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Goshen is not the northeast delta

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truthsetsfree View Drop Down

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    Posted: 16 Aug 2020 at 12:46

Goshen is where the Hebrews stayed in Egypt between the arrival of Jacob in Egypt and the departure of the Hebrews under Moses. Conventional scholars have long supposed it is in the north-east delta area of Lower (North) Egypt. Rohl pretty much has Goshen in the same are except a few dynasties earlier. Rohl said in debate with me in a New Chronology group that there is plenty of etymological evidence for Goshen being in the Fakus area. Is this really so? Let's look at the only few places mentioned in the bible where the Hebrews were when they where in Egypt.

On/Heliopolis (Genesis, Septuagint Exodus, Josephus, Apion)
Heroopolis (Septuagint Genesis, Josephus)
Goshen (Genesis, Exodus)
Land of Rameses (Genesis, Exodus)
Pithom (Exodus)
City of Raamses (Exodus)
Zoan (Psalms)
Memphis (Josephus)?
Latopolis/Letopolis (Josephus).

First of all only 6 or 5 of these 9 or 8 places have been supposed to match sites in the north-east delta of Lower Egypt. Three of the sites are in Middle Egypt (On/Heliopolis, Latopolis/Sokhem).
Each of the other 6 or 5 sites supposed matches can be disputed. Below we give the reasons why the 5 or 6 sites Rameses &/or Raamses, Pithom, Goshen, Zoan and Heroonpolis can't match the conventional candidates in the northeast delta.

Rameses & Raamses are supposed to match Tell Pi-ramses(-meriamun)/Per-rames(i)su (Qantir or el-Daba/Avaris) or else Gasmu/Gesem (Qedarites on the northeast border of Egypt). But problems with this match include:
- The biblical name has no Pi-/Per- (and no -meriamun).
- The biblical name is spelt a little different.
- Pi-ramses of the 19th dynasty is too late for Joseph and Moses. The argument that it is an anachronism is doubtful because they don't show any evidence of later Israelites/Jews having known Piramses.
- The biblical Rameses of Genesis is a land not a city.
- Raamses was built with bricks? Piramses was built by stones (hauled by the Apiru).
- Piramses is too close to Succoth and the border re the exodus route.
- The land of Rameses matches Goshen in Genesis. See Goshen below for why also doesn't match the north-east delta.
Goshen seems to match the Giza area. The land of Rameses of Genesis could possibly be connected with "Many historians have been puzzled by the fact that the name of Rameses should appear on so many of the building blocks that went into the early buildings of the third and fourth dynasties." (Though conventional scholars claim this is just from Ramses II who "stuck his name all over the place".) Robert Palmer suggests Ra'amcc/Re'mcc/Ra-em-shem-su/Reemshusha "the worshippers of Re" is associated with An(eb) or Memphis, but I couldn't find confirmation of this? Gaon matched Raamses with Ain Shams "eye of the sun" a suburb of Cairo built on top of the ancient Heliopolis (city of Ra).
List of Rameses/Raamses candidates:
Piramses(meriamun) (Qantir/Avaris/Daba)
Ra (Ain Shams/Heliopolis)
The temple of (city of) sun/Re of Sesostris 1
"Ra-em-shem-su/Ra'amcc/Re'mcc (An(eb)/Memphis)"?
Ramses in 3rd & 4th dyn buildings
Pyramid(s) (Abu Roash to Giza to Abusir to Sakkara to Dahshur to Lisht to Meidum).
Ra (Thebes).

Pithom is supposed to match Pi-tum / Pa-tmu / Patumus / Per-atum (Heroonpolis or Tell er-Retaba or Tel El Maskhuta) in the north-east delta. But doubts about this match include:
- Pi-tum / Pa-tmu / Patumus / Per-atum is too close to Succoth and the Egyptian border re the Exodus route.
- Pi-tum / Pa-tmu / Patumus / Per-atum of the 19th dynasty is too late in overall Egyptian history for Moses who was early in overall Biblical history.
- The biblical name looks like its etymology may not be Pi/Pa- + Atum. (Though a king Thom is mentioned in the El-Arish incription which has similarities with the exodus story.)
- The biblical name is Pi- not Per-.
- There are other possible candidates for Pithom. List of Pithom candidates:
Pi-tum / Pa-tmu / Patumus / Per-atum (Heroonpolis or Tell er-Retaba or Tel El Maskhuta).
Pr Itmw / Per Atum / *Par-'Atama the temple of (Ra-)Atum (Heliopolis) in the reign of Kheper-ka-ra Senusret 1.
P-ium/Piom/Faiyum (Pasebek/Crocodilopolis/Shetet?)
P-ium/Piom/Faiyum (Moeris)
Tithoes (Labyrinth)
(Note that Pium and Peratum are both associated with lakes.)

