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Genocide

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    Posted: 01 May 2015 at 13:31
trailer of an Animated documentary movie about crimes against Polish Nation during II World War.

By Arkadiusz Olszewski

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9BaeyKKkMM&feature=youtu.be
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verova27 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2015 at 10:46
are there another sources in this topic? :)
http://profiles.tsu.ru/Page/1016
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2015 at 10:00
Genocide? The Jews were exterminated en masse (though a large number died in the Warsaw Ghetto and not death camps) . Further, the Polish armed forces were dealt with on the quiet by Soviet authorities, but Poland was not subjected to genocide as a whole.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M M Kubba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2016 at 11:30
WOW! Really Caldrail?
History really shows that many,many millions have perished from genocide.
So often I find the reference to the holocaust interjected and the obliteration of native Americans throughout the entire Western Hemisphere overlooked.
I also find irony that "we" are willing to claim the vainglorious title of liberators when we threw nuclear weapons into,not just military targets, but two large densely populated cities.
The children that died in school in Nagasaki that day. The older, perhaps sick or physically disabled in every hospital in Hiroshima
And on and on. Unavoidable collateral damage,regrettable civilian casualties or Genocide?
I apologize in advance. My intent is not to denounce or imply any flaws in your statement.
History does show us that Genocide almost always finds a way to rear it:s ugly head and like the Hydra, cut one head off and......
History can,hopefully, give us the knowledge to always seek ways to work harder at stopping it before it starts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2016 at 11:28
Many millions died in WW2, mostly from being involveda very large war. That's not genocide. genocide is a deliberate extermination which the Poles were not subject to. Indeed, Nor was the use of nuclear weapons at the end of WW2 a genocidal act - far from it. The points was to ...

1. Persuade the Japanese that surrender was a better option than fighting to the last man, woman, and child, especially since it meant saving American lives.
2. Persuade the Russians that America would not be trifled with during negotiations concerning post war affairs.
3. Finish the war before the Allies arrived to help America take Japan. Or take it instead of them, regarding the Russian agreement to invade Japan at the wars end.
4. Secure a significant victory for the new president, Harry Truman.

Can't find anything that suggests the Americans intended to wipe out the Japanese any more than the Third Reich or the Soviet Republic meant to exterminate poles from the face of the Earth. I agree that the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrifying but that's what happens when you're dealing with a fanatical military junta and want to bring an end to the fighting. Decisions like that are made in war and always have been. Remember that in ancient times, despite lacking nuclear weaponry, aggressors securing victory usually razed their enemies cities and carried the survivors off into slavery. One ruler of Assyria even boasted how he had made a desert of his enemies lands. That's how we play the game. Don't like the rules? Tough, bascially, because the weapons exost along with the will to use them if necessay. But then, as I recall, since 1945 no nuclear attacks have been made against an enemy faction.  So I guess the two bombs made a successful point after all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2016 at 07:47
There was a Greek General from Rhodes (Memnon?) who had a strategy for defeating Alexander of Macedon.  Alexander's army was living off the land at first in his invasion of Persia.  This general suggested scorched earth.  The Persian King, feeling a responsibility to his people, wouldn't hear of it.
In some ways, the Persians were more civilized than the Greeks.

I seem to remember that Emperor Hirohito surrendered over the radio.  If he hadn't done so in such a public way, Tojo and his generals probably would not have surrendered even after the nuclear bombs.

Japan did alright after WWII, they were intact as a nation since they only surrendered to US.  MacArthur, an emperor figure was going to break up the business conglomorates, but those were put back together again with China going red and the Korean War.  Japan's auto Industry got started with the making of Jeeps for Korea and Vietnam.  
Ironically, talking about destruction and devastation, the nuclear bombs were probably the least costly option for ending the war.  Curtis LeMay had a plan of continuous firebombing of Tokyo and other cities.  By continuous, I mean sortie after sortie, wave after wave if planes dropping incendiaries.  More people died in firebombing of Tokyo than died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and burning to death is probably the worst way to go. 
I heard somewhere that more Christians died in Nazi death camps, than Jews.  I don't know if it is true, but even if it was, I would not call the action to be genocide against the Christians because Christians were on both sides of the equation (so to speak).  I don't know how much the mere existence of gypsies was threatened.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2016 at 15:05
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I seem to remember that Emperor Hirohito surrendered over the radio.  If he hadn't done so in such a public way, Tojo and his generals probably would not have surrendered even after the nuclear bombs.

