| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Francis of Assisi
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Francis of Assisi

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
franciscosan View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 1973
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Francis of Assisi
    Posted: 10 May 2017 at 21:51
Listened to a course on Francis of Assisi recently, and found it interesting.  In the 13th century, the Catholic Church was facing criticism from heretics who claimed that the wealth of the Catholic Church showed that it was not possible to truly be Christian and Catholic at the same time.  Francis, when he started his ministry, went to the Pope and got his blessing to found an order that believed in poverty and preaching the message, like the Apostles did.  Other orders believe in personal poverty, but collectively can be quite wealthy.  The Franciscans believed in both personal and collective poverty.

In a way, Francis offered a solution to the Church, and the Pope (Innocent III), for the condemnation of Catholicism by the heretics.  Of course, we should remember that the heretics, (Albigensians, Cathars), were not heretical in their own opinion.  I also wonder if the heretics just wanted space to give a differing opinion, or whether they were a real threat to the Catholic Church.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 782
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 15:24
No doubt the Papacy saw them as a threat, why else slaughter them all? Peter Abelard also offered an "out" to the church by pointing out the vanity of pretending to know God's will. Although Abelard may have been mistaken in own vanity he at least challenged the ethics of religious supremacy as being separate from morality.  

Francis was a supreme mystic but he didn't tell the Pope, for all his modesty he had a grasp of reality that Abelard lacked.


Edited by Vanuatu - 21 Jun 2017 at 15:41
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 1973
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 23:24
He also probably had something else that Abelard lacked.  Not only were the Cathars heretical, but they refused to recognize (and repent) their heretical views.  In that they were a threat.   I wonder what the Orthodox Christian view on heresy was, "Orthodox" as in Greek, Syriac, Russian etc. Orthodox.

The are certain Church Fathers who are not saints because they are not Orthodox, but held heretical views before they were heretical.  They are still Church Fathers.  There is the medieval mystic Meister Eckhart who although he is not a saint, is not heretical either, because he died before the Inquisition sent to investigate his views arrived at the monastery.  There are other mystics who although their views are a little out there, were within the Church.  I think that Theresa of Avila was that way.

Francis would have been fringe, but he went to the Pope and got his endorsement for a back-to-basics campaign, which provided a positive alternative to the heretical movements that were claiming that Catholicism was not Christian.



Edited by franciscosan - 21 Jun 2017 at 23:48
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 782
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 03:16
Theresa of Avila was able to convince the Inquisition that hysterical nuns, who had these types of fits or speaking in tongues were not heretical. Very smart woman she convinced the Inquisition that the nuns were ill in the head "as if" it were the body. Of course many were killed for "confessions" of Luciferous congress.

Francis got support and protection from Pope Innocent lll, after all he fought in the crusades against heretics. 

I do believe the debate over whether Cathars were Christians or not goes on, they themselves referred to the "Good Men" or "Parfaits" for higher ranking devotees.  I don't believe they called themselves Christians but they were definitely all about Jesus. In some manuscripts Christ was depicted with female breasts and women were considered equals to men. 

As I understand the history, the troubadours were a remnant of the Good Men as the Christians who lived among the Cathars called them. Troubadours and bards were a legacy of the Cathars. And the Code for Living said to have come from Byzantium and before that the Pythagoreans was distorted over time and that became Courtly Love.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 1973
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2017 at 04:35
I don't think Francis of Assisi fought in the Crusades, he _went_ on the Crusade, because he wanted to get martyred.  He preached to the Muslims, but the sultan liked him too much and sent him home with gifts.  Some people have all the bad luck! :(

The Great Courses CD on St. Francis of Assisi said that the Albigensian heretics did not recognize the Catholics as Christian because of, amongst other things, their wealth and power.  I don't know what exactly is the relationship between the Cathars and the Albigensians were.  I believe the Crusade to the South of France was called the Albigensian Crusade?  Is that correct?

btw, I say "Francis of Assisi" because I am Protestant, and at least _I_ don't recognize saints as such.  The CD, however, was St. Francis.... and so I say the full name there.  Likewise, I am an American, and so I don't particularly recognize "Sir Isaac Newton," or "Sir Stephen Hawking."  It is nice they got "stirred" but we ran out the British because of that stuff.


Edited by franciscosan - 23 Jun 2017 at 04:39
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.