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Guns in the US

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2018 at 21:18
toyomotor, i think that under a moderate amount of gun control, you would qualify for possession, or probably conceal/carry.  There are liberal mayors who are pro-gun control, who nonetheless possess firearms, or for that matter, have security details.  It is a little bit, do as I say, not as I do.  It may make sense, but it is not necessarily a good message.

Does the invention of art perspective have anything to do with the development of personal perspective?  "Art" perspective was developed in the renaissance.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 04:55
After 29 times Flori-duh Sheriffs office has contact with mentally ill teenager wielding guns, threatening to kill. He should have been Sectioned, the fact that he had guns is beyond the pale!
Ex-Police officer "School Resource Deputy" who is ARMED, decides not to pursue an active shooter! 

Add to it the liberal media-and it is-Twitterverse injecting the daily politically correct upgrade so we can all walk around feeling ashamed. 

Who's gonna feed all those Venezuelan migrants?

Why do we still know exactly JACK and SQUAT about Las Vegas shooter, why and how he planned it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 10:58
This post could have been properly posted under Trump the Important Issues, but I decided to post it here.

Young people throughout the United States are launching protest action by the lack of movement by government on Gun Laws. These protests have their genesis in the multiple mass murders which have taken place on school and college campuses across the states over recent years, and nothing being done by governments.

Both State and Federal Governments over many years have turned a deliberate blind eye to the gun trade in the US, which has given rise to the current situation where there are more firearms in the USA than people.

Shootings of multiple people, particularly in schools/colleges, had become common place-so much that I suggest that the general public had become inured to the fact.

The Federal Government needs to remember the Viet Nam War era, when protest action started among those young men proposed to be drafted, and their supporters. The movement gained traction among the adult population, who joined the protests to the extent that the Government could no longer ignore their protests.

The growing protest action caused the start of the end of US involvement in Viet Nam.

Trump is now in a similar position to L.B.Johnson, in that the war became so much of a mill stone around his neck, and that of his successor, Tricky Dick NIXON, that American Forces were already being withdrawn before the fall of Saigon. Nixon had ordered the winding back of troops from Viet Nam by early December 1969, within 12 months of his inauguration.

Some important outlets in the US have voluntarily changed their gun sales policy, some have even ceased stocking firearms. These are the people that Trump needs to enlist in his fight against the gun laws, if in fact he supports gun control. All the movement needs is a small push by Trump to get the ball rolling.

The Trump administration ignores the fledgeling protest movement at it's peril.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 11:14
The other issue that Trump needs to confront is the retraining of all law enforcement people and other government employees who carry firearms in the daily course of their duties. Of course the armed services would be exempt.

The training needs to be intensive, and concentrate of the fact that human life is sacrosanct, and  the ultimate use of force should be strictly reserved in most cases. I would also suggest that in some confrontations between armed offenders and police arise from the initial approach by police. This should wherever possible be friendly, honest and approachable, but with caution also being taken. A development of mutual trust between the community and the police is to aimed for. I accept this happens in smaller, country communities.

Australian, British, New Zealand Police are trained to retreat to safety, where possible, if confronted by an armed offender. Then every effort is made to resolve the situation by negotiation. In the overwhelming majority of cases the suspect is arrested-alive.

Of course there will always be the odd occasion when lethal force is the only solution, such as hostage situations where the offender has harmed or is about to harm hostages, or the attending police have been left with no avenue of retreat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2018 at 00:44
I just came upon an article at https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/why-are-white-men-stockpiling-guns/

Extract:
Quote Research suggests it's largely because they're anxious about their ability to protect their families, insecure about their place in the job market and beset by racial fears.

The article is, IMHO, very interesting and, if as scientifically based as claimed, sheds light on the psyche of many American men.

Worth reading.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2018 at 02:53
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


The Federal Government needs to remember the Viet Nam War era, when protest action started among those young men proposed to be drafted, and their supporters. The movement gained traction among the adult population, who joined the protests to the extent that the Government could no longer ignore their protests.

The growing protest action caused the start of the end of US involvement in Viet Nam.

As far as I can tell, governement response to protests of Vietnem was violent supression. When that started to rightly Piss People Off, (which is why We Want Guns) they flooded the country with LSD. Nixon is resistant to very end about leaving Vietnam. Only when McNamara convinces him that the troops "can't get the job done" does Nixon orchestrate a faux diplomatic political victory.

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Trump is now in a similar position to L.B.Johnson, in that the war became so much of a mill stone around his neck, and that of his successor, Tricky Dick NIXON, that American Forces were already being withdrawn before the fall of Saigon. Nixon had ordered the winding back of troops from Viet Nam by early December 1969, within 12 months of his inauguration.

Some important outlets in the US have voluntarily changed their gun sales policy, some have even ceased stocking firearms. These are the people that Trump needs to enlist in his fight against the gun laws, if in fact he supports gun control. All the movement needs is a small push by Trump to get the ball rolling.

