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haplogroup iranian kurdish tribes

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2010 at 23:22
Sorry, my friend but there is a little problem with chronology there. When Alexander crossed Anatolia there were no any Galatians there and the place was called Bithynia and Phrygia, inhabited by the indigenous Bythinians and Phrygians. Celts where transported to Anatolia only one hundred years later long after Alexander's death and his conquests. I have wrote about that above and you can easily found it yourself by doing some wiki research. And there were no Celtic mercenaries in Alexander's army in the East period.

Edited by Sarmat - 10 Jan 2010 at 23:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 07:23
 i have read that alexander was allied with celts to fight etrucians or thraciens or something like that if it is right?or i  recal right . i am not history scholar and the most i know is from popular history articles. and somewehre i have read if i recall well that alexander had a great amount of mercenary in his army  mostly greeks and i have read too that many group of them was warior with  face painting which was a celtic tradition not greek if it is right. these things are basing my theory
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 12:01
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Well what Kalhor is saying is that there were 'great amounts' of Celts in Iran only 1000 years ago (Samanid period).  I have never heard this before and during that period Celts were confined only to Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany and Scotland AFAIK - pretty much the furthest you could possibly get from Iran in Europe. 

The closest Celts were to Iran was Galatia, in what is now central-western Turkey, genetic drift is possible... However, it cannot account for the relatively high distribution of R1b among Kurds, Iraqis, Iranians and even Pakistanis.  Apparently R1b does not occur in India, which is interesting.
AFAIK R1b Halpogroup originated in Western Asia and from there expanded to the West into Europe. So, I'm not quite sure what is the problem here...


That's just one theory, the other is that it came to being in NW Africa/ Iberia.  And it must be remembered that R1a is closely related.


Edited by Zagros - 11 Jan 2010 at 12:03
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 12:58
i diden'tmention kelts in samanid priod, but vikings and it is known even by archeolgical evidence that east vikings had a very elaborated relation to samanids., both by the amount of  samanid coins found in sweden and then arab historians which wrote about vikings in volga region and northern iran.

Edited by kalhor - 11 Jan 2010 at 12:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 14:34
Interesting, what texts are these?  I have never heard about Viking settlements in Northern Iran.  All I have seen are photos of a viking ship wreck on the Mazandaran coast, which was a recent discovery.  The discovery of coins is nothing unusual given that they were gold and gold travels.

Viking trade with kingdoms in Iran is likely, this does not necessarily prove any Viking establishment there and now we are moving into the realms of well documented history.


Edited by Zagros - 11 Jan 2010 at 14:36
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 15:13
There were no "Viking settlements in Northern Iran." Most of the known interactions between Vikings and Iran was trade and also several reported plundering raids to Mazanderan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 15:19
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

 i have read that alexander was allied with celts to fight etrucians or thraciens or something like that if it is right?or i  recal right . i am not history scholar and the most i know is from popular history articles. and somewehre i have read if i recall well that alexander had a great amount of mercenary in his army  mostly greeks and i have read too that many group of them was warior with  face painting which was a celtic tradition not greek if it is right. these things are basing my theory
As I wrote after Alexander had defeated Thracians on the Danube, the Celts sent and tributary embassy to him. There is no any information about Celts and Alexander together fighting against someone. Alexander's army was a relatively small. It was mostly comprised of Macedonians and  some Greeks.
 
You might have confused Alexander with Hannibal, who indeed had a great number of Celts in his army during his invasion of Italy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 18:17
the famous arab historian ibn fadhlan has writen about vikings around volga river and described them as rus , both he is talking about vikings not russians . i have read the samanid kings had such a good contact with east lead vikings that he had to open a silver mine in badakh-shan for paying their  work and despite the bad rumour of being pilard and robber in reality they were much more civilised and worked as black smiths or sword maker and soldiers. they had received an writen order from samanid king to settle and runing commerce too . there have been great great number of east vikings in both samanid's service  and even under a short period of time  in arab countries both in north africa and umayyid spain  and even in abassid baghdad. the money which is conciderable amount of silver coins was not stolen just payment for their service. sorry you are not going to get them backWinkBig smile

Edited by kalhor - 11 Jan 2010 at 18:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 19:18
Volga is not Northern Iran though...  and since Sassanid times Iran had the best steel techniques which was inherited by the Muslim successor kingdoms - there would have been no need for Viking black smiths.  And what you latterly described does not explain the presence of R1b in Iran which is older than Celts, Vikings and Iranians.

