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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2018 at 02:48
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

from https://nypost.com/2018/03/01/cops-fire-65-shots-in-15-seconds-at-murder-suspect/

Quote Authorities in San Francisco released body camera videos on Tuesday of a dramatic shootout in which police officers fired their weapons at least 65 times in 15 seconds at a murder suspect.

and from the same article

Quote “Nobody was struck by gunfire during this incident. The evidence in the case so far indicates Armstrong fired two rounds from a weapon, and that seven officers fired 65 rounds from their department-issued weapons,” SFPD Commander Greg McEachern told KTVU.

65 shots and no-one was hit.

A miracle that an innocent wasn't killed by the police in this incident.
That's some selective quoting!
Suspect killed two people the day before, cops track him down in 24 hours.
Suspect is inside an Recreational Vehicle, shoots from inside at police, 65 shots 15 seconds, no one hurt, suspect in custody.
What is your problem?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2018 at 02:54
James Comey's FBI had dozens of complaints about the kid killer in Florida.
Holding guns on people, threatening to kill his mother among others.

The FBI is a joke, laughable (Collusion Ouch lol) and legally the cops could have taken his guns bc holding a gun and threatening to kill is "Assault By Means" he could have been arrested on any one of those occasions.
If you want to blame some individuals beside JR LOCO, it was Comey then Mueller's FBI.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2018 at 04:52
Quote
That's some selective quoting!
Suspect killed two people the day before, cops track him down in 24 hours.
Suspect is inside an Recreational Vehicle, shoots from inside at police, 65 shots 15 seconds, no one hurt, suspect in custody.
What is your problem?

1. Good work by the police.

2. Two shots fired by offender, 65 fired by police. Why? Didn't anyone have the skill set to shoot him?

3. Were the police not in a position to shield themselves from the two shots he fired?

4. In the US you have a crime/felony usually called "Reckless Endangerment" or something similar. The police have done just that.

Because a person has been alleged to have killed someone, is that justification for police to extra-judicial action by killing him?

It seems that the attitude in the USA is "If in doubt-shoot to kill" which is OK if someone's life is in immediate danger, but......

Are police not taught that to kill someone is the absolute last resort?

Human life is sacrosanct. It should only be taken as a last resort after all other options have been considered, implemented and exhausted.

I recognise and accept that American people have been raised with, and have a different view to mine.




Edited by toyomotor - 03 Mar 2018 at 04:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2018 at 09:14
From http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-trump-gun-control-rights-20180301-story.html 

Quote Marjory Stoneman Douglas High students returned this week to a campus to be remembered forever as the site where 17 students and teachers died. But will that shooting spree also be memorialised as the catalyst for effective gun control action in Washington, Illinois and elsewhere? Is this the moment when vocal high school students inspire their generation to demand change — and refuse to back down or lose heart?

We hope so. That hope is tinted by reality: Previously, Americans’ anger over such shootings burned hot but fizzled. Lawmakers play for time and eventually bury gun-control proposals.

This time could be different. Why so? Because as we write:

  • Illinois lawmakers have passed or are poised to pass a series of measures, many of which we support, to tighten gun laws. Those include a ban on bump stocks that turn semi-automatic rifles into machine gun-style weapons and a limit on high-capacity magazine clips.
  • President Donald Trump is jawboning Congress to send him "one terrific bill" on gun safety, including stronger background checks and restrictions based on age and mental health.
  • Walmart, the nation’s largest retailer, and Dick's Sporting Goods no longer will sell guns to people under 21. Both also are imposing new restrictions on ammunition sales. Company execs didn’t need a new law. They needed this: "When we saw what the kids were going through and the grief of the parents and the kids who were killed in Parkland, we felt we needed to do something," Dick’s Chairman and CEO Ed Stack told ABC News. Who’s next?
  • Several major corporations, including MetLife, Hertz and Delta Air Lines, have cut ties with the National Rifle Association.
  • Students plan demonstrations and marches in Washington and across the nation.

Today, arguably more than ever, Americans understand that gun violence is a public health epidemic killing innocent people, just the way a virus does.

