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Topic ClosedFrancis of Assisi

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2017 at 15:31
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I want to know more about the story of Saint Francis and bilocation.  The biography of Francis, and the CD about Francis (by Great Courses), doesn't mention it, as not worthy of report.  But I think such things are a genuine part of the legend, not just of Francis, but Pythagoras and Lenin, I would like some accounting of them from the perspective of legend or myth.  Some medieval Aristotelians analyze bilocation through Aristotelianism and substance, but how that might work, I don't know.   We pretend like we would know what traveling to another time would be like, but bilocation seems way beyond the pale, and self-contradictory.

Francis had medieval biographers, they wrote about the stigmata at length. No doubt you'll find accounts of bi-location, I didn't know that about Francis.

In a multiverse with wizard level consciousness you could slay Balrog, spend a thousand years in the blink of an eye and come back all shiny. Didn't you see The Two Towers?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2017 at 11:07
I tend not to google.
I would rather hear your golden words;) than follow a link to a youtube video, or article.
I also tend not to quote when answering a post, maybe I should....

Francis was made the patron saint for the environment, by John Paul II, you can get a dog tag saying, "St Francis, Please protect my pet." or something like that.

I want to know more about the story of Saint Francis and bilocation.  The biography of Francis, and the CD about Francis (by Great Courses), doesn't mention it, as not worthy of report.  But I think such things are a genuine part of the legend, not just of Francis, but Pythagoras and Lenin, I would like some accounting of them from the perspective of legend or myth.  Some medieval Aristotelians analyze bilocation through Aristotelianism and substance, but how that might work, I don't know.   We pretend like we would know what traveling to another time would be like, but bilocation seems way beyond the pale, and self-contradictory.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 18:04
Yea Jorge is Pope Francis, don't you google? :)
Not mocking Francis, as saints go he is one that I've always admired. The so called authorities on Francis have said that his motives were martyrdom or conversion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 10:10
Who is this "Jorge"?  You say 'his' name is "Jorge..." but I don't know who this 'he' is.  Francis of Assisi?  Pope Francis?

It is very simple.  If it is a choice between death and eternity in hell, death is better.  If it is a choice between heretics leading people to hell, and killing heretics, then it is nicer to kill the heretics, than to allow them to convince people into hell.  You may not believe in heresy, or hell.  But given their beliefs, death is better than an eternity in hell.  Their beliefs have a certain kind of logic, you should be able to see that, even if you vehemently disagree with it.  You can mock it (as Voltaire did), but I doubt you, or anyone for that matter, can disprove it.
It is not until Voltaire that tolerence becomes accepted as an idea, if not always a reality, although toleration becomes an issue for Locke before that. 

Vanuatu, I guess I don't know about Theresa of Avila, I was thinking of Julian of Norwich.  (Julian?  Julian? Julian the apostate? not that can't be right....) <grin>  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2017 at 02:11
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

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No doubt the Papacy saw them as a threat, why else slaughter them all?

Ah, one of the great Christian acts of the time. If you don't agree with us, die!

And please, get his name right, Mr. Jorge Mario Bergoglio, or, if you were an Australia, plain old Jorge.LOL

But not to cast aspersions, times have changed, priests or postulants who disagree with Rome now are simply excommunicated.



Pope Jorge, what's wrong with that?LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2017 at 01:40
Vanuatu
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No doubt the Papacy saw them as a threat, why else slaughter them all?

Ah, one of the great Christian acts of the time. If you don't agree with us, die!

And please, get his name right, Mr. Jorge Mario Bergoglio, or, if you were an Australia, plain old Jorge.LOL

But not to cast aspersions, times have changed, priests or postulants who disagree with Rome now are simply excommunicated.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2017 at 01:05
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I don't think Francis of Assisi fought in the Crusades, he _went_ on the Crusade, because he wanted to get martyred.  He preached to the Muslims, but the sultan liked him too much and sent him home with gifts.  Some people have all the bad luck! :(

The Great Courses CD on St. Francis of Assisi said that the Albigensian heretics did not recognize the Catholics as Christian because of, amongst other things, their wealth and power.  I don't know what exactly is the relationship between the Cathars and the Albigensians were.  I believe the Crusade to the South of France was called the Albigensian Crusade?  Is that correct?

btw, I say "Francis of Assisi" because I am Protestant, and at least _I_ don't recognize saints as such.  The CD, however, was St. Francis.... and so I say the full name there.  Likewise, I am an American, and so I don't particularly recognize "Sir Isaac Newton," or "Sir Stephen Hawking."  It is nice they got "stirred" but we ran out the British because of that stuff.
Right, Francis went to convert the Muslims or die a martyr. As a young man he was involved in some skirmishes that were common between Italian cities in 12 century. During the crusade of Honorius lll Francis didn't likely do any fighting.

Albegensian refers to the geography of Southern France it was the term used by the papacy to describe the area called the Languedoc. 