My advice is not to make any assumptions on ethnicity based on HGs with places like Iran, Turkey, Russia, India etc. 

My hope is that I can identify my own strand more deeply and try to find research which determines its time of entry into the Iranian geographical region, if indeed it does not originate from it.  Only then, if it falls within recorded history I might make a safe assumption about which tribe or ethnic group it came with.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 20:00
i don't make any assumption, because it is not of real importance , not for me nor for iranians in general.  we are all iranians and love our country with brown eyes or blue Smileabout vikings there is a very deep missunderstanding that they have been vary savage and brutal and pillard and rover but reality is very different. there are many historical recordings about the vikings in the east  lead speaking about their relation to the arab and islamic world. in one story writen by arab ibn al-musghayah said:alah has been merciful to the muslims they pushed back 30000 viking trying to take over a city(barda) in azerbaijan  and they were repeled by the governer of city named  muhamad al- murzban, then it seems the vikings were in great number there.    living in scandinavia  the most of my life with exeption of childhood and teenage period in iran. i can see both societies  the scandinavians are very good in organisation and far from the viking myth. a closer look to the normands in france and their history . we can find that they were very good on organising and writing civil laws. regarding to haplogroup it is showing only paternal side and can't really be enough to put an individue in some racial catagory . i read many things these days about iranian being of  aryan nordic  race etct. which it dosen't fit , but i have seen  there are some population with very nordic looking in smal population pockets here and there mostly in  northern iran and azarbaijan  and lurestan and kurdestan. due to the number of these individues comparing to the rest of population it is hard to beleive they are original iranians and the 90-95% non nordic looking are only  peoples coming from arabia or  are turkish or other non iranian tribes.in the other hand swedish language is very near to persian hundreds of basic words are nearly the same with very little difference in prononciation.it sounds unbelivable , but true

Edited by kalhor - 11 Jan 2010 at 21:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 21:39
You know it's not unbelievable, at all Swedish and Iranian are both Indoeuropean languages if you didn't know. You will find even more close words in Lithuanian and Russian.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 21:45
You are very quick to reach conclusions.

They could be original Iranians, why not? Often the ruling elite who change the culture and language of a region are a tiny minority compared to the indigenous population: Mexico and almost all of South America by the Spanish, Iberia/France/Romania by the Romans, Turkey/Azerbaijan by Turks so why not Iran by Iranics? 

As we know before the Iranics arrived in Iran there was already long standing civilisations such as the Elamite.

If you look at Ossetians, they are an Iranian people in the Caucasus but their features are fair compared to most of Iran.


"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 22:11
honestly those nordic looking(blue or green eyes and light brown or blond hair) people in kurdestan i have seen are  definitly not the ruling elites. mostly farmers  or shepards from the most remote places  in the mountain and even there is an expression in our region(awe khane ya bore piyas) is he a lord or blond man(farmer)??Shocked khan the master(often dark haired , dark eyes) and BORE PIAY(farmer) bor means blond or light coloured hairUnhappy looking at iran's history  i don't recall that if  we had a single blond king!!! any way i have both type of iranians in my family and love them both. my grand mother from father side was from tiblis she had light coloured eyes and my father had somewhat in between and my mother had dark eyes and nearly all of my brothers and me too with exception of one or two brothers which i never saw they died before i was born it seems the dark eyes are more dominant than blue eyes. what matters we are all brothers blue eye or brown we are children of same parents.actually elamit and sumerian had a more developed civilisation than nomad aryans, but they lost Big smile

Edited by kalhor - 11 Jan 2010 at 22:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 22:41
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

honestly those nordic looking(blue or green eyes and light brown or blond hair) people in kurdestan i have seen are  definitly not the ruling elites  mostly farmers  or shepards from the most remote places  in the mountain and even there is an expression in our region khan the master(often dark haired , dark eyes) and BORE PIAY(farmer) bor means blond or light coloured hairUnhappy looking at iran's history  i don't recall that if  we had a single blond king!!!


