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hist of mankind from genetics

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2017 at 00:28
franciscosan wrote
 
Quote However, I do wonder why man's skin is tight, and animal's skin is loose, what kind of environs, natural or manmade influenced evolution to create it that way.

Is this just another type of naval gazing?

I've seen a few humans with very loose skin too-and usually far too much of it.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2017 at 20:53
Human skin is attached to the muscle (or fat then muscle).
animals don't have their skin attached to the muscle.
Realizing how things are and "why" they are that way, helps us figure out something new.  In this case there are probably evolutionary advantages each way (attached or unattached), which help the critter survive and thrive.  Vanuatu gives some good reasons for the unattached.

It could be navel gazing, and evolutionary at the same time, when you see a cute young thang with a tight belly, you want to offer to buy her lunch.  (btw, when I say a girl is "cute" (and young), I am placing her off-limits for an middle-aged guy like me, but I am sure someone will buy her lunch.)

Last of all, "that's just gotta be jelly, because jam don't shake like that."  (said of Jellyroll Martin, amongst others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2017 at 00:35
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Human skin is attached to the muscle (or fat then muscle).
animals don't have their skin attached to the muscle.
Realizing how things are and "why" they are that way, helps us figure out something new.  In this case there are probably evolutionary advantages each way (attached or unattached), which help the critter survive and thrive.  Vanuatu gives some good reasons for the unattached.

It could be navel gazing, and evolutionary at the same time, when you see a cute young thang with a tight belly, you want to offer to buy her lunch.  (btw, when I say a girl is "cute" (and young), I am placing her off-limits for an middle-aged guy like me, but I am sure someone will buy her lunch.)

Last of all, "that's just gotta be jelly, because jam don't shake like that."  (said of Jellyroll Martin, amongst others.

But there is a lot of human skin where no muscles exist.

As for cute young thangs with tight bellies, I wouldn't go near her, old I may be, but.....

And-
"You gotta have skin.
All you really need is skin.
Skin's the thing that if you got it outside, 
It helps keep your insides in.
It covers your nose, 
And it's wrapped around your toes.
And inside it you put lemon meringue, 
And outside ya hang your clothes.
Skin is what ya feel at home in.
And without it, furthermore, 
Both your liver and abdomen
Would keep falling on the floor.
(And you'd be dressed in your intestine)
A Siamese twin
Needs an extra set of skin.
When the doctor knows that you're feeling sick
Where does he stick his needle in?
In the end of your skin.
All your friends and all your kinfolks, 
Whether poor or whether rich, 
They have all got lots of skin, folks, 
It's convenient when they itch.
(Nothing can match it when ya scratch it)
It fits perfectly.
Yours fits you, and mine fits me.
When you're sitting down, it folds and looks grand.
And then when you stand, it's where it's been.
Ain't ya glad you've got skin! 
When you were just a little baby, why your skin fit fine.
And it still is gonna fit you when you're six foot nine.
So whether you're fat, tall, big, small, chubby or thin, 
Ain't ya glad you've got skin?
Songwriters: QUARMBY, JON/LEWIS, EPHRAIM
Skin lyrics © Sony/ATV Music Publishing LLC, CURTAIN CALL PRODUCTIONS"

I think that explains it succinctly.  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2017 at 22:41
"It ain't no sin to slip out of your skin, and dance around in your bones."

Holy Ghost People, Whitman College band mid 1980s.

Do you know the expression, "give me some skin!"?  Same as "give me five." or "give me ten."

But we digress.  Skin is more than just a shell to keep everything in (or out).  It is active, alive.

I imagine that there are some diseases of the skin, such as albinoism, that are due to genetic defects.  Of course, studying these defects can help figure out the genes related to the defects.  There are the people who walk on all fours, and sure enough there is a defect in their genes that relates to that.  There is family in Columbia who suffers from early onslaught Alzheimers, and sure enough it appears in their genes.

These days if you have conjoined twins (Siamese twins), a world class team of surgeons will assemble to separate the two, usually for free.  What if, any time you had some great abnormality, or not so great abnormality, you got credit for furthering science instead of just a huge bill?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2017 at 23:19
I think we're digressing too far from the OP, don't you?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2017 at 13:20
I hate it when my abdomen falls on the floor.

