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Highly disciplined US Marines

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    Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 15:45
Graciously peeing on dead Afghans as a mark of their respect.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16534289

Seriously though, at what point does the thought even occur to do such a thing?  Is it just a sign of bad parenting ? Seems a bit psychopathic.  I suppose they probably chuckle with indifference at the thought of more of their comrades being killed as a direct result of this unacceptable savage behaviour.

"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 16:42
I suppose that's the way they taught. They forced to hate from themselves first and later enemy. Just a prediction from first 40 minute of Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 02:06
Desensitized by countless hours of first-person shooter games as children?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 09:18
What are you trying to say?  I play first person shooters, it's as thrilling as paintball but not so painful :P Computer games don't cause desensitisation because everyone knows they are just games.  If you don't kill yourself from guilt or fear afterwards then you have to be a psycho or a savage to go on a shooting spree for fun or ideology.  In this case maybe it's one or two racist ringleaders who peer pressure the sane ones into participating or approval. And we know a lot of soldiers suffer from serious, sometimes suicidal mental illnesses because of what they have done, witnessed or participated in doing.


Edited by Zagros - 13 Jan 2012 at 09:21
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 09:59
American official military history takes pride in the fact that the first thing the brave soldiers did when they reached the Rhine they pissed in it en masse. What one might expect from a soldier indoctrinated by such a brave act?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukarrib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 13:00
I'd say it's more to do with a society and a culture that is increasingly becoming more and more profane.

American culture sticks its finger up at anything which is sacred or sacrosanct.

And this is a clear example of that, at its worst.

Western cultures in general have tried to break themselves out of the shackles of cultural taboos, and part of that, especially when it comes to warfare, relates to losing all respect for the sanctity of human life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 14:48
I think you're right on that generally speaking, but you also have to consider the factt hat many of these American soldiers (the white ones) come from the bible belt.  It may be that the old testament violent evangelical preaching also has something to do with their lack of respect for life outside their own belief system and for the sake of balance I have to state that it is not unique to evangelical Christians, extremist Muslim ideologies are the same.

Although obviously not all, if many, of these war criminals are from an evangelical background - I think that the hate preaching of evangelicals has sympathies well outside of their religious grouping in terms of fomenting a hatred of Muslims and dehumanising them.

I think the most notable thing about this case is that it's not a "heat of the battle" thing and is thus much more difficult to brush off than when innocents are murdered in supposed cross-fire. 

And I have always thought that these instances are never isolated they are merely the ones that were recorded.  They are the tip of the iceberg.




Edited by Zagros - 13 Jan 2012 at 14:51
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 20:43
Those dead Afghans weren't people, they were the enemy, the moving thing with RPGs and AK47s that will blow you up if they get half a chance. They are the towel-heads that killed my friend last month, that stone women and cut off people's hands. They are not people, they are neutralised targets. The 'enemy' is a collective term, one target is all targets. Only when soldiers remove themselves from the pervading heady amorality of a war environment and go back to society do they (sometimes... often) see the true horror of what they participated in. Hilary and her ilk can get on their high horse all they want, the military creates amoral killers as a matter of pragmatic government policy, it only becomes a problem when the fruit of their labour shows itself to the world or returns mentally ill to a society the concept of which they have unlearned in order to survive. Some soldiers and the vast majority of their commanders develop an ideology of war that allows both worlds to coexist, whilst the somewhat weaker minded get lost in one world and never properly reintegrate into the other. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 22:37
Yeah, exactly same as what Americans would do to them at any chance...Nobody blaming them for killing their enemy. But what they did aftermath. I don't have any personal problem with any people. Still I wouldn't mind killing few American intruders at any chance. Even most muslims dislikes Taliban, they still sides with Taliban, just our dislike of intruders are common. And those cooperators of foreign invaders, they are lousier than them.

