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haplogroup iranian kurdish tribes

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    Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 18:01
hi
any studies about haplogroups in kurdish tribes in iran . like goran, sanjabi, kalhur, and laks? i am curious about ethnic and historic origin of iranian kurdish tribes in southern kordestan in iran.  i'll apreciate any information
best regards
bavandpour


Edited by kalhor - 08 Jan 2010 at 18:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 18:33
Hi there, I think such samples from Iran in the west are quite poor in quality and I suspect you will not have any such regionally distinctive studies.

I do know my own after having sent off for the National Geographic Genographic kit which I did 3 years ago.  It was R1b.  

My own 'tribe' was the Larti which largely urbanised about 500 years ago.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 19:00
hi zagros
thanks for reply. i have my origin in Kalhur tribe which is very near to pusht-kuh there larti tribe living .my tribe  are living from gilane gharb to kermanshah. but  our family were setteled in kermanshah as my grand father  had  moved there. i have heard many intresting histories about origin of our tribe , but i can't find books or ducuments and i havent been in iran more than 40 years! i have sent  my dna test . but haven't yet get answere. due to homogenity in  tribal population- it would be intressant to see the resultSmile 


Edited by kalhor - 08 Jan 2010 at 19:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2010 at 00:26
I'm fascinated to know what your result will be, I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same.  Actually when I had mine done there wasn't an option for a deeper analysis, there was only the 12ST one, so all I know is that at the top level it is M343 (R1b). Did you get the more advanced test or the basic one?  Because if you got the more advanced test then mine's will no doubt be the same if you're also an R1b, so please do share.

And I can see that NG map has still not updated its R1b story over the last three years!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2010 at 06:18
i bought the test  from ancestry .com it is y cromosom st 20 or some thing like that.  because having  my paternal line from shiraz more exactly a lor tribe called zand . i woulden't be surprised if i get the same result as you. but when it comes to maternal side gush!!! i have blood from  nearly all over the world , because  some of my ancestors had haremTongue and had a great choice in colour and shape of ladies Winki am waiting for the result. i'll tell when i get it. i am going to gradually ask for higher level tests in the future. by the way at early 1960s. there was some archeological studies done by a group of italian archeolog and they found  many graves which belonged to wandring celtic people  at the same area  we are both originating. first the people beleived that a few % of population  with blue eyes and pale skin living in the area was a mix from vikings soldiers and black smiths brought in by samanid dynasty which worked in iron making and sword making workshopes more around the village of mahidasht and all the way to baghdad.. but study of those graves showede those graves belonged to celtic   wandring people and those redish blue eyed guys from our  regions are maybe  desendent of celts  . those graves were(3000-4000 years )old. R1b is presented in celtic peoples that may explain  why  you have this haplogroup.
cheers


Edited by kalhor - 09 Jan 2010 at 06:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2010 at 10:44
ST20 is what I need this will prove whether the R1b is from recent migrants or whether it is from the ancient strand which has been in the Zagros and Taurus for millennia.  There is a strain of R1b in the region which is very close to but branched off thousands of years ago from the western European one, my first bet would be on this rather than Celtic artisans.  


"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2010 at 11:20
appearently the celts has been presented in a great number in western iran and  some parts of turkey too the regions called kallat  or ghalat in iran and turkey. if you notice the simillarity in dances and music (that horrible instrument  sack pipe) Tongue and big d.rums are presented in many countries with celtic  origin.  and  nice artifacts too , but as i said before   those graves are orginating maybe before to the arrival av meds and persian people to iranian homeland. i guess it is much older than  indoeuropean migration to iran.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2010 at 12:07
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

appearently the celts has been presented in a great number in western iran and  some parts of turkey too the regions called kallat  or ghalat in iran and turkey. if you notice the simillarity in dances and music (that horrible instrument  sack pipe) Tongue and big d.rums are presented in many countries with celtic  origin.  and  nice artifacts too , but as i said before   those graves are orginating maybe before to the arrival av meds and persian people to iranian homeland. i guess it is much older than  indoeuropean migration to iran.
those musical instruments are not celtic.