If humans lost fur due to changes in behavior, such as running (not to overheat theory- when running man lost fur) it could have caused other behavioral changes, after a million naked years, such as tool making, clothing and cooking. 

Would hominids living in cold places ever have the same cultural changes? We know they lost the skin pigment. In cold places would fur loss have had the same behavioral effects as in Africa? If the date of fur-loss was 1.2 million years ago and multiple groups of hominids had left Africa. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2017 at 17:49
Vanuatu
Quote I hate it when my abdomen falls on the floor.

Just pick yourself up,
Dust yourself off
And start all over again.
(Credit to Jerome Kern)

Quote  In cold places would fur loss have had the same behavioral effects as in Africa? If the date of fur-loss was 1.2 million years ago and multiple groups of hominids had left Africa

I don't know that hominids leaving Africa would have had fur, probably not I'd suggest. I think that growing fur was an interim measure until man learned how to kill and skin the beasts, and realise that the animal skins would provide protection from the cold in winter, and be able to be discarded in summer.

Quote Neanderthal fossils have been found in caves, leading to the popular idea of them as “cave men.” Like humans, Neanderthals originated in Africa but migrated toEurasia long before humans did. Neanderthals lived across Eurasia, as far north and west as the Britain, through part of the Middle East, to Uzbekistan.
from Wikipedia.

But,
Quote https://sites.google.com/a/umn.../neanderthals/where-and-when-did-neanderthals-live
Where did Neanderthals come from? Unlike modern humans and most other hominids, Neanderthals did not arise out of Africa; they are indigenous to Europe.

So, what to believe? And did other hominids arise out of Africa too? Heidelbergensis, Peking Man and so on?

I'll have to do some more reading.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2017 at 01:00
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu
Quote I hate it when my abdomen falls on the floor.

Just pick yourself up,
Dust yourself off
And start all over again.
(Credit to Jerome Kern)

Quote  In cold places would fur loss have had the same behavioral effects as in Africa? If the date of fur-loss was 1.2 million years ago and multiple groups of hominids had left Africa

I don't know that hominids leaving Africa would have had fur, probably not I'd suggest. I think that growing fur was an interim measure until man learned how to kill and skin the beasts, and realise that the animal skins would provide protection from the cold in winter, and be able to be discarded in summer.

Quote Neanderthal fossils have been found in caves, leading to the popular idea of them as “cave men.” Like humans, Neanderthals originated in Africa but migrated toEurasia long before humans did. Neanderthals lived across Eurasia, as far north and west as the Britain, through part of the Middle East, to Uzbekistan.
from Wikipedia.

But,
Quote https://sites.google.com/a/umn.../neanderthals/where-and-when-did-neanderthals-live
Where did Neanderthals come from? Unlike modern humans and most other hominids, Neanderthals did not arise out of Africa; they are indigenous to Europe.

So, what to believe? And did other hominids arise out of Africa too? Heidelbergensis, Peking Man and so on?

I'll have to do some more reading.


Sorry, badly worded. You are too kind. This article has the shedding at 1.2 MYA, using the mutations in skin color, very interesting.

"By counting up the number of mutations in this gene and applying a "molecular clock" to determine how long it would take for these mutations to appear, Rogers was able to estimate that this switch came around 1.2 million years ago. It is likely that this change happened in our hominid ancestors Homo erectus (or Homo ergaster, depending on whether you are a lumper or a splitter). Before that time, we were furry animals with light-colored skin; after that, we were naked animals with dark-colored skin."

So I wondered once these naked apes got to east or west Asia they would need new skills. They would have a different set of problems to solve compared to the African naked apes. The next time these ape cousins meet, one of them is Cro Magnon. It's accepted that CM were advanced and evolution selected them. 
Did exploring the planet at that early date cinch the evolutionary dead end for Neanderthal & Denisovians? Did fighting cold weather suppress advancement intellectually?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2017 at 06:54
Vanuatu wrote
Quote Did fighting cold weather suppress advancement intellectually?