This threat demands an urgent national response. Congress, start by assembling public health experts into a Manhattan Project-style effort to pinpoint the best ways to curtail this epidemic. Why isn’t there more research into possible solutions? One reason, The Atlantic reports, is a 1996 Congressional amendment that barred the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention from using money to “advocate or promote gun control.” The amendment, sponsored by the late GOP Rep. Jay Dickey of Arkansas, has exerted a chilling effect for decades.

Six years ago, Dickey, by then retired from Congress, co-authored a Washington Post op-ed that revealed a change of heart. The U.S. government was spending $240 million a year on traffic safety research but almost nothing on firearms safety research, the authors wrote: “Most politicians fear talking about guns almost as much as they would being confronted by one, but these fears are senseless. We must learn what we can do to save lives. It is like the answer to the question ‘When is the best time to plant a tree?’ The best time to start was 20 years ago; the second-best time is now.”

That “now” was in 2012. Nothing happened. How about this now?

I decided to post this article in full, because, for the first time in my life, it seems that Gun Control may be getting public traction.

Congratulations to the individuals and corporations who have made a stand, some in the face of threats by state governments and others.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2018 at 13:47
The link has video, should answer your questions.
Did you see the video At the link you posted? 



Edited by Vanuatu - 03 Mar 2018 at 14:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 22:09
The video is too chaotic for me to be able to tell anything about it.  But then again, I am not questioning what the San Francisco Police did.  I think some people have a mistaken sense that the response should be fair and proportional.  They might not think it is fair that the perpetrator shot two shots and the police shot 65 shots.  That number "seems" excessive.  Shouldn't they have only shot 10 shots in response?  Why weren't they counting to see how many the other police were shooting?  Would 20 shots have been excessive?  And what a waste.  If they were really good, it would be like a sniper, "one shot, one kill."  I mean, isn't that the biggest mistake they made?  They should have killed the guy, instead of just rattling him into surrendering.  If i was the perp, I would be tempted to demand a do-over, and see if they could get it right the second time and kill me.Dead
Of course, we can be concerned where all those bullets went.  But maybe they had a good background towards which they were shooting.  Nobody was reported hurt, is that by chance? or design? or a little bit of both?
We should feel thankful for the guy that the police "missed" and that he will have to go through a trial, and if found guilty will assume the penalty.  


Edited by franciscosan - 04 Mar 2018 at 22:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 23:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2018 at 03:06
In regard to firearms, there is a great cultural divide between our two countries.

Australian police didn't carry firearms, as a rule, until about the 1980's. In Tasmania, we only started carrying firearms full time in the very late 1990's. BTW, there has not been a Tasmanian Police Officer shot and killed on duty since 1923.

In major Australian capital cities, it's now a very different situation. Not only are police armed 24/7 but in the larger cities they have full time SWAT teams on duty 24/7. And police have been shot or stabbed and killed while on duty.

We all know the US history of the Wild West, where the gun was king. The attitude still lingers for some people and they feel naked without their weapons.

As an ex police officer, I feel very uneasy when I see video footage of American police shooting people in the back while they're running away, or shooting people who have committed minor crime and are possibly resisting arrest. It comes across as though the police feel an entitlement to shoot and kill anyone who disobeys them.

But, although there now, at last, seems to be a current of dis-satisfaction with the US Gun Laws, I think that whatever steps the US government takes to eradicate the flow of assault type weapons to civilians, it will never stop their use, it's too late.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2018 at 23:44
Quote But, although there now, at last, seems to be a current of dis-satisfaction with the US Gun Laws, I think that whatever steps the US government takes to eradicate the flow of assault type weapons to civilians, it will never stop their use, it's too late.

It's really too late. The Genie doesn't go back in.
No doubt individuals are spinning out, wanting power. An NFL player made a comment like, people really just need to be "somewhat spiritual." That lack of spirituality is significant and depraved, not going away either. So the man will just get better at digging out those predilections and it will mean less freedom for all of us. 

