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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2013 at 17:53
Originally posted by mcpon14 mcpon14 wrote:

... I understand that Pachacuti turned the Incan empire from a small chiefdom into encompassing most of western S. America but Pizarro defeated it before it could truly exert a large influence on world affairs. Same thing with Nezahualcoyolt with the Spanish, maybe Cortez. Cervantes, Cook & Joseph Banks almost made it. 


So? Do you mean the Greek achievements were worthless because they were defeated by the Romans? Or that the Roman Empire was worthless because it was invaded by barbarians? Your argument doesn't make sense. All that I argue was that the list of relevant people presented above was actually your personal preferences, and that in the process you forgot many people, and at the same time remarked some guys that few people know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2013 at 17:56
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Not exactly LT. Unless you want to include Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny in your preferred list, ...

As the matter of fact Santa Claus existed Confused... He was Saint Nicholas, and he has been very influential, indeed Wink. With respect to the Easter Bunny, I expect more research to answer that Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mcpon14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2013 at 07:52
Ok, pinguin, you haven't provided an alternative to Berners-Lee so it seems you do agree that he is the most influential. How do you know he's the most popular? I would say Gates or Jobs is much more popular than him so your tirade about a pop star over Bach, etc. has nothing to do with this discussion. The Greeks actually made contributions that have effected the whole world but what significant contributions have those Native Americans made? You didn't even understand my argument. My argument was that maybe if they didn't get conquered by the Spanish they could have made significant contributions to history like the Greeks & Romans did. It has nothing to do with the Romans & Greeks getting conquered. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mcpon14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2013 at 08:06
And pinguin, the list is not made up of personal preferences. It's made up of deserving choices arrived at through research, so the claim of the list being based off of personal preferences is unfounded and detracts from the conversation. It just seems like trolling. What I'm trying to do is have a discussion of the merits of the people on my list and their ranking, a discussion of the topic of who would others have on their list and/or a discussion of who is not on my list that others think beats out at least one of my guys with why and how.



Edited by mcpon14 - 02 Jun 2013 at 09:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2013 at 11:09
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Not exactly LT. Unless you want to include Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny in your preferred list, ...

As the matter of fact Santa Claus existed Confused... He was Saint Nicholas, and he has been very influential, indeed Wink. With respect to the Easter Bunny, I expect more research to answer that Big smile


St Nicholas is not the coca cola Santa Claus.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lao Tse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2013 at 16:36
@Zagros- True, St. Nicholas is an example of things getting a little changed over the centuries of retelling his story
在財富的害處,而是一件好事永遠不持續。我在和平中仅居住在新的風下。 Wei Jia Hong No harm in wealth, but a good thing doesn't last forever. I live only among peace under
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lao Tse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2013 at 16:51
Originally posted by mcpon14 mcpon14 wrote:

The Greeks actually made contributions that have effected the whole world but what significant contributions have those Native Americans made? You didn't even understand my argument. My argument was that maybe if they didn't get conquered by the Spanish they could have made significant contributions to history like the Greeks & Romans did. It has nothing to do with the Romans & Greeks getting conquered. 

The Native Americans had many influences to the world. Their medicines, although crude, saved many lives, their architecture still influences many places in the Americas, and their lives changed history as we know it today. How different do you think things would be if Lief Erickson or Cristobal Columbus never found any people in the Caribbean or Newfoundland? The Native Americans (including the Aztecs, Olmecs, Mayans and Incas) are just as important as any Old-World civilization or empire.
在財富的害處,而是一件好事永遠不持續。我在和平中仅居住在新的風下。 Wei Jia Hong No harm in wealth, but a good thing doesn't last forever. I live only among peace under
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lao Tse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2013 at 17:10
Originally posted by mcpon14 mcpon14 wrote:

the list is not made up of personal preferences. It's made up of deserving choices arrived at through research,

Then where are the Greek influences? All you do when you have the argument against Native American influence is say that the Greeks and Romans were more influential, yet you refuse to mention any Greek or Roman minds in the list? That's one hell of a contradiction. Why do I not see any Plato? Aristotle? Socrates? Archimedes? Alexander? Hippocrates? Cleopatra VII (she was a Ptolemaic Pharaoh, not Egyptian, but Greek)? And you don't mention any Romans in your list? Why do I not see any Tiberius? Marcus Aurelius? Cicero? Julius Caesar? Marc Antony? Constantine I? If you're going to have a valid argument to not put certain people on a list that isn't biased, then atleast gives some examples.
在財富的害處,而是一件好事永遠不持續。我在和平中仅居住在新的風下。 Wei Jia Hong No harm in wealth, but a good thing doesn't last forever. I live only among peace under
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2013 at 20:53
Originally posted by mcpon14 mcpon14 wrote:

Ok, pinguin, you haven't provided an alternative to Berners-Lee so it seems you do agree that he is the most influential. How do you know he's the most popular? 


