| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Genocide: Some Historical Reflections
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Genocide: Some Historical Reflections

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
RonPrice View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Location: George Town Tas
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonPrice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Genocide: Some Historical Reflections
    Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 11:00

Since I retired from FT, PT and casual-employment in the years 1999 to 2005, after a 50 year student and paid employment life from 1949 to 1999, I have been recreating myself as a writer and author, poet and publisher, editor and researcher, reader and scholar, and online blogger and journalist.  During the years, 1999 to 2014,  I have taken an interest in the subject of genocide. The following prose-poems, some 14 A-4 pages and 4000 words, are a reflection of this interest.


Readers who find the following far too long for their reading sensibilities are advised to: (i) skim or scan, (ii) read until your eyes glaze over or you lose interest or (iii) just stop reading now. I do any one of all three of these choices all the time . If I tried to read everything on all subjects, I'd drown in words. The following is for those with a special interest in the subject.


I was not sure where to post this item at this history site. In the end I went for the Armenian genocide and I trust my post will provide a useful, a helpful, general perspective on the topic.

__________________________________

______________________

Counting Hell

Last night I revisited Cambodia’s Killing Fields on the ABC's 4 Corners program “Where Are They Now?”1  I read some of the commentary on the subject and the writing of Bruce Sharp2 interested me the most.  In his essay Counting Hell, Sharp wrote  that we are confronted with incomplete and inconclusive evidence, and it is tempting, therefore, to say that we will never really see the full picture of what happened in Cambodia’s Killing Fields from April 1975 to January 1979.  It is also tempting to say that after more than thirty years have passed, it is time to move on.  So much of the contemporary scene and of history is so often “a time to move on.”  History is, as Edward Gibbon once wrote, “little more than the register of the crimes, follies, and misfortunes of mankind.”

To the German-Swiss novelist and poet, Hermann Hesse, as he put it in his The Glass Bead Game, the study of history means “submitting to chaos and nevertheless retaining faith in order and meaning. It is a very serious task.”  Perhaps the most apt definition of history insofar as The Killing Fields is concerned is the one from James Joyce in his Ulysses. “History,” Joyce wrote, “is a nightmare from which I am trying to wake.”

Historians are accustomed now to the idea of genocide. Cambodia was not the first occurrence of genocide and it will not be the last. There have been a myriad newer crimes since 1979. “Do we still need to worry about the old ones?” Sharp asks rhetorically. Why should we bother with numbers? One and a half million, two and a half million deaths in Cambodia: does it matter? There was once a time when these were not merely numbers. These numbers had names, and that is why it matters, he concludes.2-Ron Price with thanks to1 “Where Are They Now?” 4 Corners, ABC1 TV, 27/6/’11, 8:30 p.m.,  2the link: http://www.mekong.net/cambodia/bsharp.htm, and 3the internet site Cambodia, 1 April 2005.

It was a big year ’79.  Those killing

fields came to an end, the revolution

in Iran took place and I settled into a

life in Tasmania at the age of 35 Y.O.

I was in Ballarat at the CAE during all

those years of 1 to 2 million deaths in

Cambodia. I was busy reading so many

books, helping the Baha’i community &

surviving another 4 years of marriage-

family and community responsibilities

until I was worn-out due to my own wars,

my own hell with bipolar-disorder……and

Cambodia was at least a million miles away

in another world, indeed, another universe.

Ron Price

28/6/'11 to 9/10/'14.

 GENOCIDE

Part 1:

Levon Chorbajian notes in the introduction to Studies in Comparative Genocide by Adam Jones1 that "our current state of theorizing about genocide is the product of a recent, incomplete and evolving process as well as a contested one."  Chorbajian points out that the "systematic study of genocide is only 25 years old.  The relative newness of this field of inquiry lends the subject of comparative genocide studies much of its urgency and vigour.  It also accounts, as Chorbajian suggests, for continuing debates over core definitions and applications.-Ron Price with thanks to 1Adam Jones, Studies in Comparative Genocide, edited by Levon Chorbajian and George Shirinian, Macmillan, 1999.

