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Gets my blood boiling

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    Posted: 20 Jun 2014 at 20:27
How can we prevent these dark age rituals to happen in a modern world?
I've heard about a few cases, but this is massive - apparently it happens to the majority of girls coming to Scandinavia as refuges from certain countries ....


Translated article:

All 30 girls in a Swedish school class was circumcised

The authorities in the Swedish town of Norrköping has discovered more than 60 cases of genital mutilation of young girls since March.

The authorities in the Swedish town of Norrköping has discovered more than 60 cases of genital mutilation of young girls since March.
In one classroom, all the 30 girls circumcised. The newspaper said Norrköbing Gazette.
28 of the girls had been exposed to the most violent action where both the clitoris and labia are cut away, and the abdomen stitched except for a small opening.
Girl rushed to hospital
- A girl had such strong period pain that she was sent from the school by ambulance to a women's clinic, says Petra Blom Andersson from the Swedish SSP cooperation Elevhälsan in Norrköbing.
The circumcised women experience symptoms such as migraine and menstrual pain. Many people seem to be to take fluids in school, so they do not have to pee, because it is very painful.
Many girls are circumcised when they go on holiday in their parents' home countries.
- We try to warn parents that they could face jail when they come back with a daughter who is circumcised, she tells Norrköbing Gazette.
Imprisonment for circumcision
The operation has since 1982 been banned in Sweden and is punishable by up to 10 years in prison in serious cases.
Since 1999 it has also been illegal to have girls residing in Sweden circumcised outside the country.
No one knows with certainty the extent of circumcision in Sweden, but Norrköbing has been selected to pilot municipality in a regional effort to stop circumcision and help the girls who are suffering because of the intervention.


   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2014 at 20:44
I see that as wacks and religious fanatics, among others, certainly Islamic, as remaining responsible.

'' from certain countries ...''

Name the countries...you'll find the answer. Then offer specific condemnation to those countries and the religious wacks-groups and male supremacists who practice it.

Generalizations are insufficient.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2014 at 21:04
In America males get circumcised.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eetion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2014 at 21:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2014 at 21:53
Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:

I see that as wacks and religious fanatics, among others, certainly Islamic, as remaining responsible.

'' from certain countries ...''

Name the countries...you'll find the answer. Then offer specific condemnation to those countries and the religious wacks-groups and male supremacists who practice it.

Generalizations are insufficient.

I think this is a tribal issue more than a religious one. It's of the same nature as "Honor Killing"
If it was religious it would be more wide spread in the Islamic countries in the ME, Northern Africa etc.

Look at this map:





Edited by Northman - 20 Jun 2014 at 21:55
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2014 at 21:56
You beat me to it Eetion  Smile


   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2014 at 22:02
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

In America males get circumcised.

Yes and many more places - likewise a very bad idea from ancient times, but much less mutilating compared to what is done to the girls.


   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 00:58
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

In America males get circumcised.

This is in no way the same as the practice inflicted on girls in the third world, which is no less than medieval mutilation, done  for the sake of immature and dysfunctional male notions.

If you think it is the same, take a look at your own organ in equivalent question some time, and imagine it cut about two thirds to three quarters of its length, and done so in unsterile and primitive fashion, with your screams disregarded by friends, family, and community, and the accuracy of the cut distorted by your writhing motions.

Sound OK to you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 02:34
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

In America males get circumcised.
 
So what. Males all over the world are circumcised, usually shortly after birth. Many people believe that it has health advantages.
 
But what we're talking about here is not a health measure, it's a brutal way of ensuring that the female gender derives no pleasure from sexual intercourse, nothing more. Male dominance of the medieval type.
 
We can probably guess the religeous leanings of the poor girls and their torturers, but it's a practice that needs to be stamped out-permanently. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 04:51
From what i understand, the rationale behind males being circumcised in North America rather than based on ancient myths or religious practices, is that it is allowed to be done to prevent sexual diseases, hygienic  health or medical reasons, based on individual cases of choice and not mandatory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 06:47
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

From what i understand, the rationale behind males being circumcised in North America rather than based on ancient myths or religious practices, is that it is allowed to be done to prevent sexual diseases, hygienic  health or medical reasons, based on individual cases of choice and not mandatory.

 
Yep, same in Oz.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 10:16
Why do I get the impression that it is an issue of mentality and lifestyle choice?  The girls' mutilations were shocking because it was done all at the same time when they went on holiday.  It's a ritualistic mutilation while the males in America had their mutilation done before their first birthday celebration.  The only disturbing thing about the mutilation is that the females remember it and have to deal with physical problems while healing.  The males don't remember a thing but still have to deal with the shame of circumcision.  After all it was a procedure done without the consent of the infant child.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 01:26
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Why do I get the impression that it is an issue of mentality and lifestyle choice?  The girls' mutilations were shocking because it was done all at the same time when they went on holiday.  It's a ritualistic mutilation while the males in America had their mutilation done before their first birthday celebration.  The only disturbing thing about the mutilation is that the females remember it and have to deal with physical problems while healing.  The males don't remember a thing but still have to deal with the shame of circumcision.  After all it was a procedure done without the consent of the infant child.