Also those dead combatants seem pretty antromorphic to me. May be you need to check up your eyes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukarrib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 22:42
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

I think you're right on that generally speaking, but you also have to consider the factt hat many of these American soldiers (the white ones) come from the bible belt.  It may be that the old testament violent evangelical preaching also has something to do with their lack of respect for life outside their own belief system

I'd still like to think that anyone who adheres to any kind of religious/holy system would hold a dead body to be a sacred inviolable thing that should not be disrespected. Yes I'm sure the atrocities described in the OT might justify for them to murder of innocent civilians for instance, but I can't see how it would lead them to urinate on a dead body. It's just crass.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

and for the sake of balance I have to state that it is not unique to evangelical Christians, extremist Muslim ideologies are the same.

They are? Can you show me where Muslims desecrate dead bodies?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukarrib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 22:46
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Those dead Afghans weren't people, they were the enemy, the moving thing with RPGs and AK47s that will blow you up if they get half a chance.

Well when you're in their country they kind of occupy the moral high ground then don't they? If China or some other country invaded and occupied America, don't you think Americans would also be moving around with RPGs and machine guns (they'd obviously have inferior U.S guns, not superior weaponry like an AK) trying to boot them out?

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

They are the towel-heads...

You're obviously just a hateful xenophobe who really doesn't deserve the time of day.

I wish you enlightenment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 23:42
Originally posted by Mukarrib Mukarrib wrote:



You're obviously just a hateful xenophobe who really doesn't deserve the time of day.

I wish you enlightenment.

I think..um, you've missed the point. Read what I have written again, it has nothing to do with my own political, racial or ideological viewpoint.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 00:12
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:



Also those dead combatants seem pretty antromorphic to me. May be you need to check up your eyes.

Jeez, tough crowd Smile

Need I place a disclaimer at the start of every post? War necessitates dehumanisation of the enemy. If the target you have neutralised lies at your feet and still melted in the intoxication of war, you deny their humanity, they are as valid an object for conquest as the Rhine, quoting Al Jassas above. 

Just like the kill squad in Iraq which exclusively targeted civilians and then took photos with their corpses, there is something about warfare, especially in the mentally pervading sense we see today, which causes people to act in ways they would not anywhere else. Some of that happens in their indoctrin..training before deployment, but evidently not all as many soldiers would never behave in such a way. Rather the combination of training types, language used (cynically created by people a lot more intelligent than the user), virtual reality identical analogues of real combat situations, and susceptible individuals can create the type of killer who could desecrate a corpse or a living person with  little less than genuine pleasure. There's nothing new about that idea. What annoys me more is the cheek of a Hilary Clinton for coming out and pretending such people are aberrations to her venerable nation. They are a by-product of policy, and damage limitation by their creators is about all they can expect. It sickens me to hear how 'inhuman' their behaviours are. By what standard is 'human' determined, and who is the more inhuman after all?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 01:20
I believe Dolphin has just learnt that irony doesn't travel well on the internet. Especially on an internet so culturally and linguistically diverse. But I digress... Dolphin summarises it well enough; the ideology of soldiery defeats the civilian concept of morality. And that the political and military leadership, who probably are genuinelly appalled by all this, are equally at fault as the soldiers in question.

The military and political hierarchy love to talk about how 'unrepresentative' these kinds of acts are. The 'bad apples'. Bloody Sunday. Abu Ghraib.  ETCETERA.
http://xkcd.com/15/



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 01:38
I agree with you totally Dolphin. I think you hit the nail on the head. I particularly like the bit about attempting to allow both worlds to exist and how difficult it is for some to do. I have never seen combat but I served with people who had. So to be fair, I can only speak from my personal experiences.

I also don't think this is a uniquely American phenomenon. War is war, and it's nasty and unfortunate to begin with. People handle it differently, but they still have to handle it... and that goes for all sides. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 02:06
Well... Irony and metaphors cannot always distinguishable easily from their literal meanings . Especially when your not native to that language and you are reading it. Lack of toning and facial expressions will easily lead to that way.