I wouldn't have thought so.

My thinking is that, having travelled over thousands of years from their urheimat (is that the correct word?) ancient man would have needed to learn new skills in order to exist in different climates to which he was accustomed in Africa.

I don't have an answer as to who else Homo Sapiens Sapiens may have met and bred with. We know about Neanderthals and Denisovans, and there is strong suspicion that there were other admixtures. Just haven't found the proof yet, although there are still ancient skeletal artifacts which have not been identified.

I find the evolution of man from supposedly dumb ape like creature-and modern apes are certainly not dumb-into the so-called intelligent beings who now populate this world.

Of course, some of the current human race have yet to display their intelligence, and I speak of vandals, people who kill or assault others for no reason, and so on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 00:54
I tend to not think of animals as dumb. They know exactly what they must know and continue to learn. There is a type of frog that breeds on land or water. It's water loving cousins have a spur on the back leg used to connect the couple to ensure successful copulation while in the water. 
The land cousins, if placed in water while displaying pair bonding will produce offspring with spurs. That's it, one generation and they are adapting.

I don't think humans have that kind of instant adaptive potential not biologically. People survived in isolated places during WW2 in Siberia and reproduced but they didn't seem to evolve much, they merely continued to survive. With no down time, no leisure, how could a human advance intellectually?
It seems like asking someone in a labor camp to build a better mousetrap.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 04:04
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

I tend to not think of animals as dumb. They know exactly what they must know and continue to learn. There is a type of frog that breeds on land or water. It's water loving cousins have a spur on the back leg used to connect the couple to ensure successful copulation while in the water. 
The land cousins, if placed in water while displaying pair bonding will produce offspring with spurs. That's it, one generation and they are adapting.

I don't think humans have that kind of instant adaptive potential not biologically. People survived in isolated places during WW2 in Siberia and reproduced but they didn't seem to evolve much, they merely continued to survive. With no down time, no leisure, how could a human advance intellectually?
It seems like asking someone in a labor camp to build a better mousetrap.


No down time doesn't equate to the lack of thought being given to everyday problems-like survival.
 
A classic example of human evolution to suit their habitat is the Tibetans who have learned to live at atmospheres in which most of the rest of us couldn't without breathing apparatus. And there's an example of intellectual advancement as well, the development of breathing apparatus which enables humans to breath at high altitudes and also beneath the water.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 15:49
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

I tend to not think of animals as dumb. They know exactly what they must know and continue to learn. There is a type of frog that breeds on land or water. It's water loving cousins have a spur on the back leg used to connect the couple to ensure successful copulation while in the water. 
The land cousins, if placed in water while displaying pair bonding will produce offspring with spurs. That's it, one generation and they are adapting.

I don't think humans have that kind of instant adaptive potential not biologically. People survived in isolated places during WW2 in Siberia and reproduced but they didn't seem to evolve much, they merely continued to survive. With no down time, no leisure, how could a human advance intellectually?
It seems like asking someone in a labor camp to build a better mousetrap.


No down time doesn't equate to the lack of thought being given to everyday problems-like survival.
 
A classic example of human evolution to suit their habitat is the Tibetans who have learned to live at atmospheres in which most of the rest of us couldn't without breathing apparatus. And there's an example of intellectual advancement as well, the development of breathing apparatus which enables humans to breath at high altitudes and also beneath the water.



Yes there are theories about climate and hominid adaptability. You might like this article it's similar to what you've said. However, I don't think I suggested a lack of ability to problem solve on a daily basis. I suggested that leisure time made it possible to develop culture, which is not news. 

http://humanorigins.si.edu/research/climate-and-human-evolution/climate-effects-human-evolution

Everyday survival would be paramount. It seems that hominid appearances in the fossil record and tool making do coincide with times of climactic upheaval. Yes the Tibetans Shao Lin Monks, Bedouins and hominid groups adapted to hostile environments.
Although leisure time was a factor in cultural evolution. That is why I mention leisure time.