This book has its origins in a conference on genocide held in Yerevan, the capital of the Republic of Armenia, in 1995. The conference brought together many of the most prominent names in this young field, including Yehuda Bauer, Vahakn Dadrian, Helen Fein, Henry Huttenbach, the Cambodia specialist Ben Kiernan, and Ervin Staub, author of The Roots of Evil. The published papers from the conference, though predictably uneven, represent an exceptional contribution to the theorizing of genocide, and to the continuing search for markers and "early warning" signs that might allow outside forces to intervene more intelligently, and directly, in cases of genocide and other mass atrocities.

Part 2:

Studies in Comparative Genocide was published the year I took a sea-change and retired early after a 50 year student-working life: 1949-1999.  I have taken an interest in the subject of genocide due to my association with the Baha’i Faith for over 60 years. The literature on genocide in relation to the Bahá'í community of Iran is now extensive, and there is now an extensive documentation that can easily be accessed in cyberspace.  Baha’is, and the precursor religion with which it is intimately associated, Babism, have been officially persecuted since the 1840s. Some 200 Baha'is have been executed and hundreds of thousands forced to convert or be subjected to the most horrendous disabilities since the revolution in Iran in 1979.  Systematic targeting of the leadership of the Bahá'í community by killing or disappearance was focused on the Bahá'í National Spiritual Assembly and Local Spiritual Assemblies across Iran in the last 35 years.  Like most conservative Muslims, Khomeini believed Bahá'ís to be apostates and issued a fatwa stating:

It is not acceptable for a non-Muslim to change his religion to another religion not recognized by the followers of the previous religion. Jews who become Baha’is have a choice to accept Islam or be executed.

Part 3:

Khomeini emphasized that the Bahá'ís would not receive any religious rights, since he believed that the Bahá'ís were a political rather than religious movement. Allegations of Bahá'í involvement with other political powers have long been repeated in many venues with resulting denunciations from the president.  Conversion from Judaism and Zoroastrianism to the Baha’i Faith is well documented since the 1850s; such a change of status removed any legal and social protections.

More recently, documentation has been provided that shows governmental intent to destroy the Bahá'í community. The government has intensified propaganda and hate speech against Bahá'ís through the Iranian media; Bahá'ís are often attacked and dehumanized on political, religious, and social grounds to separate Bahá'ís from the rest of society.  Of all non-Muslim religious minorities the persecution of the Baha’is has been the most widespread, systematic, and uninterrupted. In contrast to other non-Muslim minorities, the Baha’is are spread throughout the country in villages, small towns, and various cities, fuelling a social-paranoia throughout Iran.

Since the 1979 revolution, the authorities have destroyed most or all of the Baha'i holy places in Iran, including the House of the Bab in Shiraz, a house in Tehran where Bahá'u'lláh was brought up, and other sites connected to aspects of Babi and Baha'i history. These demolitions have sometimes been followed by other crimes like the desecration of cemetaries in a deliberate act of triumphalism.  In addition the Bahá'í Institute for Higher Education(BIHE), "an elaborate act of communal self-preservation", has been systematically raided. Between 1987 and 2005 the Iranian authorities closed down the Institute several times as part of the pattern of suppressing the Bahá'í community. Between September 30 and October 3 1998, and most recently again in 2014, officials from the Ministry of Intelligence entered the homes of academic staff of the BIHE, seizing books, computers and personal effects as well as shutting down buildings used for the school.-Ron Price with thanks to “Cultural Genocide,” Wikipedia, 19/9/’14.

It is such a long story going

back to the 1840s and in my

lifetime to the 1950s, & me

in a culture where people do

not give a tuppence what are

your religious beliefs as long

as you drink beer or wine, &

take an interest in football, &

don’t take religion seriously.