Well of course they're not the elites, we are talking about 3000 years ago, all of the elites are dead from that time and frankly it amazes me that you've lived the whole length of Iran's history to be able to recall that there's never been a blond king.  And what makes you think everyone would be blond anyway?  Is everyone in Germany blond?

The ancient Persians were a nomadic herdsmen (chupan) people  (just like the Kurds you describe) who came into Iran on horseback (look at modern rural Lors as an example), this is true of all ancient Iranians such as Medes, Parthians, Scythians and others who came into Iran and absorbed the indigenous people and civilisations such as the Hurrians, Elamites, Kassites, etc. naturally they mixed with them.  The people you see in rural areas might be the ones who didn't.  And I know blond Iranians who are not from rural areas.  two of them were my best friends, one was a Sarhang's son and the other doctor's son.  These boys look like what you would expect a blond German to look like and ironically, all of their parents have black hair and olive skin.  And in fact they both live in Germany now... when i also lived there one of the fathers used to joke that he's too scared to take his son out for a walk in case the Germans think he's kidnapped him .

Quote any way i have both type of iranians in my family and love them both. my grand mother from father side was from tiblis she had light coloured eyes and my father had somewhat in between and my mother had dark eyes and nearly all of my brothers and me too with exception of one or two brothers which i never saw they died before i was born it seems the dark eyes are more dominant than blue eyes. what matters we are all brothers blue eye or brown we are children of same parents.actually elamit and sumerian had a more developed civilisation than nomad aryans, but they lost Big smile


I don't understand why appearance is such a big issue for you that you need to affirm how much you love members of your family regardless of what they look like.  Shouldn't that be a certainty?

"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 23:20
Quote in one story writen by arab ibn al-musghayah said:alah has been merciful to the muslims they pushed back 30000 viking trying to take over a city(barda) in azerbaijan  and they were repeled by the governer of city named  muhamad al- murzban, then it seems the vikings were in great number there.


You are referring to the Rus, well the events you describe ended with all of the Rus leaving, none stayed, they took slaves and killed anyone else they couldn't and they were destroyed by Kazars on their way back.  It was like an invading army. 

The second time, it appears that they captured Barda but had to leave due to disease - again they didn't leave many people alive when they left.

So this as a source of blond people in Central western Iran is very unlikely.


Edited by Zagros - 11 Jan 2010 at 23:21
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 23:30
 a look at of many iranian sites and a lot of talk and speak about aryanism(iran nationalism) which i find ok , but it seems many of our iranian brothers beleive they are german  or exchange our people with other peoples!! a lot of talk  like that. our nice past of achemenid time which was the highest point of our history we had kings with olive skin and curly hair as they  have been described and ilustarted on statues and mosaics. the pictuere(painting) av many kings safavid or qajar or pahlavi dynasty no one have been blond or anglo-saxon looking  kings !!in the movie alexander the great he sudenly becomes anglo-saxon looking blond Winkdespite the mosaic ilustration of alexander showing that he was a mediteranian type with curly hair and rather a big noseBig smile and not like the hollywood movie star!unfortunately i can read plenty of insults to our iranian brothers azeris and arabs. refering that they are not real iranians and an iranian should be an aryan!!!i hope they made a general dna test to see if realy all those 1-2% blond iranians are more iranian than others? calvi - sfroza's dna test  showed iranian has R1a1 haplogroup around 50% in most part of countries with some variation. i feel these propagandas are spliting iran badly in a time which unity is most needed. i have received so many mails from groups opposing the regim and instead of trying to find a democratic soulotion all is blaming arabs for iran's problems.and if we had no arabs in iran then surely we had no problem!!! (actually the  ethnical arab minority living in southern part of iran has very little impact in iranian society) both politically and racialy

