| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - hist of mankind from genetics
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


hist of mankind from genetics

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 6>
Author
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2017 at 14:40
Franciscosan

Yes, I get mad at you. You seem to want to pick an argument with just about everything I write.

I didn't say that matriachial societies were widespread, I didn't say that they were large in number. I said that they existed in ancient times and that historians have recognised that fact. I also said that some still exist today.

Telll me I'm wrong,  and prove it!!!

I'm getting tired of your adversarial style. 


It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Online
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2017 at 06:31
But they don't exist "in modern day," they exist on the fringe of societies (the boundaries of larger societies) and obscure regional areas.  That is the thing, you got to be an anthropologist or are specifically looking for them, in order to find them.  Now I do hope that they are viable, that they are going to survive and indeed thrive in this modern world of change and progress, but knowing that indigenous cultures and languages are threatened, I would not find it hard to believe that they might be threatened as well.

toyomotor, you take things too personally, if you make a claim and I call you on it, it should not be a big deal, you have supplied me with the mental floss article in answer to your claim, and I acknowledge that those are matriarchal/matrialineal societies "in" the modern world.  It does not change my opinion that matriarchal societies are fairly rare, especially with some anthropologist in the past wanting to find them, when they are not necessarily there (Margaret Mead).  I will assume that the cases you gave me are the real deal, but I also believe that if they were not the real deal, I personally would not have the knowledge to question them either way.  It is interesting them bringing up, matriarchal and matrilineal.  Judaism is matrilineal, but no one would confuse them with matriarchal.

We don't really know much about the amazons, except that they had one breast (seriously).  A-mazon (without breast), they cut it off so it would not obstruct in archery.  We have a lot of "Venus (of Willendorf)" figurines from the stone age, and not as much male figurines, but that might just be the accidents of survive.  If woman's sacred space is the earth and a cave, and man's is the sky and rain, are evidence is going to be bias towards seeing activity of the earth goddess.  On the other hand, fertility must have been a very basic 'need' for the survival of the tribe.

Everybody says that there were/are matriarchal societies, but when you get down to it, it is actually pretty hard to come up with matriarchal societies, and I also think that is a sign of something else, it is hard to come up with matriarchal societies, and it is even hard to conceptualize what a matriarchal society would be like.  We tend to think that it would be like our society today, but with women in the leadership positions, than men, but anthropological examples of actual matriarchal societies shows that it would not just be the equivalent of a negative exposure of a black and white photo, it would be something quite different.  It is not impossible, but it would be quite different.

If you want to get mad at me, you can, but I am just trying to come with answers too, albeit in a different way than you are.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2017 at 19:19
Now you're being patronising.Angry

You know that in ancient times such societies existed, the Amazons for example.  

It should therefore come as no surprise to you that such societies exist in modern day. (http://mentalfloss.com/article/31274/6-modern-societies-where-women-literally-rule)

If you took the time to do some research, rather than snipe at me, you would know these things.


It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Online
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2017 at 12:36
Name three societies that were matriarchal, and for extra credit give three in the time period of the historical era.  You can give prehistoric and primitive, but I don't know if that qualifies as "well known and accepted historical fact."

I am single, but I go over to my little ol' mother's quite often.  I think the Australian Silky Terrier there is the boss.

You have in the genetic heritage, a sign of kingship, when one male fathers through a lot of females, one generation of a whole people.  In such a situation, men are second class, except for the king, who supposedly is to be killed and replaced every 1/2, 1, or nine years.  Is that patriarchal or matriarchal, I am not quite sure.  But in any case, the stories about it tend to be mythical and prehistorical.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2017 at 18:09
franciscosan

It's a well known and accepted historical fact that a number of societies were matriarchal and that men therefore were relegated to second place. There is no evidence that these communities were disfunctional, afaik.

Who's the boss in your house?Wink

But this strays from the topic, which is History of Mankind from Genetics.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Online
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2017 at 12:56
Some people believe that the prehistoric stone age (I am a little fuzzy about what age, paleo, mess, or neolithic?) that it was the age of the Great Earth Mother Goddess, when a matriarchy ruled, and the power of women's fertility was fundamental.  (Marija Gimbutas sp?)

