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"Here Lies A Sinner"

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    Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 04:56
Within the Corpus Christi Chapel in the Wroclaw Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Poland, a Bishop Franz Ludwig von Neuberg is buried. Above his burial place is a Latin acronym that reads, "Hic iacet peccator Franciscus Ludovicus Comes Palatinus. Orate pro eo." Which translates to, "Here lies the sinner Franics Ludwig the Palatinate Elector. Pray for him."

I have done a lot of searching through my books as well as online, and haven't been able to discover what his sin was; no mention anywhere of any sin committed by the bishop. My wife, who was raised Catholic, suggests its an act of humility. A kind of way to admit that one isn't perfect and is a sinner, and requests the living to pray for their soul. I hadn't thought of this, and I haven't found any other example of this on sort of epitaph on any of the other graves/tombs in the cathedral.

Does anyone have an idea why this might be written above the grave of a bishop and elector of the Holy Roman Empire?

Bishop Franz Ludwig

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 06:01
Mrs is correct imhoSmile

it's the idea of original sin, even the fish footed bishop was born in sin
one way of looking at this is as an act of humility since man recognizes his own failings which helps him to understand the failings in others.

we accept that we all are subject to failure, only doing the 'right' thing when we act as god wishes in the religious sense.




Edited by Vanuatu - 13 Jul 2020 at 06:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 09:16
I'm coming around to the same understanding. Do you maybe know of an article or something that explains this concept? I was raised in a much more Protestant home, and the idea of marking someone as a sinner on their grave it foreign to me.

Also, is there maybe a reason that this isn't more common? Is it just a lack of humility from the other bishops and cannons buried in the cathedral?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 11:58
Originally posted by Sean13 Sean13 wrote:

I'm coming around to the same understanding. Do you maybe know of an article or something that explains this concept? I was raised in a much more Protestant home, and the idea of marking someone as a sinner on their grave it foreign to me.

Also, is there maybe a reason that this isn't more common? Is it just a lack of humility from the other bishops and cannons buried in the cathedral?

If you read any dated religious text containing the phrase "original sin" you will get a redux of the old bible story, the apple and Eve. 
It's not inaccurate but it's more like a code bc people had old ways of telling stories. You could read St. Augustine and that's a worthwhile exercise but sometimes a person just wants to 'get themselves along.'

Jordan Petersen gives the best exposition of the bible texts that I have heard.


My ongoing pursuit is Thomas Campbell's trilogy My Big TOE (theory of everything). 
It's a lot of material but it's logical and enlightening and there are lots of youtubes that help. 

It's Campbell's explanation essentially that I shared with you on original sin. His assessment is that the notion of original sin is a biological /psychological phenomenon that we have in our human experience. The point of it being to help us tolerate the imperfections of others as we recognize we are imperfect and at a cellular level there is no distinction between bodies except for the thoughts that exists as the ego, our isolation from the Other is illusory. 

Nutshell-virtual reality is THE reality. 
Not everyone's cup of tea but more fun than Buddhism & the Catholics combined, it helps.

If you want a modern, distilled and more biology based explanation that would be Thomas Campbell

Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 12:14
Originally posted by Sean13 Sean13 wrote:

Within the Corpus Christi Chapel in the Wroclaw Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Poland, a Bishop Franz Ludwig von Neuberg is buried. Above his burial place is a Latin acronym that reads, "Hic iacet peccator Franciscus Ludovicus Comes Palatinus. Orate pro eo." Which translates to, "Here lies the sinner. Pray for him."

I have done a lot of searching through my books as well as online, and haven't been able to discover what his sin was; no mention anywhere of any sin committed by the bishop. My wife, who was raised Catholic, suggests its an act of humility. A kind of way to admit that one isn't perfect and is a sinner, and requests the living to pray for their soul. I hadn't thought of this, and I haven't found any other example of this on sort of epitaph on any of the other graves/tombs in the cathedral.

Does anyone have an idea why this might be written above the grave of a bishop and elector of the Holy Roman Empire?

Bishop Franz Ludwig

Quote Also, is there maybe a reason that this isn't more common? Is it just a lack of humility from the other bishops and cannons buried in the cathedral?

Cannot say with certainty, would guess that in Europe Popes would be the political influence in these matters. 
If this is your Franz, (i was trailing a Frederick) may not have been interred in that fine of a grave until long after his death. It was customary to bury the bones of saints after the flesh had rotted away.



Edited by Vanuatu - 13 Jul 2020 at 12:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 18:19
1. Yes that is the Franz Ludwig I am talking about. He wasn't beatified, so likely didn't need to do any waiting to be buried, other than to await the construction of the floor of his Corpus Christi Chapel.
2. I haven't watched that Peterson lecture in a while, I guess I should do so again.
3. Never heard of Campbell, so thanks for the recommendation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2020 at 18:56
Originally posted by Sean13 Sean13 wrote:

1. Yes that is the Franz Ludwig I am talking about. He wasn't beatified, so likely didn't need to do any waiting to be buried, other than to await the construction of the floor of his Corpus Christi Chapel.
2. I haven't watched that Peterson lecture in a while, I guess I should do so again.
3. Never heard of Campbell, so thanks for the recommendation.

"saint" can be used in a generic way, no he wasn't a beatified saint.
they used catacombs in Germany and once the flesh was gone (often sold for food) bones would have been placed in an ossuary with thigh bones crossed at the top then the skull, voila! ze jolly roger or skull and crossbones. 


any of certain persons of exceptional holiness of life, formally recognized as such by the Christian Church, especially by canonization.
a person of great holiness, virtue, or benevolence.
a founder, sponsor, or patron, as of a movement or organization.
(in certain religious groups) a designation applied by the members to themselves.

verb (used with object)

to enroll formally among the saints recognized by the Church.
to give the name of saint to; reckon as a saint.
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2020 at 01:34
That Thomas Campbell video was strange. What did it have to do with my question?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2020 at 05:39
Originally posted by Sean13 Sean13 wrote:

That Thomas Campbell video was strange. What did it have to do with my question?

It's not a simple question, no simple answer

You explained that you have heard the bible interpreted (J.Petersen) but still have questions.
Campbell is another way of looking at the question. His theory does require some backstory. 

i gave an overview of Campbell's theory to help contextualize my brief explanation. A more extensive discussion is laid out in the trilogy My Big TOE


Edited by Vanuatu - 15 Jul 2020 at 05:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 02:32
The Hungarian-American Historian John Lukacs, his autobiography is called "Confessions of an Original Sinner."  We are all original sinners, according to Augustine Theology.  Except for Jesus, for whom lust does not occur at the moment of conception, because it was immaculate.  For the rest of us, lust enters into conception from the father, and presumably the mother, ever since Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and became aware.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 23:56
Your wife is correct. It's a traditional expression of humility at the time of burial of a ruler, nobleman, or bishop.
Google "the Traditional Burial Ceremony of a Hapsburg Prince" for more information on this custom.
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