Edited by kalhor - 12 Jan 2010 at 10:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 01:58
Why the source of blondness should be ascribed to Vikings, Germans etc. ?  It is for example, known with quite certainty that Scythians (Iranic speakers) did have fair skin, blond hair and blue and green eyes. And there are certainly genetic traces of Scythian presense in North and Eastern Iran. And in fact, blondness can't be monopolized by Europeans at all.
 
This is a famous picture of Kalasha girl who looks very "Nordic," but lives, in fact in Northern Pakistan.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 08:32
Hitler indeed has a legacy in many people's mentality today: of associating blondness with "indo-european".
Genetic studies have indicated that blondness has nothing to do with language families, but rather to do with climate and diet. It is a mutation that occured in areas with little sunlight.

Blond-haired and blue-eyed people had spoken whatever language they had in the Neolithic and copper age; and when the Indo-European speakers arrived from Central Asia, they mostly adopted their language, just as most Europeans did at the time.

Regarding historical sources of who is "blond", one has to take into account that most of it was written in comparison to what people were used to seeing.
For example, in Spain and Italy today, any person with light brown hair, or lighter than usual hair, would be described as "rubio" (blond); despite the same person might be considered "brunette" by Swedish standards. Many Spaniards would describe the typical Rumanian look as "blond" just because they are on average lighter than Iberians.
In Mexico where most of the population is Mestizo the case is even more extreme; you'd be considered "blond" if you have light skin, even if your hair is jet-black.

Regarding the Scythians and Samartians, most sources were written by Greek or Roman authors who were used to seeing dark hair and eyes as the norm; so any description of "blond" should not be taken literally.



Edited by calvo - 12 Jan 2010 at 08:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 09:55
it is very intresting if a  more elaborated genetic dna test could be done too see if these nordic looking guys like that klash girl and those nordic looking guys of our's in iran are the rest of the old indo- european tribes or result of more modern time mix.
calvo i agree with you. in india there a great number of population are aryan  those north indian guys  which are described being aryan and white actually  have darker skin than average iranians whith meditranian type. i had some parsi friends from india and they were darker than average middle iranians, maybe by indian standard they are called white.as you mentioned colour of eyes and skin is related to the climate not race. there are many scandinavian people of finn-ugric origin and they are also blond with blue eyes like the rest of population even sami people(nomad arctic people with ugric language and look) which are not from same race as swedes  have in general blond hair and blue eyes too. but the problem is many of those guys as i refer with nordic type in iran are actually of nordic type . i remember once i was in tehran with a kurdish relative and many tourist began to talk english with himShocked and my poor peasant relative  could barely speak persainBig smile and i had to tel them sorry he is not a forigner . he is a peasantTongue that is why still i wish a good research in this matter to give a real answer to this question wether these guys are of old aryan stock or result of later mix.


Edited by kalhor - 12 Jan 2010 at 10:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 11:29
It's less likely to be modern if it's in the countryside or dahats.  It is more likely that change in appearance occurs in cities, since it is a magnet as opposed to nomadic life. And we all know how much recent migration there has been into the cities, in all countries.  You yourself said that your family history includes hareems, as far as I know men with hareems like variety especially from other/countries.

90% of what you have said to date on what happened in the history of Iran seems to have been dreamt up in your own mind,  I am even less likely to believe what you say about your personal experiences since no Lur or Kurd would ever dishonour a member of his family by mocking him in public like that.

Light features in Iran are not recent.  They are not from Celts or Normans or Vikings.

I could completely debunk everything you've drawn conclusions from on your own alleged personal experiences with my own.  But I know that personal experiences are not very reliable in drawing general conclusions, so I won't waste my time.