 

Religion here is like a custom;

It’s something you take on like

a feeling you get when you go

into a church. Catholic, Jew, &

Protestant—a complacent trinity,

part of a small, safe & familiar

world they grew-up in and so

hang-on to like an old-doll or

dummy for psycho-comfort….

 

Ah well, it’s better than all that

fanatical anti-Baha’i stuff I’ve

been reading about in Iran all my

Baha’i life. I think I’ll take the big

doses of indifference that have been

my lot since I was in my teens, and

my friends found out I actually took

my religion seriously and it was not

the same stuff they all got in church

and did not give a tuppence-apeny

for, anyway, most of the time..time.

Ron Price

19/11/’12 to 9/10/'14.

_______________________________________________________

A QUESTION OF JUSTICE

Part 1:

The rule of the Pol Pot-led Khmer Rouge first came onto my radar in the late 1970s when I was up-to-my-ears in my own life's battles. I had my own psychological killing fields to worry-about as I bottomed-out yet again on my journey, my life-narrative.  Last night Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge were back on my agenda at about 3 a.m. when I got up from my 12 hours-in-bed-a-day for a cup-of-tea.

"The Khmer Rouge: A Question of Justice" on SBSONE1 was being televised in the middle of the night and the middle of an Australian autumn season. The focus of this film was the faltering attempts at providing Khmer Rouge victims with long overdue justice.  When the atrocities were ending and the Khmer Rouge were ousted from rule in Cambodia in early January 1979, I was just settling-in to my second period of years in far-off Tasmania where I had first come back in September 1973 to a job at what is now the University of Tasmania. With a wife and 3 children, and the rigors of bipolar disorder winging their wild-fires on my emotions I was simply unable to take-in the horrors of April 1975 to January 1979 and, for that matter, the next 19 years of Khmer Rouge soldiers waging guerilla warfare.

Part 2:

In 1999 I stopped my 60 to 80 hour a week life of nose-to-the-grindstone stuff that had kept me busy in a myriad of different ways from 1949 to 1999. I took an early retirement at the age of 55 and began working out how to go on a disability pension. This I achieved by the age of 60 in 2004.  I was finally able to devote myself to a life of writing and editing, research and study, poetizing and publishing. The court set up in the late 1990s and, with Pol-Pot finally dead, it began its work in 2006. By then I had also retired from PT and casual employment and was engaged in a 60 hour literary-work-week at the bottom-end of the world in my third period of years in Tasmania.

Watching this doco on TV last night made me more aware of the incompetence and ineffectiveness of the court, the corruption, the lengthy trial proceedings and the complicated political issues involved in the years 2006 to 2014. Since I retired form FT work in early 1999 neither Cambodia's local civil society organizations nor its citizens have had much say in the functioning of the tribunal. They follow it on TV for the most part and justice can not be arrived at due to the fact that the court can not prosecute individuals who are currently part of the government.2-Ron Price with thanks to 1SBSONE TV, 2:40 a.m. to 4:20 a.m., 8/10/'14 and 2Lak Chansok, "Can Khmer Rouge Survivors Get Justice?" The Diplomat, 30/5/'14.

2 Lak Chansok is a lecturer at Institute of Foreign Languages’s Department of International Studies, Royal University of Phnom Penh, and has been a research fellow at the Cambodian Institute for Cooperation and Peace.

__________________________________________________

GENOCIDE AND ME

Ben Kiernan tells us that “genocide” is a very new word, invented in 1944 by a Polish Jew named Raphael Lemkin in his book Axis Rule in Occupied Europe, and given legal definition by the United Nations in 1948 through The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. That convention defines the crime of genocide as “an attempt at extermination through acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, racial, ethnical, or religious group.”1

My life beginning, as it did, in that same year 1944 has seen many an example of genocide which I won’t list here or cite in any detail, but there is one group with whom I have been personally associated and this simple prose-poem deals with that group.–Ron Price with thanks to 1Blood and Soil: A World History of Genocide and Extermination from Sparta to Darfur by Ben Kiernan, Yale University Press, 2008.