The Trump administration ignores the fledgeling protest movement at it's peril.



All the protesters want, is to please the educators who are encouraging them. And they should protest if they want to but the kids in Flori-duh Know the story. Every level of security was useless bc  authorities involved did not heed very obvious warnings. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2018 at 03:10
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Does the invention of art perspective have anything to do with the development of personal perspective?  "Art" perspective was developed in the renaissance.


In religious art, symmetry becomes essential to perspective. Some say it was Raphael who really got a handle on the proper perspective for religious art.
Muslims don't represent images of God but they love the beauty of geometric patterns as an aesthetic. Beauty is usually related to symmetry in the human face and in art it came to be expressed with balancing saints or angels around a focal point. The perfection to match God's creation. Muslims always leave a small imperfection in their art, and thus relinquish perfection to God.


Art is the study that includes all other studies and religion is of a similar nature. One of my favorite paintings at the link is the School of Athens by Raphael. 

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2018 at 08:52
And what the last two posts have to do with guns in America, buggered if I know. Just another highfalutin' bunch of words that, when it's all boiled down, amount to zip, nada.

Psychobabble!

Yes, those in positions of power and authority ignored the warning signs, and as the result, you now have the current situation where no ordinary citizen can be guaranteed safety anywhere in public.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2018 at 21:38
I have never seen a fellow American citizen carrying a firearm in public.  At the range, at a gun store, but never in public, with the exception of law enforcement.  I think that you, toyomotor, think that the US is the Wild West.  Now people in rural and suburban America have a certain distrust of the cities as being crime ridden.  But for people who are in the cities, there are good areas and there are bad areas, and if you live there you generally know which is which.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 01:52
Quote  But for people who are in the cities, there are good areas and there are bad areas, and if you live there you generally know which is which.

Obviously. And people in small rural towns often live their lives in peace.

And I know that some big cities are worse than others when it comes to guns being used in the commission of crimes. Read the Chicago Tribune any day of the week, same ol' same ol'-shootings and murders.

That you have never seen a fellow American carrying a firearm in public indicates to me that you live and travel in a peaceful zone-no more than that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 02:05
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote  But for people who are in the cities, there are good areas and there are bad areas, and if you live there you generally know which is which.

Obviously. And people in small rural towns often live their lives in peace.

And I know that some big cities are worse than others when it comes to guns being used in the commission of crimes. Read the Chicago Tribune any day of the week, same ol' same ol'-shootings and murders.

That you have never seen a fellow American carrying a firearm in public indicates to me that you live and travel in a peaceful zone-no more than that.

Actually toyomotor, the gun free rural zones are most commonly selected for home invasion. Especially the Amish, without electricity in most homes to this day. Even though they have dogs and guns, they are still frequent victims of gun related crime. Amish say guns are not for self defense but they are buying lots of hand guns.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2018 at 02:19
Quote Stephon Clark, an unarmed black man who was killed by Sacramento police officers earlier this month, was shot eight times, with nearly all of the shots striking him from behind, according to private autopsy results announced Friday. (from https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/pathologist-says-stephon-clark-was-shot-police-7-times-behind-n861591)

This is the guy who was holding a mobile phone.

How can this ever be justified?

Is it any wonder that both black and white are protesting?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2018 at 04:14
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote Stephon Clark, an unarmed black man who was killed by Sacramento police officers earlier this month, was shot eight times, with nearly all of the shots striking him from behind, according to private autopsy results announced Friday. (from https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/pathologist-says-stephon-clark-was-shot-police-7-times-behind-n861591)

This is the guy who was holding a mobile phone.

How can this ever be justified?

Is it any wonder that both black and white are protesting?

Remember Charlie Manson predicting a race war?

Details are few at the moment except for the madness. Remember Fabio? He said California looks worse than Somalia did in the 1990's. 

Officials in CA, such as Gov Brown and Attorney General Xavier Baccerra is telling local police not to enforce Federal Immigration Law. Warn illegals to run from Immigration cops -ICE- and tipping off people about operations to locate some very bad offenders. The whole state is descending into hell, bring on the Sink Holes!

So what was that about a black kid who didn't stop while he was running from the scene of a break in at night with his phone out? 
I don't know but I'm sure Al Sharpton or Tiwana Brawley or some such bull****er can offer transcendence and wisdom. Soon as they is done dancing on the tables at the Sheriff's office.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2018 at 09:17
Quote So what was that about a black kid who didn't stop while he was running from the scene of a break in at night with his phone out?

No-police had been advised that a man had been breaking car windows. On arrival at the scene, they saw Stephon Clark in his grandmothers driveway or back yard. He was holding a mobile phone, and, according to the police, he was running away. Twenty shots were fired at him when police say they thought that he was holding a gun. Seven shots hit him in the upper back, one shot hit him in the side.