With the dawn of agriculture 10,000 years ago, humans embarked on a new experiment -- rather than adapting to our environment, we began adapting our environment to meet our needs, slashing and burning forests to create room for agriculture. That, in turn, allowed more leisure time, larger societies and a freer exchange of information. As cultural and technological knowledge improved, we were able to harness the energy of other animals and, in time, harness the dramatic power of fossil fuels as well.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2017 at 00:05
Vanuatu wrote
Quote With the dawn of agriculture 10,000 years ago, humans embarked on a new experiment -- rather than adapting to our environment, we began adapting our environment to meet our needs, slashing and burning forests to create room for agriculture. That, in turn, allowed more leisure time, larger societies and a freer exchange of information. As cultural and technological knowledge improved, we were able to harness the energy of other animals and, in time, harness the dramatic power of fossil fuels as well.

Yes, you're quite right. But at what expense? 

I'm not a tree hugger, never have been, but human kinds unfettered destruction of native forests is now beginning to reveal the grave mistake that was made. Fewer trees means more CO2 in the atmosphere which is one of the factors in global warming.

I think that, if it survives, human kind will have to have a long think over the next millenia about perhaps reinstating the environment somehow, or be forced to adapt radically to the new environment.

As more human physical tasks become mechanised, scientists predict that human physiology will change to a less active mode, bringing about who knows what.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2017 at 00:14
To say something is a mistake implies that we have a choice.  To say that we have a choice, or at least a rational choice, implies that we could have articulated a course of action that was different than what we did.  I am not a determinist, but I don't really find it useful to say we could have done something different, we don't really know that.  All we know is that climate change is a concern today, not just the only concern, but a concern.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2017 at 01:16
Do you mean that we're genetically hardwired to do things without considering alternatives?

That we have no choice but to do the frst thing that pops into our heads?

Historically, Homo Sapiens have made some poor choices over millenia, and evolved to include new found knowledge, probably by experimentation, in order to meet certain needs.

Sadly, some Homo Sapiens act on impulse, and some act on pure unadulterated greed.

Someone famous once said,"Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do." And he was right.

Of course we have choices, and, with the advancement of science and technology we have more choices virtually every day.

But this is trending to stray off the path from the OP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2017 at 01:45
Thom Hartman works with kids and adults who have ADD/ADHD, clinical words for people who must be actively engaged mentally or their behavior becomes an issue for others around them. He has a theory about genetic traits and behavior. I've added the link but for a quick look this table is a breth of fresh air. All this modern diagnosis and neurosis is tedious.
http://www.thomhartmann.com/articles/2007/11/thom-hartmanns-hunter-and-farmer-approach-addadhd 

Taken from Thom Hartmann's book, "ADD: A Different Perception."

Trait as it appears in the "Disorder" view:How it appears in the "Hunter" view:Opposite "Farmer" traits:
Attention spans short, but can become intensely focused for the long periods of time.Constantly monitoring their environment.Not easily distracted from the task at hand.
Poor planner: disorganized and impulsive (makes snap decisions).Able to throw themselves into the chase on a moment's notice.Able to sustain a steady, dependable effort.
Distorted sense of time: unaware of how long it will take to do something.Flexible; ready to change strategy quickly.Organized, purposeful. They have a long term strategy and they stick to it.
Impatient.Tireless: capable of sustained drives, but only when "Hot on the trail" of some goal.Conscious of time and timing. They get things done in time, pace themselves, have good "staying power."
Doesn't convert words into concepts adeptly, and vice versa. May or may not have a reading disability.Visual/Concrete thinker, clearly seeing a tangible goal even if there are no words for it.Patient. Aware that good thing takes time - willing to wait.
Has difficulty following directions.Independent.Team player.
Daydreamer.Bored by mundane tasks; enjoy new ideas, excitement, "the hunt" being hot on the trial.Focused. Good at follow-through, tending to details, "taking care of business."
Acts without considering consequences.Willing and able to take risk and face danger.Careful. "looking before you leap."
Lacking in the social graces."No time for niceties when there are decisions to be made!"Nurturing; creates and supports community values; attuned to whether something will last.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2017 at 13:19
I'm currently looking for info on precisely what effect the presence of Neanderthal or Denisovan has on human DNA, as opposed to that DNA which has no other construct.

