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Global Warming

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    Posted: 20 Mar 2014 at 04:00
The Indo-Australian Plate separation, even if it is still incomplete in some areas, is usually recognized as a forgone conclusion among geologists. During the 1970s, scientists discovered a six hundred mile zone of broken and disfigured crust along the floor of the Indian Ocean. This breakup zone has been in the making for between eight and ten million years. The “Indian Plate” has continued to move north, colliding with Eurasia as it has done for about 50 million years. The “Australian Plate”, meanwhile, has been moving away from the Indian Plate in the west, while crashing into it in the east and causing the pressure that has yielded the new Sumatran earthquakes. The basic dynamics of the situation have been recognized since a 1995 report by researchers from the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory at Columbia University.

Source: http://www.geocurrents.info/news-map/indo-australian-plate-rent-asunder-beneath-the-ocean#ixzz2wTHLI0Nv

The above is an extract from an article on Tectonic Plate movement, and in particular the movement of the Indo/Australian plate.
 
Now, scientist are telling us that Global Warming is a major issue world wide, and some countries are taking steps to reduce carbon emissions, which are said to be the cause of Global Warming.
 
However, while I can't dispute the totality of the science, I foster a theory which takes some of the heat Smile off carbon emissions, and instead looks at Tectonic Plate movement.
 
When read in full, the article tends to justify my belief that, as the earths tectonic plates are moving all of the time, those that are moving closer to the equator are seeing an increase in temperature and more tropical seasonal conditions.
 
The tectonic plates in the Northern Hemisphere, moving to accommodate the southern plates, in a northward direction, would grow colder, providing the unusual weather patterns experienced by countries like the USA and England recently.
 
Combining carbon emissions with the movement of Tectonic Plates seems to me to be a more reasonable explanation for global warming than just the carbon emissions.
 
What do other members think?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2014 at 14:17
The most important thing that people need to understand is that climate change is normal. It happens all the time, usually in small increments, sometimes rather more dramatically. Natural disasters can cause ongoing problems - the effects of some natural disasters in the past were extreme, such as the break up of crust in Siberia that caused the mass-extinction of the Permian/Triassic Event, or the meteortie that caused the K/T Event, or the swift rise in temperature at the end of the last major glaciation. These things can happen again. A super-volcano is building toward an event in Yellowstone PArk, USA, or the return of the Ice Ages caused by orbital irregularities will very likely occur in fifty-sixty thousand years from now.

Britain is moving northward. It's also rising out of the sea as it recovers from ice a mile thick from the last ICe Age, and is also being pushed over sideways due to the expansion of the Atlantic. These forces will continue in Britain as others will elsewhere. The Rocky mountains are not original - they're the second mountain range there, and the Himalayas are still growing. And so on. This movement causes huge variations in climate.

As with all creatures on Earth, our numbers are generating heat that create hot spots, such as cities or inefficient industries. Put simply, there are too many of us. We're too successful as a species, and our presence is overbalancing nature somewhat. Buying silly hybrid cars or putting all your waste into category labelled bins is not going to change that.