My guess is that you get that impression from a surprisingly modest understanding of human anatomy, of human sexuality, and of general life experience.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 02:56
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Why do I get the impression that it is an issue of mentality and lifestyle choice?  The girls' mutilations were shocking because it was done all at the same time when they went on holiday.  It's a ritualistic mutilation while the males in America had their mutilation done before their first birthday celebration.  The only disturbing thing about the mutilation is that the females remember it and have to deal with physical problems while healing.  The males don't remember a thing but still have to deal with the shame of circumcision.  After all it was a procedure done without the consent of the infant child.

My guess is that you get that impression from a surprisingly modest understanding of human anatomy, of human sexuality, and of general life experience.
 
Spot on Captain.Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 07:07
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Why do I get the impression that it is an issue of mentality and lifestyle choice?  The girls' mutilations were shocking because it was done all at the same time when they went on holiday.  It's a ritualistic mutilation while the males in America had their mutilation done before their first birthday celebration.  The only disturbing thing about the mutilation is that the females remember it and have to deal with physical problems while healing.  The males don't remember a thing but still have to deal with the shame of circumcision.  After all it was a procedure done without the consent of the infant child.

CV said it very eloquently, so allow me to be a little more blunt...
You get that impression because you are commenting on issues that you obviously have no clue about. 
You need to educate yourself - just one search on Google will give you all the info you need. - use this search:  Female genital mutilation


   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 07:29
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Why do I get the impression that it is an issue of mentality and lifestyle choice?  The girls' mutilations were shocking because it was done all at the same time when they went on holiday.  It's a ritualistic mutilation while the males in America had their mutilation done before their first birthday celebration.  The only disturbing thing about the mutilation is that the females remember it and have to deal with physical problems while healing.  The males don't remember a thing but still have to deal with the shame of circumcision.  After all it was a procedure done without the consent of the infant child.

CV said it very eloquently, so allow me to be a little more blunt...
You get that impression because you are commenting on issues that you obviously have no clue about. 
You need to educate yourself - just one search on Google will give you all the info you need. - use this search:  Female genital mutilation

 
 
Welcome to my world.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 07:43
Literary Clarity wrote:  in part
Quote Why do I get the impression that it is an issue of mentality and lifestyle choice?
 
Do you really think that the girls concerned made a free and informed choice in this matter?
 
Do you think that not only the girls referred to in this thread, but all of the girls or young women who have suffered this procedure around the world would have had the procedure had they known the alternative?
 
The mentality issue is a male domination one which belongs in the archives of history, not on the pages of todays paper.
 
I suggest that LC gets circumcised in some back alley dive, without the benefit of pain killers or anaesthetic, and thereby get some real experience of why we're outraged.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2014 at 15:57
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:



Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:

I see that as wacks and religious fanatics, among others, certainly Islamic, as remaining responsible.

'' from certain countries ...''

Name the countries...you'll find the answer. Then offer specific condemnation to those countries and the religious wacks-groups and male supremacists who practice it.

Generalizations are insufficient.


I think this is a tribal issue more than a religious one. It's of the same nature as "Honor Killing"
If it was religious it would be more wide spread in the Islamic countries in the ME, Northern Africa etc.

Look at this map:






Don't dispute any of the tribalism point here Northman....my caveat is that a strict interpretation used by fanatic islamist's, anywhere, is typical of the remaining tribalist mentality and historical traditons they not only remain firmly adherents of....but wish to promulgate. Female circ elsewhere, or in classically designated Islamist nations, is as classic an example; as is circs in Africa by their versions of islamists fanatics. Or honor killings by the same.

My other caveat was answered with the map. Look and see the culprits. Let your outrage not be muffled by not identifying them directly and pointedly.

As for whether it's a religious issue....of course it is. For the fanatic ties his historical tribalism and social conditioning to the bedrock of his religious traditions and dogma. Don't let yourself be deluded into thinking other.

Avoid PCness when identifying the evil of this and other fanatic practices.

Edited by Arlington - 27 Jun 2014 at 16:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 17:22
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Why do I get the impression that it is an issue of mentality and lifestyle choice?  The girls' mutilations were shocking because it was done all at the same time when they went on holiday.  It's a ritualistic mutilation while the males in America had their mutilation done before their first birthday celebration.  The only disturbing thing about the mutilation is that the females remember it and have to deal with physical problems while healing.  The males don't remember a thing but still have to deal with the shame of circumcision.  After all it was a procedure done without the consent of the infant child.

