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Germany refuses to hand back Nefertiti to Egypt

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    Posted: 10 Jul 2010 at 12:55
Egypt demands that Germany will return a bust of queen Nefertiti which was unlawfully tricked out of the country in the early 20th century:

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Nefertiti bust to stay in Germany
The tension between the Egyptian Supreme Council for Antiquities and Germany continued last week after the German State Secretary for Cultural Affairs Bernd Neumann confirmed Germany’s refusal to respond to Egypt’s demands for the restoration of the bust of the ancient Egyptian Queen Nefertiti. Egypt had been demanding the return of the statue as part of SCA Secretary-General Zahi Hawass’s efforts to have all Egyptian artifacts returned home, including the Nefertiti statue and the Rosetta Stone in London.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2010 at 15:36
This is interesting. The Brits get the blame for most of the stolen artifacts of this world (Think of the marble pillars from Athens) Its nice to know we can share the blame around.

We're still waiting on the various church artifacts you stole in the early middle ages, by the way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2010 at 16:33
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

This is interesting. The Brits get the blame for most of the stolen artifacts of this world (Think of the marble pillars from Athens) Its nice to know we can share the blame around.

We're still waiting on the various church artifacts you stole in the early middle ages, by the way.

Can you point out in which Swedish museums those artifacts are stored or displayed? And also do not forget to look in Norway and Denmark too.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2010 at 16:37

More about Nefertiti:

Quote Egypt will demand the return of the bust of the Egyptian queen Nefertiti which is now in Berlin. The archeologist that found it tricked the authorities when he brough it out of the country. 

It was Ludwig Borchardt that found the bust 1912. The 3400 year old statue was described as a bust of a princess. But in reality it depicts the queen of Egypt, Nefertiti. Nu have notes in Ludwig Borchardts diary revealed that he knew the real identity of the person depicted in the bust.

The material confirms the claim by Egypt that Borchardt acted unethical with the intention to mislead. Borchhardt knes, which is shown by his diary, that it was the queen heself, he also knew that the bust was made of limestone, covered by plaster and painted, not only of plaster, one can read in a statement from Egyptian authorities. Egypt will submit a formal request that the bust will be returned.

Germanys minister of culture, Bernd Neumann, has claimed that Egypt do not have any reason to demand the return of the bust. Germany also refused to lend the statue to Egypt in 2007, claiming that it was to brittle.

Translated from Swedish

http://www.svd.se/kulturnoje/nyheter/egypten-kraver-tillbaka-statyn-av-nefertiti_3982447.svd


Also here you can read about this:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a0fnkHvZF6Ns





Edited by Carcharodon - 10 Jul 2010 at 16:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2010 at 22:55
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

This is interesting. The Brits get the blame for most of the stolen artifacts of this world (Think of the marble pillars from Athens) Its nice to know we can share the blame around.

We're still waiting on the various church artifacts you stole in the early middle ages, by the way.

Can you point out in which Swedish museums those artifacts are stored or displayed? And also do not forget to look in Norway and Denmark too.
 
Why Carch, have you so soon forgotten my riposte over the Paracas textiles housed in Goteborg (Gothenburg) at its Museum of World Culture?  These  2000 year old weavingas were clearly stolen from Peru and ended up there in the 1930s. Since December 2009 the Peruvian government has insisted upon their return. By the way in a twist of irony, this very museum named its last exhibition that year "En stulen varld" (A Stolen World)!
 
PS: If you need evidence of the purloining...consult the Swedish media that you so often quote:
 
or check this intersting blog:
 
 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 10 Jul 2010 at 23:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2010 at 00:24
Yes I know about the case of the Paracas textiles. I have seen them many times and I also know people in the museum where they are housed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2010 at 00:33
Also Sweden has been hit by this kind of theft, but more recently. In 1999 a Spaniard stole an 800 year old shrine from Ullangers church in Sweden and managed to smuggle it out of the country and sell it. After a while it was bought by a Spanish museum (in Madrid). Now when Sweden demands the shrine back the museum refuses with the argument that they did not know it was stolen when they bought it. This is a state owned Spanish museum who refuses to even give back recently stolen objects.