One police officer then shouted,"MUTE", meaning, turn off body cameras, which they did.Why?

Twenty shots were fired in a residential area, only eight of which hit the victim, the remaining twelve shots could well have injured or killed an innocent bystander or householder.

What more needs to be said, "Black Lives DO Matter."




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2018 at 12:53
But then what? If he were white it WOULD NOT MATTER? As has been proven, the cops in the US killed more WHITE people in the last ten years.

There is video of the kid running and climbing back yard fences. Yes there is a "mute" in the police recording its all very upsetting and suspicious.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2018 at 21:24
SNAFU and FUBAR.

You know if you have a rabbit and a dog, and the rabbit runs, the dog is going to go after it.  If the rabbit stays still, sometimes the dog won't see the rabbit, at least that is my experience with mom's dog.  Of course, when the rabbit runs on the dog walk, it doesn't really matter because the dog is on a leash.

I don't really understand why someone would resist or run from a police officer, but obviously people do, I think that the police are so demonized by some activists and the press, that people feel an overpowering fight or flight urge to do either.  I like to have as little as possible to do with the police in general, I understand that.  But, they are necessary and, overall, benevolent.  Of course, having an encounter with them, there is the possibility of the inconvenience of staying overnight in the jail, but that is survivable, (most likely).  Running or fighting them and getting shot generally is not.

They saw that the kid had something in his hand, and assumed it was a gun.  I assume that is what happened.

The saying "Black lives matter." does imply that Black lives matter in some way more than other lives, including the lives of police officers, who have a hard job, and _are_ sometimes explicitly targeted in a way that is not evident in other cases.  Unless of course, you believe the activists more than the criminal justice system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2018 at 01:05
Quote The saying "Black lives matter." does imply that Black lives matter in some way more than other lives, including the lives of police officers, who have a hard job, and _are_ sometimes explicitly targeted in a way that is not evident in other cases. 

As I've written in other posts, many people, especially African Americans see the police as the enemy, and fear mistreatment by them, that could have been the reason that he ran.

ALL LIVES MATTER, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

You're telling me that police have a hard job?

From what I've read over the decades, I have very little faith in the American Justice system when police are exonerated because, after shooting a man in the back, they claim that they feared for their lives, and so on and on.

Quote I don't really understand why someone would resist or run from a police officer,

Of course you don't, you aren't a coloured person, are you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2018 at 02:50
And who sponsors this view that the police are the enemy and that young men should automatically fear treatment by them?  What conditions them into an automatic fight or flight response?  Who conditions them?  Activists who get a great deal of political mileage out of it, and reporters for whom "if it bleeds it leads."  They have a social agenda, and if they play-up the threat, the more mileage they can get out of it.  They already know the "answer," why would they ever bother to wait for the inquiry before shooting off their mouths?

Over reported is white on black violence, it does not fit the pervading liberal attitude, under reported is black on white violence, which is often justified by activists with the assertion that blacks are oppressed.

I don't understand why someone would resist or run, BECAUSE you're not going to get away.  You might get away in the short run, but you might also get shot or run out in traffic.

No, I am not colored, if I was colored I would have had activists hard working to get me into the "right" colleges out of high school.  I would have had affirmative action.  I would have people trying to convince to believe in the nonsense that society owes me four acres and a mule (a Reconstruction proposal, as in '60s and '70s, as in 1860s and 1870s).  If you are minority, you are told the you are special.  Unless of course, you are Asian or Jewish. Now of course, everybody is special in the eyes of their mother, the question is should some people be considered in the eyes of the law, in cases of hiring for government contracts, or choice positions in academia.

There was a black man being interviewed years ago on Booktalks, he had graduated from Harvard before civil rights legislation was implemented.  He said anyone (who was black) who graduated before that time, explicitly said that they had.  You see, affirmative action discounts a degree by minorities since that time.  It may not be fair, but it is nevertheless real.  It is assumed that the system took it easy in letting them into a competitive school, and it is assumed that the school took it easy on them, while they were there, even by some of the leaders of the black community.  And there are higher drop out rates for black and hispanic, because they're not prepared.  But, of course, they say that it is because society is bias, and as the "victim" we have to agree with them regardless of any other evidence.




Edited by franciscosan - 01 Apr 2018 at 02:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2018 at 08:06
And?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2018 at 16:28
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I just came upon an article at https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/why-are-white-men-stockpiling-guns/

Extract:
Quote Research suggests it's largely because they're anxious about their ability to protect their families, insecure about their place in the job market and beset by racial fears.

The article is, IMHO, very interesting and, if as scientifically based as claimed, sheds light on the psyche of many American men.