Edited by Zagros - 12 Jan 2010 at 11:31
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 12:32
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:



Regarding the Scythians and Samartians, most sources were written by Greek or Roman authors who were used to seeing dark hair and eyes as the norm; so any description of "blond" should not be taken literally.

There is no need to read Greek and Roman descriptions for that. Scythian mummies founded in Siberia have fair skin and blond hair, literally.

Edited by Sarmat - 12 Jan 2010 at 12:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 12:38
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

There is no need to read Greek and Roman descriptions for that. Scythian mummies founded in Siberia have fair skin and blond hair, literally.


Interesting..., but aren't Ossetians the direct descendants of Samartians? Few of them are blond though and many have slight Mongoloid features.
They could be "linguistic" rather than blood descendants though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 12:42


The famous salt mine mummy believed to be from the Parthian or Sassanid period.  It was thought to be a Parthian prince initially.


Edited by Zagros - 12 Jan 2010 at 12:43
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 12:46
sorry if i hurt your feelings, but the truth is that the colour of hair or eyes do not determine to be a part of indo-european or aryan race . a close look at india is enough prov for that the majority of people are aryan , but not white neither blond. the colour of skin and eyes are related to geografical place and climate . as i mentioned the finno-ugric people living in scandinavia have the majority both blue eyes and blond hair and many even have asian face shape . i wish i could send some picture in the forum that every body could see that. actual people of iran are a mixture of aryan imigrant + many indigen groups and together they have formed and shaped our history.calling some one peasant is not dishonouring as majority of population are being and are peasants in iran and the rest of the world. dishonouring is calling the majority of iranian people not iranian and conicdering a very few % of population with odd appearence to be the true iranian which is highly historical dubious. in a sunny hot climate of iran and india in order to survive  humans have to developed pigment in their skin  and blue eyes are very sensetive to bright sun and pigments are needed to protect . it is why people in sunny places have dark eyes. and  dark skin dosent mean being of other race. would you please tel me how many % of iranian people look like that klash girl in the picture?if these blond peoples are original aryan imigrant  comming to iran for nearly 4000 years ago . how did not change the colour of skin. a swede after one month vaccation in spain becomes much darker in skin like a midetraneans. i don,t want to offend or hurt a nationalistic feeling , but in a multi ethnic country like iran the talk about race is little too much. i love iranian culture both before and after islam  i love zaroastr and love to read what he said and love rumi too which was a muslim . i love iran and i love iranian old martial art(zoorkhane) as it has been a tradition in our family.by no mean i am against iran and iranian culture.but our days propaganda that only those very few % blonds being the original iranians and rest are mixes is a myth rather than reality. if there are some  historical ducument  showing that old iranan people in time of achemenid or  parths or sasanids before islam saying they were a blond and blue eyed people ,then please   post  some of them to enlighten me. i would be grateful for that.

Edited by kalhor - 12 Jan 2010 at 13:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 13:27
isen't that sibiria rather far from actual iran?Winkhow many blonds are living in shiraz the heart of persia, by blond i mean  really blond like the klash girl . otherwise you can even call me blond too Big smileBig smile because i have brown hair not black. anyway if i was burried in a salt mine i am sure my hair would become  the same colour of that mummie. HA HA HA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 13:46
I have no idea what you're talking about since I never mentioned anything you brought up in your post.  As for the rest, it is completely irrelevant what other Iranians think.  We are having our own discussion here.

I have not mentioned any of the issues that you raise in 90% of what you say.  Do you know what a straw man argument is?

Let me clarify for you:

I am talking about Iranic tribes who migrated to Iran from Central Eurasia between 4000 and 2000 years ago (including Mitani,  Medes, Scythians, Persians and Parthians). 

Iranic remains from Eurasia indicate that the Iranic tribes were generally of a fair complexion, this is additionally supported by the existence of Ossetians and their appearance.  This does not mean that they were blond haired and/or blue eyed, like you keep obsessing over but simply fair skinned plus all of the variables that brings with it.