Doifferences in SNP's 
[quotesingle-nucleotide polymorphism, often abbreviated to SNP (/ˈsnɪp/; plural /ˈsnɪps/), is a variation in a single nucleotide that occurs at a specific position in the genome, where each variation is present to some appreciable degree within a population[/quote] from Wiki

These can, and do effects various phenotypes in the make up of individual. Changes are noticeable where there are mutations of the genetic mkeup-which lead to ultimate differences in HaploGroups.

Each HaploGroup results in differences, quite often very minor, in the human phenotype.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 02:43
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I'm currently looking for info on precisely what effect the presence of Neanderthal or Denisovan has on human DNA, as opposed to that DNA which has no other construct.

Doifferences in SNP's 
[quotesingle-nucleotide polymorphism, often abbreviated to SNP (/ˈsnɪp/; plural /ˈsnɪps/), is a variation in a single nucleotide that occurs at a specific position in the genome, where each variation is present to some appreciable degree within a population
from Wiki

These can, and do effects various phenotypes in the make up of individual. Changes are noticeable where there are mutations of the genetic mkeup-which lead to ultimate differences in HaploGroups.

Each HaploGroup results in differences, quite often very minor, in the human phenotype.
[/QUOTE]



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2017 at 10:01
So, do we assume (very dangerous) that mutations caused the various phenotypes seen today?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2017 at 13:29
There's a small section on the male  Y-Chromosome that is non-recombinant ( meaning that it doesn't combine with the ordinary autosomal DNA). And so it is passed on from father to son in a pure state, and thus can be used to trace back a male lineage through all the generations.  

The same can be done with a female lineage through an entirely different process. Mitochondrial DNA exists outside the nucleus of the ova (the female sex cell), and thus it's also non-recombinant, and is passed on in a pure state from a mother to all of her children, both sons and daughters. But since it's passed on through the ova, only the daughters will pass it on to their own children. Thus a female lineage can also be traced through all the generations.

I'm not sure how this can be applied to learning if Neanderthal people contributed to the genome of modern humans, or to what extent, but it would be interesting to find out.


Edited by Windemere - 06 Apr 2017 at 13:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2017 at 02:29
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

So, do we assume (very dangerous) that mutations caused the various phenotypes seen today?


It seems to be the consensus. Red hair is a mutation that we can see, I'm 100% sure that Colin Tudge (The Engineer in the Garden) attributes gene mutation as the origin of sickle cell anemia and cystic fibrosis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2017 at 03:01
Originally posted by Windemere Windemere wrote:

There's a small section on the male  Y-Chromosome that is non-recombinant ( meaning that it doesn't combine with the ordinary autosomal DNA). And so it is passed on from father to son in a pure state, and thus can be used to trace back a male lineage through all the generations.  

The same can be done with a female lineage through an entirely different process. Mitochondrial DNA exists outside the nucleus of the ova (the female sex cell), and thus it's also non-recombinant, and is passed on in a pure state from a mother to all of her children, both sons and daughters. But since it's passed on through the ova, only the daughters will pass it on to their own children. Thus a female lineage can also be traced through all the generations.

I'm not sure how this can be applied to learning if Neanderthal people contributed to the genome of modern humans, or to what extent, but it would be interesting to find out.
Hi Windemere,
It seems that the analysis of genes has produced evidence that Neanderthals contributed a resilience to some disease and introduced some pathogens as well.
Just a few short years ago everyone posited the theory that light skin resulted from Northern populations absorbing less vitamin D over time. The link explains that a new theory based on gene research has provided an accurate (to date) origin for this mutation. Now that the Neanderthal genome has been sequenced, Denisovans the eastern cousins, and their mysteries may begin to reveal themselves. 
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2017 at 00:16
Most mutations are detrimental to the survival of the organism.  Some, like sickle cell are beneficial in certain contexts (malaria) when they a recessive.  I worry about us trying to get rid of "disadvantageous" adoptions too much, without first understanding why they are there.  For example, Lincoln and Churchill were depressives, and obviously the right people in the right place at the right time.  Most people run away from a fire, but some people run towards a fire, wanting to help put it out, contain it.  That is usually manic behavior, but it is also an advantage for a community to have a few people around that are like that.  If you are in a platoon, you want to have a few people in there that have a controlled mania that will keep you alive, because of their extra vigilance, their endurance, their aggressiveness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2017 at 06:38
From http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/
Quote

Incipient Mongoloids (or elusive Denisovans) 105-125kya in China?