It's a confluence of inspiration and deleterious brain effects, not least of which being created in social media and playing out like jr loco tee vee. If anyone ever cried for help, it was this poor bastard. 
People pretending to be Top Cops should have better systems in place. The police department in Flori-duh, deviated from the EMT active shooter protocol. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2018 at 01:34
I'll watch with interest to see if the anti-gun lobby grows legs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2018 at 13:19
I do note that a general amnesty for guns in Australia has netted 57,000 guns turned in to the Police. In Britain we had a similar initiative some years back when the law became tougher , amounting to around 30,000 if I remember right - though many of these had been legally held weapons before the law made gun ownership a little too onerous.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2018 at 00:29
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

I do note that a general amnesty for guns in Australia has netted 57,000 guns turned in to the Police. In Britain we had a similar initiative some years back when the law became tougher , amounting to around 30,000 if I remember right - though many of these had been legally held weapons before the law made gun ownership a little too onerous.

Yes, that's right. 

Like Australia, England's "Bobbies" didn't carry firearms until the latter half of last century.

In Australia, we have annual amnesties, for those people who may have "forgotten" or who had firearms legally, but had no further use for them. Every year there are surprises, such as the Anti-Tank rocket launcher handed in last month.




Edited by toyomotor - 12 Mar 2018 at 00:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2018 at 14:58
Hi caldrail,
Oh yes amnesty. When non-criminals turn in their guns. No compensation, no guns not here in the US.

toyomotor, don't you own a personal firearm?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 00:38
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Hi caldrail,
Oh yes amnesty. When non-criminals turn in their guns. No compensation, no guns not here in the US.

toyomotor, don't you own a personal firearm?

1. Of course you're right. But it also reduces the number of firearms available to be stolen by criminals. The owners of firearms handed under the General Amnesty were financially compensated. And of course there are still unlawful firearms out there in the community, but when they're found by police, the owners are dealt with pretty harshly.

2. Nope. When I was working, I had an issued firearm, but that was handed back when I retired.

As I've written previously, there's a whole different culture here compared to the US (and some other countries) in relation to firearms.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2018 at 00:05
So, toyomotor, do you feel that if an officer has a firearm, they will be inclined to use it?  instead of seeking other methods of resolution, that is.  Of course, there are other weapons the officer could possibly use, if needed.  The problem seems to be, if all one thinks of is the hammer, so to speak, then everything looks like a nail.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2018 at 00:27
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

So, toyomotor, do you feel that if an officer has a firearm, they will be inclined to use it?  instead of seeking other methods of resolution, that is.  Of course, there are other weapons the officer could possibly use, if needed.  The problem seems to be, if all one thinks of is the hammer, so to speak, then everything looks like a nail.

1. No. But living in the US, it could be expected that a police officer would be confronted by an armed felon at any time, and that the felon may be inclined to kill a police officer.

2. I support the users of Tasers or Mace as a response, where possible, but I also recognise that some people, especially if they're high on drugs, are impervious to those measures.

I don't criticise the police for using their firearms in the majority of cases, but when a person is clearly running away, or is simply disobedient, use of lethal force is not appropriate.

In the case I referred to, 56 shots were fired, far too many. It should have only taken a couple of shots to immobilise the felon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2018 at 14:26

Quote In the case I referred to, 56 shots were fired, far too many. It should have only taken a couple of shots to immobilise the felon.

Not if he is hiding in an RV. Also, could have been another shooter in the RV. Finally the suspect opens fire on the police. What was he expecting? Suicide by Cop?


Edited by Vanuatu - 13 Mar 2018 at 14:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2018 at 01:06
Quote
 What was he expecting? Suicide by Cop?

It's not exactly unheard of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2018 at 12:27
Quote There is no defense against deranged persons.  Suicide bombers blowing up 50 people every other day is IMO derangement just as much as a lunatic opening fire on a political gathering in Arizona or a student at a school in Europe.
Maybe so, but the idea that an entire countries population feels compelled to arm themselves because they are afraid of the guns in the hands of others who are not necessarily lunatic but are either malignant or uncaring enough to be prepared to use armed force to threaten or harm others, then we have a society that outsiders would very likely consider qualifying for lunatic condition.