Celtic migration into Anatolia was quite recent when compared to migrations of Iranian peoples and other indo-European
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2010 at 12:14
 if they are not celtic , then where are they comming from and why  are they used  by celtic  peoples. the other factor is dances it is very obvious the kurdish dance are very simmilar to celts in scotland or ireland.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2010 at 12:43
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

 if they are not celtic , then where are they comming from and why  are they used  by celtic  peoples. the other factor is dances it is very obvious the kurdish dance are very simmilar to celts in scotland or ireland.
Who knows.... but they've been around for a long time and used in a broad area with no evidence that they are correlated to celtic migrations or influence. Be careful on how you use the term 'celtic' as well. Do you mean language, culture or race? it is a moving target  that is greater than bagpipes and tartan kilts.

...also linking Scotland or Ireland to 'celtic' is going to get you into trouble when moving across to the other side of Europe and the near east. The Galatians who went to Anatolia came from the balkans (if i recall correctly) which would be from bosnia/croatia/slovenia not Britain.  Celtic people are not one people. Even welsh and the old British form of celtic was different enough to Gaelic.

the gaida use in the Balkan dates to Thracians, and there will be other examples that had no obvious links with the Celts and used way before the people in Scotland were playing bagpipes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bagpipes


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2010 at 12:57
would you pleaes explain a little bit more about the difference between celtic peoples . dosen't celtic people have same haplogroup? dosen't celts imigrates to europe from asia?dosen't british celts came from asia like other celtic groups?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2010 at 16:17

The spread of a language is one thing, the migration of peoples quite another.  Would you expect for example everyone in Mexico to have the same Haplogroup as what occurs in Spain?  I wouldn't.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2010 at 16:34
well i diden't mean all the kurd or lor should have the same haplogroup. but surely depending to the area and city  they may have high % of same haplogroup . yes the case of language and ethnic is very clear too in latin america in some countries  spanish  ethnic origin is very rare  but language is spanish it would be the same in some african countries too. some time cultural heritage is following the ethnic origin  like finland and sammi people a close look at their artifacts shows an asian origin, but they don't look asian any more . in a country like iran with such a mix of divers ethnic groups. it is very exiting to find our origin. i am waiting for the answerSmile and it will take 4-6 weeks according to the ancestory .com . i don't no why such a long time?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2010 at 22:47
Thread moved to Ethnicity and Genetics area.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2010 at 23:06
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

well i diden't mean all the kurd or lor should have the same haplogroup. but surely depending to the area and city  they may have high % of same haplogroup . yes the case of language and ethnic is very clear too in latin america in some countries  spanish  ethnic origin is very rare  but language is spanish it would be the same in some african countries too. some time cultural heritage is following the ethnic origin  like finland and sammi people a close look at their artifacts shows an asian origin, but they don't look asian any more . in a country like iran with such a mix of divers ethnic groups. it is very exiting to find our origin. i am waiting for the answerSmile and it will take 4-6 weeks according to the ancestory .com . i don't no why such a long time?


All R1bs are not the same, there are a multitude of variables and to ascribe them all to Celts is folly.

When I said that I only knew I was R1b at the top level.  It was like saying I live in London without specifying the borough or area:

Quote

R1b1

R1b1 is defined by the presence of SNP marker P25.

R1b1* is found in Northern Cameroon in west central Africa at a very high frequency, where it is considered to represent an early back-migration from Asia.[10] R1b1 reaches a maximum frequency of more than 90% among the Kirdi.[11] R1* (which seems likely also to be R1b1, though not tested for M343 and P25) was also reported in the Bantu of southern Cameroon, and in Oman, Egypt, and the Hutu of Rwanda. Again the authors of the study felt that their data suggested an ancient back migration from Asia to Africa.[12] Another example of R1b1* was discovered in Guinea-Bissau.[13] Further examples have been found among speakers of a variety of different languages in Sudan.[14] The authors of another study have reported finding R1b1-P25(xR1b1b2-M269) Y-DNA in 3% (1/32) of Fante from Ghana, 95% (18/19) of Podokwo from northern Cameroon, 61% (17/28) of Mandara from northern Cameroon, 69% (9/13) of Uldeme from northern Cameroon, 67% (6/9) of Tupuri from northern Cameroon, 9% (1/11) of Bassa from southern Cameroon, 4% (1/24) of Herero from Namibia, 5% (1/22) of Ambo from Namibia, 4% (4/92) of Egyptians, and 4% (1/28) of Tunisians.[15]

[edit] R1b1a

R1b1a is defined by the presence of SNP marker M18. Its position in relation to the much more populous sub-clade R1b1b is uncertain.[1] It has been found only at low frequencies in samples from Sardinia[16][17] and Lebanon.[18]