So we may joke about "the good old days," but some people believed that in the prehistoric era the women wore the pants in the family, so to speak.  Granted, such ideas are controversial, politically charged, and it isn't exactly easy to know much about the lithic eras.  But some people believe in a prehistoric matriarchy, including covering (probably) the Minoans.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2017 at 12:43
Ah yes, the "good old days".

But I think we better leave it there, or suffer the consequences from that other gender. Wink
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Online
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2017 at 12:14
Somebody sold us a "new and improved" stick, and it went down hill from there.

Civilization, that is where it went wrong, women civilized men, it is all their "fault."
If it wasn't for women, men would still be naked, watching the fire, and eating week old doritos
caught in our beards.  If it wasn't for women, the sheep would be nervous. :P

As one cave man said to the other, "I don't get it, everything is natural, all we eat is organic, and we only live until we are 30"
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2017 at 12:35
It was a bloody BIG stick.LOL

Do you remember when the popular cartoon depiction of a cave man was a hairy bloke with a big wooden club over his shoulder, dragging his semi-concious new bride by the hair to their new home?

What went wrong? Why did we change?LOL


Edited by toyomotor - 04 Jun 2017 at 12:38
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1841
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2017 at 12:24
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote   Imagine this beautiful little creature smart enough to throw stones.

I presume that you are referring to yourself. I'm still in pain over the stones you threw at me on the T***p thread.

A smart hominid wouldn't throw stones at you, maybe just a poke with a stick.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2017 at 17:58
Quote   Imagine this beautiful little creature smart enough to throw stones.

I presume that you are referring to yourself. I'm still in pain over the stones you threw at me on the T***p thread.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1841
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 12:47
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

More Updates!!!
Now there is a bit more than speculation about the Out of Africa theory, after ancient skeletal remains were found in southern Europe, bones which indicate a possibility that ancient Homo Sapiens Sapiens could, just could, have originated in the region of the Iberian Peninsula.

Is this what you are referring to? Imagine this beautiful little creature smart enough to throw stones. Hunters? What do we think?


Europe, not Africa, might have spawned the first members of the human evolutionary family around 7 million years ago, researchers say.

Tooth characteristics of a chimpanzee-sized primate that once lived in southeastern Europe suggest that the primate, known as Graecopithecus, may have been a hominid, not an ape as many researchers assume. One tooth in particular, the second lower premolar, is telling. It features two partially fused roots, a trait characteristic of early hominids but not ancient apes, a team led by geoscientist Jochen Fuss of the University of Tübingen in Germany reports May 22 in PLOS ONE.

Scientists suspect the first hominids appeared sometime between 8 million and 6 million years ago. New age estimates for previously discovered fossils position Graecopithecus as potentially the earliest known hominid, the investigators suggest. A Graecopithecus lower jaw, found in Athens with most teeth still in their sockets, dates to around 7.175 million years ago, a group led by Tübingen geoscientist Madelaine Böhme reports May 22 in a separate paper in PLOS ONE. An isolated Graecopithecus tooth from Bulgaria, an upper second premolar, dates to approximately 7.24 million years ago, the scientists say.

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 11:48
More Updates!!!
Now there is a bit more than speculation about the Out of Africa theory, after ancient skeletal remains were found in southern Europe, bones which indicate a possibility that ancient Homo Sapiens Sapiens could, just could, have originated in the region of the Iberian Peninsula.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2017 at 14:12
Vanuatu wrote
Quote Well intended yes but also a selfish component that allowed the rationale of the inferiority of native people to persist. Aborigines didn't have a modern world view but their intelligence and understanding of the world sustained them in nature and "Rabbit Proof Fence" explains that harmony and superiority over modern man's idea of what natives should be.  

A point to be noted here is that many Australian Aborigines still do not have a modern world view. Even their nearest genetic cousins, the Papua/New Guineans have progressed much further, even in their most basic cultural aspects.

In many ways, it would probably have been better if the white people had left the Aborigines totally alone, allowed them to fend for themselves as they always had done. But of course the humanitarian interests could not be ignored, they had to have help in health, education and so on. Unfortunately the bad elements of white culture also attached themselves, drinking alcohol, smoking, drug use and domestic violence.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.




Edited by toyomotor - 02 May 2017 at 16:56
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1841
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2017 at 13:43
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwrpBgTfsGQ

Thanks that was helpful. 

