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Guns in the US

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 11:36
I remember when USA and UN invaded Somalia one of the aimes was to disarm the gangs as it was expressed. Perhaps the Americans should also devote themselves to disarm their own gangs.

Edited by Carcharodon - 17 Jan 2011 at 14:28
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Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Dear Captain, the USA is currently following the Soviet Union into a defeat at the hands of well armed civilians in Afghanistan. The civilians are using weapons made in owner-operated workshops, they have no airforce, no armour, limited artillery, and only the intelligence that they can get with nothing more than a computer with a net connection and sandals.
 
So don't tell me that an armed populace doesn't protect you from invasion. Sure, you need know how, determination, paitence, good tactics and a helping of terrain, but so does a well equiped army.
 
To answer Constantine's question from a Af-Pak perspective is easy. You can defend yourself from invaders, whether Russian, American, Bukhti, the Police or anyone else. The cost is very high in terms of civil conflict, but it does work.
 
Why Americans needs to be able to access weapons of that calibre (ok, RPGs are not permitted in America while they are in Pak) is a completely different question, because they aren't under constant threat from invasion by everyone.
 
Popular resistance is a media manufactured myth. If a country is hell bent on destroying it it will happen no matter how fierce it is or how well armed is the population.
 
Russia won the war in Afghanistan up until they decided to trust the locals with security in 83 and 84. They crushed the Chechen resistance and the Sri Lankan government crushed the Tamils and both are much much more fearsome and bloody than the Talibs and the Iraqi resistance.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 15:10
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Last time I checked most DC suburbs are in Virginia and in Virginia a baby could buy a gun without any background checks.
 
Anyway most people advocating gun control advocate laws that are sensible, ban on semi automatics, ban on open or concealed carriage and restriction on cartridge size and how many guns one can own. I mean why the hell are pro-gun people so up and arms against such measures?
 
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Er, Al, when one says Washington DC they are not talking Arlington nor Fairfax. They mean the bounds set by Maryland's perimeters and the Potomac. Are you suggesting that the DC crime rate is the fault of Virginia? And hey, are you questioning Virginia's honor by saying "babies" can buy guns...oh the calumny, oh the misrepresentation, oh the untruth: The law:
 
It is a crime for any person to sell, give or otherwise furnish a handgun to a minor if he has reason to believe that the buyer or recipient is under 18 years of age, unless such transfer is made between family members or for the purpose of engaging in a sporting event or activity. 

Now excuse me while I go make sure the nursery is armed.

The 'unless' in that law you quote rather undermines your position about babies. The way I read it it says quite plainly that I can sell, give or otherwise a handgun to my six-moth-old baby son if I feel like it. Or any other child if I am providing it for a sporting event or activity.
 
Nothing there to stop Ma Barker giving her children some early practice.
 
@Pikeshott Introducing the second amendment is merely an emotive red herring. The question is not whether gun control laws would be unconstitutional. The question is whether they should be enforced by amending the constitution. The US Constitution has an admirable process for being amended, so there's no point in going on about anything being impossible because it is 'unconstitutional'.


Edited by gcle2003 - 17 Jan 2011 at 15:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 15:19
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

  Of course, not all of these loons can be as creative as McVeigh nor have the patience of detailed planning, but then are you questioning the actual statistics from the NYPD as presented in the NYTimes?
Mentioning McVeigh reminds me. Manufacturing - or even reading about how to manufacture - bombs is highly illegal in the US, so that you can even be held without habeas corpus if suspected of it. So why not similar laws against guns? Granted on the other hand the US suffers more from bombings iirc than any other country even including the middle east despite the laws.
 
So laws are not all that effective, but still there's an irony buried there somewhere. Why is a bomb not an arm as covered by the second amendment? After all, well-regulated militias and resistance movements in general can make effective use of bombs, can't they?


Edited by gcle2003 - 17 Jan 2011 at 15:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 15:23
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

There is no defense against deranged persons.  Suicide bombers blowing up 50 people every other day is IMO derangement just as much as a lunatic opening fire on a political gathering in Arizona or a student at a school in Europe.

Again, if those who are outraged can't deal with it, too bad.  A state where only the police have arms is a police state.
 
Nonsense. A state where the people need guns is a tyranny.
 
The US is far more of a police state nowadays than any country in Europe, just as it is more militaristic, and the situation has been getting worse for the last decade or so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 15:29
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Dear Captain, the USA is currently following the Soviet Union into a defeat at the hands of well armed civilians in Afghanistan. The civilians are using weapons made in owner-operated workshops, they have no airforce, no armour, limited artillery, and only the intelligence that they can get with nothing more than a computer with a net connection and sandals.
 