Quote Again, if those who are outraged can't deal with it, too bad.  A state where only the police have arms is a police state.
Or emasculated. The American love of firearms is a psychological appendage to their self esteem, as your post indicates.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2018 at 15:58
Captain Vancouver, at the OP, asked in part
Quote Why is it, do you at AE suppose, that guns and gun crimes are accepted in the cavalier fashion that they are in the US, in comparison to many other countries? Indeed in some jurisdictions in the US, gun ownership seems to be increasing, and minimal gun laws are being challenged. What sociological forces are at work in a society that is arming itself to the degree that is the case in the US today?

1. My best guess is the historical carriage of guns, a la the Wild West syndrome is now a part of the American DNA. American books, movies and so on portray the killing of a human being by another as a glorious thing to do, more often than not, if done by law enforcement. What scares me a bit about the American movies/TV programs, is that law enforcement officers who gun down suspects, sometimes unarmed, are never shown having to account for their actions, and worse still, in real life one often reads of police involved in killing a person, under what we in Britain and Australia view as unjustified circumstances, are exonerated.

2. IMHO, the USA is being subjected to a circular reaction to gun deaths. A popular theme is that if people are not armed, then only the crooks will have guns-if they have them, so should we. An example of this, and very topical, is President Trump's bright idea to arm school teachers in order to deter the frequent mass shootings at schools. Already there have been examples of untrained, or improperly trained school teachers accidentally discharging their weapons in school rooms.

3.In some black neighbourhoods, the community regard the police as the enemy, based on the number of dubious killings of black people by police. The communities in question have armed themselves for their own protection now, against the police. Here, another circular reaction. Police are now authorised to acquire military style equipment like armoured cars, assault rifles and grenades. They, the police, are isolating themselves from their communities more and more. Of course this doesn't refer to all police forces in the US.
Unfortunately, the position vis-a-vis the anti police communities has been allowed to fester for far too long and to now redress that, will take a lot of work by police over probably decades.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the British "Bobbies", who until comparatively recently, didn't carry firearms at all, and now firearms are still restricted to those properly trained in their use, and in special circumstances. The Bobbies are arguably the most respected police in the world. They are a part of the community and are regarded as such by the population. 

I don't see any worthwhile change in the USA in my lifetime.




Edited by toyomotor - 04 Apr 2018 at 06:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2018 at 16:17
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

The video is too chaotic for me to be able to tell anything about it.  But then again, I am not questioning what the San Francisco Police did.  I think some people have a mistaken sense that the response should be fair and proportional.  They might not think it is fair that the perpetrator shot two shots and the police shot 65 shots.  That number "seems" excessive.  Shouldn't they have only shot 10 shots in response?  Why weren't they counting to see how many the other police were shooting?  Would 20 shots have been excessive?  And what a waste.  If they were really good, it would be like a sniper, "one shot, one kill."  I mean, isn't that the biggest mistake they made?  They should have killed the guy, instead of just rattling him into surrendering.  If i was the perp, I would be tempted to demand a do-over, and see if they could get it right the second time and kill me.Dead
Of course, we can be concerned where all those bullets went.  But maybe they had a good background towards which they were shooting.  Nobody was reported hurt, is that by chance? or design? or a little bit of both?
We should feel thankful for the guy that the police "missed" and that he will have to go through a trial, and if found guilty will assume the penalty.  

To briefly respond to this post-
There is a mentality difference nine miles wide between what, say, British and Australian police do in response to a firearm offence, compared to the US.

In the former, efforts would have been made to implement what we call ICE-that is, Isolate, Contain and Evacuate. Isolate the scene by road blocks, public warnings etc; Contain the offender(of course, where possible) to a manageable area, and Evacuate innocents wwho live/work close to the scene. Then efforts would have been made to talk the offender down.

I know, it doesn't always work that way, but that's what we aim for, lethal force is the last resort, and we can only use it if, then and there, someones life is in danger. The fact that an offender shot and killed someone yesterday or the day before does not mean a license to automatically kill them.

We have very stringent Rules of Engagement. Shooting a fleeing felon in the back is not considered a "good kill"-phraseology by US police on TV. A murder charge would possibly have followed.

All in all, US police have attracted so much bad publicity over, for example, black killings and no-one charged, that I believe that the situation will get worse in relation to killings of and by the police.