Worth reading.
They give you a villain if that's what you were looking for. None of the conclusions should be considered scientific frontier territory. Most of the property is owned or passed down to white people at this point it's about numbers and heritage but isn't considered here. 

Why doesn't the off set of population figure in here?
When people hear about the study that proves police shoot more whites, then the argument becomes statistical. It isn't people of a "type" like, young black men putting themselves into life situations that bring about contact with police, it's the need of police to murder black men.

In the article the most dangerous, murderous and suicidal people are the white men who work for a living.
That's a lot of people I know and it doesn't ring true. of course property owners have more to fear and are targeted more. Do you realize how many youtube videos depict black kids sucker punching elderly and disabled white people for fun? Knockout game they call it.






Edited by Vanuatu - 01 Apr 2018 at 19:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 01:57
It is a chickensh*t move, implemented by cowards.  No wonder that people don't trust groups of young black males on the street, in the subway.  The only people I have ever heard doing something similar is skinheads, neo-nazis.  That shows what level these social hoodlums are at.  btw, victims of the knock-out game rarely seem to be black.  Although the people who do suffer the most from black criminals, are blacks.  For that matter, I believe that whites suffer from black violence more than they do from white violent criminals.  People with chips on their shoulder, wanting to "get whitey."

Even so, things are slowly changing, probably for the better.  In fact, one thing that has changed is that blacks often feel free to live in the greater social community.  They are not isolated to the ghetto, segregated to small towns in the South.  But, that means they don't have the tightly knit communities that they used to have when they felt more pressure of segregation from whites.  They have less social cohesion, and those who have natural ability, often get out and join larger society, leaving behind those who are less gifted, including angry young men, who are told that everybody is putting them down, and therefore feel "justified" to do something like the knock out game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 06:30
Just out of interest, who kills the most police in the USA annually? Are they African Americans, Latinos or those of European heritage?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 10:53
Quote Haha US is paranoid but not UK? Please London has CCTV every third step.
I read that Brits don't speak to each other in public, some describe "FEAR" of having to speak to another person in public. 
Which appendage are You holding when someone's old Mum asks to"jump at the queue?" 
Britain does have 25% of the worlds CCTV. However they do not inspire paranoia. Most of us are oblivious to the existence of them, but they do come in handy when someone commits a crime. Actually, I have to be honest, it does lend a certain sense of security in some areas, although parts of my home town are still best avoided in the wee dark hours.
 
Britons do speak to one another, though we have a certain cultural reserve and of course our cosmopolitan society means we have foreigners around us who probably don't speak English anyway. Actually, in the last ten minutes in my locality, one lad was bragging about his manhood to all observers (and none too impressively) and earlier a local man wandered past singing at the top of his voice as he always does. One man asked bystanders why a premises wasn't open (in another ten minutes mate), and it isn't the first time I've helped an old lady across the road. Funnily enough I felt no inclination to gun any of them down - though that young lad came close - nor the urge to find a weapon, though I do note alarm in the news as shootings in London bring murder rates in the capital to the levels of 2003 with a total of 48 dead this morning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2018 at 01:32
To put it succinctly, only the guilty need fear the existence of things like security CCTV.

Yes, I know, it's a trite comment, but accurate IMHO.

As I stated earlier, I wish we had more CCTV and the technical backup that the UK has.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2018 at 23:06
guilty in whose eyes?

But, yes in general I agree, although I do wonder if monitoring becomes a substitute for morals.  Ethics is what you do when people are not watching (Gyge's ring in Plato's Republic).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2018 at 06:09
Quote guilty in whose eyes?

I agree, but there must be checks and balances.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 00:11
Quote Britain does have 25% of the worlds CCTV. However they do not inspire paranoia.

Isn't the fact that CCTV exists proof of paranoia? And here in US too the talk is about sacrificing privacy for safety. The fact that guns are outlawed in Briton only means it's much less often a murder weapon but there is no lacking for murder.
It was a comic's take on modern fears shared by people and it's funny bc there is more to fear with more information, more interaction with devices less human contact. Machines are easier.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 01:01
Quote Isn't the fact that CCTV exists proof of paranoia?

Nope. I'd say more like proactive policing, traffic control etc.

Media reports have shown clearly that the CCTV system in the UK is a very handy tool-remember the little 3yr old boy taken and killed by two (about) 10yr olds-caught on CCTV.

And millions of people in the UK are subject to the cameras view daily-can't hear many complaints, can you?
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 01:20
If the only way to feel safe is by watching everyone in public then its a paranoid society. Less the erroneous paranoia but more the suspicion before the fact. It's the idea of mistrust preceding reason that pegs it as paranoid. There is a subtlety in the meaning of the word.

I don't say anyone should complain. I just said it's paranoid. 

Now would you say that all the paranoia or fear? What do you call it?- doesn't translate into awkward social experiences?
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 01:37
No, it's a fact of life in our modern world.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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