My guess is that you get that impression from a surprisingly modest understanding of human anatomy, of human sexuality, and of general life experience.


That's a poor analysis of anyone who just happens to disagree in this case.  Notice the thread title "Gets my blood boiling" shows the kind of non mediated mentality which you've just described and surely projected.  It would get "blood boiling" when you are looking at the perspective of American families whose soldier's lives have been sacrificed in the wars of Afghanistan and Iraq.  But actually to understand the kind of subjective reality behind the world's countless cultures and what they offer when you subscribe to them is yet another thing.  It requires more than just expressing uninhibited responses of hatred and intolerance for something that doesn't seem quite right.  You don't hear people declaring blood boiling war on the United States simply because its highest patrons all decide to circumsize their infant sons do you?  Do you?
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 17:30
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Literary Clarity wrote:  in part
Quote Why do I get the impression that it is an issue of mentality and lifestyle choice?
 
Do you really think that the girls concerned made a free and informed choice in this matter?
 
Do you think that not only the girls referred to in this thread, but all of the girls or young women who have suffered this procedure around the world would have had the procedure had they known the alternative?
 
The mentality issue is a male domination one which belongs in the archives of history, not on the pages of todays paper.
 
I suggest that LC gets circumcised in some back alley dive, without the benefit of pain killers or anaesthetic, and thereby get some real experience of why we're outraged.
 
 
 


That sounds like you are trying to say anyone's infant or child son in the United States, who underwent a similar procedure, and obviously without proper consent, was placed under routine care of pain killers or anaesthetic to reduce the excruciating pain of having lascerated genetalia.   Maybe you need to consult some of the American members here for what they experienced.
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/09/fewer-boys-are-being-circumcised/245292/



Edited by literaryClarity - 30 Jun 2014 at 17:43
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 18:46
I don't think you LC know what a girls genitals look like - and much less what is done to them during Female Genitals Mutilation.
You keep talking about boys - soldiers and what else not - just to sidetrack.

We have encouraged you to educate yourself, but apparently you chose not to do so. - why?



   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 18:52
I don't think you even know what female gentalia feels like much less what they actually are because you care too much for how they look.  I'm just stating the obvious due to your continuous flamed responses about how people need to be "educated" when you obviously lack that which exudes intelligence or experience.



Edited by literaryClarity - 30 Jun 2014 at 18:56
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 19:10
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I don't think you LC know what a girls genitals look like - and much less what is done to them during Female Genitals Mutilation.
You keep talking about boys - soldiers and what else not - just to sidetrack.

We have encouraged you to educate yourself, but apparently you chose not to do so. - why?






He didn't ask (Northman) but I will relate. Basically previous to the 1980's no additional, to a very few, procedures were used to ease pain of male infant circ in this case male. /subsequently based on peer review studies it has almost become a matter of routine in the US.

See: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/494502_2

Anumber of medical friends to include a personal friend (MD); first cousin (RN) and former gf (RNPA) confirm this.

I was circed at age 8 days. Hence I have no personal recollection. My child male was circed at 12 days. I was there for the procedure and though he obviously did not enjoy it neither did he understand it either.

The Doctor in his case applied ice to the region minutes before the procedure and it was accomplished in about four minutes. The minute he was cleaned and placed back to his mother's breast, he once again became calm.

But as noted by numerous on this thread this isn't about male circs. But the application of circs against 'females' as an effort to maintain subservience in a male dominated, religious fanatic, tribal cultures.

There remains a huge difference between that and the philosophies of non circ cultures, or those that use it as a means of hygiene and potential STD prevention.

Females are not cicr ed in western cultures in any where near those numbers compared to the fanatics mentioned above (Though no doubt there are wacko breakaway Christian or other theological cults who are out there). And usually only as a result of some other medical necessity requiring exposure of their genatalia for varying reasons. Again that's from my contacts.

bottom line?

It's culture, in a sense for some, but not a tribal condition and requirement of control and subservience of females versus medical reasons. If it were we through history would know it. As of today the most egregious offenders remain Islamic fanatics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 19:31
So I'm right after all.  It is a lifestyle choice and mentality.  The people who engage the practice quite often offer their behavior hoping it is excused for "scientifically approved" reasons but yet detest the "fanatics" for their chosen religion whom engage in the practice on an increased basis due to their high population numbers.


http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2014 at 04:30
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I don't think you LC know what a girls genitals look like - and much less what is done to them during Female Genitals Mutilation.
You keep talking about boys - soldiers and what else not - just to sidetrack.