In any case, we're in a warm interglacial period and records from the past say we're due to get warmer anyway. So it isn't entirely our own fault, despite our prediliction toward spawning more human beings to litter the Earth with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2014 at 01:00
caldrail:
We're both singing from the same Hym book I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 13:06
Probably, but my point was that global warming has more than one cause and is at least partially due to normal conditions of an interglacial period, rather than simply moaning about CO2. (which incidentially was six times as plentiful in the Cretaceouis period and up to ten times as plentiful in Jurassic times). We also have to consider the extent of agriculture - the methane ejected by farm animals has increased along with the number of animals feeding our population and methane is well worse than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas. Just imagine what a herd of giant sauropods pumped out, and that's with a optimum number. Since the life cycle of these creatures apparently was to spawn huge numbers (little sauropods are missing from evidence of herds though their eggs and spawning sites are there0 that were easily eaten, we can imagine the result of a temporary drop in the numbers of carnivores. Within a generation, a huge incease in methane production in more ways than one. Potentially, at least. So there you have it ladies and gentlemen. if you want to do your bit for the climate, always fart responsibly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2014 at 02:08
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Probably, but my point was that global warming has more than one cause and is at least partially due to normal conditions of an interglacial period, rather than simply moaning about CO2. (which incidentially was six times as plentiful in the Cretaceouis period and up to ten times as plentiful in Jurassic times). We also have to consider the extent of agriculture - the methane ejected by farm animals has increased along with the number of animals feeding our population and methane is well worse than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas. Just imagine what a herd of giant sauropods pumped out, and that's with a optimum number. Since the life cycle of these creatures apparently was to spawn huge numbers (little sauropods are missing from evidence of herds though their eggs and spawning sites are there0 that were easily eaten, we can imagine the result of a temporary drop in the numbers of carnivores. Within a generation, a huge incease in methane production in more ways than one. Potentially, at least. So there you have it ladies and gentlemen. if you want to do your bit for the climate, always fart responsibly.
 
Yes, I see where you're coming from, and I don't disagree.
 
In polite society over here, gentlemen don't fart, they break wind.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2014 at 12:33
Not only does human activities cause warming, but air pollution that according to who kill millions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2014 at 20:16
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

In polite society over here, gentlemen don't fart, they break wind.Wink

 
And how did you ever get to know that?  Shocked Wink





   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2014 at 20:43
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Probably, but my point was that global warming has more than one cause and is at least partially due to normal conditions of an interglacial period, rather than simply moaning about CO2. (which incidentially was six times as plentiful in the Cretaceouis period and up to ten times as plentiful in Jurassic times). We also have to consider the extent of agriculture - the methane ejected by farm animals has increased along with the number of animals feeding our population and methane is well worse than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas. Just imagine what a herd of giant sauropods pumped out, and that's with a optimum number. Since the life cycle of these creatures apparently was to spawn huge numbers (little sauropods are missing from evidence of herds though their eggs and spawning sites are there0 that were easily eaten, we can imagine the result of a temporary drop in the numbers of carnivores. Within a generation, a huge incease in methane production in more ways than one. Potentially, at least. So there you have it ladies and gentlemen. if you want to do your bit for the climate, always fart responsibly.

I won't say you are wrong - but I'll say the more people wrapping themselves into the excuse that the global warning will come no matter what we do, the better chance of no one doing anything. 

We might not be able to stop global warming entirely (disregarding the cause) but if we don't try to limit the human induced part of it, the disaster could become much more devastating than it would have been with only the natural development. 
I think we have to do a lot more than squeezing our but-cheeks responsibly together when the silage is building pressure in the canal.  


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Edited by Northman - 25 Mar 2014 at 22:13
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2014 at 21:28
This was passed on to me by an acquaintance a few weeks ago: My Global Warming Skepticism, for dummies

The last paragraph has always summed up my position on the issue ever since it became a controversy;

Quote
Skeptics advancing alternative explanations (hypotheses) for climate variability represent the way the researcher community used to operate, before politics, policy outcomes, and billions of dollars got involved.


The discipline of Science went out the window for the highest bidder.


Edited by Panther - 25 Mar 2014 at 21:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2014 at 22:42
Panther, the guy you are linking to - I only had to read the first sentence in his first subject, then I knew he was on a mission. Here is what he wrote:

Are Global Temperatures Rising Now? There is no way to know, because natural year-to-year variability in global temperature is so large, with warming and cooling occurring all the time.

There is no way to know? - he says...   I wonder where his paycheck is coming from.

All he had to do was looking out the window. As a scientist he should have noticed that spring comes earlier every year.
Here is a US report...  
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/04/070409-warming-rockies.html

It's evident that the ice sheet on Greenland is receding more and more year by year:
http://www.livescience.com/44129-northeast-greenland-ice-sheet-melting.html

In our news we could hear today that the first beech had unfolded its leaves a month earlier than 50 years ago.