I will say, though, that

the religion I have now

been associated with for

more than 60 years has

also been associated with

the word genocide in the

land of its birth; it has been

this fierce opposition and

hatred that has been the

chief instrument for the

spread of its organization

& form to every corner of 

the planet. I have seen this

in my lifetime since the

beginning of the second

century of the Baha’i Era

while I have lived and had

my being-& the story is far

from over in this century!!

 

Ron Price

20/11/'11 to 9/10/'14.

_____________________________________________________

STARS IN A PARALLEL UNIVERSE

 

Section 1:

 

In 1994, as I was heading into my last five years of employment as a teacher and tutor, lecturer and adult educator, the ruling Hutu government in the then small African nation of Rwanda, set out to eradicate its Tutsi minority. The Rwandan Genocide, as this eradication program came to be called, consisted of the mass murder of an estimated 800,000 people. The Hutu people alleged that the Tutsi minority held an unfair monopoly of power in Rwanda.

 

The majority Hutu people had come to power in the rebellion, the revolt, of 1959–62 which overthrew the Tutsi monarchy, and established a republic. I was just 15 years old in 1959, had just joined the Baha’i Faith, and played a lot of baseball, hockey and football in a small town in southern Ontario. By 1962 I was working on my matriculation studies and had begun to travel and pioneer for the Canadian Baha’i community.

 

Section 2:

 

In the colonialist period, under Belgian rule before 1959, the Tutsis and Hutus, the two ethnic groups concerned, had come to hate each other through systematized inequality and a struggle for power.  It is a somewhat complex story that can be easily read by those interested.  I shall say no more here.  I certainly knew none of this back around 1960, occupied as I was with my local agenda, with growing-up, in the small town culture of Burlington Ontario.

 

In August 1998 the largest war in modern African history began. Called the Second Congo War, it began on the eve of my retirement after 50 years in classrooms: 1949 to 1999.  It directly involved eight African nations as well as about 25 armed groups. It took place in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.  By 2008, the war and its aftermath had killed 5.4 million people mostly from disease and starvation. This war was the deadliest conflict worldwide since World War II.  Millions more were displaced from their homes or sought asylum in neighbouring countries. 

 

By then, by 2008, I was  fully ensconced in retirement, had taken a sea-change, was on a pension, and was still as far removed from all this slaughter in Africa as I had been 14 years before. I had, though, begun the recreation of my life and its narrative from a teacher and tutor to writer and author, student and researcher, online blogger and journalist.-Ron Price with thanks to "All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace",  SBSONE TV,  8:30-9:30 p.m. Parts 1-3, 18/10/’11 to 1/11/’11.

 

So much of the world’s slaughter

goes on in some parallel universe

as one eats one’s evening meal &

tries to get through one’s own life

unscathed by the slings-&-arrows

of some outrageous fortune..And

Ill-equipped to interpret the social

commotion at play throughout the

planet, we listen to the pundits of

error & sink deeperinto the slough

of despond, troubled by forecasts

of doom and doing battle with our1

wrongly informed imaginations as

our days pass swiftly like those tiny

twinkling stars that fill a night sky!!

 

1 Ridvan message 1999, The Universal House of Justice

 

Ron Price 2/11/'11 to 9/10/14.

 

MEANDERING

 

In the Old Testament, in Genesis 11:31, Abraham is portrayed as leaving the city of Ur, as commanded by God, to cross the desert wilderness to Haran.  Other manifestations of God in the great religions are also required to move from place to place.  But, as far as I know, the Bahá'í Faith is the only religion on earth that has its beginnings in a refugee experience, commanded not by God, but by man, to leave its place of origin, its homeland.  The experience of community in a prison colony, a type of concentration camp would come to provide a relevant metaphorical base for its future struggle. 