[edit] R1b1b

R1b1b is defined by the presence of SNP marker P297. In 2008 this polymorphism was recognised to combine M73 and M269 into one R1b1b cluster.[1]

[edit] R1b1b1

R1b1b1 is defined by the presence of SNP marker M73. It has been found in SE Europe and SW Asia[19] and at generally low frequencies throughout central Eurasia.[16] Haplogroup R1b1b1 Y-DNA has been found with especially high frequency among Hazaras in Pakistan (8/25 = 32% R1b1b1-M73[20]) and among Bashkirs in southern Russia (62/471 = 13.2% R1b1b1-M73 [0/52 = 0.0% Sterlibashevskiy - 44/80 = 55.0% Abzelilovskiy]), with the highest frequency being found among the Bashkirs of the Abzelilovo region.

[edit] R1b1b2

R-M269

Long-hand: R1b1b2 (formerly R1b1c, R1b3)
Defining SNP: M269
Parent Clade: R-P297
Subclades: R-P311

This subclade is defined by the presence of the M269 marker. It is the subclade most closely corresponding to Haplotype 15. From 2003 to 2005 what is now R1b1b2 was designated R1b3. From 2005 to 2008 it was R1b1c.

This subgroup, may have existed before the last Ice Age,[21] but can be seen as much younger. A much newer estimate for R1b1b2 arising is around 5,000 to 8,000 years ago.[22]

[edit] R1b1b2a1a1

This subclade is defined by the presence of the marker U106, also known as S21 and M405. It appears to represent over 25% of R1b.

In Europe, the subclade (including its own subclades) has a distribution running north west to east and is found in higher concentrations in England (21.4%) and Scandinavia (Denmark 17.7%), reaches a maximum in the Netherlands (37.2%) and slopes down to the east through Germany (20.5%) and the Alps (Switzerland 13.3%, Austria 22.7%) towards the Czech Republic (13.9%) and Ukraine (9.4%). Towards North-Eastern Europe the concentration goes down to 8.2% in Poland and 7.2% in Russia. The subclade appears to be omnipresent in Europe, although it becomes less pronounced in Ireland (5.9%) and France (7.1%) and, further towards the Mediterranean, low values are measured in, Italy (3.5%), and Turkey (0.4%).[23] The frequency of this subclade remains unknown in certain parts of Europe such as Iberia and the Balkans.

R-U106

Long-hand: R1b1b2a1a/R1b1b2g/R1b1c9
Defining SNP: U106/S21/M405
Parent Clade: P310/S129
Subclades: U198/S29/M405, S26/L1/DYS439(null), L48/S162 (comprising L44, L45, L46, L47), L5, L6, P89.2, P107

The age of U106 is around 3,100-3,900 years old.

The exact technical definition of the SNP was not initially released for commercial reasons, but the same marker was subsequently independently identified (as their "U106").[24]

Craig Venter and James Watson, who in 2007 became the first two individuals to have their complete genomes published, both belong to this subclade.

Downstream of U106 are U198/S29/M467, P107, P89.2, L1/S26/DYS439(null), L5, L6, L48/S162 (with L47, which contains L44 - further subdivided in the L45, L46 and L164 subgroups; L148; L179; and L188), L127.2 and L199.

[edit] R1b1b2a1a1a

This subclade is defined by the presence of the marker U198, also known as S29 and M467. Although attested in southern England and Germany in the region previously inhabited by the Saxons, it is unknown if this marker arrived in England with the Anglo-Saxons in the 5th Century. Only low values of the marker have been detected over a wide area that besides England (1.4%) and Germany (1.8%) includes the Netherlands (maximum value 2.1%), Denmark (0.9%) and Russia (1.8%).[23] The age of U198 is around 2-3,000 years.

[edit] R1b1b2a1a1c

This subclade is defined by the presence of the marker L1/S26/DYS439(null). It occurs in less than half of a percent of R1b males, mainly with roots in the south and east of England and in Germany. L1, first discovered by Family Tree DNA, then confirmed and named S26 by EthnoAncestry,[25] is located in the flanking region of DYS439, and when it occurs, it inhibits the FTDNA primers from binding, thus producing an apparent null allele or null439.[26]

[edit] R1b1b2a1a1d

This subclade is defined by the presence of the marker L48/S162 and is also known as R1b1b2a1a4 (by Family Tree DNA - FTDNA). It is the largest subclade of R1b1b2a1a1. As of May 15, 2009, based on FTDNA tests of samples from 256 people, L48 was detected in 146, or 57.0% of those tested. From among those with L48+ results, 90% have DYS390 of 23 or less, while 10% a value of 24 or more. Among those tested L48-, 16% have DYS390 of 23 or less, while 84% a value of 24 or more. Therefore, there seems to be a correlation between values of 23 or lower for DYS390 and L48+, among those tested U106+.[27] The age of L48 is around 2,900-3,100 years old.