It can be mentioned that the Swedes have declared the shrine as the clenod of the year in 2009. maybe it can raise more activity to get the shrine back. Maybe it is something for the King to mention when he talks to his colleague and relative Juan Carlos.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2010 at 03:05
Why Carch you of all people hankering for a reliquary--you know an ossuary for the remains of a Christian saint--one would think that your natural reaction to such, given your reiterated tirades against Christianity, would be good riddance to bad rubbish. But then, you are leaving out a good part of the story. Here is how The Local reports it:
 
So far, however, attempts to get the reliquary returned have moved slowly. Isaksson says that the Swedish National Heritage Board has written four times to the Ministry of Culture in Madrid. The Local spoke to a senior official at the Madrid museum, who said she had only heard that the museum was housing the stolen reliquary when contacted by a Swedish journalist last week.  "We have not heard anything official from the Ministry of Culture," she said. "We're not even completely sure which piece is being referred to, although we have an idea." The Local has contacted the Spanish Ministry of Culture, but the person responsible for the question of the reliquary was away. Attempts to contact the relevant person at the Swedish National Heritage Board were also fruitless.
 
 
Could this be little more than the proletarianization of Swedish National Romanticism? Here is some reading matter you might find interesting:
 

The silver age of Swedish national romanticism, 1905-1920.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+silver+age+of+Swedish+national+romanticism%2c+1905-1920.-a097298263

Now what does all of this have to do with the bust of Nefertiti? Well, apparently, the Berlin museum has adopted the identical tactic of its colleagues at the Goteborg institution: the object in question is too fragile to be moved!
 
 
 
Welcome to the world of High Antiquarianism, folks.


Edited by drgonzaga - 11 Jul 2010 at 03:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2010 at 09:51
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 Why Carch you of all people hankering for a reliquary--you know an ossuary for the remains of a Christian saint--one would think that your natural reaction to such, given your reiterated tirades against Christianity, would be good riddance to bad rubbish.  

You can see the shrine as a part of a material cultural heritage without sharing the religious ideology of those people who made it. I think its the same in many places. For instance most of those Egyptians that admire and want to protect cultural relicts from the time of the Pharaohs hardly share the religious beliefs or ideology of that time.

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 Now what does all of this have to do with the bust of Nefertiti? Well, apparently, the Berlin museum has adopted the identical tactic of its colleagues at the Goteborg institution: the object in question is too fragile to be moved!
-- 
Welcome to the world of High Antiquarianism, folks.

Yes, these types of arguments are rather common when discussing the issue of returning cultural relics to the countries they once came from.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2010 at 16:23
Here we go again, Carch wrote:
 
You can see the shrine as a part of a material cultural heritage without sharing the religious ideology of those people who made it. I think its the same in many places. For instance most of those Egyptians that admire and want to protect cultural relics from the time of the Pharaohs hardly share the religious beliefs or ideology of that time.
 
To be honest, most Egyptians do not give a rat's ass over the "material culture heritage" of the distant past [other than the possibility of profit from tomb raiding and artifact peddling] and those that seek media attention such as good old Hawas posture just as much from local politics and prejudices than true concern. Can Egyptians or anyone else for that matter protect cultural "relics" better than anyone else? We all know how much respect for their cultural heritage the Iraqis displayed within the immediate past. How much poorer would cultural understanding and commonality be were all the museums on the surface of the planet to pack up their baubles and ship them back to the "localities of origin". From my end, this bit of flummery is but another example of sensibility seeking to trump good sense!
 
Check given to another example of inverted legalisms placed upon the altar of PC palaver. What next, the return of the Kohinoor diamond to India? After all, it was a part of the Moghul Peacock Throne plundered by Nader Shah in 1738 and subsequently purloined by the British in the upheaval that followed his assassination in 1747. That the transport vessel sank is another matter entirely but the East India Company did a "salvage" of the jewels--too bad for the wood!
 