 

Its early history also experienced an attempt at genocide, an attempt not yet entirely finished.  That early history has affected and will affect the Bahá'í community, perhaps, forever.   The years of being convicts, the prison years, were relatively short, 1867-1907.  Certainly by the time of ‘Abdu’l-Baha’s Western tour in 1912 they were well and truly over.  But they would affect the community for centuries to come. -Ron Price, Pioneering Over Four Epochs, May 30th 2006.

 

You can’t have birds flying dead,

candles stuck in flesh and heads

rolling around in a lounge-room,

thousands dying over decades,

prison cells, bodies smashed

to smithereens without it affecting

the way you live, move and are.

 

A telescopic-lens to look at

one’s universe is born out of

all this horror and violence,

a lens to see it all as one single,

divinely inspired current, vision,

dogma, principle of such magnitude

and emotional potency--a oneness,

no unwitting over-simplification, nor

mankind’s presumptuous construction?

 

The impulse to envisage, comprehend

the whole of life is deep within us

and the individual seems obliged,

under pain of being stunted, enfeebled

in his own development, if he disobeys

to carry others along with him in his

march to perfection, to be continually

doing all he can to enlarge the volume

of the human stream sweeping along

and flowing down from mountain,

meandering to the great ocean of life.

 

Ron Price

30/5/'06 to 9/10/14.

__________________________________________________________

MANUFACTURING

 

On 1 June 1962, as I finished my high school exams in Canada, and about 12 weeks before my Baha’i travelling-pioneering life began near the end of August, Adolf Eichmann, the Nazi boss responsible for transporting 100s of thousands of Jews to death camps, was executed.  Research Professor of history and specialist in Jewish history, David Cesarani, argues that Eichmann had a corporate mentality and that he made a conscious career decision to do what he did within the immense bureaucratic wheel of the German totalitarian state.

 

He was not an embodiment of evil, not a brutal, depraved, an ideologically-driven psychopath.  These popular views are a myth, Cesarani argues.  He learned to be an anti-semite; he learned to hate and chose to be part of the genocide process.  He was part of a “paperwork-based collapse of morality.”  He was in many ways a detached, passionless administrator, as the sociologist Max Weber describes such men so well;  he was an ordinary, common, far from atypical man, a graduate in mechanical engineering.  He could have been, so argues Cesarani, you or I.-Ron Price with thanks to David Cesarani, Eichmann: His Life and Times, Vintage, 2004.

 

You can get a man’s life so

wrong, even if you study him

for years; and you can get your

own life quite wrong even though

you live it decade in and decade out,

for man, it is said, is God’s mystery.

 

You certainly found, as the decades

rolled insensibly and sensibly by,

some bad, false wretched fame,

notoriety, a failed celebrity,

mortifying failure, a career move

in the wrong direction, a socio-historical,

ideological apparatus and a psycho-social

profile that manufactured you

as they manufacture us

with enough autonomy thrown-in

so that we can call ourselves free

even if we are everywhere in chains

in the Most Great Prison that is our life,

in which we cannot walk away but

in which there is always a degree of

voluntarism, there are always half-truths

and we must manage our lives within

a new structure of freedom for our age.

 

Ron Price

23/12/'05 to 9/10/'14.

_________________________________________________________

NADIR OF CIVILIZATION?

 

In the months both before and after I was born in 1944, Jewish prisoners were exterminated in a planned program of genocide in Nazi concentration camps.  Auschwitz had the biggest killing machine of all the camps.  It was situated in Poland southwest of Krakow and between 1 and 1.5 million Jews were gassed from 1942 to 1944.  In September 1944 the deportation of Jews to Auschwitz ended, and in November 1944 the gassing operations ceased.  The camp of Auschwitz was liberated on January 27th 1945.  That was nearly 70 years ago, as I revise this original prose-poem. 