R1b1b2a1a1d has a subclade R1b1b2a1a1d1 (defined by the marker L47), which in turn, seems to be including subclades R1b1b2a1a1d1* and R1b1b2a1a1d1a defined by the marker L44. As of November 13, 2009, based on FTDNA and other published tests of samples from the R1b-U106 project, there were at least 122 published test results (including Craig Venters) for L47, with 20 positive (16.4%), including 13 persons originated from the United Kingdom, one person from Picardy, France and one Ashkenazic person of probable Sephardic origin (so caled Iberian Ashkenazin) from Belarus [28]. As well, due to the genetic distances among the members so far L47+, the age of this cluster is probably quite old, perhaps 2,700-2,900 years[citation needed]. It is possible that L47 emerged not too long after the L48 "parent" cluster. Preliminary data would strongly suggest that the L48 SNP occurred only a short period of time after the U106 SNP occurred, likely 200 years or less[citation needed]. With limited data for L46+ haplotypes at this point, it would appear that the L47 SNP occurred only a short period of time after the L48 SNP occurred, likely 200 years or less. However, more results and proper statistical analysis will be required. So far, these are only observations based on a few initial results. For the R1b1b2a1a1d1a defined by marker L44, as of May 15, 2009, based on FTDNA tests of samples from the R1b-U106 project, there were 37 test results for L44, with 6 positive (16.2%) and 31 negative. Downstream of L44, L46 has 37 test results, with 6 positive (16.2%) and 31 negative. As well, it is possible that L45 could be downstream of L44 and upstream of 46, but FTDNA has not started testing L45 yet. The age of L46 could be around 1,500 years before present (YBP)[citation needed].

[edit] R1b1b2a1a2

R-P312

Long-hand: R1b1b2a1a2
Defining SNP: P312 (also called S116, rs34276300)
Parent Clade: R-P310
Subclades: R-M153, R-M167, R-U152, R-L21

The P312 SNP appears to divide R1b1b2 in half. Although unpublished it was included in chip-based commercial DNA tests towards the end of 2007 and analysis of the first available results in early 2008 by amateur geneticists indicated it has a significant place in the Y-DNA tree. This led to rapid development of stand-alone tests by both EthnoAncestry and Family Tree DNA. The results from customers of these companies and testing of control samples for the rarer SNPs have confirmed the status of this SNP relative to the above list.

[edit] R1b1b2a1a2b

This subclade is defined by the presence of the marker R-M153. It has been found mostly in Basques and Gascons, among whom it represents a sizeable fraction of the Y-DNA pool[29][30][31], though is also found occasionally among Iberians in general. The first time it was located (Bosch 2001[32]) it was described as H102 and included 7 Basques and one Andalusian.

[edit] R1b1b2a1a2c

This subclade is defined by the presence of the marker R-M167/SRY2627. The first author to test for this marker (long before modern haplogroup nomenclature existed) was Hurles in 1999[33]. He found it relatively common among Basques (13/117: 11%) and Catalans (7/32: 22%). Other occurrences were found among other Spanish, Béarnais, other French, British and Germans.

In 2000 Rosser[34] also tested for that same marker, naming the haplogroup Hg22, and again it was found mainly among Basques (19%), in lower frequencies among French (5%), Bavarians (3%), Spanish (2%), Southern Portuguese (2%), and in single occurrences among Romanians, Slovenians, Dutch, Belgians and English.

In 2001 Bosch described this marker as H103, in 5 Basques and 5 Catalans.[32] Further regional studies have located it in significant amounts in Asturias, Cantabria and Galicia, as well as again among Basques.[35] Cases in the Azores and Latin America have also been reported. In 2008 two research papers by López-Parra[31] and Adams,[30] respectively, identified it as very important in all the Pyrenees, with some presence further south in Iberia (specially in the Eastern half but also in Northern Portugal). It is specially prevalent among Catalans, where it includes some 20% of all men.