I could list another 20 examples, but you would be bored.

Of course we cannot know to what degree the global warming is man-made - but to say we cannot know whether it's there or not is just silly and he must think his readers are retards.
I lost all motivation to read on when I saw that statement.





   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2014 at 22:55
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Panther, the guy you are linking to - I only had to read the first sentence in his first subject, then I knew he was on a mission. Here is what he wrote:

Are Global Temperatures Rising Now? There is no way to know, because natural year-to-year variability in global temperature is so large, with warming and cooling occurring all the time.

There is no way to know? - he says...   I wonder where his paycheck is coming from.

All he had to do was looking out the window. As a scientist he should have noticed that spring comes earlier every year.
Here is a US report...  
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/04/070409-warming-rockies.html

It's evident that the ice sheet on Greenland is receding more and more year by year:
http://www.livescience.com/44129-northeast-greenland-ice-sheet-melting.html

In our news we could hear today that the first beech had unfolded its leaves a month earlier than 50 years ago.

I could list another 20 examples, but you would be bored.

Of course we cannot know to what degree the global warming is man-made - but to say we cannot know whether it's there or not is just silly and he must think his readers are retards.
I lost all motivation to read on when I saw that statement.



That is why you need to read it all before dismissing it to get a well rounded picture in what he is saying, because he isn't dismissing it, but does concur with the statement in bold.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2014 at 23:10
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Panther, the guy you are linking to - I only had to read the first sentence in his first subject, then I knew he was on a mission. Here is what he wrote:

Are Global Temperatures Rising Now? There is no way to know, because natural year-to-year variability in global temperature is so large, with warming and cooling occurring all the time.

There is no way to know? - he says...   I wonder where his paycheck is coming from.

All he had to do was looking out the window. As a scientist he should have noticed that spring comes earlier every year.
Here is a US report...  
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/04/070409-warming-rockies.html

It's evident that the ice sheet on Greenland is receding more and more year by year:
http://www.livescience.com/44129-northeast-greenland-ice-sheet-melting.html

In our news we could hear today that the first beech had unfolded its leaves a month earlier than 50 years ago.

I could list another 20 examples, but you would be bored.

Of course we cannot know to what degree the global warming is man-made - but to say we cannot know whether it's there or not is just silly and he must think his readers are retards.
I lost all motivation to read on when I saw that statement.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2014 at 23:36
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

 That is why you need to read it all before dismissing it to get a well rounded picture in what he is saying, because he isn't dismissing it, but does concur with the statement in bold.

If you are reading an article from a scientist who initially claims that we cannot know whether the earth is flat or round, I think you would prefer to use your time better than to continue reading...

He has obviously an agenda and I don't need his arguments for an egg-shaped planet. Smile 


   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2014 at 01:36
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

In polite society over here, gentlemen don't fart, they break wind.Wink

 
And how did you ever get to know that?  Shocked Wink

 
 
 
Because I'm a gentleman, of course!!!LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2014 at 14:11
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I won't say you are wrong - but I'll say the more people wrapping themselves into the excuse that the global warning will come no matter what we do, the better chance of no one doing anything. 

We might not be able to stop global warming entirely (disregarding the cause) but if we don't try to limit the human induced part of it, the disaster could become much more devastating than it would have been with only the natural development. 
I think we have to do a lot more than squeezing our but-cheeks responsibly together when the silage is building pressure in the canal.

I have no particular beef with this view - Human beings are affecting the planet by their sheer presence - that cannot be argued. However, the direct effects we are told are bad has more to do with money,  commerce and politics than social responsibility. The concept is hugely exploited by politicans seeking a voting base, or a cause to debate for, or simply because they might be mis-guided enough to believe they actually know better than any of us. As emotive as the subject gets, the supposed evidence for it is only more striking when the sample is restricted - in other words, that the focus on humnan activity, especially the last century, is targeted as the cause. Once you expand the data set to seek verifiable comparisons, the issue becomes a lot less heated (deliberate pu). In any event, we are slaves to solar activity and orbital wobbles. Whatever effect we might have on Earth, truth is it's really only us that are going to suffer, the Earth will carry on regardless, and nature/cosmos will simply push us aside eventually. No species is guaranteed survival. Not even us.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2014 at 02:56
I've just read an article on this topic, which got me thinking-again!
 