 

 It seems to have taken me at least 50 years of living before the power of understanding, and the reinforcements of the electronic media, have enabled me to see the holocaust in any kind of perspective, of conceptual integration.  What I was born into back in July of 1944, that 'final solution' as it was sometimes called, I had no idea even existed until at least my mid-to-late teens in the late 1950s and early 1960s, more than half a century ago.  The light, the darkness, dawned on me insensibly over six decades.  -Ron Price with thanks to “Auschwitz: The Nazis and the Final Solution,” ABC TV, 9:25-10:15 p.m., 13/10/'05-3/11/'05, and 9/10/'14.

 

The gassing stopped before

I was four months old,

little did I know then

in those early months

of life in the lunch-pail

city of Hamilton Ontario

Canada a million miles away

with a 40 year old mother,

a 55 year old father,

a 70 year old grandfather

helping me into my world

on the edge of a Canadian Lake.

 

Surely that was the nadir, then,

of civilization’s journey, surely?

But the dark heart had yet to come,

the darkest hours of a slough of despond

when, in a brief span of time, so charged

with potential and hope for all of humankind

I would inscribe my mark and assist in the

operation of forces that would lead us out

of the valley of that misery and shame

which bestrewed my years and my father’s---

to the loftiest summits of majesty and glory.1

 

1The Universal House of Justice, Ridvan 1996.

 

Ron Price

28/10/'05 to 9/10/'14.

____________________________________________________

THE INTERNET: ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

The internet now has a great deal of material on the subject of genocide in addition to an online game entitled Genocide. One such example is: The Second Regional Forum on the Prevention of Genocide took place in Arusha, Tanzania on March 3–5, 2010.  The Regional Fora on the Prevention of Genocide are co-organized by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation of the United Republic of Tanzania, the Swiss Federal Department of Foreign Affairs (FDFA) and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, International Commerce and Religion of the Nation of Argentina.

 

The First Regional Forum took place in December 2008 in Argentina, and the next forum is scheduled to be held in Asia in 2011. Two additional examples are: (i) the Fourth Regional Forum on the Prevention of Genocide Co-organized by the Governments of Argentina, Cambodia, Switzerland and Tanzania, 28 February – 1 March 2013; and (ii) The New York Review of Books has an article on the problems the definition of genocide is causing, a case of where the popular definition of the word clashes with a legal one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Edited by RonPrice - 10 Oct 2014 at 11:02
married for 47 years, a teacher for 32, a student for 18, a writer and editor for 15 and a Baha'i for 55(in 2014)
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2014 at 17:19
Interesting. Are you interested in the genocide of American Indians as well, or only in Cambodia's Pol Pot genocide?

A point of view from the antipodes
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2014 at 22:21
The issue is complicated because the American Indians suffered gravely from introduced diseases.

Of course, that's not a form a genocide. Especially considering microbes were discovered until the mid 1800s.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2014 at 01:34
Sure. But it is historically true that most Indians didn't die of common cold at all. It was the greed and criminality of the Europeans what destroyed most natives. The genocides are well known and documented, actually. And no matter there were some important infectious diseases, we shouldn't use that as a smoke curtain to hide the crimes of the European colonizers and exploiters.
A point of view from the antipodes
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4246
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2014 at 05:07
Pinguin:

As far as Amerindians are concerned, I don't know a great deal, but I'm not aware of any deliberate genocide as such being carried out in either North America or South America.

From what I've read over the years, I believe that there were many atrocities, including mass murder, carried out on Indian people, but, where whole tribes have been obliterated, it's my understanding, particularly in South America, it was due to the introduction of, in many cases, minor diseases to which the Indians had no natural defence.

Assuming what I've written is true, this couldn't be called genocide.

Do you have any historical evidence of genocide in your region?
Once you eliminate the impossible,
whatever remains,
no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
Back to Top
Alburz View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar
Shogun

Joined: 20 Oct 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 135
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alburz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2014 at 15:03
Not to feed the fire but I have seen the cases in some old western movies that some individuals distribute infected blankets among American Indians in North America to get rid of the tribe and seize their land by  speculators or pioneers. If it was done systematically in large scale, it can be called genocide. Since it is deliberately wiping them up.