This link has the full length feature film "Rabbit Proof Fence" it's outstanding. 
true story of three aboriginal girls who are forcibly taken from their families in 1931 to be trained as domestic servants as part of an official Australian government policy.

Yes, they form what is now called "The Stolen Generation". But I don't think it's as evil as it may appear.

The situation was that the government of the day recognised that the Aboriginal people were not progressing towards equality with white people in education, employment, health etc.

They rounded up a number of children who were taken to homes where the girls could learn skills as cooking, sewing and as general house maids, while the boys learned how to be farm hands. It worked to Aboriginal advantage to a small degree, but, psychologically, it harmed a generation for life.

Some of the children were relocated to homes nearer to towns where they could receive an education. Again, it was successful only to a small degree, but it did set the scene where a small number of Aboriginal men rose to some of the highest levels of the professions in the country, such as in law and politics.

There have been a few misguided schemes aimed at helping Aboriginal people that have failed. An example quite often quoted is the case where the Federal Government went to Aboriginal Country, and built the tribe houses, simple but suitable for the conditions. Each family was provided with a new Toyota Land Cruiser and a Solar powered public telephone was installed for community use. Six months or so later, welfare workers visited the settlement, to find it deserted. The houses had all been trashed, walls and doors burnt in the front yard, motor vehicles derelict with wheels and tyres either missing or destroyed.

Somewhat alarmed, the welfare workers set out to find the tribe, and did so.They were camped on the banks of a river near a small town, living under humpys and drinking large quantities of alcohol. Young people were sniffing petrol or other accelerants.

That they had abandoned Country was inexplicable, but they still went walkabout when they wanted, but wouldn't live in the white built houses. A typical case of their culture still not accepting parts of the white culture.

Militant Aborigines play these misguided attempts to help them as deliberate harm inflicted by white fellas. Harm inflicted, possibly, but not deliberate.

But not all Aborigines are still nomadic, some have lived in small settlements for generations, or on cattle stations-and they're happy with their lot. Some have been absorbed into the white community with good results-others, not so good.


An example of an Aboriginal Humpy.

That's roughn' it.  I realize that the mindset of colonial and European powers led them to believe that native peoples needed saving. They needed religion, western clothing and western learning. 

Well intended yes but also a selfish component that allowed the rationale of the inferiority of native people to persist. Aborigines didn't have a modern world view but their intelligence and understanding of the world sustained them in nature and "Rabbit Proof Fence" explains that harmony and superiority over modern man's idea of what natives should be.   
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 18:28
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwrpBgTfsGQ

Thanks that was helpful. 

This link has the full length feature film "Rabbit Proof Fence" it's outstanding. 
true story of three aboriginal girls who are forcibly taken from their families in 1931 to be trained as domestic servants as part of an official Australian government policy.

Yes, they form what is now called "The Stolen Generation". But I don't think it's as evil as it may appear.

The situation was that the government of the day recognised that the Aboriginal people were not progressing towards equality with white people in education, employment, health etc.

They rounded up a number of children who were taken to homes where the girls could learn skills as cooking, sewing and as general house maids, while the boys learned how to be farm hands. It worked to Aboriginal advantage to a small degree, but, psychologically, it harmed a generation for life.

Some of the children were relocated to homes nearer to towns where they could receive an education. Again, it was successful only to a small degree, but it did set the scene where a small number of Aboriginal men rose to some of the highest levels of the professions in the country, such as in law and politics.

There have been a few misguided schemes aimed at helping Aboriginal people that have failed. An example quite often quoted is the case where the Federal Government went to Aboriginal Country, and built the tribe houses, simple but suitable for the conditions. Each family was provided with a new Toyota Land Cruiser and a Solar powered public telephone was installed for community use. Six months or so later, welfare workers visited the settlement, to find it deserted. The houses had all been trashed, walls and doors burnt in the front yard, motor vehicles derelict with wheels and tyres either missing or destroyed.

Somewhat alarmed, the welfare workers set out to find the tribe, and did so.They were camped on the banks of a river near a small town, living under humpys and drinking large quantities of alcohol. Young people were sniffing petrol or other accelerants.