So don't tell me that an armed populace doesn't protect you from invasion. Sure, you need know how, determination, paitence, good tactics and a helping of terrain, but so does a well equiped army.
You just finished saying that they aren't a well-equipped army. Yes a guerilla army can ensure an occupying army has to be continually on alert. But it can't eject such an occupying army. Even the Spanish guerillas couldn't get rid of the French: the British had to take the lead. The Yugoslav guerillas counldn't get rid of the Germans alone, even allowing tem weapons shipped in from abroad. The Spanish Republicans were helpless in face of the Falangists. and so on and so on.
Importantly though, your guerilla army doesn't stop you being invaded and occupied.
Quote
To answer Constantine's question from a Af-Pak perspective is easy. You can defend yourself from invaders, whether Russian, American, Bukhti, the Police or anyone else. The cost is very high in terms of civil conflict, but it does work.
 
Why Americans needs to be able to access weapons of that calibre (ok, RPGs are not permitted in America while they are in Pak) is a completely different question, because they aren't under constant threat from invasion by everyone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 15:32
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

There is no defense against deranged persons.  Suicide bombers blowing up 50 people every other day is IMO derangement just as much as a lunatic opening fire on a political gathering in Arizona or a student at a school in Europe.

Again, if those who are outraged can't deal with it, too bad.  A state where only the police have arms is a police state.
 
Nonsense. A state where the people need guns is a tyranny.
 
The US is far more of a police state nowadays than any country in Europe, just as it is more militaristic, and the situation has been getting worse for the last decade or so.


You are the one writing nonsense in that first sentence. 

In your opinion (for the six years I have been on AE), the United States is a combination of the Kingdom of Prussia and a first edition of 1984.

That is, and has been, hyperbolic nonsense as well, and you know it.  Wink


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 22:12
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

pinguin,

A dictator taking power is far more likely in Chile than it is here.  Wink


Certainly. Because Americans are more easily fooled. You play the Yankee Doodle and all Americans dance to the tune. Just imagine a people chosing an idiot like George Bush Confused

need of dictators there, giving the fact that people is already controlled quite well. Only rebelious people had dictators.


The above statements are asinine!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 22:37
The problem here is that peoples panicky morals are getting in the way of the more responsible in a society, US society in this instance. We might as well be exploring the repeal of Roe versus Wade, and then we all can watch the real fire works light up the US!

Life is a risk the moment we are born. Legislation as useful as it can be in establishing laws, is not an insurance policy to a longer life free from the violence dealt from the gun,. If somebody is so hell bent on storming and dieing within a heavily populated area with assault weapons, all the moralizing on legislation in the world will not stop them. Everybody in this world is only a headline away from the next tragic story of the crazy local yahoo determined for their few moments of fame.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 22:48

I wish the Americans would contribute to this thread with more than just ridicule and incredulousness. It is one of the areas where there is a major cultural and ideological different between America and most of the rest of the world, especially the developed part.
It always has to be assumed that the majority non-Americans in this subject of discussion genuninely don't understand where Americans are coming from. As far as I can tell, its a values and cultural thing, not a logical thing.

Originally posted by AJ AJ wrote:

Popular resistance is a media manufactured myth. If a country is hell bent on destroying it it will happen no matter how fierce it is or how well armed is the population.
 
Russia won the war in Afghanistan up until they decided to trust the locals with security in 83 and 84. They crushed the Chechen resistance and the Sri Lankan government crushed the Tamils and both are much much more fearsome and bloody than the Talibs and the Iraqi resistance.

However successful popular resistance may be it is certainly not a media manufactured myth.

The war in Sri Lanka is a civil war, which are caused not prevented by arms proliferation.
Russia cannot have 'won' a war in '83 if it lost the same war in '89, but I accept your point that if you wish, and have the capability, of being exceedingly brutal you can suppress just about anyone. If you can get away with deporting the majority of the population to Siberia (chechenia) or killing anyone near someone who resisted, then you can win pretty much every war.
But in most wars you cannot do that.

Originally posted by gcle gcle wrote:

You just finished saying that they aren't a well-equipped army. Yes a guerilla army can ensure an occupying army has to be continually on alert. But it can't eject such an occupying army. Even the Spanish guerillas couldn't get rid of the French: the British had to take the lead. The Yugoslav guerillas counldn't get rid of the Germans alone, even allowing tem weapons shipped in from abroad. The Spanish Republicans were helpless in face of the Falangists. and so on and so on.
Importantly though, your guerilla army doesn't stop you being invaded and occupied.

I agree. Guerillas can only drain the enemy until they decide it's not worth it.
However having an armed population does mean that you don't have a regular army as well. Examples could be the Russian irregulars in WW2, or even the American war of independence.