The authors claim that these archaic humans from China show parallels to both modern eastern Eurasians (Mongoloids) and to Neandertals. The relationship with the Neandertals makes them prime candidates for the elusive Denisovans who were a sister group to Neandertals but are morphologically unknown (since all we've got is a genome, teeth, and a pinky). The relationship with Mongoloids suggest an appearance of Mongoloid morphology pre-dating the transition to sapiens, and brings to mind past claims about incipient Caucasoid morphology in Neandertals. Did aspects of modern Eurasian morphology originate in pre-sapiens archaic Eurasians? Hopefully someone's studying DNA from these crania as we speak. 

Science 03 Mar 2017: Vol. 355, Issue 6328, pp. 969-972 DOI: 10.1126/science.aal2482

So it could be that Denisovans predated Neanderthals, but survived long enough to breed with them, and possibly, with early Homo Sapiens.


Edited by toyomotor - 25 Apr 2017 at 06:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 04:10
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

From http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/
Quote

Incipient Mongoloids (or elusive Denisovans) 105-125kya in China?

The authors claim that these archaic humans from China show parallels to both modern eastern Eurasians (Mongoloids) and to Neandertals. The relationship with the Neandertals makes them prime candidates for the elusive Denisovans who were a sister group to Neandertals but are morphologically unknown (since all we've got is a genome, teeth, and a pinky). The relationship with Mongoloids suggest an appearance of Mongoloid morphology pre-dating the transition to sapiens, and brings to mind past claims about incipient Caucasoid morphology in Neandertals. Did aspects of modern Eurasian morphology originate in pre-sapiens archaic Eurasians? Hopefully someone's studying DNA from these crania as we speak. 

Science 03 Mar 2017: Vol. 355, Issue 6328, pp. 969-972 DOI: 10.1126/science.aal2482

So it could be that Denisovans predated Neanderthals, but survived long enough to breed with them, and possibly, with early Homo Sapiens.

The Denisovans and their "nuchal gracilization" seem to indicate a population that has less hard work and heavy lifting as opposed to the robust Neanderthal. Just to think of Denisovans and Neanderthals being displaced by CroMagnon begs the question 'who were the Neanderthals and Denisovans displacing?' 
Did Denisovans absorb a more advanced culture that allowed for less hard labor and resulted in the more gracile anatomy? 
Also think of Jakarta Man a gracile not far from the robust Aborigines of the Pleistocence /Holocene. There appears to be a fair comparison to the Neanderthal/Denisovan polarity.  


Edited by Vanuatu - 26 Apr 2017 at 04:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 07:32
Well it was ever proved that either Neanderthals or Denisovans replaced a more advanced, hard working people, that could just open the door to how ancient man, in some cases, developed such advanced technologies, which were lost for many centuries.

Or is it all mumbo jumbo and our ancestors really were aliens?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 01:59
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Well it was ever proved that either Neanderthals or Denisovans replaced a more advanced, hard working people, that could just open the door to how ancient man, in some cases, developed such advanced technologies, which were lost for many centuries.

Or is it all mumbo jumbo and our ancestors really were aliens?
Not to the scientific community as yet but of course before Leaky we knew nothing of Lucy. In the grand expanse of time, it seems more likely than not to me at least, that different models of humanity had been tried and risen or failed depending on... who knows how many factors and geological opportunities.

Thinking of the Australian natives, the mind swoons at the great expanse of time and mastery of man over his surroundings. Clever-doesn't begin to describe these 'Walkers' I tend to see the modern 'Us' as dimmer in the heart/soul and therefore losing true intelligence in modern times. We are too obsessed with 'items.' 