That they had abandoned Country was inexplicable, but they still went walkabout when they wanted, but wouldn't live in the white built houses. A typical case of their culture still not accepting parts of the white culture.

Militant Aborigines play these misguided attempts to help them as deliberate harm inflicted by white fellas. Harm inflicted, possibly, but not deliberate.

But not all Aborigines are still nomadic, some have lived in small settlements for generations, or on cattle stations-and they're happy with their lot. Some have been absorbed into the white community with good results-others, not so good.


An example of an Aboriginal Humpy.


Edited by toyomotor - 30 Apr 2017 at 18:31
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1841
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 14:25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwrpBgTfsGQ

Thanks that was helpful. 

This link has the full length feature film "Rabbit Proof Fence" it's outstanding. 
true story of three aboriginal girls who are forcibly taken from their families in 1931 to be trained as domestic servants as part of an official Australian government policy.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2017 at 16:24
Vanuatu wrote
Quote I know the UK takes great care with historical and ancient landmarks. How do Australians rate the importance of preserving the culture of Aborigines and Walkabout?

1. That's difficult to answer because white people really don't know about or understand Aboriginal culture. When I was in Primary School (Grades 1-6) we had lessons on Aboriginal Culture, so I and others from my era and school have a pretty basic knowledge and understanding of the culture. As I said, basic. Because of the Aborigines nomadic life, not constructing buildings and not having a written language, the only knowledge of Aboriginal history etc is that which has been passed down by word of mouth. As some Aborigines shed their traditional lifestyle to become, unfortunately, drunken fringe dwellers, their culture is being lost in some cases. In the main, the only visible signs of past Aboriginal habitation are ancient petroglyphs and coastal middens.
Don't forget that the Australian Aborigine is the last Stone Age man still walking the earth. Where petroglyphs and middens are found, steps are usually taken to preserve them, but, because of their often remote nature, it's often not possible to protect them from the mindless idiots in society.

2. Walkabout, is, as the word implies, the act of walking about country, that is, the land which the particular Aboriginal community has roamed since time immemorial, "The Dream Time" which Aborigines call their ancient past, the time of the beginning. Aborigines, in general, have a very close affiliation with "country" which amounts to their ancient home land-notice not The Country but  Country. Some Aborigines on Mainland Australia, on the West Coast and the Far North, still adhere to many tribal traditions, including Walkabout. They simply pack up their meagre belongings and off they go. There is no pattern to their Walkabout and there is no set time for it to finish. They live on Bush Tucker, snakes, lizards, wichetty grubs, small animals, and if they're lucky (read skilful) enough, Kangaroo or Wallaby.

General:

Australian Aborigines never gathered in large groups like the plains Indians, their tribes are usually extended family groups. In some communities, the live by Tribal Law, which is really biblical. If you do something wrong, the tribal elders will dictate your punishment-a broken arm or leg, a spear to the leg or a good bashing. Banishment from the tribe is the last resort, and is often accompanied by a Singing by the Kadaitcha Man (Witch Doctor) which often results in death, regardless of where the offender is at the time. Aborigines who fall foul of White Mans Law and are sent to prison became the subject of a Royal Commission of Inquiry as the number of Aboriginal deaths in custody was causing alarm. Long story short-Aborigines taken away from Country for too long, simply lose the will to live, and die.

Most mainland Aborigines, including the Tiwi Islanders and the Torres Strait Islanders are offered education and are taught English at some stage in their youth, but for quite a number, English remains a second langauge.

In Tasmania, the last Aborigine died nearly 200 years ago. Their language and culture have been lost. There are a number of people who claim Tasmanian Aboriginal ancestry, but they are totally integrated into the white community and are, in the main, impossible to visually identify.

I don't beive that Australians are, generally, racist. We hold our Aboriginal sports men and women in the highest regard. On the large mainland cattle stations-ranches-which are often a million square miles or more, the Aboriginal Jackaroos (Cowboys-but not really) are renowned for their work ethic.




Edited by toyomotor - 29 Apr 2017 at 16:26
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1841
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2017 at 00:42
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu
Quote Thinking of the Australian natives, the mind swoons at the great expanse of time and mastery of man over his surroundings.

And to think, the last of our Aborigines to contact white people was in the mid 1960's. Many Aborigines still practice tribal traditions of Walkabout, which is what they call their nomadic way of life, living off  bush tucker, avoiding the trappings of white society.