[edit] R1b1b2a1a2d

This subclade is defined by the presence of the marker R-U152 also called S28. Its discovery was announced in 2005 by EthnoAncestry[25] and subsequently identified independently by Sims et al. (2007).[36] Although sample sizes are relatively small, it appears to reach a maximum in Alpine Germany and Switzerland. The Iron Age La Tène culture originated in this area, but an association with R1b1b2a1a2d has yet to be demonstrated.

It is found from Greece westward to the Bay of Biscay in France, but the percentages here are much less than found in the Alps. It has yet to be found anywhere in Ireland or Spain. Northern Italy seems to be a meeting place for both U106 and U152.

[edit] R1b1b2a1a2e

This subclade is defined by the presence of the marker S68 which was reported by in 2007. It has been seen in an individual from Scotland and another from Sweden. This subclade is unlikely to be found in much more than 2% of the R1b population.[25]

[edit] R1b1b2a1a2f

This subclade is defined by the presence of the marker L21. Early results suggest that it is common in Britain and Ireland, appears in France, Germany and Scandinavia, but is rare in Iberian or Italian ancestry.

[edit] R1b1b2a1a2f2

This subclade is defined by the presence of the marker M222. It is particularly associated with the Irish and Scots. In this case, the relatively high frequency of this specific subclade among the population of certain counties in northwestern Ireland may be due to positive social selection, as it is suggested to have been the Y-chromosome haplogroup of the Uí Néill dynastic kindred of ancient Ireland.[37]

[edit] R1b1b2a1a2f4

This subclade is defined by the presence of the marker L226. Commonly referred to as Irish Type III, it is concentrated in central western Ireland and associated with the Dál gCais kindred.[38]

[edit] R1b1c

R1b1c is defined by the presence of SNP marker M335. This haplogroup was created by the 2008 reorganisation of nomenclature and should not be confused with R1b1b2, which was previously called R1b1c. Its position in relation to the much more populous sub-clade R1b1b is uncertain.[1]

The M335 marker was first published in 2004, when one example was discovered in Turkey, which was classified at that time as R1b4.[7] Newly reclassified as The majority of men with a western European background are haplogroup R1b; having the SNP mutation that corresponds to Trinity's "Niall" STR pattern puts you in the subgroup R1b1b2a1b5b. (Because this R1b1b2-etc. designation keeps changing as new SNPs are found-- it started as R1b1c7-- we'll refer to it by the common shorthand designation R-M222.)



I could be any one of those combinations and each and every one of them have a different starting point and history, you can't just say anyone with R1b is descended from a Celtic paternal line.  The HG R1b came into being before the Celts or even Indo-Europeans did.  R1b is the most prevalent in Basques and Basques as an ethnic group have existed in Western Europe for longer than any other extant linguistic group.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2010 at 07:22
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


I could be any one of those combinations and each and every one of them have a different starting point and history, you can't just say anyone with R1b is descended from a Celtic paternal line.  The HG R1b came into being before the Celts or even Indo-Europeans did.  R1b is the most prevalent in Basques and Basques as an ethnic group have existed in Western Europe for longer than any other extant linguistic group.
bingo, britons where releated with the people of Iberia from the start which would very well exclude the Celts, who would of been in the east at that time and a different people in terms of culture than what eventually evolved later in Briton. Assuming they existed separately or distinctly to other IE groups that far back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2010 at 07:50
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

appearently the celts has been presented in a great number in western iran and  some parts of turkey too the regions called kallat  or ghalat in iran and turkey. if you notice the simillarity in dances and music (that horrible instrument  sack pipe) Tongue and big d.rums are presented in many countries with celtic  origin.  and  nice artifacts too , but as i said before   those graves are orginating maybe before to the arrival av meds and persian people to iranian homeland. i guess it is much older than  indoeuropean migration to iran.
 
Celts had never been presented in Western Iran in "great number" they never moved beyond Anatolia and their local influence was insignificant at best.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2010 at 08:11
appearently they(celts) have left some graves behind them in iran , but about number .sure they haven't been in great number and after arrival av iranian people to iran practically all other  non iranian groups have been assimilated  with them both culturally and genitically.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2010 at 10:50
Can you refer me to where you got this information on Celts in Iran?  
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2010 at 12:09
there are some on internet i have seen please make a search about celts and celt's history and there were some archeological excavitian in western iran in 1960 which i  have read the report att that time. sadely i have not a copy of that . 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2010 at 17:42
Well. Historically, Celts appeared in Asia Minor (Anatolia) only in the 3d century BC. They were transported into Central Anatolia by Nicomedes I, king of Bithynia and their number was only 10 thousand people. It happened very long time after Iran had been "Iranized" and their simply cannot be any evidence of Celtic presence in Iran before Iranians proper.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2010 at 19:00
Well what Kalhor is saying is that there were 'great amounts' of Celts in Iran only 1000 years ago (Samanid period).  I have never heard this before and during that period Celts were confined only to Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany and Scotland AFAIK - pretty much the furthest you could possibly get from Iran in Europe. 