This is a fact.  Now, where are your facts? I don't want to know about how you disrespect members of your own family becuase of how they look.

You are trying so hard to make fair complexions seem foreign and recent that you nonsensically attribute them to anything except Iranian a la Vikings, Celts etc.  I tried to reason with you and ask you for sources and as a recourse you fell back on personal experience in modern times which bear absolutely no relevance with historical facts.

And no, you didn't hurt my feelings, just your own credibility.   Unlike you, I am not writing off any valid possibility.  I even considered your claim about numerous Celts in Iran which did not stand up to scrutiny.

I have black hair and olive skin and also members in my family ranging from fair to really quite dark and none of them are peasants, for your information.

Quote but in a multi ethnic country like iran the talk about race is little too much.


Talk about race is a little too much yet you create an entire thread about it?  baba mara gozashti sare kar? Wtf?

"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 13:51
Isn't Africa too far for the world's population?  Because I don't know if you're aware but human ancestry can be traced to Africa.  Your posts are now completley devoid of logic.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

isen't that sibiria rather far from actual iran?Winkh


You know what hurts my feelings? A lack of logic and intelligence.  Goodbye and good luck.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 14:08
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

There is no need to read Greek and Roman descriptions for that. Scythian mummies founded in Siberia have fair skin and blond hair, literally.


Interesting..., but aren't Ossetians the direct descendants of Samartians? Few of them are blond though and many have slight Mongoloid features.
They could be "linguistic" rather than blood descendants though.
 
Actually, there are blond Ossetians. And, secondly, genetically, Ossetians are rather native Caucasians than direct descendants of Sarmatians. They are probably linguistic descendants. But, Ossetian language is, actually, quite unique and very remote from any other Iranic language. It's affinity with other Iranic languages is mainly based on the vocabularly and limited grammatical features, while in fact, Iranic vocabularly doesn't form a majoriy in Ossetian language lexicon. Grammatically, it's even doesn't look like an Indoeuropean language it's agglunative. To me, it actually, looks and sounds more like a Turkic or Caucasian language.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 14:18
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

isen't that sibiria rather far from actual iran?Winkhow many blonds are living in shiraz the heart of persia, by blond i mean  really blond like the klash girl . otherwise you can even call me blond too Big smileBig smile because i have brown hair not black. anyway if i was burried in a salt mine i am sure my hair would become  the same colour of that mummie. HA HA HA
 
If you didn't know Scythians were nomadic people who lived and moved from modern Mongolia to the Danube river in Europe. During the great migration of nations Sarmatians even moved to North Africa. We know very well that Scythians invaded and settled in Iran many times. While you disregard these basic historical facts, you prefer to to look for some mythical remnants of Celts and Vikings in Iran which never where there in such numbers as Scythians.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 14:19
this thread existed before under another name in same forum  about aryans .(ARE IRANIANS ARYANS) please watch under ethnicity articles with pictures of indian ladies etct. you have even participated !! diden*t you?  then it is not an obsession of my part!!!Winki don't know why we can not discuss this matter, without being rude to each other without accusing each other and in a civilised manner??? what matters if iranian have been mixed with other tribes it has hapened  many times during the iranian history and surely  greek occupation and mass marrying of solucides to persians according the historia like we all now  and many many  other simillar historical events. then why  having a mix of smaller scale with celts or another  tribe is  such a tabu? in all civilasation people have been mixed with other peoples. the celts  and germans are the most known tribe which had those physical shape  blue eyes and blond or red hair, about my crediblity . i don't like to have a crediblity which is only  based on reading some historical books and reapiting them like a parrot!without verifying sceintifically the matter.  history is writen by man some events are marked and some events are not mentioned and some are very false too.as i said it is my own observation that those blond iranians have very similar feature too the celts and geografically it is not impossible such a mix . finally i don't know why you are mad on me i usually do not insult or attack peoples verbaly. i just wanted to know more . it is just all.

Edited by kalhor - 12 Jan 2010 at 15:28
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