I know the UK takes great care with historical and ancient landmarks. How do Australians rate the importance of preserving the culture of Aborigines and Walkabout? 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 15:43
Vanuatu
Quote Thinking of the Australian natives, the mind swoons at the great expanse of time and mastery of man over his surroundings.

And to think, the last of our Aborigines to contact white people was in the mid 1960's. Many Aborigines still practice tribal traditions of Walkabout, which is what they call their nomadic way of life, living off  bush tucker, avoiding the trappings of white society.

It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1841
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 11:59
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Well it was ever proved that either Neanderthals or Denisovans replaced a more advanced, hard working people, that could just open the door to how ancient man, in some cases, developed such advanced technologies, which were lost for many centuries.

Or is it all mumbo jumbo and our ancestors really were aliens?
Not to the scientific community as yet but of course before Leaky we knew nothing of Lucy. In the grand expanse of time, it seems more likely than not to me at least, that different models of humanity had been tried and risen or failed depending on... who knows how many factors and geological opportunities.

Thinking of the Australian natives, the mind swoons at the great expanse of time and mastery of man over his surroundings. Clever-doesn't begin to describe these 'Walkers' I tend to see the modern 'Us' as dimmer in the heart/soul and therefore losing true intelligence in modern times. We are too obsessed with 'items.' 

Edgar Cayce, Jane Roberts and others have introduced irresistible "possible pasts" Aliens may be the latest manifestation of a higher power.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 17:32
Well it was ever proved that either Neanderthals or Denisovans replaced a more advanced, hard working people, that could just open the door to how ancient man, in some cases, developed such advanced technologies, which were lost for many centuries.

Or is it all mumbo jumbo and our ancestors really were aliens?
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1841
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 14:10
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

From http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/
Quote

Incipient Mongoloids (or elusive Denisovans) 105-125kya in China?

The authors claim that these archaic humans from China show parallels to both modern eastern Eurasians (Mongoloids) and to Neandertals. The relationship with the Neandertals makes them prime candidates for the elusive Denisovans who were a sister group to Neandertals but are morphologically unknown (since all we've got is a genome, teeth, and a pinky). The relationship with Mongoloids suggest an appearance of Mongoloid morphology pre-dating the transition to sapiens, and brings to mind past claims about incipient Caucasoid morphology in Neandertals. Did aspects of modern Eurasian morphology originate in pre-sapiens archaic Eurasians? Hopefully someone's studying DNA from these crania as we speak. 

Science 03 Mar 2017: Vol. 355, Issue 6328, pp. 969-972 DOI: 10.1126/science.aal2482

So it could be that Denisovans predated Neanderthals, but survived long enough to breed with them, and possibly, with early Homo Sapiens.

The Denisovans and their "nuchal gracilization" seem to indicate a population that has less hard work and heavy lifting as opposed to the robust Neanderthal. Just to think of Denisovans and Neanderthals being displaced by CroMagnon begs the question 'who were the Neanderthals and Denisovans displacing?' 
Did Denisovans absorb a more advanced culture that allowed for less hard labor and resulted in the more gracile anatomy? 
Also think of Jakarta Man a gracile not far from the robust Aborigines of the Pleistocence /Holocene. There appears to be a fair comparison to the Neanderthal/Denisovan polarity.  


Edited by Vanuatu - 26 Apr 2017 at 14:12
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2017 at 16:38
From http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/
Quote

Incipient Mongoloids (or elusive Denisovans) 105-125kya in China?

The authors claim that these archaic humans from China show parallels to both modern eastern Eurasians (Mongoloids) and to Neandertals. The relationship with the Neandertals makes them prime candidates for the elusive Denisovans who were a sister group to Neandertals but are morphologically unknown (since all we've got is a genome, teeth, and a pinky). The relationship with Mongoloids suggest an appearance of Mongoloid morphology pre-dating the transition to sapiens, and brings to mind past claims about incipient Caucasoid morphology in Neandertals. Did aspects of modern Eurasian morphology originate in pre-sapiens archaic Eurasians? Hopefully someone's studying DNA from these crania as we speak. 