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The thread is beginning to heat up so much so that I fear some crazed fanatic will soon spray the lot us with a hail of ethereal bullets--no not the little missile from the Derringer Carcharadon interrupted with earlier--when in actuality the sense of the 2nd Amendment can be explained simply under the old Common Law [i.e. a man's home is his castle and he holds the right to defend this particular domain with all the wherewithall at hand]. The notion that gun regulation does not exist in the United States is but fiction since in almost any urban setting the discharge of a firearm is prohibited save in the instance of fear-for-life. Any idiot celebrating by discharging a gun ino the air commits a criminal act and is subject to prosecution. Heck, you can be arrested for failure to secure a firearm from access by minors! So the posit that there are no gun restriction at law in the United States is a fiction. States for long periods of time could and did ban varying degrees of weaponry and the controversy now arising stems directly from the 20th century USSC interpretation of the Constitution, which applied the Bill of Rights not only to the Federal government but to the states as well. That point was brought home recently when local jurisdictions such as the city of Chicago and the District of Columbia had their statutes voided under national constitutional premises!
 
Now when Gcle introduced the subject of bombs and noticed how stiff restriction apply (he might just as easily have mention dynamite, which too is strictly controlled and regulated), I believe he did not realize he had touched upon a crucial distinction. A gun for the purpose of defense is a right, but no weapon that carries the implication for indiscriminate agression extending beyond the realm of the personal is entertained as "a right to bear arms". Yes, it is sort of out-of-date to view your hunting rifle as essential to a "well armed militia", but it is not that far-fetched to envision a Seven Days in May scenario or a Red October connundrum--heck if Hollywood imagines it who's to say it can not happen.
 
OK you can relese a few chuckles, but just as the Pinguin has taken his Mestizo Mystique to the heights of fancy under the guise of national identity, so too a similar process is in operation in the American dialogue over the bearing of arms and the distrust of an overweaning authority turning the issue as a fixed verity at law akin to sanctity of the old Twelve Tablets in the Roman Republic! Personally, given the level of contemporary intelligence I am scared as hell over the thought that the dweeb down the street has a gun and not trusting government to do what is correct at the exact time needed, I had well have my trusty blunderbuss at hand to "give it" to that wascally wabbit the minute he trespasses! Call it the Social Security of the Old West...and it doesn't bankrupt the country eitherEvil Smile.
 
 
See it's as simple as that despite the heavy hand of Ricky Gervais-like humor.


Edited by drgonzaga - 18 Jan 2011 at 02:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2011 at 00:10
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

 
So don't tell me that an armed populace doesn't protect you from invasion. Sure, you need know how, determination, paitence, good tactics and a helping of terrain, but so does a well equiped army.

The U.S. is not precisely a good place for guerrilla fighting. Just imagine a guerrilla band hidding in the great planes from helicopter gunfire LOL...

Even more, American trainned militaries maybe some of the best in the world in tranning, but the common folk are just coach potatoes. Can you imagine Americans fighting a guerrilla war? Without MTV? Burgers? I don't see how.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2011 at 00:16
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

 
So don't tell me that an armed populace doesn't protect you from invasion. Sure, you need know how, determination, paitence, good tactics and a helping of terrain, but so does a well equiped army.

The U.S. is not precisely a good place for guerrilla fighting. Just imagine a guerrilla band hidding in the great planes from helicopter gunfire LOL...

Even more, American trainned militaries maybe some of the best in the world in tranning, but the common folk are just coach potatoes. Can you imagine Americans fighting a guerrilla war? Without MTV? Burgers? I don't see how.




 
Apparently you haven't seen the following documentary:
 
 
-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2011 at 00:18
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

OK you can relese a few chuckles, but just as the Pinguin has taken his Mestizo Mystique to the heights of fancy under the guise of national identity,..

Better Mestizo than pure Gallego Wink... Anyways, genetics shows I tell the truth. But don't get envious, you Iberian guys are mixed also: Cro-Magnon+Neanderthal. Perhaps you could build your own identity around that. LOL


Edited by pinguin - 18 Jan 2011 at 00:18
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This whole thread/issue is being over analyzed.  IT IS A CULTURAL ISSUE!

What pertains where others live may not pertain here.  So???  Let it go.

The pretensions of some to moral superiority sound much like the flushing of toilets in the morning. LOL 
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Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

 
Apparently you haven't seen the following documentary:
 
 
-Akolouthos


Think about it: When was the last time Americans fought a war in disadvantage?

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Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

The pretensions of some to moral superiority sound much like the flushing of toilets in the morning. LOL 


The point is simple: everywhere people know that the solution for those random killings, that often happen in the U.S., is gun control. Foreigners simply can't understand why Americans are so blind.
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Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

 
Apparently you haven't seen the following documentary:
 
 
-Akolouthos


Think about it: When was the last time Americans fought a war in disadvantage?