Goshen/Gosen/Goson (Hebrew/Massoretic) / Gesem (Greek/Septuagint) / Kessan (Artapanus) is supposed to match Faqus/Paqas/Phakousa/Phacus(sa) / Qesem/Kesem/Gesem in the north-east delta. But doubts about this match include:
- Gasmu is only from the 7th century bc, Qesem is only from 26th dynasty (centuries after the exodus), and Gesem of the Septuagint is only from Ptolemaic, and Kessan only from the even later Artapanus.
- The names match isn't necessarily that close. The biblical has no P-. Fakus/Phacus only has 3 letters the same (if the k/c/q matches g, and if the s matches sh), there is no -en. The Septuagint version Gesem is close to Qesem but that might only be because they then thought they matched, or Qesem might have been named after Goshen sometime after Joseph?
- Genesis says Goshen was the best of the land. This doesn't match the north-east delta in my opinion.
- Exodus says the Hebrews were multiplied throughout the land which may also argue a more central location?
- Pharaoh put Joseph's brothers over his cattle, which might not match the north-east delta?
- Goshen was a land, Fakus is a city.
- Goshen is also called Rameses. See Rameses above for reasons why can't match the north-east delta.
- Goshen was near Joseph (Gen 45:10).
- The baby Moses was placed in the Nile river, which seems more like the main trunk of the Nile than one of the 7 mouths of the Nile.
- The baby Moses was found by a daughter of Pharaoh, which means a location near the royal palace.
- The royal capital of Egypt was not in the delta at the time of Joseph and Moses. Joseph and Moses were not likely to be running back and forward between the capital and the delta.
- Moses took the bones of Joseph, and Joseph was more likely buried somewhere between Giza to Sakkara to Dahshur to Lisht.
- Where is there find of Jacob etc in their Qesem location? We have finds of Jacob etc in our Goshen/Giza location.
- There is alternative evidence that Goshen may match Giza/Gizah/Jizah/Jizzah/Giseh/Gise/Gizeh/'gi:ze/Guizeh/Er-ges-her or Agouza/Agooza nearby Cairo. Versions of the name Goshen/Gesem/Kessan are similar to Giza/Gizeh/Er-ges-her. Jacob at Goshen/Gesem/Kessan matches Khufu/Cheops at Giza/Er-ges-her, and the shepherd Philitis "lover of righteousness" at Giza in the 4th dynasty. Josephus said the exodus started from Letopolis not too far from Giza.
- The meaning of Goshen is unknown but the suggested meanings of Goshen have been "drawing near", or "place of light/plenty/comfort", or "cultivated" or "to labour", or "inundated land", or "the body", or "large flood waters", or "craftsmans enclosed quarters", "skilled craftsmen, or stone brick masons + an enclosed city, or large private land of the pharaoh", or gsm "stormy sea", gasam "storm/downpour", or ["the action of spewing forth"?], or [Egyptian gsaaz "borderland"?] Some of these meanings better match Giza than Fakus.
The suggested meanings of Giza have been Egyptian/Arabic Er-ges-her "beside the high", or Egyptian/Arabic "border", or Arabic al-Jizzah "the valley/plateau", or Persian diz "fortress/castle".
Agouza means "an old woman" in Arabic.

Zoan/Tso'an has long been supposed to match Zean/Djan/Djanet/Sant/Tanis/Djan/Tsan/San, but there are doubts about this match:
- We can see that the names match is not so close as has been implied.
- The bible says Hebron was built 7 years before Zoan. But it is said that Tanis is not known before the 19th dynasty. Tanis is mainly known from the 21st, 22nd & 23rd dynasties. Though Hoeh says a statue of a 13th dynasty king Mermeshoi was found at Tanis. A statue of the 6th dynasty king Pepi was also found at Tanis (ref Brugsch-Bey). These might agree with our Moses in the 6th & 12th/13th dynasty, but the statues might have been moved there later, plus Hebron was founded in the bible somewhere between/before Abraham or Kohath or Moses or Joshua or Caleb or Samson or David and Absalom. Archaeologically Hebron is attested by the EBA, though almost devoid in the LBA.
Zoan is more likely to match the likes of Memphis aka Ankh-tawy/Anekh-tauy which was founded by Menes.
Zoan means "place of departure", and Josephus said the exodus started from Letopolis.

- This only occurs in the Septuagint and Josephus and is hardly reliable. It may only have been their theory then.
- Josephus only says that is where Joseph & Jacob met and that they afterwards "travelled on slowly".
- Bey's map has Heliopolis in the nome of Heroopolites.
- Josephus otherwise says the exodus started from Letopolis.

Semites in Egypt:
The north-east delta was not the only place and time that there is evidence of Semites in Egypt.
The shepherd Philitis dwelt at Giza in the 4th dynasty.
There were Asiatics in the 1st Intermediate Period (ref Clayton).
There was an increase in Levantine names in the reign of Amenemhet 2 (ref Clayton).

Store houses:
The few sites of the north-east delta are not the only places and times to have had storage facilities.
The labyrinth had heaps of store rooms according to classical sources. (For miskenoth the AV has treasure cities, the RV has store cities, the Septuagint has strong/fortified cities.)
List of candidates for Arei Miskenoth "treasure cities" or "store cities" or "strong/fortified cities":
Granaries/silos and storeouses at the later Pitum & Piramses.
Tel el Maskhuta.
"all the tekhenen" of the building of Senusert 1.
"huge quantities of ... stores ... found in Sesostris' funerary temple".
"many rooms" or "3000 apartments, half of them underground" of the Labyrinth.

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truthsetsfree View Drop Down

Joined: 30 May 2014
Location: bad New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 290
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2021 at 16:16
Updated Goshen article is posted here https://iwillnotbeassimilated.blogspot.com/2021/05/goshen-of-genesis-exodus-is-not-in-nile.html .
Not sure whether Eretz Goshen/Gesem/Kessan may match Er-ges-her/Giza/Gizeh, but it is intriguing possibility.
Fine to discuss any points here.
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