When I was young, which wasn't yesterday, the seasons were clearly defined. In Summer, it could be expected that just about every day would be warm and sunny, Autumn (Fall) would cool off a bit, maybe some rain, Winter-cold every day, lots of rain and then Spring brought Spring Lambs, increasingly warmer weather and crop harvests.
 
But these days, whoever is in charge of the weather has got more than a bit confused. (Perhaps it's a committee).
 
We can find in Australia, for example, one day at over 40 degrees C, and a couple of days later, so much torrential rain that we have floods.
 
I can remember having 42 degrees C in my home state on Sunday, followed by snow on Tuesday.
 
Whether it's the earth tilting on its axis, tectonic plate movement or Carbon gas emissions, the weather has changed fairly drastically in the past 50 to 60 years.
 
I'm glad I won't be here in 50 or 60 years time to see the weather patterns.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2014 at 06:09
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

 That is why you need to read it all before dismissing it to get a well rounded picture in what he is saying, because he isn't dismissing it, but does concur with the statement in bold.

If you are reading an article from a scientist who initially claims that we cannot know whether the earth is flat or round, I think you would prefer to use your time better than to continue reading...

He has obviously an agenda and I don't need his arguments for an egg-shaped planet. Smile 




Desiderata, our Viking overlord! Big smile

Besides, you'll likely disagree with me, but i continuously find this issue to be tainted on both sides by political agendas. So nothing can be dismissed or discounted out of hand that is reasonably well thought out without considering all options, even those that disagree with our current positions. Otherwise, we're just robots. Doing what our programmers tell us to do. Allow me too explain my caution, though not exhaustively:

1.) To use an analogy in a sibling setting; Climate science is still in it's diapers, while meteorology is still in it's infancy and industry hasn't even made it into it's preteen years yet. And science, it's the older teen brother.
  But, scientists say that they are in the majority of opinion that global warming is real without a doubt. They say it is set and irrefutable. And yet, science isn't science if it constrains itself in such dogma like the church once had and they know this, or did. That is why every decade or so they revise their findings too say yes, something is happening because of.... or, No it isn't happening like they thought because the computer models were all wrong and a new culprit is found to be the cause, or the complete whole of the climate model might finally be well understood by the end of this century finding that which drives the globes weather systems being tied to a combination of oceanography, Mountain ranges, Coriolis effect, The Sun, cow farts, horse puke human carbon emissions and the sexual practices of Planktons.
Or perhaps this is after all... the natural thing the earth does in regulating temperatures around the globe every several hundred thousand to a million years and there is absolutely nothing we can do to stop. This last one is the scariest of all and who wants to focus on the unpredictable. Always questioning our surroundings and learning with and from science is what drew me to it in the first place. This new dogma is turning me off very quickly and causing me to see the disciplined profession i once followed joyfully, as a politically charged tool that is no longer fun and nonpolitical, but being agenda driven by politics. This latter is my greatest fear for the discipline that might be dieing as it becomes corrupted by human insanity.

2.) Economy and domestic/International law. Who ultimately pays and who will follow it if an unfairness is sensed by one country over another? It's not the entire globe. Human history isn't full of peace, trust and good will. It's the industrialized part that pays while the rest industrialize anyways regardless of the expense to the globe, climate wise or geopolitically. Or maybe it's the other way around, being used way for the industrialized world to maintain control over the rest of the world? Or perhaps... as a powerful tool to be used by one party over another in maintaining power. I dunno....?