Edited by Alburz - 02 Nov 2014 at 15:05
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4246
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2014 at 22:28
Originally posted by Alburz Alburz wrote:


Not to feed the fire but I have seen the cases in some old western movies that some individuals distribute infected blankets among American Indians in North America to get rid of the tribe and seize their land by  speculators or pioneers. If it was done systematically in large scale, it can be called genocide. Since it is deliberately wiping them up.


I wouldn't bee to keen to use Hollywood movies as reference material when discussing history.

I'd just like to see some historically accurate evidence of Ameroindian genocide-if it exists.
Once you eliminate the impossible,
whatever remains,
no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2014 at 00:39
Originally posted by Alburz Alburz wrote:

Not to feed the fire but I have seen the cases in some old western movies that some individuals distribute infected blankets among American Indians in North America to get rid of the tribe and seize their land by  speculators or pioneers. If it was done systematically in large scale, it can be called genocide. Since it is deliberately wiping them up.


There are documented cases in North America where it really happened. Now, most Indians didn't die of contagious diseases but shot. In North America was common to kill Indians to rob theirs land, and sometimes the invaders just killed the game to starve Indians to death. And they made no difference between males, females or children.

In Latin America genocide was addresses to males, and that's why most people of the region present a genetic imbalance, where most Y-Chromosomes are European but most mtDNA is Amerindian. In this region in particular Indians were forced to work in inhuman conditions to dead, in search of gold, silver or working on plantations. It is not surprising Indians overworked, badly fed and tortured daily, ended sick and die.

What is undeniable is that in the Americas, the Pacific and Australia there was a massive genocide, product of the invasion and colonization. There were millions, perhaps ten or 20 million victims, product of the European invasion and ambition. It was the largest genocide up to the civilian victims of World War II.

The worst is that people in many English speaking countries, act as if this never happened, and blame bacterias only for this crime.




Edited by pinguin - 03 Nov 2014 at 00:47
A point of view from the antipodes
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2014 at 00:57
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Pinguin:

As far as Amerindians are concerned, I don't know a great deal, but I'm not aware of any deliberate genocide as such being carried out in either North America or South America.

From what I've read over the years, I believe that there were many atrocities, including mass murder, carried out on Indian people, but, where whole tribes have been obliterated, it's my understanding, particularly in South America, it was due to the introduction of, in many cases, minor diseases to which the Indians had no natural defence.

Assuming what I've written is true, this couldn't be called genocide.

Do you have any historical evidence of genocide in your region?


Actually, In Latin America we have a clear picture of what happened during the conquest and colonial times. Spaniards may be criminals, but also they were excellent accountants and lawyers. They registered everything, including theirs own crimes. With a degree of detail that's really shocking.

Spaniards wiped out large number of tribes, and killed a lot of people. Mainly in wars of conquest, but also for making people work to death. Tortures where unbelievable cruel, including impaling, cutting hands or blind the natives that opposed them. Matters became better with time when the crown intervene and dictate laws to protect Indians. In the Caribbean that marked the beginning of African slavery, whom lacked any protection at all and became the focus of the Spanish exploitation.

By the end of Colonial times, the Spanish territories in the Americas had changed so much that now it was the place where natives were treated better. For instance, the Spanish crowd started to vaccinated natives in the 18th century! That's why many natives migrated from Brazil and from British (or American) territories to Spanish ruled lands. Today, most natives in the Americas survived in Spanish territories... Even after the initial genocide that Spanish committed in the New World, particularly in the Caribbean (Read Father Las Casas: A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies)







A point of view from the antipodes
Back to Top
Alburz View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar
Shogun

Joined: 20 Oct 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 135
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alburz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2014 at 06:07
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Pinguin:

As far as Amerindians are concerned, I don't know a great deal, but I'm not aware of any deliberate genocide as such being carried out in either North America or South America.

