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Guns in the US

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 02:45
This was posted by Northman several years ago-just a bit of fun-not to be taken too seriously.

Quote Just for fun - and afterthought...  Smile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTpCUAK4ypA



You might have a laugh or two over this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 03:58
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

This was posted by Northman several years ago-just a bit of fun-not to be taken too seriously.

Quote Just for fun - and afterthought...  Smile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTpCUAK4ypA



You might have a laugh or two over this.
Yea he is funny. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 09:24
Little by little, more and more businesses are distancing themselves from the Pro Gun lobby.

Businesses are refusing to stock certain weapons, at least one finance business will refuse finance to gun manufacturers and dealers, and some communities are banning certain weapons.

From a tiny acorn, a mighty oak may grow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2018 at 03:35
I believe that it is Colt that is having problems with bankruptcy.  Gunmakers have a problem, a bit of their own making, during Obama there was a concern that he 'might take their guns away,' which meant that gun-owners went on a bit of a spree.  That means that the gun market is saturated, and people are not so much buying new guns (1) because they already have them (2) because others already have them and so thus stuff can be gotten through the secondary market.  That means that gunmakers have a bit of a problem selling new stuff, again because the market is saturated.

We should remember that the word "guns" is a bit of slang, they should be called firearms or weapons, or revolver, or semi-automatic or whatever it is specifically.  In the military, a "gun" is a howitzer or cannon.  There is a little ditty in the military which if you call your weapon 'a gun,' you will have to march around grabbing your crouch, singing "this is is my weapon (on you shoulder as you march), this is my gun (grabbing crouch). this is for fighting, this is for fun."  Having taken hunter's safety several times as a kid in Boy Scouts, it is important there too, to understand what a firearm is and treat it with a healthy respect (that is, if you are going to deal with them, which I don't).  Part of that respect is knowing what they are for, and knowing what they are not for.  They are for hunting, target shooting, and in the very rare cases, personal defense.  It is important to understand that a firearm is not a projection of one's manhood, and in the case of personal defense most cases don't result in bloodshed.  They usually involve hoodlums breaking into a house, and the owner announcing in the dark that, "I have a gun, and I am afraid for my life (or afraid for me and my family), leave now, or I will use it."  At which point the juvenile delinquents will make a quick exit.  The police may or may not be informed after the fact, in other words, such a use for personal defense will not necessarily be recorded.

It is not legal to shoot someone, even if they are in your house, in order to protect your property.  After a home shooting, when the police ask, "were you trying to kill them or were you trying to wound them."  That is a trick question.  The correct answer is, "I was afraid for me and my family, I was trying to stop them."

btw, military development of firearms, depends in the West on civilian development, or government subsidies.  You might not like firearms, but in the case of a war or lesser military action, the weapons have to come from somewhere.  Technology does not just develop on its own.  You might like to get rid of arms dealers, but you also might like to get rid of Boko Haram or Kim Jon Un. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2018 at 06:05
Quote  "I have a gun, and I am afraid for my life (or afraid for me and my family), leave now, or I will use it."

At which point the crook says, "Yeah, so have I sucker, it's a Mach 10."

What now?Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 00:33
After their house and car, probably the next most valuable thing a family has is their computer and their TV, but even then household electronics are obsolete by the time you buy them.
  So, someone is going to do a robbery with a $1500 firearm (Mac-10, Mach 10 is ten times the speed of sound) for a few hundred dollars worth of stuff?  Which will probably have to be fenced for a fraction of its retail value?  So they are going to risk jail and having a $1500 firearm away for the sake of maybe, $400 worth of junk?  Probably not.  Break-ins are most likely hoodlums, "kids" who are out for thrills and randomly hitting houses, looking for easy pickings, not looking for resistance or pushback.

A computer or smartphone might be very valuable, to someone who can access that, but that is not your garden variety home intruder.  And you probably can't guarantee that there will be important information on the computer or smartphone, before checking it out.  Ironically, if someone has firearms, they have something valuable to steal.  Something that they may hope to prevent a robbery, may be the reason for the robbery in the first place, but if you are hoodlum, you want to go in when nobody is there, you especially want to go in when nobody is there.