3.) Mentality. If everybody was jumping off a bridge and you were told to do so as well, would you listen and then ignore the order to see what's driving the mass hysteria first (Maybe they are right to you to be jumping off that bridge?), or just accept the order and go with the flow into the river below to your death? (I know, likely a bad analogy, but this is the conflict this issue is causing in me)

Sorry, but i thought i would be comfortable with the course of the debate this issue would have taken by now. Instead, it seems more intractable, more politicized, more agenda driven, more distrust and more misunderstood than it has been since this all began!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2014 at 08:51
Oh dear, when the bosses start arguing among themselves, the best place to is OUTA HERE!
 
Warming, schwarming. It's all gonna happen anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2014 at 09:02
It's all cool Toyo, he'll just dock me a days pay and a short vacation to the brig.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2014 at 12:38
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I won't say you are wrong - but I'll say the more people wrapping themselves into the excuse that the global warning will come no matter what we do, the better chance of no one doing anything. 

We might not be able to stop global warming entirely (disregarding the cause) but if we don't try to limit the human induced part of it, the disaster could become much more devastating than it would have been with only the natural development. 
I think we have to do a lot more than squeezing our but-cheeks responsibly together when the silage is building pressure in the canal. 

Just recently I heard a british politician bleating on about what we must do to stop climate change. he's an idiot. You can't stop it. We're into an interglacial period right now and to be frank humanity has been extremely lucky in having a relatively stable climate for the last few thousand years - it's helped us become the threat to climate stability this thread is on about. However, there seems to be this messianic element that insists that humanity is somehow solely responsible and we must repent our climatic sins and so forth. Now I agree that pollution isn't helping (it's unhealthy but in fairness, all it's done is change the bio-chemical balance which life has so far not been able to catch up with - evolution being a slow process - but please note that even in radiated Chernobyl - wildlife is doing well !!!)

Global warming is a reality that is driven by the sun, orbital patterns, volcanic activity, and other natural factors far more than we inflict, since the warming associated with mankind is linked directly to our numbers and concentration (industrialised cities score the worst, which might not suprise you), and taking average global temperatures as a scale of our activity is a bit assumptive, if not entirely mistaken. Sure, I know, the ice caps are melting. Tough. That's happened before and for long periods in the Earth's past, there were no ice caps at all. The reality is that humanity is becoming more specialised, numerous, and vulnerable, thus we now get scared because our complicated nest system is threatened by changes in the world. Again, that's tough. We either roll with punches, adapt, and survive, or we don't. The same is true for any species and for all our folly and arrogance, mankind is not exempt from the rules of natural selection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2014 at 02:58
Caldrail wrote: " Again, that's tough. We either roll with punches, adapt, and survive, or we don't. The same is true for any species and for all our folly and arrogance, mankind is not exempt from the rules of natural selection."
 
I agree with you, but the big difference between ancient climate changes and todays are that we have a better understanding of the issues involved, and how humans may at least slow down the effects of global warming.
 
Science also gives us the advantage of finding new ways to adapt and survive, that's the difference between us and the cave man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2014 at 04:54
It seems to me the places that will suffer the worst at those already on the edge- too many people, in already overstressed environments. Bangladesh, Pakistan, Egypt, India, the Sahel region through west-central Africa come to mind. These places already need help, and a cutback in food production will cause no end of turmoil and conflict. Some places may actually see net gains, such as northern Canada or Russia. Overall though, this will only increase the disparity between the have's and have nots, not a good omen for the future.
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Chieftain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2014 at 12:49
Quote Science also gives us the advantage of finding new ways to adapt and survive, that's the difference between us and the cave man.

But it also creates new dependencies and vulnerabilities along with our increasing numbers.

Look at  what hapened in the Somerset Levels recently. Flooding was widespread, and as usual, the news depict it as a devastating anomaly and tried to infer it was down to global warming as much as maintenance issues concerning water courses. Of course the Levels have always flooded periodically, but human beings have short lives and short memories. These days the houses are indundated, homes and belongings rendered worthless, energy supply becoming suspect and needing repair or replacement. In times gone by, the folk who lived in the Levels simply brushed the mud outside, dried their house and belongings as best they could, and got on with life.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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