Not quite. The decision to surrender was made by the junta as a whole. What Hirohito said was that "we might have to accept the unacceptable" or something like that. The word "surrender" was never used, though clearly everyone understood that. Remember that Hirohito was not a ruling emperor in the western sense - he was merely a puppet - it was the junta that had ruled Japan since the thirties.

In fact, some Japanese did not accept surrender. There was, for a long time, occaisional veterans in some parts of SE Asia and the PAcific who carried on their duty as soldiers even if they didn't actualy fight (though some worked for communist regimes in a number of roles). The Japanese in one area continued after the war in the function of armed police. It wasn't possible for the British to replace them immediately and to ensure continuity of security and peace, the japanese garrisons were allowed to remain. A rather sadder end was the man who had organised the "Divine Wind" squadrons. Unable to bear the shame of having sent so many young men to their deaths (and achieving no good purpose), after the ceasefire was announced he called for volunteers for one last kamikaze mission which he would lead. There's a photo of him before take off. He's genuinely happy. The entire mission of around a hundred flyers took off to attack the US fleet off Okinawa and was never seen again.

Quote Japan did alright after WWII, they were intact as a nation since they only surrendered to US.

The same policy that the western allies applied to Germany. Rebuild the nation and incorporate them in the 'friendly' sphere of global politics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2016 at 01:24
Yes, but that was why he announced over the radio, made it a fiat accompli, he had very little secular power, but he was considered to be a god, or at least that is the image of him put together after the fact.  He was probably more involved in war crimes and profiteering (?) than is generally acknowledged, but his image was whitewashed after the war.  It was believed that the Japanese would not stand for an attack on the Emperor, although he has been made to admit that he is not a god.

I think that the junta did not want to surrender under any conditions, but the emperor's broadcast put them on the spot, they had been invoking so many things in his name, what else could they do?  Of course, if the Emperor had talked it over before with the junta, who were going to be sentenced to death, anyways, who knows what kind of accident might happen?

That's my understanding of the situation, but it has been awhile since I looked it up.

Germany was split by WWII, and some territories are still in Poland or the Soviet Union.  Austria was likewise divided into four sectors, but was able to reunite as long as she was neutral in the cold war.  USSR did a landgrab at the end of WWII, invading Manchuria, Korea, and a few remote islands, but Japan in general with the main islands, stayed intact (Honshu, Kyushu, Shikoku, Hokaido).  The current Japanese PM Shinzo Abe is planning to do a peace treaty with Russia (they haven't had one since the end
of WW II.), since Abe finally recognized and did a settlement with Korean "comfort girls," maybe this other hold over from WWII (peace treaty with Russia) shows that Japan is starting to come to terms with its past.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2016 at 10:22
Hirohito did not unilaterally make the broadcast. The decision was made by committee decision (as all japanese decisions usually are you'll find - they never make snap decisions - everything must be discussed and resolved). Further, although Hirohito was considered divine in status, that did not make him a living god in the western sense, which evolves from Roman ideas in which divinity and mortal status are basically two ends of the same range, so that a powerful man assumes more divinity than a worthless slave (and in a few cases, associations with religious deities was assumed in an excess of ego). To the Japanese, divinity in human beings was a sense of specialness, of fate, of privilege, but not of all consuming power, of which Hirohito had none. He was after all only surviving as the top japanese VIP because he did nothing. The junta would have gotten rid of him the moment he started acting on his behalf in that matter.