Anyway, issue is simple. Just don't do something you gonna shame if it became public.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 02:49
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

Well... Irony and metaphors cannot always distinguishable easily from their literal meanings . Especially when your not native to that language and you are reading it. Lack of toning and facial expressions will easily lead to that way.

Anyway, issue is simple. Just don't do something you gonna shame if it became public.


I don't think it is that simple. Dolphin put it more eloquently than I ever could but the fundamental point is an elegant one; we can moralise, condemn and preach against this kind of practise, but can we really reconcile this with a professional military who exist in order to wage war? Does all our hooblah about 'the ethical war' really stand up? Soldiers and people become desensitised - they face not people, but enemies. And enemies are people who want to kill them. Whats wrong with pissing on people who want to kill you? I see no huge moral difference between a military establishment that exists to wage war and the atrocities that come part and parcel along with it.

To quote somebody very wise: Twas ever thus.

The soldiers should be court martialled and face a long time in jail for what they've done. But so should every military officer, every politician who voted for the war, and every citizen who blindly gave their assent without thinking through the consequences.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 03:35
This was a bad thing they did for sure. Free propaganda for their opponents without really making them work for it. 

I've heard that quite a few ISAF soldiers coming back in coffins had been mutilated and desecrated without the families being informed of that matter.  Maybe it is time too start opening those returning coffins and let people have a peep at how nasty it has been over there for quite some time.

Also, here is something else too chew on. This is absolutely revolting and incredibly sad thing the "alleged freedom fighters" are doing to unwilling children. Granted, this is not a new phenomenon either. Instances like this were also noted in Iraq and other places around the middle east as well.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9014282/Afghan-boy-suicide-bombers-tell-how-they-are-brainwashed-into-believing-they-will-survive.html

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 03:40
Not to make light of this situation, because... but... oh hell with that! Yes too make light of very tense subject...

Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:


 and every citizen who blindly gave their assent without thinking through the consequences.


Ah, i believe you nefarious plans are more sharply coming into focus now, you dastardly Irishman. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 03:41
As Goban pointed out, this is not a uniquely American thing, and should not be reduced as such. Nor should it be a lever to introduce counter-agendas. This is an issue that goes to the heart of what it means to be human.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 03:45
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Nor should it be a lever to introduce counter-agendas.



COIN can become very nasty, very quickly. I don't think i have ever heard of a humane war.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 03:49
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Nor should it be a lever to introduce counter-agendas.



COIN can become very nasty, very quickly. I don't think i have ever heard of a humane war.

What does 'humane' mean? Does it even have validity as a term? Do we even know what our species (not our cultures) really holds as definitive?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 04:04
According to this link

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/humane

adjective
1.
characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy for people and animals, especially for the suffering or distressed: humane treatment of horses.
2.
of or pertaining to humanistic  studies.

Quote
Do we even know what our species (not our cultures) really holds as definitive?


Cynically speaking, perhaps chaos?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 04:09
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:


The soldiers should be court martialled and face a long time in jail for what they've done. But so should every military officer, every politician who voted for the war, and every citizen who blindly gave their assent without thinking through the consequences.


I didn't really think about invidual issue, I don't care too. My business with thoughts and ideas.

Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:


I don't think it is that simple. Dolphin put it more eloquently than I ever could but the fundamental point is an elegant one; we can moralise, condemn and preach against this kind of practise, but can we really reconcile this with a professional military who exist in order to wage war? Does all our hooblah about 'the ethical war' really stand up? Soldiers and people become desensitised - they face not people, but enemies. And enemies are people who want to kill them. Whats wrong with pissing on people who want to kill you? I see no huge moral difference between a military establishment that exists to wage war and the atrocities that come part and parcel along with it.

To quote somebody very wise: Twas ever thus.

Now, fabricating casus bellies are not our subject (as USA did plenty of it like many countries just had power to do it so and why now we are talking about it). There is no need to reinvent the wheel. There is a current international law of war. Killing opponent combatants in a war is not considered as a crime. If you became a prisoner of war you'll not treated as a crimininal. And if next day a peace concluded you'll return to the your country.  (This is just what's written, but we know it unlikely happens that way).

Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

I suppose that's the way they taught. They forced to hate from themselves first and later enemy. Just a prediction from first 40 minute of Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket...


I still insist that exists in NATO training doctrine. (Even their idiotic patriotic songs that they uses in traning pretty similar in many NATO countries). Since a country like USA who wages usually such hypocrite wars, they don't have higher commitments like defending homeland or bringing communism to other peoples (for commies of course), so they made thinks this way. If you hate yourself, you will care less for your precious and only one life. Every commander's dream... And of course if you hate yourself, you will hate everything. And than you will not hesitate when ordered to kill. Killing is a great taboo for any people. You can check confesions of WWI veterans. Most of them willfully missed their targets many times. Because they realised how much pointless it was...


Edited by Paradigm of Humanity - 14 Jan 2012 at 04:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 04:12
Humane as a term is an older form of human, now purporting to represent the values you have named above. Such values are aspirational and not representative, rather they impose a moral value on a species arrogant enough to take them as given. Not so. We need to grow up and give such moral values a new name, as to connect them with our label as a species is pure vanity and not truly reflective of our 'nature', as ethereal as it is.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 04:31
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

This was a bad thing they did for sure. Free propaganda for their opponents without really making them work for it. 

I've heard that quite a few ISAF soldiers coming back in coffins had been mutilated and desecrated without the families being informed of that matter.  Maybe it is time too start opening those returning coffins and let people have a peep at how nasty it has been over there for quite some time.

Also, here is something else too chew on. This is absolutely revolting and incredibly sad thing the "alleged freedom fighters" are doing to unwilling children. Granted, this is not a new phenomenon either. Instances like this were also noted in Iraq and other places around the middle east as well.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9014282/Afghan-boy-suicide-bombers-tell-how-they-are-brainwashed-into-believing-they-will-survive.html


It's been years 11 years that I heard of Taliban. But still I have no idea who they really are... Some say pretty opposite things. I'm confused, who do I believe... Same goes to Armenian genocide issue, both sides are pretty convincing but yet both sides claiming other one is lying Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 16:05
All bodies are desecrated, if not by people then by Nature.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 21:55
Originally posted by Mukarrib Mukarrib wrote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Those dead Afghans weren't people, they were the enemy, the moving thing with RPGs and AK47s that will blow you up if they get half a chance.

Well when you're in their country they kind of occupy the moral high ground then don't they? If China or some other country invaded and occupied America, don't you think Americans would also be moving around with RPGs and machine guns (they'd obviously have inferior U.S guns, not superior weaponry like an AK) trying to boot them out?

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

They are the towel-heads...

You're obviously just a hateful xenophobe who really doesn't deserve the time of day.

I wish you enlightenment.


Ramadi, when things really started to kick off in Iraq.  The act which prompted the heavy handed US assault on the city.   I am talking about the "contractors" (mercenaries) who were ambushed and then had their bodies mutilated, burned and strung up on a bridge for the cameras.

Or how about those hostages filmed by Al Qaeda as their heads were cut off with kitchen knives and then the head in the video that's stuck in my mind being picked up with the hair by one of the savages and brought up close to the camera.


Edited by Zagros - 14 Jan 2012 at 21:57
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 22:03
Going back to the original topic heading.  I mentioned the word discipline.  War IS war but we are talking about the pride and joy of the US military, the marines.

Anyway, the fact that this video came to light, along with many other American atrocities over the last decade, in the first place proves that there are people with morals in the US military.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukarrib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2012 at 23:53
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Going back to the original topic heading.  I mentioned the word discipline.  War IS war but we are talking about the pride and joy of the US military, the marines.

Anyway, the fact that this video came to light, along with many other American atrocities over the last decade, in the first place proves that there are people with morals in the US military.

Yes there certainly is. And some of them have even gone on to become the most vocal critics of the U.S foreign policies.
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