Edgar Cayce, Jane Roberts and others have introduced irresistible "possible pasts" Aliens may be the latest manifestation of a higher power.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 05:43
Vanuatu
Quote Thinking of the Australian natives, the mind swoons at the great expanse of time and mastery of man over his surroundings.

And to think, the last of our Aborigines to contact white people was in the mid 1960's. Many Aborigines still practice tribal traditions of Walkabout, which is what they call their nomadic way of life, living off  bush tucker, avoiding the trappings of white society.

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no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 14:42
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu
Quote Thinking of the Australian natives, the mind swoons at the great expanse of time and mastery of man over his surroundings.

And to think, the last of our Aborigines to contact white people was in the mid 1960's. Many Aborigines still practice tribal traditions of Walkabout, which is what they call their nomadic way of life, living off  bush tucker, avoiding the trappings of white society.


I know the UK takes great care with historical and ancient landmarks. How do Australians rate the importance of preserving the culture of Aborigines and Walkabout? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2017 at 06:24
Vanuatu wrote
Quote I know the UK takes great care with historical and ancient landmarks. How do Australians rate the importance of preserving the culture of Aborigines and Walkabout?

1. That's difficult to answer because white people really don't know about or understand Aboriginal culture. When I was in Primary School (Grades 1-6) we had lessons on Aboriginal Culture, so I and others from my era and school have a pretty basic knowledge and understanding of the culture. As I said, basic. Because of the Aborigines nomadic life, not constructing buildings and not having a written language, the only knowledge of Aboriginal history etc is that which has been passed down by word of mouth. As some Aborigines shed their traditional lifestyle to become, unfortunately, drunken fringe dwellers, their culture is being lost in some cases. In the main, the only visible signs of past Aboriginal habitation are ancient petroglyphs and coastal middens.
Don't forget that the Australian Aborigine is the last Stone Age man still walking the earth. Where petroglyphs and middens are found, steps are usually taken to preserve them, but, because of their often remote nature, it's often not possible to protect them from the mindless idiots in society.

2. Walkabout, is, as the word implies, the act of walking about country, that is, the land which the particular Aboriginal community has roamed since time immemorial, "The Dream Time" which Aborigines call their ancient past, the time of the beginning. Aborigines, in general, have a very close affiliation with "country" which amounts to their ancient home land-notice not The Country but  Country. Some Aborigines on Mainland Australia, on the West Coast and the Far North, still adhere to many tribal traditions, including Walkabout. They simply pack up their meagre belongings and off they go. There is no pattern to their Walkabout and there is no set time for it to finish. They live on Bush Tucker, snakes, lizards, wichetty grubs, small animals, and if they're lucky (read skilful) enough, Kangaroo or Wallaby.

General:

Australian Aborigines never gathered in large groups like the plains Indians, their tribes are usually extended family groups. In some communities, the live by Tribal Law, which is really biblical. If you do something wrong, the tribal elders will dictate your punishment-a broken arm or leg, a spear to the leg or a good bashing. Banishment from the tribe is the last resort, and is often accompanied by a Singing by the Kadaitcha Man (Witch Doctor) which often results in death, regardless of where the offender is at the time. Aborigines who fall foul of White Mans Law and are sent to prison became the subject of a Royal Commission of Inquiry as the number of Aboriginal deaths in custody was causing alarm. Long story short-Aborigines taken away from Country for too long, simply lose the will to live, and die.

Most mainland Aborigines, including the Tiwi Islanders and the Torres Strait Islanders are offered education and are taught English at some stage in their youth, but for quite a number, English remains a second langauge.

In Tasmania, the last Aborigine died nearly 200 years ago. Their language and culture have been lost. There are a number of people who claim Tasmanian Aboriginal ancestry, but they are totally integrated into the white community and are, in the main, impossible to visually identify.

I don't beive that Australians are, generally, racist. We hold our Aboriginal sports men and women in the highest regard. On the large mainland cattle stations-ranches-which are often a million square miles or more, the Aboriginal Jackaroos (Cowboys-but not really) are renowned for their work ethic.




Edited by toyomotor - 29 Apr 2017 at 06:26
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