Read any day's On-Line version of the Chigago Tribune to get a gist of what I'm talking about.






Edited by toyomotor - 15 Mar 2018 at 16:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2018 at 02:06
Once upon a time the media was working class, kids got paper routes, and advanced into writing sidelines, eventually becoming a staff reporter.  It was not believed that a college degree was necessary for becoming a reporter, it was also not believed that a college degree was necessary for anything above unskilled labor.
There was a certain conservatism to the working class, not in the sense of democrats or republicans, but as far as not putting up with official bullsh*t of the powers that be.  Now however, the media is all college educated, and they are part of the bullsh*t of the powers that be.  It is in the best interests of liberals to portray things as worse than they are.  Because then that calls for a liberal solution of more government.  Reagan joked that the most terrible thing one could hear was, "I'm from the government, and I am hear to help."
Point is, the media is prone towards exaggerating true emergencies, and yelling fire where there is none.  They are not necessarily interested in solution, although if one somehow materializes, they are sure to take credit for creating the atmosphere.  They claim to be for the little guy, but for them that means minorities that are college educated and professional like themselves.  They are out of touch with the blue color workers, who are increasingly out of work these days.  They believe in "progress" but progress towards what, they are a little vague.
My point is, is that your view of America, is skewed by what the media reports, a media that is fundamentally out of touch with the American public.  Something that allowed someone like Trump get elected.  Now, I don't like Trump, and I think that he is bad for the country (and those are and should be two different things), on the other hand, if he did somethings well, I am not sure the media would say so.  That is why there is a profound distrust of the media these days, and of course the media (in so far as it monolithic) is not interested in admitting its bias.  There are exceptions to the rule, but in general the media is slanted, not consciously, but nonetheless so.

Have you ever noticed how many problems America seems to have (seems) regarding race relations?  Have you ever heard about Russia's race relations problems, you know it has to be there, to a greater extent than the US.  I mean, that is why they are bullying Ukraine, Georgia, the Baltic States, because they can.  The United States obsesses about it.  RT (Russia Today) also obsesses about it, the American problem, not the Russian problem.  America's race relations problem is there, but so is any countries.  It is getting better and has been getting better for, say, World War II.  But if, say, minorities, perceiving things as worse than they are, they are liable to be angry.  That often gets them killed, but it also presents a great opportunity for liberals to winge and sympathize with them, and who knows, even present themselves as "the hero."  So when you see the American media pushing on something, understand what is said, but also is not said at the time.  Not all lies are lies of admission.

I find it interesting that the last President of the United States was from Chicago.  Some people from the country look upon big cities as cess pools of crime.  NY, DC, Chicago, the gangs of LA, Detroit, Pittsburgh is the pits.  Look at DC and the history of Marion Berry, Detroit has had some very corrupt politicians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2018 at 02:53
Every morning I read a lot of on-line versions of American newspapers, from one end of the country to the other. Like most people, this is the only way I can get a view of what's going on in the world.

I randomly selected the newspapers that I read on-line, and I have no way of knowing whether they espouse right wing or left wing views, whether the owners and editors voted Republican or Democrat, or what might taint their views on life in the US.

I've written in the past that I don't believe that all of the media reports I read are "false facts" or misrepresentations.

As all of this relates to guns in the US, the facts are undeniable, they pose a great problem for the US community, and at this stage, there appears very little that the US Federal Government can or wants to do about it.

Of course I realise that the media "hypes up" stories, but even accounting for that, there is a major gun problem in the US.