"Origin of the name of LanguedocLanguedoc literally means "language of oc". The oc languages are traditionally opposed to the oil languages, oc and oil being the ancient forms of oui (yes)."

Before Charlemagne appointed lords of great families (comtal system) to rule this area it was taken and retaken by Goths and Germanic invaders, among others. After Charlemagne, the system broke down. These areas of Southern France were lorded over independently and not under the authority of any central government.  

The Cathars definitely distinguished themselves from papacy. They called themselves "Good Christians" as you learned Cathars rejected everything in the OT except for the Ten Commandments. They also denied the humanity , death and resurrection of Christ. Their idea of being a Christian was very far removed from the beliefs of papacy.

I agree about the saints, it's good to know who you are talking about otherwise it could Mr. Francis if it's up to me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2017 at 14:35
I don't think Francis of Assisi fought in the Crusades, he _went_ on the Crusade, because he wanted to get martyred.  He preached to the Muslims, but the sultan liked him too much and sent him home with gifts.  Some people have all the bad luck! :(

The Great Courses CD on St. Francis of Assisi said that the Albigensian heretics did not recognize the Catholics as Christian because of, amongst other things, their wealth and power.  I don't know what exactly is the relationship between the Cathars and the Albigensians were.  I believe the Crusade to the South of France was called the Albigensian Crusade?  Is that correct?

btw, I say "Francis of Assisi" because I am Protestant, and at least _I_ don't recognize saints as such.  The CD, however, was St. Francis.... and so I say the full name there.  Likewise, I am an American, and so I don't particularly recognize "Sir Isaac Newton," or "Sir Stephen Hawking."  It is nice they got "stirred" but we ran out the British because of that stuff.


Edited by franciscosan - 23 Jun 2017 at 14:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 13:16
Theresa of Avila was able to convince the Inquisition that hysterical nuns, who had these types of fits or speaking in tongues were not heretical. Very smart woman she convinced the Inquisition that the nuns were ill in the head "as if" it were the body. Of course many were killed for "confessions" of Luciferous congress.

Francis got support and protection from Pope Innocent lll, after all he fought in the crusades against heretics. 

I do believe the debate over whether Cathars were Christians or not goes on, they themselves referred to the "Good Men" or "Parfaits" for higher ranking devotees.  I don't believe they called themselves Christians but they were definitely all about Jesus. In some manuscripts Christ was depicted with female breasts and women were considered equals to men. 

As I understand the history, the troubadours were a remnant of the Good Men as the Christians who lived among the Cathars called them. Troubadours and bards were a legacy of the Cathars. And the Code for Living said to have come from Byzantium and before that the Pythagoreans was distorted over time and that became Courtly Love.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 09:24
He also probably had something else that Abelard lacked.  Not only were the Cathars heretical, but they refused to recognize (and repent) their heretical views.  In that they were a threat.   I wonder what the Orthodox Christian view on heresy was, "Orthodox" as in Greek, Syriac, Russian etc. Orthodox.

The are certain Church Fathers who are not saints because they are not Orthodox, but held heretical views before they were heretical.  They are still Church Fathers.  There is the medieval mystic Meister Eckhart who although he is not a saint, is not heretical either, because he died before the Inquisition sent to investigate his views arrived at the monastery.  There are other mystics who although their views are a little out there, were within the Church.  I think that Theresa of Avila was that way.

Francis would have been fringe, but he went to the Pope and got his endorsement for a back-to-basics campaign, which provided a positive alternative to the heretical movements that were claiming that Catholicism was not Christian.



Edited by franciscosan - 22 Jun 2017 at 09:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 01:24
No doubt the Papacy saw them as a threat, why else slaughter them all? Peter Abelard also offered an "out" to the church by pointing out the vanity of pretending to know God's will. Although Abelard may have been mistaken in own vanity he at least challenged the ethics of religious supremacy as being separate from morality.  

Francis was a supreme mystic but he didn't tell the Pope, for all his modesty he had a grasp of reality that Abelard lacked.


Edited by Vanuatu - 22 Jun 2017 at 01:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2017 at 07:51
Listened to a course on Francis of Assisi recently, and found it interesting.  In the 13th century, the Catholic Church was facing criticism from heretics who claimed that the wealth of the Catholic Church showed that it was not possible to truly be Christian and Catholic at the same time.  Francis, when he started his ministry, went to the Pope and got his blessing to found an order that believed in poverty and preaching the message, like the Apostles did.  Other orders believe in personal poverty, but collectively can be quite wealthy.  The Franciscans believed in both personal and collective poverty.

In a way, Francis offered a solution to the Church, and the Pope (Innocent III), for the condemnation of Catholicism by the heretics.  Of course, we should remember that the heretics, (Albigensians, Cathars), were not heretical in their own opinion.  I also wonder if the heretics just wanted space to give a differing opinion, or whether they were a real threat to the Catholic Church.
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