From what I've read over the years, I believe that there were many atrocities, including mass murder, carried out on Indian people, but, where whole tribes have been obliterated, it's my understanding, particularly in South America, it was due to the introduction of, in many cases, minor diseases to which the Indians had no natural defence.

Assuming what I've written is true, this couldn't be called genocide.

Do you have any historical evidence of genocide in your region?
Read about Indian long trail in American history when many Indian tribes from different corners of the United States were pilled up together and forced to take a long journey and relocated through winter. Many died in the way and the survivors were cramped in Oklahoma Indian reserve.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4246
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2014 at 07:02
Pinguin:

Can you supply some references please?

Alburz:

I know about the Long March, but I wouldn't call that genocide. True, many people died but of neglect or misadventure rather than as a result of a deliberate actions intended to cause death.
Once you eliminate the impossible,
whatever remains,
no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2014 at 10:01
Read the chronicles of the conquest, starting from Father Las Casas' book on the destruction of the Indies.
A point of view from the antipodes
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4246
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2014 at 13:22
The inadvertent spread of disease to which the invaders had a certain tolerance does not mean that it is genocide.

Genocide is when a country (or its forces) intentionally set out to eliminate the population of another country, or ethnic groups within its own borders.

Biased writings of South Americans about the invading Spanish still don't amount to genocide.
Once you eliminate the impossible,
whatever remains,
no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Online
Points: 2498
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2015 at 05:09
It seems to me that an analysis of what happened over a 400 year period in the Americas is not going to help in an analysis of a genocide today.  It is important to realize what is happening as close to time T=0 as possible for a genocide starting up.  In general there is a window where the genocide is happening, if your Jewish in Germany in 1930 or 1948, you might get some anti-semitism, but you will (fortunately) miss the big show.  How do we shorten, defuse or postpone a genocide and miss that window?  Defining 400 years of Indian "mistreatment," as "genocide" kind of makes the overall concept more fuzzy, and in my opinion, less useful in preventing genocides in the future.  
Back to Top
wolfhnd View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 816
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2015 at 07:08
It's all about the means isn't it?  If you buy into the global warming hysteria (which I don't) then we know the means but not the out come only that the cost will be born primarily by the less sophisticated.  That of course ignores the idea that criminality predisposes both intent and the competence to know you are committing a crime.  To a large extent both of those elements are missing in most genocides.  Genocides usually start out as small scale reactions to the perception that a group of people are undesirable which escalates into taking action to remove that group either by killing them or deporting them or both.  The difficult part is in accessing if the people committing genocide think they are committing a crime or are morally incompetent enough to simply think they are doing what is in the best interest of civilization.

So let's say for the sake of argument that hunter gather societies stand in the way of technological progress.  I would argue that technological progress is in the interest of all people but some would not agree so we will just assume that it is an established fact.  Accepting the above premises we could then conclude that the "genocide" of Native Americans was partially justified but considering the technical competence of many Jews (for example Einstein) that the Nazi genocide was a crime against humanity.  So now we are down to if the means justify the ends and that produces and argument that is not so easy to access by any means.  Instead of typing out pages of argument I will simply say that the measure of a civilization may very well be how human rights are extended to even those who do not represent the interest of the majority.  The human rights of minorities are protected by law so as to insure that even a democracy does not become a mob.

While difficult for many people to understand the extension of rights without regard to innocence or guilt insures that none of us will have our rights violated by creating an environment in which order can be maintained under even the most difficult of social stresses.

The above argument insures that Genocide can never be justified under the principle of the protection of the law and isn't dependent on circumstances.  Many anarchist consider themselves extremely sophisticated thinkers but often that pseudo sophistication can become a trap.  Justice is blind precisely because complexity renders even the most advanced logic inadequate.  We judge people not because we can realistically consider all the facts but because we must sit in judgement for practical reasons always assuming there are factors both beyond our control and that there are inadequacies in our logic. 

Humility and moderation are not virtues only for the weak minded and they are virtues for societies as well as individuals.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.