cosby Bill Cosby wrote:

There is hope, there have been "Miracles"...........

Look @ Singapore........  A rotten hell hole full of rival gangs turned to a tiny economic superpower..
 
Miracles happen, but betting money on it is bad business.
I'm not sure it's fair to compare Singapore and Haiti. For starters their colonial histories hardly overlap. Singapore was a city built from scratch on an island off Johore. It was from the very beginning designed to take the crown of major south east asian trading port away from Jakata (Batavia). The English invested a lot of money into Singapore with this aim in mind. It just a rotten hell hole, it was a wealthy trading port.
 
Post independence, it has been ruled by one of the most intelligent and benevolant dictators in recent history. I think that any country ruled by Lee Kuan Yew for a substantial amount of time would do well, one that was already the major trading port on the route between China and the Indian Ocean is a different league.
 
The reputation that Malacca had as an entrepot in the 15th century is now the property of singapore. Singapore is the sucessor of Malacca and Batavia.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 18 Aug 2010 at 07:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2010 at 17:14
Omar, in re:  "Post independence, it has been ruled by one of the most intelligent and benevolant dictators in recent history. I think that any country ruled by Lee Kuan Yew for a substantial amount of time would do well, one that was already the major trading port on the route between China and the Indian Ocean is a different league."

Kruska also terms Lee Kwan Kew a 'dictator'. I believe that "authoritarian" is more accurate. Whatever they are, Singapore's politics are a reflection of the country's ethnic makeup, and ethnics has a lot to do with politics there. Therefore, the contribution of latent talents within Singapore's Chinese (and Indian)  communities to the country's development should not be overlooked. I can't imagine Lee Kwan Kew having any more Luck with Peru, for example, than Fujimori did. Ditto for Fiji. Now, if the Japanese-Peruvians had become a majority there, that would have been a different story.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2010 at 03:31
At this point I will go ahead and hide your thread above dear Doctor. Please refrain from accusing until we're sure of the status of a member.. in any case - both parties need to take a step back or we can close this thread. I understand there isn't much credibility to it from the begging, but let us be adults and at least try to find something. Shall we?

Edited by es_bih - 20 Aug 2010 at 03:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2010 at 16:20
How can one find reason or substance in the premise that banks are the source of Haiti's economic dislocation? The Haitian political leadership itself recognized over a century ago that the nature of land tenure and the fracture of subsistence in the country stood at the root of its economic misery. It will take more than a century to correct the ecological damage wrought upon the countryside even before the earthquake. Recall that even in his megalomania, Henri Christophe (Tazio Lambert) left a full treasury in his "castle" at his death in 1820.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2010 at 16:41
Bill Cosby's last post has been hidden, too. Thank you Dr Gonzaga as well for getting back on track with the discussion. 
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