We have encouraged you to educate yourself, but apparently you chose not to do so. - why?

 
Nor does he understand that female circumcision is usually performed by untrained people in a "back alley" procedure, where the expected levels of hygeine are not attained, and the instruments are crude.
 
Nor does he understand that these are not babies who will quickly forget the pain, they are usually young adults.
 
To come back with this type of retort is, imho, trolling, looking to spark an unpleasant response rather than serious discussion or debate.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2014 at 04:55
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I don't think you LC know what a girls genitals look like - and much less what is done to them during Female Genitals Mutilation.
You keep talking about boys - soldiers and what else not - just to sidetrack.

We have encouraged you to educate yourself, but apparently you chose not to do so. - why?


 
Nor does he understand that female circumcision is usually performed by untrained people in a "back alley" procedure, where the expected levels of hygeine are not attained, and the instruments are crude.
 
Nor does he understand that these are not babies who will quickly forget the pain, they are usually young adults.
 
To come back with this type of retort is, imho, trolling, looking to spark an unpleasant response rather than serious discussion or debate.
 
 



Nor in reference to this, in the case of Americans; presuming the train of thought ptrevious:'' After all it was a procedure done without the consent of the infant child''....do not have a civil liberty that might apply to circ.

They have rights but not in that regard.

http://www.thearc.org/what-we-do/public-policy/policy-issues/civil-rights

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2014 at 04:56
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:


Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:



How can we prevent these dark age rituals to happen in a modern world?
I've heard about a few cases, but this is massive - apparently it happens to the majority of girls coming to Scandinavia as refuges from certain countries ....


Translated article:

All 30 girls in a Swedish school class was circumcised

The authorities in the Swedish town of Norrköping has discovered more than 60 cases of genital mutilation of young girls since March.

The authorities in the Swedish town of Norrköping has discovered more than 60 cases of genital mutilation of young girls since March.
In one classroom, all the 30 girls circumcised. The newspaper said Norrköbing Gazette.
28 of the girls had been exposed to the most violent action where both the clitoris and labia are cut away, and the abdomen stitched except for a small opening.
Girl rushed to hospital
- A girl had such strong period pain that she was sent from the school by ambulance to a women's clinic, says Petra Blom Andersson from the Swedish SSP cooperation Elevhälsan in Norrköbing.
The circumcised women experience symptoms such as migraine and menstrual pain. Many people seem to be to take fluids in school, so they do not have to pee, because it is very painful.
Many girls are circumcised when they go on holiday in their parents' home countries.
- We try to warn parents that they could face jail when they come back with a daughter who is circumcised, she tells Norrköbing Gazette.
Imprisonment for circumcision
The operation has since 1982 been banned in Sweden and is punishable by up to 10 years in prison in serious cases.
Since 1999 it has also been illegal to have girls residing in Sweden circumcised outside the country.
No one knows with certainty the extent of circumcision in Sweden, but Norrköbing has been selected to pilot municipality in a regional effort to stop circumcision and help the girls who are suffering because of the intervention.




Its sickening, but one thing more sickening are the honor killings in the news, particularly of women, but also of men in some cases in Pakistan. 



Agreed. I put that right there with abortion.
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literaryClarity View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2014 at 17:21
Sorry but I just don't care for people's cherry pickings.  Just because the procedure can be performed in a hygenic lab environment never means I approve.  That's my personal opinion.  It is after all a lifestyle choice and mentality much as the state of politics no one had any choice but to be born in.  If you are unhappy with it you can always move otherwise what can you do about it?  Get your blood boiling? Puhlease.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2014 at 17:52
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Sorry but I just don't care for people's cherry pickings.  Just because the procedure can be performed in a hygenic lab environment never means I approve.  That's my personal opinion.  It is after all a lifestyle choice and mentality much as the state of politics no one had any choice but to be born in.  If you are unhappy with it you can always move otherwise what can you do about it?  Get your blood boiling? Puhlease.



''Sorry but I just don't care for people's cherry pickings. ''

*that's a subjective identification not objective. no one here is cherry picking but further defending their opinions.

''Just because the procedure can be performed in a hygenic lab environment never means I approve. That's my personal opinion.''

*and your entitled to it.


''If you are unhappy with it you can always move otherwise what can you do about it?''

*a naïve and in many cases, totally inane assessment-recommendation...as these women, because of the fanatic, theological and male dominated, oligarchic states they live in can do no such thing.

''Get your blood boiling? Puhlease''


his opinion. if you want the cream then share the milk. his; iow. is just as valid to him as yours to you.

no charge this time.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stephen Hawkings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2014 at 23:33
I am against female and male circumcision.I think it is far more honorable to the Higher Power(s) to leave your genitals alone.
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