The Japanese Islands did not remain intact. Russia retained the northern end and still holds it today. As for coming to terms with its past - no, they haven't. It's a matter of shame, which is a whole level of magnitude more important to japanese culture than in the west. Please note that the apology is being made now that so few victims and perpetrators are still alive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2016 at 06:10
A few frontier islands were lost to Russia, and some dirty coal.  I cannot imagine that the displaced persons from these islands (Sakhalin,etc) was even a drop in the bucket compared to those coming back from Korea.  It probably had a bigger impact in the Inu community which are indigenous to Hokaido and other Northern Islands.  In a highly centralized society which really emphasizes the urban areas, the loss of the northern frontier islands probably hurt Japanese pride, but other than that (and again the loss of some poor quality coal), the northern frontier islands are probably from a cultural perspective, not missed very much.  I don't think "shame" explains it very well, or at least it doesn't explain it to me and I studied Japanese language and culture for a couple of years in college.  But, yes, shame and/or guilt plays a huge role in Japanese life.  My recollection about Hirohito's broadcast is not the same as yours, but I recognize that probably been over 25 years since I studied it.  When I get a chance, I'll look it up.  It is pretty clear that Hirohito was much more involved in the atrocities than is usually recognized.  In propaganda during the War, the United States was careful not to criticize the Emperor, and when the US occupation begins, Hirohito's reputation is further whitewashed.  JG Ballard's comments on Hirohito are interesting, Ballard as child lived through a Japanese concentration camp in China.  His reaction is visceral, something not from reading a book, but having lived it.  (Empire of the Sun).
The Japanese where vicious in WWII, even to their own people, but I would not consider it "genocide," the topic of this thread.  In POW camps, the guards brutality and disease and famine killed off one in four POWs, but that is quite different from the mechanized systems of slaughter that the Germans had for "undesirables."  The German death camps may have slaughter millions, but ironically POWs had a much better survival rate in Germany than they did in the Japanese "East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere."  The death rate in the European theatre Axis POW camps is more like one in ten.  The Japanese were vicious, but the Germans were more of a cold hate with a twisted logic believing that they were improving the world, or at least their corner of the world, creating Lebensraum for the German race.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2016 at 09:53
Hirohito wasn't involved at all. The man was a figurehead. A puppet ruler. He kept quiet and kept his job.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2016 at 04:54
Franciscoan:

Caldrail is correct, Emperor Hirohito had no say in what was happening on the war front.

The Japanese culture at the time of WW2 was still one of little regard for human life, especially the enemy and those who surrendered. The prison camp deaths caused by the Japanese were due to a simple lack of caring whether the prisoners lived or died.

On the other hand, Germanys intention was, apart from ruling the world, the total eradication of the Jewish people (genocide) as well as blacks and others they deemed racially inferior.

There's a difference between the two.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ALLAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2016 at 00:16
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Genocide? The Jews were exterminated en masse (though a large number died in the Warsaw Ghetto and not death camps) . Further, the Polish armed forces were dealt with on the quiet by Soviet authorities, but Poland was not subjected to genocide as a whole.

Took a look at a list of noted genocides. There are two recognised occurrences. One in 1937 where the Soviets killed between 110,000 & 250,000. The second in 1943, known as the Volhynia massacre Ukrainian forces were instrumental in cleansing between 60,000 & 200,000.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2016 at 00:54
I once heard on TV a Jewish speaker talking to an evangelical audience, say that more Christians died in the Holocaust than Jews.  Whether that is accurate or not, I think it makes an interesting point, the genocide is not in the numbers, for there were more numbers of Christians, and there were Christians on both sides (morally obtuse Christians on one side, but still Christian.) but in the fact that a whole way of life was destroyed.  I have heard that Stalin wanted to continue the destruction of the Jews, but never got around to it, before he died.  This was an aside by Horowitz, who is a conservative columnist (and Jewish), who converted from being a staunch communist growing up, and in the 1950-70s.

I have not yet finished reading about Hirohito on Wikipedia, but what I've read hardly makes him look like a helpless bystander.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ALLAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2016 at 01:28
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I once heard on TV a Jewish speaker talking to an evangelical audience, say that more Christians died in the Holocaust than Jews.  Whether that is accurate or not, I think it makes an interesting point, the genocide is not in the numbers, for there were more numbers of Christians, and there were Christians on both sides (morally obtuse Christians on one side, but still Christian.) but in the fact that a whole way of life was destroyed.  I have heard that Stalin wanted to continue the destruction of the Jews, but never got around to it, before he died.  This was an aside by Horowitz, who is a conservative columnist (and Jewish), who converted from being a staunch communist growing up, and in the 1950-70s.

I have not yet finished reading about Hirohito on Wikipedia, but what I've read hardly makes him look like a helpless bystander.