One kind of crime that you generally don't hear about in the US is home intrusion.  Hoodlums going in, holding a family hostage in exchange for ransom, or having a banker unlock the bank.  Usually when you have a 'home intrusion' it is someone who knows the family, knows they won't get any resistance, and will probably kill the family in the end to cover their tracks.

btw, 1/3 of black households in Colorado have a firearm.  Personally, considering the American _past_ history of lynching, I don't blame them.  (And blacks in Colorado do not commit gun-crimes any more than their percentage of the population, (probably less)).  Blacks have a stereotype of being violent, gun-toting, there may be some basis for that in areas of Chicago, or Washington DC, but that is not true of Colorado, and probably a lot of the US.  

Mac-10, with the hyphen. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2018 at 21:53
This problem of identifying law breakers with gun ownership is inherently flawed. Not everyone wants the gun but maybe the trauma resulting from being a victim of crime or storing valuables makes a weapon necessary.
I would not down play the effect of the "hoodlum." Especially when he/she is hepped up on goofballs.
Elderly people pay a terrible price with young criminals, there is very little empathy or self control in that group.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 2018 at 09:57
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

This problem of identifying law breakers with gun ownership is inherently flawed. Not everyone wants the gun but maybe the trauma resulting from being a victim of crime or storing valuables makes a weapon necessary.
I would not down play the effect of the "hoodlum." Especially when he/she is hepped up on goofballs.
Elderly people pay a terrible price with young criminals, there is very little empathy or self control in that group.

I agree. People who are "clean skins" may lawfully buy a firearm, and later, due to any number of circumstances, turn into crooks. The most obvious would be domestic murder.

I would also venture to say that not only the elderly suffer as the result of "hoodlum" activity, all Americans suffer when it is not safe for them to go about their lawful business without fear of becoming a victim of firearm related violence.

I also agree with the concept of householder fear driving the purchase of guns. I don't like it, but if I lived in the USA, I'd err on the side of caution and arm myself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2018 at 05:34
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

This problem of identifying law breakers with gun ownership is inherently flawed. Not everyone wants the gun but maybe the trauma resulting from being a victim of crime or storing valuables makes a weapon necessary.
I would not down play the effect of the "hoodlum." Especially when he/she is hepped up on goofballs.
Elderly people pay a terrible price with young criminals, there is very little empathy or self control in that group.

I agree. People who are "clean skins" may lawfully buy a firearm, and later, due to any number of circumstances, turn into crooks. The most obvious would be domestic murder.

I would also venture to say that not only the elderly suffer as the result of "hoodlum" activity, all Americans suffer when it is not safe for them to go about their lawful business without fear of becoming a victim of firearm related violence.

I also agree with the concept of householder fear driving the purchase of guns. I don't like it, but if I lived in the USA, I'd err on the side of caution and arm myself.
In the US crimes against the elderly by youths has increased significantly in the past 5 years. Every slime ball out there seems to target older people these days, break ins, financial scams and abuse by their families. Even murder and terrible assaults are being committed by younger and younger criminals all over the world. Good people have to stand up to these psychos. 
It's true toyomotor, owning property or running a business requires personal protection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2018 at 06:35
If only the US government could stop the flow of military grade firearms to the public, that would be a good start. But as I've lamented in the past, I think it's now much too late.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2018 at 15:30
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

If only the US government could stop the flow of military grade firearms to the public, that would be a good start. But as I've lamented in the past, I think it's now much too late.
Obama does have his hand in this mess too. Cronyism and the absurd belief that gun charges should just go away for teens whose LIVES MATTER. Florida and other states stopped doing real police work, they were being asked to shrink heads. I know that communication is important in police work. I have seen some cops who are really good at connecting with people, almost miraculous! Critical connections can diffuse a volatile situation remarkably well. However, the idea of not enforcing the law because a particular group of teenagers are exempt, is beyond the pale.