The closest Celts were to Iran was Galatia, in what is now central-western Turkey, genetic drift is possible... However, it cannot account for the relatively high distribution of R1b among Kurds, Iraqis, Iranians and even Pakistanis.  Apparently R1b does not occur in India, which is interesting.


Edited by Zagros - 10 Jan 2010 at 19:07
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2010 at 20:03
the great amount of  treasure find in sweden in gotland . there are plenty of coins from samani period and according historians it has been very tight contact between east vikings from sweden and persian samani kings. there has been many vikings hired in the  persian army  as legioners and there were a blooming  commerce between these two peoples . east vikings usually imported  frankian swords and fournished the iranian army with them beside that there was plenty av tafts(steel melting and forging workshopes  from volga to baghdad made by vikings. surely they have left some genetic  elements behind them. this part is historical . but having seen many peoples with  blue eyes and light brown and red hair in our part of iran especially in remote villages  rise this question wether these people were the original habitant or result of mix with other ethnical groups . r1b is highly presented in scandinavian countries and r1a1 too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2010 at 20:05
Celts in Iran during Samanind period is just nonsense. Moreover, the "name" Celts wasn't used at all at that time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2010 at 20:10
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Well what Kalhor is saying is that there were 'great amounts' of Celts in Iran only 1000 years ago (Samanid period).  I have never heard this before and during that period Celts were confined only to Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany and Scotland AFAIK - pretty much the furthest you could possibly get from Iran in Europe. 

The closest Celts were to Iran was Galatia, in what is now central-western Turkey, genetic drift is possible... However, it cannot account for the relatively high distribution of R1b among Kurds, Iraqis, Iranians and even Pakistanis.  Apparently R1b does not occur in India, which is interesting.
AFAIK R1b Halpogroup originated in Western Asia and from there expanded to the West into Europe. So, I'm not quite sure what is the problem here...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2010 at 20:43
when alexander attacked iran  he brought with him a lot of wild celts  to iran  in his army. alexander built some settelment  and garrison in western iran  in our  tribal  terittory and a man called herakelion was his satrap or governer left there  and his statue (  herakelion) exists at city of kermanshah, then it is not impossible that celts were att that area and died and burried or stayed and assimiliated like the rest of other smal  ethnical   minorities. i don't know why this is so important to you. i am as a man from iranian origin more proud of my persian  paternal  heritage and of course from my kurdish (mede) origin too rather having a  celtic  origin beside that ethnical origin means not  so much and having a haplo group means only very little concerning a race because it only indicate paternal line and maternal line is not less important . there are millions of kirgyz and uzbaks having r1a1 haplo group and they look absolutely mongolian    . i am seeking the truth  and it is why i am asking.  

Edited by kalhor - 10 Jan 2010 at 20:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2010 at 20:46
Alexander didn't have any "wild Celts" in his army, this is incorrect information. I don't have the intention to diminish somehow your ethnic pride and heritage. I'm just pointing that some ideas discussed in this thread aren't supported by the historical facts as we know them.

Edited by Sarmat - 10 Jan 2010 at 20:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2010 at 21:00
 i absolutely not agree with you at this point alexander had an alliance with celts and they helped him in many wars. there are many historical events there celts were presented in alex's army
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2010 at 21:17
It would be great if you could substitute your point by some references to historical sources. The only interaction between Alexander and Celts was that they sent once a tributory embassy to him. As a general matter, however, the Greek world didn't know much about then at this time and it's absolutely certain that there were no Celts in Alexander's army. Again, as a general matter, Alexander was of a very low opinion about military capabilities of Barbarians such as Celts. And there had been no substantial Barbarian units in his army at all, up until the expedition in India when there were some Scythian cavalry units incorporated as auxillaries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2010 at 21:53
alexander in his way to persia had to come via galatien and have read a lot of popular history articles that alexander had a lot of kelt(celt) in his mercenary . true or false i can never verify like all the other  stories. but with having that in mind that galatien was in alexander's way to persia. they sound credible
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