Doubt there were more Christians murdered than Jews in the Holocaust. The term "the Holocaust" in these terms is specific to the final solution planned to be carried out against one people. So every single one of those murdered in regard to the final solution is Jewish.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2016 at 05:09
You may be correct Allan, perhaps no Christians were killed _in_ the holocaust, they were in the huts next door, being killed _during_ the holocaust, which of course had nothing to do with them, just as the gypsies, the homosexuals and the communists had nothing to do with the holocaust, but were also, metaphorically, right next door to the Jews.   Being killed off as undesirables as well.

Thing is, if you were Jewish, you were probably doomed if you didn't get out of Europe (or to Spain, or to Switzerland, Denmark did right by its Jews), if you were a Christian however, you would have had to do something undesirable to get in the camps.  I imagine that the number one thing you could do, is resist the Nazis, or just be a member of a community that resisted the nazis.  Were the Christians in the camps martyrs?  I ask the question hoping someone might know about the subject better than I do, and give me some light (not heat) on the subject.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2016 at 15:53
The numbers of christians killed had more to do with ordinary war casualties than deliberate killing like the Holocaust. Many Jews continued to live in Europe under Nazi rule but clearly kept themselves under a low key. Of these many would later be reported and attempt to escape.

Quote Took a look at a list of noted genocides. There are two recognised occurrences. One in 1937 where the Soviets killed between 110,000 & 250,000. The second in 1943, known as the Volhynia massacre Ukrainian forces were instrumental in cleansing between 60,000 & 200,000.

I would point out that the Ukranian ethi=nic cleansing of polish was restricted to the area of territorial concern, in that the future territorial aquisition was the motive behind removing the inhabitants. I don't condone the killing of course, but as I said, genocide against Poland en masse was not the case.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 00:54
If you look at the Holocaust on wikipedia, on the topic of others persecuted besides the Jews, you will read that the Nazis considered the slavs "untermenschen" (less than human) and planned to kill them off in order to get "Lebensraum" for the Germans.  They decided that doing the same thing to the Poles that was done to the Jews, would alarm neighboring nations, so their approach to getting rid of the Poles was more one of attrition.  It sounds like the long term plans of the Nazis would have done away with the Slavs, fortunately, those plans never completely came into effect.

Christians are not mentioned, except Jehovah's Witnesses, who were pacificist and wouldn't swear loyalty to the German state.  I assume that there were some Christian protesters, but they were probably classified as something else.  Probably didn't do much other than die, if the Weisse Rose group (Catholic) is any indication. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2016 at 15:44
I'm well aware of Nazi plans regarding the Slavs. However, the issue of mass slaughter is not so easily realised. The Final Solution came about because the sheer numbers of Jews to be exterminated outstripped the normal means of execution.

Regarding christianity - As usually happens, the Third Reich merely informed the public that God was with them. However, the Third Reich was not christian - in fact, a covert pagan religion was being set up within the SS based on idelaism of ancient cults. That didn't really matter - officially the USSR was aetheist even though the war had forced the autjhorities to reopen the chrches and maintain public morale.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2016 at 00:10
There were what were called "Deutsche Christian" which had the swastika banner up front in the chapel.  Hitler promised state supported religion, and that sounded good to some Christians, little did they know that they were taking a snake to their bosom. 
The problem with religion getting into politics, is that politics also gets into religion, at the same time.  One reason the US has such a vibrant religious identity is because of separation of Church and State.  With state religion, one size fits none, separation allows for a plurality, and a variety of belief.  If you don't like your church just go down the street and find another.  I think of it in an evolutionary model, different churches (and not just limited to churches), working to fill each little 'theological' niche.

Yes, you may have been aware of the Slavs, but I wasn't clear on it, and we are also, hopefully, doing these threads for the benefit of others as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2016 at 18:05
I have to agree with franciscosan here what makes WWII and other ideological wars following WWI such as the Russian Revolution different is that their goals were not just to gain an National economic advantage but they involved the cultural annihilation of the opposing culture or ethnicity.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2016 at 16:52
I'm a firm believer that the major wars of the last century were all part of an ideological struggle that the democratic west won (at least it didn't lose, anyhow...). Sadly however the end of that struggle has left a power vacuum and now radical islam has dipped its feet into the water with it's zealous nastiness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tracy18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 2017 at 13:01
Jewish genocide during World War 2 is one of the biggest tragedies to have occurred on the face of earth.

Edited by Moderator 


Edited by toyomotor - 20 Apr 2017 at 02:52
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