In 2013, the year before Cruz entered high school, the Broward County school system rewrote its discipline policy to make it much more difficult for administrators to suspend or expel problem students, or for campus police to arrest them for misdemeanors– including some of the crimes Cruz allegedly committed in the years and months leading up to the deadly Feb. 14 shooting at his Fort Lauderdale-area school.

The new policy resulted from an Obama administration effort begun in 2011 to keep students in school and improve racial outcomes (timeline here), and came against a backdrop of other efforts to rein in perceived excesses in "zero tolerance" discipline policies, 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2018 at 23:23
Quote In 2013, the year before Cruz entered high school, the Broward County school system rewrote its discipline policy to make it much more difficult for administrators to suspend or expel problem students, or for campus police to arrest them for misdemeanors– including some of the crimes Cruz allegedly committed in the years and months leading up to the deadly Feb. 14 shooting at his Fort Lauderdale-area school.

PC gone mad!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2018 at 00:54
This is not about Obama or Trump or Clinton. This is about a system that's been out of control forever. I'm not saying that the original migrants to the US should have done something about firearms, that would be stupid, but as the end of the 19th Century approached one would have thought that more consideration could have been given to the future, vis a vis gun ownership.

But it wasn't, no use crying over spilt milk, and it's now too late to retrieve the situation. So be it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2018 at 04:50
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

This is not about Obama or Trump or Clinton. This is about a system that's been out of control forever. I'm not saying that the original migrants to the US should have done something about firearms, that would be stupid, but as the end of the 19th Century approached one would have thought that more consideration could have been given to the future, vis a vis gun ownership.

But it wasn't, no use crying over spilt milk, and it's now too late to retrieve the situation. So be it.
Exactly forever, since 1307 and US gun manufacturers have always provided US weapons for the military.
The gun lobby and NRA are virtually part of the military.
The 'meltdown' in Australia was effective obviously though trends in gun crime were down before that mass shooting in 1995. That would not be feasible in the US. Too many guns, could never buy them all back for a meltdown the numbers are dizzying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2018 at 05:19
Quote The 'meltdown' in Australia was effective obviously though trends in gun crime were down before that mass shooting in 1995. 

Not so.

Firearm related crimes remained fairly stagnant during the early 1990's, and were a fairly common occurrence in the large mainland cities of Melbourne and Sydney.

For some unknown reason, Victoria Police has the reputation of having shot more offenders than the rest of the states combined, and the criminals are not slow to kill police either.

1. There were many firearms in the community, sporting as well as defensive, such as pistols;
2. Australians were aghast at what happened at Port Arthur, although there had been a couple of mass shootings in Victoria;
3. Port Arthur was the catalyst for the Firearm Amnesty, and it was a great success.
4. Obviously Australia had far less guns out there, and we've never permitted the sale/purchase of military grade rapid fire weapons. (In fact, a fledgling company manufacturing a fairly revolutionary firearm for world markets was brought out by the government, and closed.)
5. The real elephant in the room was/is attitude. Australians simply don't have the same attitude to firearms as do Americans.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2018 at 16:19
Quote " The real elephant in the room was/is attitude. Australians simply don't have the same attitude to firearms as do Americans."

toyomotor, can you be more specific? 

I agree there are elements of attitude in the US that may exceed the levels in Australia but you are not free of murders and psychos, obviously. The name Chopper comes to mind...




Edited by Vanuatu - 25 Apr 2018 at 16:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2018 at 16:44
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Quote " The real elephant in the room was/is attitude. Australians simply don't have the same attitude to firearms as do Americans."

toyomotor, can you be more specific? 

I agree there are elements of attitude in the US that may exceed the levels in Australia but you are not free of murders and psychos, obviously. The name Chopper comes to mind...



To clarify, of course we have firearms related crime in Australia, but "Chopper" was a thug and standover man who, while serving a prison sentence, cut his ears off, that's why he was called Chopper.