Tell me I'm wrong, and then prove it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2018 at 22:40
Some people seem to be notoriously immune to reports of Trump's antics.  That is partially because they feel that the information is not so much news, as it is ammunition for attacking Trump, etc.  This has been painted as "fake news" which it is not, at least not the way they mean fake news as in false facts.  But it is "fake news" in the sense that it is often not so much, news, as it is propaganda or that which propagates 'the faith.'  There are misrepresentations, misrepresentations in statistics.  As someone once said, "there are lies, damn lies and statistics."  In order to properly understand a statistic and what it is saying, one must understand how it was figured out.  The methodology.  If a study said that medicine x is correlated with depression, it helps to know how big the survey was, and how did they get that assessment.  A reported statistic rarely is reporting how the statistic was achieved.  As one study showed, "85 % of statistics are made up";)  No not really, "figures don't lie, but liars figure."

toyomotor, the problem with the media is that it is the whole system that generally has a lean to the left.  There are a few exceptions, talk radio, news columnists, Fox News although instead of enlarging one's perspective, they tend to narrow it.  Wall Street Journal, esp. the columnists is all right.  Krauthammer and David Brooks are columnist who I particularly like.  Dinesh D'Souza is okay.  Good points but tends to be a little "hurray for our side."  Older columnists that are pretty much retired are Thomas Sowell, Shelby Steele.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2018 at 02:16
How about we leave Donald Trump out of this. He inherited the problem, as did many presidents before him. Had Gun Control been enacted, say, in the 1920's, it may have been easier to do then with the memories of WW1 still fresh in everyone's minds.

As for the rest of your post, I have no idea what you're talking about. Fake news doesn't really come into it, mass shootings are happening, and more frequently with each passing year.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2018 at 13:58
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Maybe so, but the idea that an entire countries population feels compelled to arm themselves because they are afraid of the guns in the hands of others who are not necessarily lunatic but are either malignant or uncaring enough to be prepared to use armed force to threaten or harm others, then we have a society that outsiders would very likely consider qualifying for lunatic condition.


Haha US is paranoid but not UK? Please London has CCTV every third step.
I read that Brits don't speak to each other in public, some describe "FEAR" of having to speak to another person in public. 
Which appendage are You holding when someone's old Mum asks to"jump at the queue?" 

Quote Again, if those who are outraged can't deal with it, too bad.  A state where only the police have arms is a police state.
Or emasculated. The American love of firearms is a psychological appendage to their self esteem, as your post indicates.
[/QUOTE]
Right, because mass mob drinking and vomiting your just_ ate_ take_ away at the curbstone is so Macho. Wink
Kidding!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2018 at 23:17
Quote Haha US is paranoid but not UK? Please London has CCTV every third step.

Yes, and I wish every town in Australia had the same thing. It's not about fear, it's about tracking crooks, solving crime, traffic management and much much more.

Quote I read that Brits don't speak to each other in public, some describe "FEAR" of having to speak to another person in public.

Someone on this forum has pointed out to me, more than once, that you can't believe all that you read.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2018 at 00:07
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote Haha US is paranoid but not UK? Please London has CCTV every third step.

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Yes, and I wish every town in Australia had the same thing. It's not about fear, it's about tracking crooks, solving crime, traffic management and much much more.

I wrote -Paranoid- and I didn't dream it up in my neurosis. Ask the Brit shrinks.


Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

[quote]I read that Brits don't speak to each other in public, some describe "FEAR" of having to speak to another person in public.

[QUOTE]Someone on this forum has pointed out to me, more than once, that you can't believe all that you read.
Quite, except I didn't JUST read it. You can read it too. 
It's a multi part British TV Show called "Very British Problems" it is comedy but seriously the docu style format plainly shows Brits laughing at their own ACTUAL behavior. 




Edited by Vanuatu - 18 Mar 2018 at 03:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2018 at 10:30
At this stage in the conversation, please allow me to say this;

I'm critical of the lack of Gun Control in the US, and the manner in which they have been used by police, in some cases. There should be no doubt about that.

Having said that, I think if I lived in the USA, I would arm myself for self defence.

Now, tear me apart. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2018 at 02:50
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

At this stage in the conversation, please allow me to say this;

I'm critical of the lack of Gun Control in the US, and the manner in which they have been used by police, in some cases. There should be no doubt about that.

Having said that, I think if I lived in the USA, I would arm myself for self defence.

Now, tear me apart. Tongue
Not possible to have an appropriate response to terror, it's been normalized. And if you really dwell on it, might become the next shooter. I'd want to go down fighting, don't have a gun but I do carry pepper spray. Legally.

Anxiety destroys scale, and suffering makes us lose perspective. -Saul Bellow
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