Why is that our problem?  You fight wars when it is to your advantage.  You fight wars on the other guy's territory to make him pay a disproportionate price for the war.  Sometimes it works; sometimes not.  Whatever, YOU don't bear so much of the cost.

 
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Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

The pretensions of some to moral superiority sound much like the flushing of toilets in the morning. LOL 


The point is simple: everywhere people know that the solution for those random killings, that often happen in the U.S., is gun control. Foreigners simply can't understand why Americans are so blind.


It is not simple (as you so often think).  It is complex, and what foreigners can't understand is their problem, not ours.

If foreigners cannot see, it is because they are blind, not we.


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Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:


Why is that our problem?  You fight wars when it is to your advantage.  You fight wars on the other guy's territory to make him pay a disproportionate price for the war.  Sometimes it works; sometimes not.  Whatever, YOU don't bear so much of the cost.


Indeed. But in the case of a coup well done, the American people would be in disadvantage with respect to the American army. I doubt the American people, with all its toy guns, could stand a week against a really bloody dictator.

That's why I said the American people hasn't fight in disadvantage since 1812, at the very least. So, I doubt theirs precious guns stored at home could serve for much.
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Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

...
It is not simple (as you so often think).  It is complex, and what foreigners can't understand is their problem, not ours.

If foreigners cannot see, it is because they are blind, not we.


It would be easier if authomatic and advanced guns would be less available to the public, to the criminals, unstable individuals, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2011 at 01:13
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:


Why is that our problem?  You fight wars when it is to your advantage.  You fight wars on the other guy's territory to make him pay a disproportionate price for the war.  Sometimes it works; sometimes not.  Whatever, YOU don't bear so much of the cost.


Indeed. But in the case of a coup well done, the American people would be in disadvantage with respect to the American army. I doubt the American people, with all its toy guns, could stand a week against a really bloody dictator.

That's why I said the American people hasn't fight in disadvantage since 1812, at the very least. So, I doubt theirs precious guns stored at home could serve for much.


Historically, "bloody dictators" have been a Chilean problem, not a US problem. 

"Would be; could be" - doesn't mean anything here.


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Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:


Historically, "bloody dictators" have been a Chilean problem, not a US problem. 

"Would be; could be" - doesn't mean anything here.


That's why you aren't prepared. And also, why owning machine guns and storing them under the bed doesn't make sense.

You prove my point. Thanks.Wink


Edited by pinguin - 18 Jan 2011 at 01:20
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Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:


Historically, "bloody dictators" have been a Chilean problem, not a US problem. 

"Would be; could be" - doesn't mean anything here.


That's why you aren't prepared. And also, why owning machine guns and storing them under the bed doesn't make sense.

You prove my point. Thanks.Wink


Your post means, and proves, nothing.  LOL  My posts obliterate your "points."  LOL  Case closed. LOL





 
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Follow the line of reasoning. It is called logic. If you do, you will notice I cough you in a trap.

Bye


Edited by pinguin - 18 Jan 2011 at 01:29
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Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Follow the line of reasoning. It is called logic. If you do, you will notice I cough you in a trap.

Bye


You just "flounced off".....which means you lost.  LOL

You "cough me in a trap."  LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL


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OK. Given you don't have time to reason (Lord: this generation of Mario Bros. lacks patience), I will explain it to you.

YOU: Historically, "bloody dictators" have been a Chilean problem, not a US problem. 

So, you confirm bloody dictators aren't an US problem. Let's agree on this point.

Now, if dictators aren't a problem to the US, then THERE ISN'T A NEED for guns at the hand of civilians. Why they should have guns when there is no dictator around?

Did you followed it? It is not so hard. Well, it will consume a little bit of time to understand it, but it is not the Rubrick cube at all. Don't be lazy.




Edited by pinguin - 18 Jan 2011 at 01:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2011 at 01:48
Whatever......


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2011 at 02:30
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:


Why is that our problem?  You fight wars when it is to your advantage.  You fight wars on the other guy's territory to make him pay a disproportionate price for the war.  Sometimes it works; sometimes not.  Whatever, YOU don't bear so much of the cost.


Indeed. But in the case of a coup well done, the American people would be in disadvantage with respect to the American army. I doubt the American people, with all its toy guns, could stand a week against a really bloody dictator.

That's why I said the American people hasn't fight in disadvantage since 1812, at the very least. So, I doubt theirs precious guns stored at home could serve for much.
You realise the American army is made up of American people.
 
And yes, I can imagine stiff public resistance if anyone invaded the US. It's the whole national ethos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2011 at 02:39
He guys...you've got to excuse the old bird--
 
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