The question of title and origins surfaced in recent times as a means through which to frustrate contemporary plunderings for the sake of the current "art markets" by the unscrupulous. That some would like to make hay from the immediate so as to satisfy their contemporary political posturings is another matter entirely. The question of provenance within legal constructs is far more complicated than you would have it, and I doubt, Carch, that you do have an understanding of due process in that regard.
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 12 Jul 2010 at 22:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2010 at 17:39
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

This is interesting. The Brits get the blame for most of the stolen artifacts of this world (Think of the marble pillars from Athens) Its nice to know we can share the blame around.

We're still waiting on the various church artifacts you stole in the early middle ages, by the way.


French as well have been blamed, but they recently returned many Egyptian artifacts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2010 at 17:53

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 To be honest, most Egyptians do not give a rat's ass over the "material culture heritage" of the distant past [other than the possibility of profit from tomb raiding and artifact peddling] and those that seek media attention such as good old Hawas posture just as much from local politics and prejudices than true concern.

 

Well, I talked about those Egyptians that do care about their cultural relicts, and the fact that it not make them into worshippers of the Ancient Gods.

 

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

  Can Egyptians or anyone else for that matter protect cultural "relics" better than anyone else? We all know how much respect for their cultural heritage the Iraqis displayed within the immediate past. How much poorer would cultural understanding and commonality be were all the museums on the surface of the planet to pack up their baubles and ship them back to the "localities of origin". From my end, this bit of flummery is but another example of sensibilityseeking to trump good sense!

 

Check given to another example of inverted legalisms placed upon the altar of PC palaver. What next, the return of the Kohinoor diamond to India? After all, it was a part of the Moghul Peacock Throne plundered by Nader Shah in 1738 and subsequently purloined by the British in the upheaval that followed his assassination in 1747. That the transport vessel sank is another matter entirely but the Rast India Company did a "salvage" of the jewels--too bad for the wood!

 

The question of title and origins surfaced in recent times as a means through which to frustrate contemporary plunderings for the sake of the current "art markets" by the unscrupulous. That some would like to make hay from the immediate so as to satisfy their contemporary political posturings is another matter entirely. The question of provenance within legal constructs is far more complicated than you would have it, and I doubt, Carch, that you do have an understanding of due process in that regard.

 

It seems that you like to indulge yourself in long, incoherent ramblings but I can just say that  since I have worked with matters concerning cultural heritage I happen to have at least some insight into such issues.

 



Edited by Carcharodon - 11 Jul 2010 at 17:56
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Edited by drgonzaga - 11 Jul 2010 at 20:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2010 at 06:26
It shall be interesting to see what new laws, agreements and other things that will arise concerning this issue. More and more countries seem to claim back their relics. Also several groups are claiming back bones of their ancestors from museums in many countries.

As for Sweden, we have recently returned bones to native Hawaiians and Australian aborigines. We have also returned a totem pole to Native Americans in Kanada.

Also in Sweden, Norway and Denmark there are discussions with the Sami people about returning human remnants to them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2010 at 12:23
There is no such thing as unlawfully tricking someone if you get away with it. And there is no reason to return anything to anyone under any circumstance unless the negative consequences of not doing so outweigh the positive.
 
In the words of my mentors: "All, all is theft, all is unceasing and rigorous competition in nature; the desire to make off with the substance of others is the foremost - the most legitimate - passion nature has bred into us and, without doubt, the most agreeable one" and "a wise ruler ought never to keep faith when by doing so it would be against his interests."
 
Museum collections such as the British Museum and the Louvre are not only practical for tourists - seeing as they gather many in one spot rather than spread them all over - they are also a major source of income. Furthermore, when most of these items were taken their "owners" had no concept of antiquarian value, this is something they were given by Europeans along with so many other things, and to now ask for returns is not only hypocritial but downright ungrateful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2010 at 12:41
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

There is no such thing as unlawfully tricking someone if you get away with it. And there is no reason to return anything to anyone under any circumstance unless the negative consequences of not doing so outweigh the positive.
 