What I was referring to is that in the US, probably because of the Second Amendment, many, if not most, citizens regard gun ownership as a right, where in Australia it's regarded as a privilege which can be revoked at any time.

We don't have the same history with firearms as the US does.

Nothing more, nothing less.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2018 at 17:12
Clear as a bell. So true for Europe also, a modern armed citizenry hasn't been part of the gestalt and so it seems suicidal.
During the Revolution Spain and France provided weapons and money, troops and great leaders who wanted to stomp Britain good. We have a statue to Lafayette where we live and I always remember thinking that Europe was a partner to the Continental Army in in creating this wild west, FREEDOM that just hadn't existed before. 
Trump must have been pulled aside when he mocked the congress for being afraid of the NRA, their tentacles go back to the very beginning. How does all that influence just unravel? 


Forced to rely on foreign weapons during the war, President George Washington wanted to ensure that the new republic had its own arms industry. Inspired by European practice, he and his successors built public arsenals for the production of firearms in Springfield and Harper’s Ferry. They also began doling out lucrative arms contracts to private manufacturers such as Simeon North, the first official U.S. pistol maker, and Eli Whitney, inventor of the cotton gin.

The government provided crucial startup funds, steady contracts, tariffs against foreign manufactures, robust patent laws, and patterns, tools and know-how from federal arsenals.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2018 at 17:42

George Washington chose the little town of Springfield as the site for the Springfield Armory (arsenal) because it was located on the Connecticut River above the waterfall in Enfield, Connecticut, which meant that it was protected from British warships. Coming in from the Atlantic, up the Connecticut River, they couldn't navigate past the waterfall. The Armory site was also located on high ground, which made it easier to defend. Being the site of the Armory eventually caused Springfield to grow into the largest town in Western Massachusetts.

The Springfield Armory remained in operation until 1968. (My mother was actually employed there as a clerk in the Ordnance Department.) Throughout its existence, it was the primary site for U.S. government firearms manufacture. After it closed down in 1968, the old historic colonial part became a museum which is run by the National Park Service, and the factory part became Springfield Technical Community College (where I took many Continuing Ed courses).
 
Incidentally, Springfield, Mass. is also the site of Smith & Wesson corporation, one of today's largest firearms manufacturers.


Edited by Windemere - 25 Apr 2018 at 17:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2018 at 22:51
Isn't there a "Springfield Rifle"??  Any relation to the armory, or is that to Smith & Wesson?

God made man and woman, and Smith & Wesson made them equal.  (Isn't that the saying?).

Before the American Civil War, John Brown tried to get a slave revolt going, and raided the Harper's Ferry Armory, but soon got crushed.  His attempt however, lead to a concern about slave revolts in the South, and thus also lead to the stockpiling of munitions in armories throughout the South.  In other words, John Brown's little stunt may have made the overthrow of slavery harder in the long run because the South was better armed at the start of the war than it would have been otherwise.


Edited by franciscosan - 26 Apr 2018 at 00:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2018 at 09:37
I just heard that today's school mass shooting is the 28th this year.

Is that correct?

And I saw Trump on a TV news clip saying that "it's been going on too long, decades now".

This after playing footsy with the NRA recently.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2018 at 04:31
When Donald Trump was elected I wondered whether:

1) the wackos would be satisfied, having a bellicose leader.

2) the wackos would be encouraged and come out of the woodwork.  Perhaps because Trump's angry rhetoric would justify their rhetoric, and worse, their actions.

I think we can say that the latter has happened, that the wackos have been encouraged and come out of the woodwork.


Edited by franciscosan - 20 May 2018 at 04:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2018 at 02:09
You can't blame Donald Trump for this.

It's part of the American psyche, and has been for generations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2018 at 06:58
Why not?  The President sets the tone for the nation, what kind of tone has he set?  Is he the kind that would talk someone off a bridge or urge them to jump (or get up and push them off)?  Does he promote irrational rage, or is he calming influence?  He takes credit for a lot of things that really have nothing to do with him, for example he "saved Christmas."  No, I think one can see an upswing in shootings during his first year and a half, I think that is more than just a correlation.  Not saying thats all that is happening, but does he help the situation or does he hurt it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2018 at 07:12
You're way OTT on this! Americans have been killing each other with firearms for generations.