Science 03 Mar 2017: Vol. 355, Issue 6328, pp. 969-972 DOI: 10.1126/science.aal2482

So it could be that Denisovans predated Neanderthals, but survived long enough to breed with them, and possibly, with early Homo Sapiens.


Edited by toyomotor - 25 Apr 2017 at 16:40
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Online
Points: 3505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2017 at 10:16
Most mutations are detrimental to the survival of the organism.  Some, like sickle cell are beneficial in certain contexts (malaria) when they a recessive.  I worry about us trying to get rid of "disadvantageous" adoptions too much, without first understanding why they are there.  For example, Lincoln and Churchill were depressives, and obviously the right people in the right place at the right time.  Most people run away from a fire, but some people run towards a fire, wanting to help put it out, contain it.  That is usually manic behavior, but it is also an advantage for a community to have a few people around that are like that.  If you are in a platoon, you want to have a few people in there that have a controlled mania that will keep you alive, because of their extra vigilance, their endurance, their aggressiveness.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1841
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2017 at 13:01
Originally posted by Windemere Windemere wrote:

There's a small section on the male  Y-Chromosome that is non-recombinant ( meaning that it doesn't combine with the ordinary autosomal DNA). And so it is passed on from father to son in a pure state, and thus can be used to trace back a male lineage through all the generations.  

The same can be done with a female lineage through an entirely different process. Mitochondrial DNA exists outside the nucleus of the ova (the female sex cell), and thus it's also non-recombinant, and is passed on in a pure state from a mother to all of her children, both sons and daughters. But since it's passed on through the ova, only the daughters will pass it on to their own children. Thus a female lineage can also be traced through all the generations.

I'm not sure how this can be applied to learning if Neanderthal people contributed to the genome of modern humans, or to what extent, but it would be interesting to find out.
Hi Windemere,
It seems that the analysis of genes has produced evidence that Neanderthals contributed a resilience to some disease and introduced some pathogens as well.
Just a few short years ago everyone posited the theory that light skin resulted from Northern populations absorbing less vitamin D over time. The link explains that a new theory based on gene research has provided an accurate (to date) origin for this mutation. Now that the Neanderthal genome has been sequenced, Denisovans the eastern cousins, and their mysteries may begin to reveal themselves. 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1841
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2017 at 12:29
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

So, do we assume (very dangerous) that mutations caused the various phenotypes seen today?


It seems to be the consensus. Red hair is a mutation that we can see, I'm 100% sure that Colin Tudge (The Engineer in the Garden) attributes gene mutation as the origin of sickle cell anemia and cystic fibrosis.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
Windemere View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Location: U.S.A.
Status: Offline
Points: 309
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2017 at 23:29
There's a small section on the male  Y-Chromosome that is non-recombinant ( meaning that it doesn't combine with the ordinary autosomal DNA). And so it is passed on from father to son in a pure state, and thus can be used to trace back a male lineage through all the generations.  

The same can be done with a female lineage through an entirely different process. Mitochondrial DNA exists outside the nucleus of the ova (the female sex cell), and thus it's also non-recombinant, and is passed on in a pure state from a mother to all of her children, both sons and daughters. But since it's passed on through the ova, only the daughters will pass it on to their own children. Thus a female lineage can also be traced through all the generations.

I'm not sure how this can be applied to learning if Neanderthal people contributed to the genome of modern humans, or to what extent, but it would be interesting to find out.


Edited by Windemere - 06 Apr 2017 at 23:30
Dis Aliter Visum
"Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2017 at 20:01
So, do we assume (very dangerous) that mutations caused the various phenotypes seen today?

It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1841
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 12:43
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I'm currently looking for info on precisely what effect the presence of Neanderthal or Denisovan has on human DNA, as opposed to that DNA which has no other construct.

Doifferences in SNP's 
[quotesingle-nucleotide polymorphism, often abbreviated to SNP (/ˈsnɪp/; plural /ˈsnɪps/), is a variation in a single nucleotide that occurs at a specific position in the genome, where each variation is present to some appreciable degree within a population
from Wiki

These can, and do effects various phenotypes in the make up of individual. Changes are noticeable where there are mutations of the genetic mkeup-which lead to ultimate differences in HaploGroups.

Each HaploGroup results in differences, quite often very minor, in the human phenotype.
[/QUOTE]



Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 6>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.