In the words of my mentors: "All, all is theft, all is unceasing and rigorous competition in nature; the desire to make off with the substance of others is the foremost - the most legitimate - passion nature has bred into us and, without doubt, the most agreeable one" and "a wise ruler ought never to keep faith when by doing so it would be against his interests."
 
Museum collections such as the British Museum and the Louvre are not only practical for tourists - seeing as they gather many in one spot rather than spread them all over - they are also a major source of income. 

At the same time the demands from various countires and different groups to return cultural relics seem to increase. So perhaps the demands are on their way to be a more and more important part of relations between countries. To return these kind of objects can perhaps in some cases give so much goodwill and secondary effects that it is worth the loss.

Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

 Furthermore, when most of these items were taken their "owners" had no concept of antiquarian value, this is something they were given by Europeans along with so many other things, and to now ask for returns is not only hypocritial but downright ungrateful.

That can vary. For example in China there were several objects that indeed were regarded as valuable cultural relics already when they were taken.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2010 at 12:55
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

At the same time the demands from various countires and different groups to return cultural relics seem to increase. So perhaps the demands are on their way to be a more and more important part of relations between countries. To return these kind of objects can perhaps in some cases give so much goodwill and secondary effects that it is worth the loss.
 
Well it's not impossible. It would have be carefully considered in each individual case.
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

That can vary. For example in China there were several objects that indeed were regarded as valuable cultural relics already when they were taken.
 
I'm aware my statement was too sweeping to possibly be entirely correct. Still, it changes little. The real deciding factor will be whether China has enough leverage to force them back and if they are willing to risk more pragmatic concerns for historical artefacts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2010 at 12:59
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

 
I'm aware my statement was too sweeping to possibly be entirely correct. Still, it changes little. The real deciding factor will be whether China has enough leverage to force them back and if they are willing to risk more pragmatic concerns for historical artefacts.

China is getting more and more visible and influential in the international field. Perhaps giving back some of their cultural relics is a good way to show good intentions and friendship. That can give an edge when it concerns cultural, political or economic contacts.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2010 at 13:03

Perhaps. I would never argue against making full use of the cards on your hand.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote soumyan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2010 at 14:52
"The Leiden Grants" as it was called; originally refers to the King Raja Raja I of Thanjavur, Tamilnadu
who have granted lands for building a Buddhist monastery near Anaimangalam in tamilnadu around
1000 A.D.  This is a valuable record written in Tamil Manuscript which has more than thousand years
old. Holland should think over to return the same.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2010 at 15:09
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Why Carch, have you so soon forgotten my riposte over the Paracas textiles housed in Goteborg (Gothenburg) at its Museum of World Culture?  These  2000 year old weavingas were clearly stolen from Peru and ended up there in the 1930s. Since December 2009 the Peruvian government has insisted upon their return. By the way in a twist of irony, this very museum named its last exhibition that year "En stulen varld" (A Stolen World)!
 
 
 

There's no irony in the name as it was intended to highlight the problems with stolen museal artifacts.
The textiles are to be returned, by the way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2010 at 15:57
Sorry, Styrborn, but the ironic was not in the intentional naming of the exhibit, but in the response made by the museum raising the "too delicate to move" cavil as an official response to a formal request for the return of items clearly on display as the product of theft. The problem here is the agiprop seeking to employ specific contemporary international accords directed against illicit activities endangering the cultural heritage of the world by today's "art" markets as tools for retroactive "collection" purposes and to do so by violating almost all the tenets of legal estoppel and due process. After all, where the difference between the antics of Hawas and those of the Greek Ministry of Culture back in 1999 over the Louvre's Nike of Samothrace? Should I mention "Priam's Hoard"?
 
PS: And the "news" of the return of the Paracas material is a bit premature, Styr, as no official pronouncement has yet to reach circulation...
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 13 Jul 2010 at 16:04
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