Every president since Federation has been guilty of not doing anything (or enough) about Gun Control.

Granted, in the early years they were needed for self defence, but for the past 100 years or more, that need has gone, and has been transmogrified into what you have today, a situation where neighbours are arming themselves against potential threats, real or imagined, from neighbours, as well as from criminals.

This is not Trump's doing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2018 at 23:08
Yes, but mass shootings don't really start until, say, 20 years ago...?

My perception is that the mass shootings have increased in frequency and deadliness under the Trump presidency.  Now is my perception only that?  a perception?  or is the change real?  I am talking statistically.  Florida+Vegas+Santa Fe Texas+?

But, it is nice of you to not attribute everything bad to Trump....:)

People have been killing other people since, well, Cain.  I am sure that Australians sometimes kill one another, and if they do not use a firearm, then I imagine they use something else.  You may not like American gun ownership, but it is an Amendment in the bill of rights, and it is there as part of the checks and balances of our democracy.  God made man and woman and, Smith and Wesson made them equal.
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When Americans go crazy, they shoot up the place and there are up to about 50 dead, when Europeans go crazy, the ovens get going, and 12 million? Jews and others go up in smoke.  I prefer the American way of going crazy.  I don't like it, but I think it would be quite difficult for a 'totalitarian' regime to arise in the US, because of gun ownership.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2018 at 15:08
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

When Donald Trump was elected I wondered whether:

1) the wackos would be satisfied, having a bellicose leader.

2) the wackos would be encouraged and come out of the woodwork.  Perhaps because Trump's angry rhetoric would justify their rhetoric, and worse, their actions.

I think we can say that the latter has happened, that the wackos have been encouraged and come out of the woodwork.



Which Wakos? Academic? Street people? Hillary Clinton?
It's understandable that other cultures are shocked by the mass shootings US is also shocked and sickened. Multiple factors contributing to this problem including the level of hostility is increasing in no small part to the lack of leadership preceding Trump & now Trump.

Obama wasn't a calming influence unless you shared the same political ideology. He inflicted a similar filter on life that there is mostly no escape from, especially if you are already inclined to follow national and world events. That's why so many blank slates voted democrat in 2008.

Edited by Vanuatu - 28 May 2018 at 20:42
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2018 at 20:56
Has there been a difference in the number (frequency) and severity of shootings under Trump's watch?  If he can take credit for "saving Christmas"....

gun wackos, Florida, Virginia Tech, Columbine, Santa Fe Texas...........

Has there been a difference?  Or is it just a matter of perception?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2018 at 02:49
It's a bit rough to imply that in just one year in office, Trump can be held responsible in any way for the mass shootings.

No, it's more than that, it's bloody wrong!

Is it my imagination, or have the overwhelming number of mass shootings occurred in the southern states?

If that is so, what could the reason be?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2018 at 15:11
fransicosan, I don't think any stats are available on how Trump is responsible for mass shootings. But you can hope!

It has become clear since a number of mass shooters have lived to talk. The latest shootings in Florida and Santa Fe reveal that the shootings were revenge for being ostracized and or bullied at school. While a kid may want to kill an abusive parent the conflicted emotional attachment makes it very likely that someone else will suffer for that abuse. Maybe a classmate that really made your life miserable.
Kids are not just being humiliated at school, it's all over social media and the level of rage in the shooter demands the most public, permanent answer. In Florida one young lady was shot 11 times by the shooter and witnesses said shooter lowered gun for some students to let them pass. Not so disorganized and random is it?
In my experience with a teen in school, overwhelmingly "SNARK" is the tone among teachers and students. They all think they are starring in their own personal reality show. All fun and games until real life consequences break into that school life fantasy where assholes are elevated after modeling behavior demostrated by the teachers and administration.

That seems very personal and not about shooting a bunch of people that you don't know (Caldrail).

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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