I already mentioned them, several posts ago. Please, read more carefully. And, by the way, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are just media clowns.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2013 at 20:55
Originally posted by mcpon14 mcpon14 wrote:

The Greeks actually made contributions that have effected the whole world but what significant contributions have those Native Americans made?


If you don't know their contributions, please don't ask me I cure of your ignorance.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2013 at 20:57
Originally posted by mcpon14 mcpon14 wrote:

And pinguin, the list is not made up of personal preferences. It's made up of deserving choices arrived at through research, so the claim of the list being based off of personal preferences is unfounded and detracts from the conversation. It just seems like trolling. What I'm trying to do is have a discussion of the merits of the people on my list and their ranking, a discussion of the topic of who would others have on their list and/or a discussion of who is not on my list that others think beats out at least one of my guys with why and how.


Nope sir. The list is very arbitrary, as the group as already shown you. If it based in research, quote your sources.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2013 at 21:03
Originally posted by Lao Tse Lao Tse wrote:

Originally posted by mcpon14 mcpon14 wrote:

the list is not made up of personal preferences. It's made up of deserving choices arrived at through research,

Then where are the Greek influences? All you do when you have the argument against Native American influence is say that the Greeks and Romans were more influential, yet you refuse to mention any Greek or Roman minds in the list? That's one hell of a contradiction. Why do I not see any Plato? Aristotle? Socrates? Archimedes? Alexander? Hippocrates? Cleopatra VII (she was a Ptolemaic Pharaoh, not Egyptian, but Greek)? And you don't mention any Romans in your list? Why do I not see any Tiberius? Marcus Aurelius? Cicero? Julius Caesar? Marc Antony? Constantine I? If you're going to have a valid argument to not put certain people on a list that isn't biased, then atleast gives some examples.


Very good point. Besides, where are my favorite: Seneca and Lucian of Samosata. In my personal opinion, some of the most modern minds of the Classic World.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2013 at 21:12
Originally posted by Lao Tse Lao Tse wrote:


The Native Americans had many influences to the world. Their medicines, although crude, saved many lives, their architecture still influences many places in the Americas, and their lives changed history as we know it today. How different do you think things would be if Lief Erickson or Cristobal Columbus never found any people in the Caribbean or Newfoundland? The Native Americans (including the Aztecs, Olmecs, Mayans and Incas) are just as important as any Old-World civilization or empire.


Absolutely.
Some people forget half the food that we eat today comes from the Americas, including potatoes, corn, tomatoes and a hundred crops more. Other forget that without Squanto and its agriculture methods, the colonization of North America by the British could have failed. Some people don't know that without quinine, white would have never colonized tropical Africa, or that without that drug the Panama channel could have never been finished. Or that without rubber (natives knew vulcanization, by the way) our world would be very different.

But those are just some of the contributions of Native Americans. The cultural influence in arts is important. Moreover, the Iroquois contribution was one of the models the founding fathers have to create a federal state. Idea that was suggested to the colonials by the Iroquois.

There are other more interesting contributions, known by specialists, but with the above it is enough to stop downplaying Native Americans, like the euro-centric vision of the world always do.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mcpon14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2013 at 09:38
Nope Pinguin, it is not arbitrary at all. I picked out the most influential people I could find in certain categories and put them on a list (whether I liked them or not) and ranked them according to how influential they were in their category in conjunction with how influential their categories were. If it were arbitrary I would have just picked my favorites like you guys did. What's arbitrary are the people you guys pick to bring out in your posts. Your choices as being the "truly important" people in computer history are VERY arbitrary, your favorites. I researched Berners-Lee and he seemed the most influential out of lots of candidates.  
And LT, the reason why your favorite Greek or Roman individual didn't make it was because I found more influential and deserving individuals. It's a list that ends; not everybody is going to make it.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2013 at 11:54
A mist like this is bound to be torn apart regardless of the content
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2013 at 15:23
My addition, Cyrus the Great.   Xenophon's biography of him, the Cyropaedia served a inspiration to many classical, Renaissance and early modern figures from Alexander the Great to Julius Caesar to Machiavelli and the Founding Fathers of the US.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lao Tse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2013 at 20:41
Originally posted by mcpon14 mcpon14 wrote:

   
And LT, the reason why your favorite Greek or Roman individual didn't make it was because I found more influential and deserving individuals. It's a list that ends; not everybody is going to make it.  

Sir, first of all: I don't really like the Greeks, or Romans, they aided in the downfall of a lot of civilizations, and led to the Dark Ages of Europe, I HAVE no favorites of the Western World. BUT, that doesn't change the fact that had it not been for the Greeks or Romans, perhaps people like Johannes Gutenberg would not exist. Had it not been for the Romans, the Latin Language would not have spread nearly as far, even if it could have existed as an official language, as it had, making German, English, French, Italian, and god knows how many other languages not possible to exist. Now, what characters would you suppose Gutenberg even could use to put in his press? Exactly, too many characters for Chinese that can't be carved into the templates, Greek MAYBE, Cryllic alphabet MAYBE, but the Latin-based (or it could be Latin, but still) alphabet is what was used in Gutenberg's press because it was the easiest and most commonly used. So, the Greeks and Romans are hands down twice as influential as Gutenberg and his lousy third spot which should really be at #40.

Second: the Greeks and Romans that I listed are some of the most well-known (along with pinguin's listings) philosophers, leaders, and inventors on the planet because of their accomplishments and writing works. Had it not been for Archimedes inventing the spiral screw, Gutenberg's press could not function (the pressing part involves a screw, look at a basic blueprint and you will see it). Think if, for example, the classic by Plato, The Republic never existed. Republics may not be nearly as effective as they are now because it was a vision of an ideal government and society. Think about those who influenced the modern ones on the list, and you can find the true most influential.

And Finally: Why isn't Hammurabi on the list? If it were not for him, the idea of laws being written for public viewing might not exist, therefor the Romans may not have done it, nor any other civilization/country. Now that's pretty damn influential.


Edited by Lao Tse - 04 Jun 2013 at 06:13
在財富的害處,而是一件好事永遠不持續。我在和平中仅居住在新的風下。 Wei Jia Hong No harm in wealth, but a good thing doesn't last forever. I live only among peace under
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2013 at 03:53
Originally posted by mcpon14 mcpon14 wrote:

Nope Pinguin, it is not arbitrary at all. I picked out the most influential people I could find in certain categories and put them on a list (whether I liked them or not) and ranked them according to how influential they were in their category in conjunction with how influential their categories were. ...


Sir. As I demonstrate in the case of computer history, you don't have idea about that field. I am a computer engineer and teacher of computer science, and you aren't going to fool me in that particular topic. Besides, as many have already mentioned here, you seem to have chosen some relevant figures together with quite a lot of mediocre ones that nobody knows. Forgetting Archimedes, for example, is a crime.

Your selection is arbitrary, and in my opinion, your insistence on the topic show you are just trolling.


Edited by pinguin - 05 Jun 2013 at 03:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sir.mayuni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2013 at 04:54
oooooh...that is good..thanks i never see it before....oooooh.....thank you i never know it before
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZombiE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2013 at 20:38
unclear and imbalanced list, Jesus and Muhammad (SAWS) are without rivals
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2013 at 14:03
Muhammad is very popular for Muslims. For everybody else, it is just a figure of a foreign religion: somebody like Krishna or Quetzalcoatl, who only some care to know.
In the case of Jesus, of course it has been important in western history. However, nobody knows if he really existed at all.




Edited by pinguin - 03 Aug 2013 at 14:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZombiE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2013 at 16:45
Yeah, prophets are essentially the most popular for Humanity. But, even if you look from the neutral position, Muhammad (SAWS) was the founder of a whole new civilization with the most advanced state of its time - the Caliphate. And that state in a short period of its existence has given the world many famous scientists, achievement of whose are at the heart of the modern world.

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